Heal + Block Stacking Too Strong in Cryodiil

DrSlaughtr

Ever since CP 2.0 group players have figured out how to save the tank meta while still being able to output high damage.

For example, templars. As someone who used to main a magplar it's nice to see them and their stam brothers in arms doing so well.

But the game working as intended shouldn't create importal characters.

Here's an example that happened last night.

Three stamblades hit a magplar with 3 soul assaults. We all run the same build. Buffed up our soul assaults do over 100k damage in the tooltip.

The magplar went to their sword and board, blocked, and healed through all of it, then hit us with a 15k radial sweep.

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

I'm not a nerf advocate. But things do need to be balanced before they even think about bringing back procs. If players can out heal that now, imagine if they were wearing crimson or thews.

On a related note I think the duration of some poisons should be increased, such as resource drain. Many players have figured out how to never really run out of resources which adds to the above issue.

Urzigurumash

I'm not saying healing isn't overtuned, but DoTs are theoretically the counter to blocking, and to Thews also. Soul Assault can be blocked? I don't remember, don't see it much lately, but it shouldn't be, nor should any of the other Beam DoTs.

Urzigurumash

I also believe many of the high damage procs were introduced to resolve the excessively strong offensive-stat scaled heals we were left with after Dragonhold, or whenever. So now that we have even more Weapon/Spell Damage, and we don't have these high damage procs, it's not a massive surprise that many heals are over-tuned.

I assume, at least when it comes to MagNecros and MagDens, it's mostly these offensive stat scaled heals which are giving you a problem, rather than the HP-scaled heals that were a problem for so many last patch? Or you think you have an issue with Arctic Blast, Clannfear heal, etc also?

If in fact those Soul Assaults weren't blocked, but that Templar was able to heal through them regardless, do you think it would have been any better if all of you had an additional strong DoT in the form of Oblivion's Foe? Did you guys have any single-target DoTs slotted besides Soul Assault?

Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that DoTs were just buffed 10% relative to Direct Damage by virtue of the blue champion tree?

Faded

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

Time to change your tactics.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I also believe many of the high damage procs were introduced to resolve the excessively strong offensive-stat scaled heals we were left with after Dragonhold, or whenever. So now that we have even more Weapon/Spell Damage, and we don't have these high damage procs, it's not a massive surprise that many heals are over-tuned.

I assume, at least when it comes to MagNecros and MagDens, it's mostly these offensive stat scaled heals which are giving you a problem, rather than the HP-scaled heals that were a problem for so many last patch? Or you think you have an issue with Arctic Blast, Clannfear heal, etc also?

If in fact those Soul Assaults weren't blocked, but that Templar was able to heal through them regardless, do you think it would have been any better if all of you had an additional strong DoT in the form of Oblivion's Foe? Did you guys have any single-target DoTs slotted besides Soul Assault?

Unless I'm missing something, it seems to me that DoTs were just buffed 10% relative to Direct Damage by virtue of the blue champion tree?

The target was blocking. I also think soul Assault has been occasionally wonky because I've occasionally had a NB target stealth out of it which shouldn't be possible

We all landed poisons and the dot from poison injection. Other than that we currently don't have options for bow bow stamblades. We used to run Blackrose on the back bar to make Magnum shot a dot.

Oblivions Foe would be great if the 5th piece proc worked.

DrSlaughtr

Faded wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

Time to change your tactics.

So hitting a target with 3 coordinated ultimates after dropping dots is a bad strategy? 🤔🤔🤔

Sanctum74

3 stam blades using a magic ult aren’t going to be effective. You’re lacking spell pen, crit, and cp passives even if the tooltip looks good.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The target was blocking. I also think soul Assault has been occasionally wonky because I've occasionally had a NB target stealth out of it which shouldn't be possible

We all landed poisons and the dot from poison injection. Other than that we currently don't have options for bow bow stamblades. We used to run Blackrose on the back bar to make Magnum shot a dot.

Oblivions Foe would be great if the 5th piece proc worked.

Ok, it's nice to see somebody else agree that Damage Procs can reduce excessive TTK in a way occasionally favorable to the flow of combat. The BRP bow is great, it's one of the few Damage Procs that actually does scale off offensive stats.

You do have Soul Trap and Caltrops on bow/bow StamBlade though, which can both scale off Weapon Damage, not that they're great skills overall for you but they're an option. Why are you running bow/bow though? What's the point if not to use 2 different proc sets of some kind or another? Enlighten me, I'm a clumsy tank who breaks the bowstring whenever he picks one up.

