Heal + Block Stacking Too Strong in Cryodiil

Firstmep · April 2021

Kwoung wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I provided one example and half of these replies are trollish snarks trying to make this about soul assault. Anyone in Cyrodiil right now if they're being honest sees how a select number of OP classes are way over performing because they have access to a big burst heal AND they can bump blue cp into healing and not lose any ability to kill.

It's not enjoyable for a 12 man group to get wiped by a 4 man templar group. And before someone tries to take a swipe I only run in comp groups. I still happens because the immortal templar, warden, and sorc builds you can go watch on youtube right now are running all over the rest of the classes.

Honestly, not being snarky, but target selection is a thing. You probably would have destroyed me on my MagPlar or StamPlar alts, because I kinda suck at playing them. But for someone that knows their class cold and has good reactions, anyone can be a very formidable foe. 3v1 doesn't guarantee a win by any means, I have seen more lose to 1 on many occasions.

I think the point he was trying to drive home is that block healing is too powerful.
As annoying rolly polly nightblades are, dodgeroll does have its counters with hard hitting aoes, and it's up to you to land those, so there is counterplay and an element of skill.
Lot of ppl also use roots to try to force opponents to dodgeroll to specifically land those.
With block the problem is, you can hold it for insane amounts of time, mitigates a ton of dmg, and most dmg that goes thru is just too weak right now.
His example was kinda memeish, but the point is still valid.
Just the other day I was in cyro on my magden getting tier 1, and I had a nice little 1v7, when blocking and rotating Arctic blast and trellis kept me alive and my opponents had next to no chance to take me down. Sure they weren't good players, but I could've used the same strategy aganist a really skilled opponent in a 1v1.
And before anyone says that x stun goes thru block, yeah it doesn't matter you just break free and go back to turtling.
But the biggest issue here, is the amount of investment into this playstyle is usually very minimal, meaning you can still have a build that dishes out big dmg while also being able to turtle this hard.
With dodgerolling, due to the gradual cost increase, you actually want to invest into wearing wellfitted gear etc if you want to keep dodging for prolonged amounts of time, with block you really don't have to.

I remember back in the day when bleeds used to ignore resistances and do actual damage, you could punish for example permablocking dks super hard, especially if they were building lots of sturdy pieces for example.
You really can do that anymore, at least not without procsets as most skill based dots simply aren't doing enough damage anymore. On top of that the 2 dlc classes also have a built in purge, so it's even harder to punish them for it.
I'm not sure what Zos could do here.
Its unlikely that blocking will ever get any serious nerf, since pve tanks will burn this forum to the ground if Zos tries it, and pvp balance hasn't ever been a particularly high priority for the devs.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

On top of that the 2 dlc classes also have a built in purge, so it's even harder to punish them for it.
I'm not sure what Zos could do here.

Remove the purge entirely from Warden, and increase the health cost for Hexproof. Off the top of my head I can't recall if you have to drop block to cast Renewing Undeath, but I don't think this one is much of an issue regarding self-purging. This means we're in a MagPlar meta if DoTs get buffed to the level some of us would like, but you know. We'll complain about that then. Curative Curse is a really strong passive in this realm too, but whatever, Necro's only practical HP-scaled heal is corpse-dependent.

Firstmep · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

On top of that the 2 dlc classes also have a built in purge, so it's even harder to punish them for it.
I'm not sure what Zos could do here.

Remove the purge entirely from Warden, and increase the health cost for Hexproof. Off the top of my head I can't recall if you have to drop block to cast Renewing Undeath, but I don't think this one is much of an issue regarding self-purging. This means we're in a MagPlar meta if DoTs get buffed to the level some of us would like, but you know. We'll complain about that then. Curative Curse is a really strong passive in this realm too, but whatever, Necro's only practical HP-scaled heal is corpse-dependent.

I mean extended ritual is pretty expensive already let's be real.
But I'd be down to some purge protection mechanic.
Ofc proc sets would have to be addressed first, or wewill just have everyone run around in zaan and vate destro(which is already the case for bgs anyway).

