Empower needs a nerf

Lumenn

KilianDermoth wrote: »

Lazy isn't really an insult in this context it's just the other extreme of sweaty, try hard, challenging or how you want to call it and I sometimes like to play lazy builds myself but compared to a heavy Attack oakesoul Ring even those aren't lazy. For me it's a normal word in this context do describe one extreme of a metric / scale of builds and the oakensoul heavy attack build is just the most extreme build in this regard.

But I am wondering if you are really serious that people get personally attacked if someone compares virtual items / builds with cheats or i win buttons. In all seriousness, are you really serious!? You said yourself it's just a video game, how can calling an item that literally allows to play a game half way on auto pilot, which it factually does, a cheat be an insult?

Or do you identify yourself with an in-game item / build of an video game?

Btw. as an older person that has probably also experienced older games and especially cheats in them, you probably know that some of those cheats still left some challenges (if it's not something Like God mode) while this ring combined with such build just removes a big chunk of the combat and allows to skip it, exactly like a chat / I win button would do.

Whoo, where to start? Actually semantics count. Reinforcing repeatedly that using an oakensoul build is a lazy build, is a cheat, is the same as an I win button and something you personally wouldn't do even when you only had one hand because you need a REAL challenge could easily be interpreted as condensending. Do I identify with the game? Not personally but there are those that do. I'm old enough to say casual gameplay instead of lazy gameplay. Lazy in all my decades has never been a complimentary description of anything. But if it's a word you like and isn't derogatory to you? Well I'll just leave that alone and assume it's my age and corporate background.

Most of what you're posting SEEMINGLY boils down to oakensoul shouldn't exist because everyone should be as good as you are at pushing a sequence of buttons repeatedly to reach the desired dps. Correct me if I'm wrong. Judging by the responses on this thread alone that isn't the only view out there, and no matter how awesome your button pushing skills are, it won't convince others to do it if they don't want to. I know you worked hard at it, many of us did as well.

PERSONALLY, I'm happy with it. I'm seeing new people (and old, who never wanted or could practice la weaves) get into content they couldn't. You've read of others that are happy to be teaching new trial groups. I(and others like me) can play longer with our oak builds before our hands begin to sing(I have 2 builds out of 10 using it) overall it's been good for the game, and I'd like to see more advances like this. La weave should not be the only stopgap way to break out of overland questing. And until now it's been the only viable way. It's boring, it's hard(or impossible) for many with physical and technical issues (despite your helpful suggestion that zos just recode THE WHOLE GAME so that someone could dump oakensoul and la weave, until they do so, tech issues exist, and are valid) as someone else who has spent the time learning to weave I'm happy that others have a choice. They'll never do top dps, but they'll be just fine.

KilianDermoth

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

So it's not anyone that can reach 70k with one button, it's anyone with the right build, or skills or race? Is that right?

No, one case isn't enough to prove it false neither is one case enough to prove it true. Hence my comment about the *majority* being about to reach 70k with one button. Until that is true there is no case for change.

You are mixing stuff. Yes it's anyone who can reach 80k+ just by holding down a single button, but it's not any build that can does it, it's about specific builds.

Otherwise one could discuss a build with white gear, incomplete buffs, No mundus, no leveled passives or on other words a non functional build. Such a build won't reach good damage, too. So if you do something wrong with a build it won't perform well, no matter what. Also you can always do a worse build until you are completely naked without any skills and any buffs. Does it make sense to discuss the worst possible build? Not really...

Still anyone can theoretically just copy a working / optimized build and do 80k+ just by holding down a single button.

Because anyone != any build. 2 different words with 2 different meanings.

And to prove statements like deals max x amount of damage you ever needed a single case that does prove it wrong by showing that something does more than x damage. Because then x can by definition not be the possible max, because a max is defined as that nothing can be bigger than it. It is how proofs in math or science ever worked. It even has a name and is called: Proof by Contraposition. Google it up if you want to learn something new.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

KilianDermoth

[snip]

Also it iwas a 80k+ one button comment and a 100k+ one bar comment, I never said myself it is 100k with one button. Thats for example such a insinuation I was talking about. And if I really did, quote, I might have mistyped something (which sometimes happen, because I am not always 100% focused when typeing forum posts).

Its btw. not insulting to me that oakensoul exist but I dont want to deal with people explaining them in the future that theire build wont be good in any really difficult content for example. Look at some other topics in this forum, this already happens. To avoid it, ZOS could dumb down content to a degree where the oakensoul damage is enough or make such builds even better (maybe we are even at that point already).

But this would literally lead to a game where its pointless to use something else and you could do anything by using such lazy build and putting any effort in something else would be a complete waste. This literally would lead to an interactive (bad) movie at best and at worst to an absolute irrelevant and boring game. I really hope that this will never happen, because it would destroy the game in my opinion as a game, exactly as a I win button or cheats would do.