Perhaps Beams can be blocked these days, or maybe it's inconsistent, I'll try and test things out. I strongly believe Beam DoTs should not be purgeable - since they emanate from the caster and are not typical dots which afflict and are attached to the target - so maybe with that logic they should be blockable.

DrSlaughtr

Sanctum74 wrote: »

3 stam blades using a magic ult aren’t going to be effective. You’re lacking spell pen, crit, and cp passives even if the tooltip looks good.

It outperforms toxic barrage and (usually) can't be interrupted by stealth or dodge.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The target was blocking. I also think soul Assault has been occasionally wonky because I've occasionally had a NB target stealth out of it which shouldn't be possible

We all landed poisons and the dot from poison injection. Other than that we currently don't have options for bow bow stamblades. We used to run Blackrose on the back bar to make Magnum shot a dot.

Oblivions Foe would be great if the 5th piece proc worked.

Ok, it's nice to see somebody else agree that Damage Procs can reduce excessive TTK in a way occasionally favorable to the flow of combat. The BRP bow is great, it's one of the few Damage Procs that actually does scale off offensive stats.

You do have Soul Trap and Caltrops on bow/bow StamBlade though, which can both scale off Weapon Damage, not that they're great skills overall for you but they're an option. Why are you running bow/bow though? What's the point if not to use 2 different proc sets of some kind or another? Enlighten me, I'm a clumsy tank who breaks the bowstring whenever he picks one up.

Perhaps Beams can be blocked these days, or maybe it's inconsistent, I'll try and test things out. I strongly believe Beam DoTs should not be purgeable - since they emanate from the caster and are not typical dots which afflict and are attached to the target - so maybe with that logic they should be blockable.

We run a stealth ops strat which requires more bow skills than can go on one bar without losing critical chance and damage.

Sanctum74

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

3 stam blades using a magic ult aren’t going to be effective. You’re lacking spell pen, crit, and cp passives even if the tooltip looks good.

It outperforms toxic barrage and (usually) can't be interrupted by stealth or dodge.

But it’s still magic damage so you’re losing out on the penetration and damage bonuses. It’s not always about the tooltip.

Faded

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

Time to change your tactics.

So hitting a target with 3 coordinated ultimates after dropping dots is a bad strategy? 🤔🤔🤔

Did it work?

No judgment. New tactics are 100 percent under your control and a lot faster than the nerfs you're asking for even if you get them.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

We run a stealth ops strat which requires more bow skills than can go on one bar without losing critical chance and damage.

Gotcha, so to fit in more passive buff things like Camo Hunter, etc.

On this subject I haven't tried Rending Slashes this patch but I think most people agree it needs - or needed if it's good now - a buff, especially without the Master Axes Maces.

maxjapank

It would help if you could screen shot the dmg you did with FTC or even combat metrics. And did the magplar use a shield ulti during this? Addionally, since the new patch, all characters have access to much more stamina than before. I'm using tri-stats on everything because that's what my old gear had. And I'm over 19k stam on my magplar. So much more than I'm used to. Sword and Shield can also block a ton of dmg so it's less the class and maybe more what a Sword and Shield can do with so much stamina to burn for blocking. And 15k crescent is pretty high. How much resistances are you running?

Again, some kind of record of what happened, screenshots, videos would help a lot.

Urzigurumash

Sanctum74 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

3 stam blades using a magic ult aren’t going to be effective. You’re lacking spell pen, crit, and cp passives even if the tooltip looks good.

It outperforms toxic barrage and (usually) can't be interrupted by stealth or dodge.

But it’s still magic damage so you’re losing out on the penetration and damage bonuses. It’s not always about the tooltip.

Yeah by default of course I'm with you on Bow Ult over Soul Assault on a Stam toon but this is a new world we're in, Orc Mages and Altmer Warriors, hybridized Blue Champion passives and hybridized Penetration, even Mauls provide Spell Pen now.

KhajiitLivesMatter

so if the tooltip is 100k
than in pvp it will do 50k
so thats a 8,3k dot
if ur taget just blocks the dot does 4,15k dmg / sec
if he has 30k resis it will be ~2k dot
2k for each player = 6k dot intotal for 6seconds
if the taget is preapert it is not hard to heal 6k per second for 6seconds

=== the ult is trash

Firstmep

Blocking has always been an overtuned mechanic.
Without the presence of zaan, vate destro etc, these blockhead builds can really shine.
My magcro can tank 5-6 ppl easily, which is pretty wierd in the current high dmg meta, but between blocking and high healing its possible.
I think Zos didn't really understand the ramifications of giving everyone 1k free spd and wpd, some skills just scale exceptionally well.
It also makes for a wierd meta where you can run around with 0 offensive sets and still have 4-5k spd or wpd.