Urzigurumash · April 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

Ofc proc sets would have to be addressed first, or wewill just have everyone run around in zaan and vate destro(which is already the case for bgs anyway).

I don't think either of those are purgeable, as members of the Beam family along with Radiant Oppression and Soul Assault, but maybe they are now. Point taken though, for sure Venomous Smite, Oblivion's Foe, etc. would see more use.

Joy_Division · April 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I provided one example and half of these replies are trollish snarks trying to make this about soul assault. Anyone in Cyrodiil right now if they're being honest sees how a select number of OP classes are way over performing because they have access to a big burst heal AND they can bump blue cp into healing and not lose any ability to kill.

It's not enjoyable for a 12 man group to get wiped by a 4 man templar group. And before someone tries to take a swipe I only run in comp groups. I still happens because the immortal templar, warden, and sorc builds you can go watch on youtube right now are running all over the rest of the classes.

If your 12 is getting wiped by 4 Templars, that is about [snip] issue I have read in seven years on these forums.

[edited for baiting]

Firstmep · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Ofc proc sets would have to be addressed first, or wewill just have everyone run around in zaan and vate destro(which is already the case for bgs anyway).

I don't think either of those are purgeable, as members of the Beam family along with Radiant Oppression and Soul Assault, but maybe they are now. Point taken though, for sure Venomous Smite, Oblivion's Foe, etc. would see more use.

Radiant is purgeable, vate isn't, as for zaan, I usually have too much *** on me to notice.

DrSlaughtr · April 2021

Next time I won't offer any examples. I'll just state the concern, which is a valid criticism. This is a rampant issue on XB.

Thraben · April 2021

Is this a Nerf Radial Sweep thread?

Now I've seen everything.

xDeusEJRx · April 2021

Heals are really strong now but they work as a hard counter to bursts/dots. If they were able to block and outheal that damage good for them honestly. But nerfing heals would be going backwards, because since damage is so high, the same should be for heals. Imagine going around getting hit with 15k incaps and your counter to that is an 8k crit heal or lower, you're most likely going to die without being able to put a fighting chance. I run double damage sets on my magplar and can crit heal for 14k-15k, so I'd say that's a pretty good counter to an incoming 15k incap. If he could heal through your damage, he just probably has higher stats to allow his heals to hit for more than what you could put out

Faded · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

If your 12 is getting wiped by 4 Templars, that is about [snip] issue I have read in seven years on these forums.

An AD templar [snip] handed me my ass a couple weeks ago: clearly templars are overtuned. It's the only possible explanation.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

DrSlaughtr · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I provided one example and half of these replies are trollish snarks trying to make this about soul assault. Anyone in Cyrodiil right now if they're being honest sees how a select number of OP classes are way over performing because they have access to a big burst heal AND they can bump blue cp into healing and not lose any ability to kill.

It's not enjoyable for a 12 man group to get wiped by a 4 man templar group. And before someone tries to take a swipe I only run in comp groups. I still happens because the immortal templar, warden, and sorc builds you can go watch on youtube right now are running all over the rest of the classes.

If your 12 is getting wiped by 4 Templars, that is about as big of a L2P issue I have read in seven years on these forums.

Actually, no. They were good. So were we. But all of them were equiped with blessed, focused mending, and reaving blows awhile block casting puncturing sweep which also heals.

Then they all cast an ultimate (radial) that only costs 75 but dealt 15k+ on death recap.

Firstmep · April 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I provided one example and half of these replies are trollish snarks trying to make this about soul assault. Anyone in Cyrodiil right now if they're being honest sees how a select number of OP classes are way over performing because they have access to a big burst heal AND they can bump blue cp into healing and not lose any ability to kill.

It's not enjoyable for a 12 man group to get wiped by a 4 man templar group. And before someone tries to take a swipe I only run in comp groups. I still happens because the immortal templar, warden, and sorc builds you can go watch on youtube right now are running all over the rest of the classes.