And yes I already had games where I started to cheat, had a short burst of fun and never touched that game again.

Also I am no one that absolutely enjoys light attack weaving as it is now, btw. I would like changes (the comment about the queueing / adding tolerances of light attacks would fix it in my opinion and make it more accessible without removeing ceiling / improvement completely). Also I would weclome if the difference between worst and best gets reduced but not by literally destroying a core game mechanic (the combat system).

[edited for baiting]

Kalterran

For most RPGs, collecting all the kit, levelling up experience and learning how to do damage is the improvement that seems to be talked about so much. Most heavy attack users that are doing decent damage have done this to get there.

And again, being able to do damage is not a magic cheat button; players still need to learn mechanics, and when I raid lead trials and dungeons, I see people from both light attack and heavy attack builds wiping over and over because of standing in the wrong place, being hit by two mechanics at the same time, not dodge-rolling or blocking at the right moment, and it takes people a while to learn the mechanics of a place regardless of whether they are light attack or heavy attack.

Some people enjoy rapid and complex button press rotation that requires practice and concentration. And fair play, because it is more complex it is reasonable that the DPS is a little higher, which it is at 120-130k. But there should be no expectation that heavy attack users must "improve" to light attack use if they do not enjoy that playstyle.

Some people enjoy a more gentle rhythm, and heavy attack weaving it totally a thing to get the DPS of a heavy attack build higher. And for people who enjoy that rhythm, it should totally be a viable playstyle even for veteran content, and has been for the vast majority of the game. The old DK builds got 50% increase from Molten, and 40% from empower, which was even higher than the current empower for everyone.

If you like button mashing: button mash. If you like gentle heavy attacks: heavy attack. I disagree with people who hate LA weaving and call for it to be removed from the game, because many people enjoy the fast action it provides. I disagree with people who call for heavy attack builds to be nerfed because they find them boring or are jealous that others can do better damage than they can, because clearly many people enjoy this playstyle. Both styles should be able to do all content in the game.

I think ZOS has totally got the balance right just now: HA 75k up to 100k DPS for weaving. LA 120-130k DPS.

MidniteOwl1913

KilianDermoth wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

So it's not anyone that can reach 70k with one button, it's anyone with the right build, or skills or race? Is that right?

No, one case isn't enough to prove it false neither is one case enough to prove it true. Hence my comment about the *majority* being about to reach 70k with one button. Until that is true there is no case for change.

You are mixing stuff. Yes it's anyone who can reach 80k+ just by holding down a single button, but it's not any build that can does it, it's about specific builds.

Otherwise one could discuss a build with white gear, incomplete buffs, No mundus, no leveled passives or on other words a non functional build. Such a build won't reach good damage, too. So if you do something wrong with a build it won't perform well, no matter what. Also you can always do a worse build until you are completely naked without any skills and any buffs. Does it make sense to discuss the worst possible build? Not really...

Still anyone can theoretically just copy a working / optimized build and do 80k+ just by holding down a single button.

Because anyone != any build. 2 different words with 2 different meanings.

And to prove statements like deals max x amount of damage you ever needed a single case that does prove it wrong by showing that something does more than x damage. Because then x can by definition not be the possible max, because a max is defined as that nothing can be bigger than it. It is how proofs in math or science ever worked. It even has a name and is called: Proof by Contraposition. Google it up if you want to learn something new.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Okay, I'm game, literally, what build? My sticker book is mostly full. Tell me what it is and I'll give it a try. I did BTW try this last night on my Sorc. I have Sargents Mail and Orders Wrath and Slimeclaw.

I 2 trials one with just "hold the single button" one with my normal rotation on the trial dummy, the 3m skeleton, and on my favorite easy peasy world boss.

So with one button, 55k on the trial dummy, 25k on the skeleton, and surprisingly I couldn't actually kill the WB by just holding down the one button... ;-)

My regular, 68k on the trial, 34k on the skeleton and 33k against the WB. Needless to say I won't be moving to the one-button method any time soon.

Regardless, unless there are enough people using the one-button method to cause a problem, then my take is "if it's not broken don't fix it".

Another note, it had been a very long time since I had run any test with the trial dummy (I tried it when I first set up my one-bar build that was awhile ago). I don't run trials and found my 3mil skeleton fine for dummy testing so I was surprised at how very useless it is in evaluating DPS in non-trial content. Good to know. So even if the average user could hit 90k on the trial dummy, big whoop.

Jeejee

If it is possible to meet EVERY dps requirement in the game by just holding down one button, something is VERY wrong with the game. Nothing feels rewarding anymore when you know it could be done with one button. NOTHING is an achievement anymore

Hyperdeathstalker

You cant meet every dps check in the game with one button, 80k plus with just heavy attack is only under super optimal conditions which are not realistic for most players. A basic run of the mill heavy attack build will only hit around 80-90 with a reasonable rotation, so by just holding down heavy attack will be certainly not overpowered in a trial scenerio or vet dungeon.