Qbiken

For example, templars. As someone who used to main a magplar it's nice to see them and their stam brothers in arms doing so well

OP be playing in an entirely different patch than the rest of us 😆

Joy_Division

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Faded wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

Time to change your tactics.

So hitting a target with 3 coordinated ultimates after dropping dots is a bad strategy? 🤔🤔🤔

Yep. Or more specifically, that particular ultimate with that class against your target.

Soul Assault on a stamblade? I had to read that twice. Not only is that failing to take advantage of a very cliched, yet very potent combo of Incap + Merciless + Surprise Attacks, Soul Assault is only effective vs roll builds. Besides this meta is about the worst meta for it because high health + high heals is the best counter. And Magplar have always been the kings of countering Soul Assault because they can purge whatever DoTs are on them and their only defense move (block + burst heal) is exactly what to do against it.

About the last thing I would think a stamblade would want to do is remain stationary channeling a beam skill that was magicka based. I don't think that's good strategy at all for that class.

Merforum

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Ever since CP 2.0 group players have figured out how to save the tank meta while still being able to output high damage.

For example, templars. As someone who used to main a magplar it's nice to see them and their stam brothers in arms doing so well.

But the game working as intended shouldn't create importal characters.

Here's an example that happened last night.

Three stamblades hit a magplar with 3 soul assaults. We all run the same build. Buffed up our soul assaults do over 100k damage in the tooltip.

The magplar went to their sword and board, blocked, and healed through all of it, then hit us with a 15k radial sweep.

This is just one example out of countless over the last few weeks. Wardens, sorcs and necros are also easily out healing massive damage dumps.

I'm not a nerf advocate. But things do need to be balanced before they even think about bringing back procs. If players can out heal that now, imagine if they were wearing crimson or thews.

On a related note I think the duration of some poisons should be increased, such as resource drain. Many players have figured out how to never really run out of resources which adds to the above issue.

OP you are right, the new meta with super high stats and bonus w/s dmg has made it so players can go massive damage build with infinite heals. Ironically this infinite mitigation with high damage is exactly what people were blaming on proc sets and saying that should never exist.

If ZOS wants to create any type of balance they should stop trying to tweak little things here and there and implement CAPs. Similar to resistance cap, something like w/s dmg 4K, s/m/h stat 40K, crit chnc/dmg 50%, heal per second 25% of max health, or whatever things they think people are stacking into too much. Pretty simple really and much easier to test, than hundreds of sets, skills, cp, etc.

This would not only fix PVP but also CAPs can fix PVE overtuned performance. CAPs could also be different based on the area, like overland, dungeon, PVP, so all content could be balanced and challenging at the same time.

Firstmep

Things are defo out of whack rn.
Just had a nice little 1v7 on my magden this morning, and frankly I didn't even have to bother los-ing them, just holding block and rotating heals was enough. And then I killed them all in 1 sleet storm..
Yeah I wasn't fighting the best players, but jeez some of the blocking cps are pretty insane actually.

Kartalin

TheEndBringer wrote: »

stealth ops strat

It doesn't look like soul assault is the solution. Keep trying though, I'm sure you'll figure out how to Xv1 better players eventually.

DrSlaughtr

People, you really need to let the soul assault go. We're tuned to use it. My spell pen is 11k, only 1k less than my physical pen. My cp damage buffs spell damage just as much as physical.

We use it because it's the only ulti that can't be dodged OR broken by stealth. It's not even our main ultimate. And whether you like it or not, it DOES outperform toxic barrage. We have tested on dummies and other guildies players.

We don't usually slot incap because, for the fifth time, we are ranged. And there's the whole it can be dodged thing that causes it to miss.

I provided one example. Every day overtuned classes are dominating because of their ability to instantly heal to 100. If any of you say you don't see this in Cyro, either xbox is some magical haven for burst healers or you're not being honest.

Back to the other questions, I wouldn't know if they popped spell shield because they were physically blocking. Even if they did, it only gives you auto block.

NordSwordnBoard

Sanctum74 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

3 stam blades using a magic ult aren’t going to be effective. You’re lacking spell pen, crit, and cp passives even if the tooltip looks good.

It outperforms toxic barrage and (usually) can't be interrupted by stealth or dodge.