If your 12 is getting wiped by 4 Templars, that is about as big of a L2P issue I have read in seven years on these forums.

Actually, no. They were good. So were we. But all of them were equiped with blessed, focused mending, and reaving blows awhile block casting puncturing sweep which also heals.

Then they all cast an ultimate (radial) that only costs 75 but dealt 15k+ on death recap.

Block casting puncturing sweeps? That's a skill I haven't mastered in 7 years of playing Templar, care to let me on the secret?

Kartalin · April 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

block casting puncturing sweep which also heals.

Just finished lecturing for the day so I'm a little tired to be snarky. I will be truthful instead.

1) You cannot block cast a channeled ability, blocking will just cancel it mid cast.
2) the heals from puncturing sweep have never saved anyone's life in cyrodiil in at least 5 years.

Joy_Division · April 2021

Faded wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

If your 12 is getting wiped by 4 Templars, that is about as big of a L2P issue I have read in seven years on these forums.

An AD templar [snip] handed me my ass a couple weeks ago: clearly templars are overtuned. It's the only possible explanation.

[snip]

I see what you did there

"TheEndBringer wrote:

Actually, no. They were good. So were we. But all of them were equiped with blessed, focused mending, and reaving blows awhile block casting puncturing sweep which also heals.

Then they all cast an ultimate (radial) that only costs 75 but dealt 15k+ on death recap.

[snip] Sweeps can not be block cast.

[edited for baiting]

DrSlaughtr · April 2021

[snip]

I'm well aware that sweep is a channel and while it's channeling you're not blocking. But when they're animation cancelling, you know, hitting block...

Sweep on repeat, then block cast heal to 100 when needed. It's easy mode. I've run my magplar using the same setup and it's stupidly easy.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Daemonai · April 2021

So I have a question: why didn't you block his 15k Radial Sweep the same way he blocked your Soul Assault or were you all so shocked he didn't die from your stealth ultimate dump that you forgot how to play entirely?

While I don't dispute that some things in this game are OP, this sounds like a classic example of being outplayed and lacking game knowledge. The fact you thought your 100k tooltip meant anything or that jabs could be blockcast emphasizes that point.

maxjapank · April 2021

Daemonai wrote: »

So I have a question: why didn't you block his 15k Radial Sweep the same way he blocked your Soul Assault or were you all so shocked he didn't die from your stealth ultimate dump that you forgot how to play entirely?

While I don't dispute that some things in this game are OP, this sounds like a classic example of being outplayed and lacking game knowledge. The fact you thought your 100k tooltip meant anything or that jabs could be blockcast emphasizes that point.

I’d like to see a screenshot of this 15k Radial Sweep and know how much resistance he has. Could this Radial be the initial dmg along with all the ticks after...combined? I’ve done a few close to 10k initial hit before. But I’ve also done quite a few Surprise Attacks close to 10k, which isn’t even an ultimate and has no cast time. But not 15k.

$spacefracking$ · April 2021

Heavy armor should lower damage output. It's for tanks, not damage dealers.

Firstmep · April 2021

maxjapank wrote: »

Daemonai wrote: »

So I have a question: why didn't you block his 15k Radial Sweep the same way he blocked your Soul Assault or were you all so shocked he didn't die from your stealth ultimate dump that you forgot how to play entirely?

While I don't dispute that some things in this game are OP, this sounds like a classic example of being outplayed and lacking game knowledge. The fact you thought your 100k tooltip meant anything or that jabs could be blockcast emphasizes that point.

I’d like to see a screenshot of this 15k Radial Sweep and know how much resistance he has. Could this Radial be the initial dmg along with all the ticks after...combined? I’ve done a few close to 10k initial hit before. But I’ve also done quite a few Surprise Attacks close to 10k, which isn’t even an ultimate and has no cast time. But not 15k.

I've hit 15k crescent before, but it was on a pve player with no resistances or impen back when you could have 0.
Im guessing he runs a glass cannon build, and just expects to get kills from stealth.