Also but saying nothing is an achievement anymore is also rubbish, dps is only half the battle, you still need to have situational awareness and deal with mechanics which in its self can be challenging

JJMaxx1980

Jeejee wrote: »

If it is possible to meet EVERY dps requirement in the game by just holding down one button, something is VERY wrong with the game. Nothing feels rewarding anymore when you know it could be done with one button. NOTHING is an achievement anymore

As someone who has used this build extensively and also tested it I can tell you that most of the people posting in this thread are not informed on how the build works or its limitations. It is not just ‘hold one button’ and get 100k. Not even 80k. Closer to 70k. Sure that’s a lot for just heavy attacking but you’re not gonna be allowed in any veteran trials with such low DPS. Getting 100k is not easy, it requires a perfect gold setup with high CP and a clean rotation, using all your skills with near-perfect weaving. This build is in a perfect place because it has a hard ceiling and high floor. You will never match the DPS of even a mediocre 2 bar player. That’s the trade-off. Yes you have an easier rotation but you’re capped at 95-99k. Most competent MagSorc players I know using the meta setup are hitting 120k+. I think the current record for DPS is like 140k or something. I don’t know why everyone is upset about a mid-tier accessibility-based play style that does 30% less damage than the current meta. I think it’s a perfect balance and exactly what ZOS was aiming for in its combat design.

jecks33

JJMaxx1980 wrote: »

I don’t know why everyone is upset about a mid-tier accessibility-based play style that does 30% less damage than the current meta. I think it’s a perfect balance and exactly what ZOS was aiming for in its combat design.

IMHO because with their 2 bar LA rotations they reach less dps than a HA build. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Dragonredux

Tbh the Empower buff was a panic change anyways since it was a week 4 change.

HA builds has been a thing for a while now anyways. Just everyone and their mother is flocking towards it now since it's on Oakensoul now.

Granted as a pre u35 HA user, I'm just enjoying my buff before ZoS nerfs us again since it's getting popular and I've been burned too many times already to know how their combat changes work.

JJMaxx1980

In the U35 Combat Preview, the Devs said the following:

“However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can. While this is partially unavoidable and an important part of what makes the mastery of ESO or any activity utilizing a similar system particularly satisfying, we want to do what we can to shorten that delta. The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve. To this end, we’ve started to look at the impact that one of the most common and important forms of weaving has in ESO: Light and Heavy Attack weaving.”

The devs specifically wanted to close the gap between the low and high end and now people are upset that the low end is too close to the high end for ‘players who cannot interact with it as effectively’.

They effectively lowered the gap while still allowing those with higher skill thresholds to be higher in damage. It’s perfectly balanced.

If ZOS nerfs the Heavy Attack play style, it would run counter to their own stated goals for combat in ESO. They would revert the combat system back to what it was previously where only the select few would be able to interact with a large percentage of content.

MudcrabAttack

No thanks to a nerf,

I know plenty of people that have been trying for years to get better and they hit a plateau with the light attack builds. With heavy attack buffs they like playing and filling the role now.

If anything the backlash is showing just how underrated ranged builds have been. And I haven’t seen any Oakensoul 2H builds.

robpr

I believe we had this discussion already in the past when pet sorcs pressing like 3-4 skills and HA had the same dps as magblades doing triple the effort. Oh well.

My only concern is that now you cannot make any significant changes to the item, buffs or heavy attacks at all, otherwise everything will go crash and burn (remember Blood Moon WW berserkers?). What if ZoS decide one day that bonus damage to HA affects only fully-charged HA pulse (channel ticks not affected), the total DPS will plummet. Notice that all HA builds use only Lightning staves because of that. What if Empower or Berserk value gets lowered? What if Sergeant/Storm Master value gonna change? LA builds will adapt simply changing skills or weapon. Any change that will directly or indirectly change lightning staff HA will have drastic results.

Hyperdeathstalker

Heavy attack builds still require rotation and timing to achieve higher end dps same as light attack builds and due to it being easier the dps is lower is accordance with this. I cannot see a positive outcome nerfing heavy attack setups apart from cheering up entitled top end players which make up a small percent of game population. I think breaking the 100k barrier is seen as entering elite territory which belittles sweaty button smashing rotations with 2 trillion light attacks rip controller ...

boi_anachronism_

I mean I don't think it needs a nerf per say. If people want to play like that it really doesn't affect me. I enjoy my double bar but not everyone does and that's fine. I'm glad empower is restricted from pvp for sure but I do wish that it gave some buff to LA as well. Maybe 30-40% to LA instead of 80% that HA gets. It makes skills that utilize empower useless for LA builds completely but that's just my opinion.