But it’s still magic damage so you’re losing out on the penetration and damage bonuses. It’s not always about the tooltip.

I find it hard to have sympathy for people who dot you up with the bow, soul assault x3 and then stealth away if it fails.

Kartalin wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

stealth ops strat

It doesn't look like soul assault is the solution. Keep trying though, I'm sure you'll figure out how to Xv1 better players eventually.

lmfao

Nevidyra

Magplar is the worst class for openworld Cyrodiil right now in the current meta. Even then, you don't kill one with Soul Assault. That ultimate doesn't work against good players. Only when you're 20v1, really, and not even then.

You're a Stamblade. You should be using Incap and burning through their stamina so they can't block anymore, and then dropping them with a bow proc and execute. I'm sure you'll figure out how to zerg down a better player someday, though.

- a Magplar that's moved to playing Stamblade.

olsborg

Ive played for years now, and SnB blocking and healing has been the go-to backbar for atleast stamina since basicly day 1, nothing has changed. Its so easy to just go to SnB bar, hold block and spam a few heals while you mitigate insane amounts of dmg while doing so, doesnt rly cost too much stamina either if you just play the right build(s).

I mean just 1 scenario, who in their right mind would choose anything other then SnB on backbar if you for example are dueling...? (if you play stamina build atleast)

I dunno what must happen, but blocking an execute skill at 15% hp and having it deal 1400-1600 dmg per hit while you pump up your hp with heals again is just broken imo.

Pattceht

The question basically comes down to if you get ulti dumped by 3 people should you be able to block heal through it?

Dont you think when you heal you should drop your block? Playing a Stamden for instance is *** easy mode I just hold block heal and still return Stam from the netch I can then go for my burst and drop a person.

What aspect of that is balanced? If you can withstand the ulti dump of 3 damage focused plauers you should not be able to then kill them easily. Honestly in a balanced game you should be able stand for a while (hold the line) but eventually run out of resources especially if you try attack outnumbered.

[Edit to remove bait]

Urzigurumash

Pattceht wrote: »

Dont you think when you heal you should drop your block? Playing a Stamden for instance is *** easy mode I just hold block heal and still return Stam from the netch I can then go for my burst and drop a person.

What aspect of that is balanced?

I would say this aspect of healing while blocking is balanced in that you can heal with damage shields up, and if you cast a HoT and roll-dodge it still ticks. Granted there's that skill-activation-cooldown after roll-dodge. A few of the strongest heals do require you to drop block, but all of them can be casted while a damage shield is up, off the top of my head, I could be wrong.

Kwoung

Am I reading this right, you tried to 3v1 and lost, or are just salty over him not dying? Also, not much info in the post, was this amazing player all out on his own with the 3 of you trying to gank him, or was he anywhere near a zerg? Because seriously, the zerg healing is pretty insane to overcome ATM. I see like 30 players popping restos in the air constantly and whenever we get near a zerg of our own, we instantly have like 12 stacks of radiating regen going, which takes a lot more than 3 coordinated NB's to cut though.

I actually thought this post was going to be about zerg heal stacking when I read the title, that is an actual issue and would love to see heals go back to group only.

DrSlaughtr

I provided one example and half of these replies are trollish snarks trying to make this about soul assault. Anyone in Cyrodiil right now if they're being honest sees how a select number of OP classes are way over performing because they have access to a big burst heal AND they can bump blue cp into healing and not lose any ability to kill.

It's not enjoyable for a 12 man group to get wiped by a 4 man templar group. And before someone tries to take a swipe I only run in comp groups. I still happens because the immortal templar, warden, and sorc builds you can go watch on youtube right now are running all over the rest of the classes.

Kwoung

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I provided one example and half of these replies are trollish snarks trying to make this about soul assault. Anyone in Cyrodiil right now if they're being honest sees how a select number of OP classes are way over performing because they have access to a big burst heal AND they can bump blue cp into healing and not lose any ability to kill.

It's not enjoyable for a 12 man group to get wiped by a 4 man templar group. And before someone tries to take a swipe I only run in comp groups. I still happens because the immortal templar, warden, and sorc builds you can go watch on youtube right now are running all over the rest of the classes.

Honestly, not being snarky, but target selection is a thing. You probably would have destroyed me on my MagPlar or StamPlar alts, because I kinda suck at playing them. But for someone that knows their class cold and has good reactions, anyone can be a very formidable foe. 3v1 doesn't guarantee a win by any means, I have seen more lose to 1 on many occasions.