KhajiitLivesMatter · April 2021

spacefracking wrote: »

Heavy armor should lower damage output. It's for tanks, not damage dealers.

a while ago heavy did buff ur dmg so just keep it as it is its balanced

Mr_Gallows · April 2021

The passive health regen you can get is just game breaking. It should be capped around 2k at least or just during combat. Even just 2k is a lot, but it balances well with dots.

KhajiitLivesMatter · April 2021

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

The passive health regen you can get is just game breaking. It should be capped around 2k at least or just during combat. Even just 2k is a lot, but it balances well with dots.

thats kinda true
i have a build with 4,5k health reg and what did i sacrafice for it ? 1 red cp slot
cause i play a sorc there the ult only drains 30 at a time === i have so fkng much life reg and good dmg

Mr_Gallows · April 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Mr_Gallows wrote: »

The passive health regen you can get is just game breaking. It should be capped around 2k at least or just during combat. Even just 2k is a lot, but it balances well with dots.

thats kinda true
i have a build with 4,5k health reg and what did i sacrafice for it ? 1 red cp slot
cause i play a sorc there the ult only drains 30 at a time === i have so fkng much life reg and good dmg

If the only place you could get health regen from was the red CP, it would be fine. Or if regens simply capped at 2k, so you had a choice of where to get it when building. The current regen rates are just game breaking for all three stats 2k hard cap and then only skills can add to that... not sets, procs etc. If anything it would add more build diversity and more importantly better gameplay balance.

Also when people post x-build video of something unkillable... healt regen is very clearly there when you watch the gameplay. Health regen unbalances everyone exploiting it currently.

DrSlaughtr · April 2021

For the record buffed my residences are both over 20k.

Its kinda hard to block a radial sweep since it's kinda instantaneous unless you're already blocking, which you can't if you're channeling soul or toxic.

I'm here to talk about how easy it is for some classes to get massive health regen while sacrificing little. If any of you don't think that's a concern I respectfully disagree.

Firstmep · April 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

For the record buffed my residences are both over 20k.

Its kinda hard to block a radial sweep since it's kinda instantaneous unless you're already blocking, which you can't if you're channeling soul or toxic.

I'm here to talk about how easy it is for some classes to get massive health regen while sacrificing little. If any of you don't think that's a concern I respectfully disagree.

Radial sweep has a cast time like a lot of other ults.
It used to be instant, now the damage only happens when the caster finishes he circling motion above their head.
It's actually one of the easier ults to read.

DrSlaughtr · April 2021

Cast time is .4 seconds but okay.

DrSlaughtr · April 2021

Theignson wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Ever since CP 2.0 group players have figured out how to save the tank meta while still being able to output high damage.

For example, templars. As someone who used to main a magplar it's nice to see them and their stam brothers in arms doing so well.

But the game working as intended shouldn't create importal characters.

Here's an example that happened last night.

Three stamblades hit a magplar with 3 soul assaults. We all run the same build. Buffed up our soul assaults do over 100k damage in the tooltip.

The magplar went to their sword and board, blocked, and healed through all of it, then hit us with a 15k radial sweep.

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

I'm not a nerf advocate. But things do need to be balanced before they even think about bringing back procs. If players can out heal that now, imagine if they were wearing crimson or thews.

On a related note I think the duration of some poisons should be increased, such as resource drain. Many players have figured out how to never really run out of resources which adds to the above issue.

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

The whole point was to talk about how easy it is to turn certain classes into nigh immortals unless significantly out numbered which is not a balanced system. If you disagree that there's an issue then say that. [snip] There are plenty of people in this thread confirming what I'm talking about.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

madmidwestmark · April 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Ever since CP 2.0 group players have figured out how to save the tank meta while still being able to output high damage.

For example, templars. As someone who used to main a magplar it's nice to see them and their stam brothers in arms doing so well.

But the game working as intended shouldn't create importal characters.

Here's an example that happened last night.