Gentleslash

Call me lazy, but I couldn't learn to LA weave and animation cancel properly. I didn't want to be carried, so decided not to queue for dungeons.

The HA build allowed me to start doing dungeons. If the intention of the devs was to introduce more players to group content - mission accomplished.

It's not like you sign up and get a HA build overnight. You still need SP, CP, sets, crafting, scrying, etc. like any other build.

boi_anachronism_

Gentleslash wrote: »

Call me lazy, but I couldn't learn to LA weave and animation cancel properly. I didn't want to be carried, so decided not to queue for dungeons.

The HA build allowed me to start doing dungeons. If the intention of the devs was to introduce more players to group content - mission accomplished.

It's not like you sign up and get a HA build overnight. You still need SP, CP, sets, crafting, scrying, etc. like any other build.

I think HA builds should absolutely be viable. You can definitely hit 80k with em and I think that's perfectly fine. You may not be doing vet trial trifectas but you can absolutely beat all regular vet content with them and most trifecta dungeons. Personally I think that's a good thing. I want more folks in group content not less and if they are competent with their build thats 1000% fine by me.

Finedaible

I don't even care about the PvE aspect of the Empower rework, I'm just mad they didn't bother to compensate affected skills on the PvP side of things. Ambush, for example, is back to square one at being useless in PvP right after they had buffed it to try and make it relevant in PvP again. They really should make that gap closer instant like literally any other gap closer in the game because it's not worth using in pvp again.

Jeejee

The difference in effort between heavy attack builds and 2bar rotation builds is massive, so the difference in dps should reflect to that better. But currently the dps increase with 2bar build is so small and there are no dps checks that need it, so its a complete waste of effort to do anything but hold down the left mouse button. And the fact everyone is switching to heavy attack builds because of this literally screams for a nerf

xNepo

Kalterran wrote: »

If you like button mashing: button mash. If you like gentle heavy attacks: heavy attack. I disagree with people who hate LA weaving and call for it to be removed from the game, because many people enjoy the fast action it provides. I disagree with people who call for heavy attack builds to be nerfed because they find them boring or are jealous that others can do better damage than they can, because clearly many people enjoy this playstyle. Both styles should be able to do all content in the game.

Thank you. I totally support your play ethics/mindset.

boi_anachronism_

Exactly why do people care? If they aren't part of your team does it really matter? I don't understand. If you don't want them in your prog just say you have to be competent with a 2 bar build and let that be the end of it?

jaws343

robpr wrote: »

I believe we had this discussion already in the past when pet sorcs pressing like 3-4 skills and HA had the same dps as magblades doing triple the effort. Oh well.

My only concern is that now you cannot make any significant changes to the item, buffs or heavy attacks at all, otherwise everything will go crash and burn (remember Blood Moon WW berserkers?). What if ZoS decide one day that bonus damage to HA affects only fully-charged HA pulse (channel ticks not affected), the total DPS will plummet. Notice that all HA builds use only Lightning staves because of that. What if Empower or Berserk value gets lowered? What if Sergeant/Storm Master value gonna change? LA builds will adapt simply changing skills or weapon. Any change that will directly or indirectly change lightning staff HA will have drastic results.

I think most heavy attack builds use lightning staves because they make the use of heavy attacks easier.

They lock on to a target more reliably than a fire heavy. You can't miss with them at all unless the target moves out of range or line of sight. They do splash damage, which makes them great against multiple targets. They buff AOE damage, which is the majority of your damage in a heavy attack build if you are trying to make the build as user friendly as possible.

Up until the heavy attacks issues in the Deadlands DLC, I was even using lightning staves on my solo, light attack weaving build, because the reliability of a heavy attack for resources, and the AOE advantage for trash pulls, was more useful than the single target damage increase of a flame staff.

Luth

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Can we get at least some utility back for PvP? They stripped the ability from that side of the game completely without a second thought.

That's my main problem with it too. Regardless if 80% damage to heavy attacks is currently too high/low/encouraging lazy play/whatever, the "PvE only" part is objectively bad game design. It could get anything else in PvP (eg only 40% damage to heavy attacks, or anything else). It is even worse when considering that there are some morphs that only add empower to the base ability; what a choice for PvP.

The tooltip ("Increases damage against monsters") is bad too. To the average new player, "monster" doesn't necessarily mean PvE only.

RedRoomGaming

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

No.

After U35 I believe we have all suffered enough nerfs for a while.

If you don't like empower don't use it.

Is empower the heavy attack set? Sorry slow internet here so cannot search

MidniteOwl1913

RedRoomGaming wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

No.

After U35 I believe we have all suffered enough nerfs for a while.

If you don't like empower don't use it.

Is empower the heavy attack set? Sorry slow internet here so cannot search

Yes (I guess), empower with a HA gives you 80% increase in damage against "monsters".