Three stamblades hit a magplar with 3 soul assaults. We all run the same build. Buffed up our soul assaults do over 100k damage in the tooltip.

The magplar went to their sword and board, blocked, and healed through all of it, then hit us with a 15k radial sweep.

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

I'm not a nerf advocate. But things do need to be balanced before they even think about bringing back procs. If players can out heal that now, imagine if they were wearing crimson or thews.

On a related note I think the duration of some poisons should be increased, such as resource drain. Many players have figured out how to never really run out of resources which adds to the above issue.

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

The whole point was to talk about how easy it is to turn certain classes into nigh immortals unless significantly out numbered which is not a balanced system. If you disagree that there's an issue then say that. [snip] There are plenty of people in this thread confirming what I'm talking about.

Sounds like they blocked in light armor with s&b, you and the homies weren't running mirage/blur/phantasmal, didn't use a shadow ability for the armor and then got hit with a crit while having very low crit resist. If you just had 1 of you use gap close (ambush), incap, fear while the others were using soul assault, you'd have burned him down fast. NB and sorc are finesse classes, DK, warden and templar are brawler classes. They are easier to play head to head in open combat typically. The merciless resolve and other morph can hit hard, plus incap for the extra damage bonus. Try that with a bow/dw setup and you'll probably kill more people. Nb has a much higher skill ceiling and is much more powerful than templar/warden/dk when in the right hands. Sorc's could be more of an issue because shields get so big. By the time you get mitigation and healing high in a temp/dk/warden, you are losing damage. There is a trade off there since you have to slot many of the healing cp tree healing buffs.

ZOS_ConnorG · April 2021

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DrSlaughtr · April 2021

madmidwestmark wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Ever since CP 2.0 group players have figured out how to save the tank meta while still being able to output high damage.

For example, templars. As someone who used to main a magplar it's nice to see them and their stam brothers in arms doing so well.

But the game working as intended shouldn't create importal characters.

Here's an example that happened last night.

Three stamblades hit a magplar with 3 soul assaults. We all run the same build. Buffed up our soul assaults do over 100k damage in the tooltip.

The magplar went to their sword and board, blocked, and healed through all of it, then hit us with a 15k radial sweep.

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

I'm not a nerf advocate. But things do need to be balanced before they even think about bringing back procs. If players can out heal that now, imagine if they were wearing crimson or thews.

On a related note I think the duration of some poisons should be increased, such as resource drain. Many players have figured out how to never really run out of resources which adds to the above issue.

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

The whole point was to talk about how easy it is to turn certain classes into nigh immortals unless significantly out numbered which is not a balanced system. If you disagree that there's an issue then say that. [snip] There are plenty of people in this thread confirming what I'm talking about.

Sounds like they blocked in light armor with s&b, you and the homies weren't running mirage/blur/phantasmal, didn't use a shadow ability for the armor and then got hit with a crit while having very low crit resist. If you just had 1 of you use gap close (ambush), incap, fear while the others were using soul assault, you'd have burned him down fast. NB and sorc are finesse classes, DK, warden and templar are brawler classes. They are easier to play head to head in open combat typically. The merciless resolve and other morph can hit hard, plus incap for the extra damage bonus. Try that with a bow/dw setup and you'll probably kill more people. Nb has a much higher skill ceiling and is much more powerful than templar/warden/dk when in the right hands. Sorc's could be more of an issue because shields get so big. By the time you get mitigation and healing high in a temp/dk/warden, you are losing damage. There is a trade off there since you have to slot many of the healing cp tree healing buffs.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I don't disagree that had we been smarter in the moment the outcome of that example might have been different. But my point for making the thread wasnt contingent on that one situation. I only mentioned that one because it had just happened before I made the post.

Multiple classes are able to heal through significant amounts of damage due to their class heals and mitigation that are already strong being buffed to the moon.

I know warden on pts is seeing a heal reduction but templar, necro, and sorc could use the same.

I've seen plenty of nightblades and DKs get big heals through cp but those classes suffer more damage loss by going into the left side of the warfare tree.