Aristocles22 wrote: »

Don't misconstrue my comments as advocacy for anything IRL. I'm 100% for toleration on all levels in real life. Tamriel isn't our world, but it is very, very clearly a fantastical reflection of our world as it was, albeit an imperfect one. The Imperials are obviously based on Romans, the Nords on Vikings, and there are real people in France known as Bretons, living in a small peninsula in the northwest.

Imperials, nords, bretons etc have inspiration from those real world cultures, yes. All races of Tamriel have bits and pieces of various cultures, some more than others. But it doesn't make imperials romans, nords vikings etc. They have their own fictional culture.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

I'm not saying that there should be no tolerance whatsoever in Tamriel, but complete tolerance in any category is also unrealistic, even in a fantasy game. You don't like my comments? That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Please understand what I am saying and what I am not. I'll say it clearly if you need me to: I am against racism, homophobia, or any other form of hatred. Wanting a more flawed and nuanced fantasy world doesn't equate to advocacy of anything, any more than wanting to see kings and nobles in a fantasy world is advocacy for monarchism.

There isn't complete tolerance. There's a lot of racism, and sometimes also classism. For example there's a quest in Rivenspire where a breton noble woman is having a side-thing with her orc servant, while also being engaged to a breton noble man. Is her mother having an issue with that the servant is a woman? No, but she have an issue with her being an orc and a servant.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

And for the record, only the orcs (the orcs are under Malacath) practice polygamy. Cultures which worship a form of Mara and/or Dibella are monogamous. The latter really isn't a goddess of love. In fact, she's probably destroyed quite a few marriages. As for Greymoor, it's obvious that they overdid it in that expansion (there are at least four parts of that zone which have that sort of content), so it seems obvious that they dialed it way back in Markarth, as there is basically none of that stuff in the Reach.

Polyamory/polygamy exist in more cultures than just orcs. Yokudan gods are it, were Morwha is the favourite wife of Tall Papa, so if the gods do it, it's likely fine by the people.

But mainly it has been stated by loremasters and mentioned in game in some form that Mara and Dibella accept it aswell and that they are about the quality of love, not quantity. They don't care if you love one or more, all that matters is that it is genuine love and affection.
"Ah, but the Passion Dancer bids us remember that quality of love is of the essence, not quantity. If the dance transports us, what matter the number of dancers?"
Augustine Viliane answers your questions

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Don't misconstrue my comments as advocacy for anything IRL. I'm 100% for toleration on all levels in real life. Tamriel isn't our world, but it is very, very clearly a fantastical reflection of our world as it was, albeit an imperfect one. The Imperials are obviously based on Romans, the Nords on Vikings, and there are real people in France known as Bretons, living in a small peninsula in the northwest.

I'm not saying that there should be no tolerance whatsoever in Tamriel, but complete tolerance in any category is also unrealistic, even in a fantasy game. You don't like my comments? That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Please understand what I am saying and what I am not. I'll say it clearly if you need me to: I am against racism, homophobia, or any other form of hatred. Wanting a more flawed and nuanced fantasy world doesn't equate to advocacy of anything, any more than wanting to see kings and nobles in a fantasy world is advocacy for monarchism.

And for the record, only the orcs (the orcs are under Malacath) practice polygamy. Cultures which worship a form of Mara and/or Dibella are monogamous. The latter really isn't a goddess of love. In fact, she's probably destroyed quite a few marriages. As for Greymoor, it's obvious that they overdid it in that expansion (there are at least four parts of that zone which have that sort of content), so it seems obvious that they dialed it way back in Markarth, as there is basically none of that stuff in the Reach.

Be careful with any assumption that a game culture is "based on" one particular Earth culture. It's just as reasonable a way to do content development to pick and choose inspiration from several cultures, as well as making up a few elements from scratch. E.g., Khajit have Russian accents, but there's little else Russian about them. Imperial names, military costumes, military ranks and in some cases hairstyles are obviously Roman-inspired, but they don't wear togas, little of their architecture looks Roman, and their government doesn't sound particularly Roman either.

I think that some of the inaccuracies relative to source material is due to poor research, some intentional mismatching, and some elements being harder to render in-game than others. Togas aren't easy to move around in, and animating a character with one on isn't as easy as giving said character a shirt and pants. Yes, I know the Romans didn't use pants as much as we do now, and only the rich used togas, but that's besides the point.

The point is, it's clear that most of the cultures in ESO are analogues to a real-world culture. Some of them are more mixed than others, such as the Mesopotamian elements present in the Dunmer which are mixed with medieval European elements.

Lugaldu wrote: »

In general, I find it wrong to bring up the idea that Tamriel should have the same standards and ways of thinking as our world, no matter what the subject. It's great that same-sex couples just come up here and nobody gives a special thought or comment on it in any way.
One can also note that in our world there have repeatedly been changes in the point of view in the past and it is by no means the case that all prehistoric/early historic societies were homophobic. For most of the times we don't know, but there are examples to the contrary. A classic example is pederasty in ancient Greece. It was common and viewed positively in society that wealthy older men had young men for their pupils and lovers.

In Africa there same-sex couples were not only tolerated but they were actively celebrated. Pre monotheism, they played an important and active role in their societies.

Women in Tamriel have displayed great martial and magical prowess, and have also been great leaders dating far back in history. They're portrayed as just as nuanced as men, capable of being brilliant and strategic and also cunning and traitorous. Alessia led the rebellion that overthrew the Ayleids (with help obviously) and founded the first Empire. Makela Leki was one of the greatest Ansei to ever live. Ayrenn started the First Aldmeri Dominion. Potema the Wolf Queen, Anequina of Elsweyr, Almalexia. The Green Lady is the embodiment of the martial prowess of the Bosmer people. Kyne is a warrior goddess in the Nord pantheon. Boethiah, the Daedric Prince who loves tournaments and battle, often presents as female. You do see sexism pop up ("Can't stand the sight of a strong Nord woman?") and there are fixed gender roles in some cultures (Orcs are the obvious one) but women have been on a much more equal footing throughout history. Racial/cultural/religious tensions are by far the greatest source of conflict in the universe.

So there isn't a strong pervasive sense of "masculinity strong, femininity weak" going on in Tamriel. A combination of this as well as the Divines generally being accepting of romantic relationships as long as they are of good quality (see Mara and Dibella) makes the backlash against gay pairings almost nonexistent. For every same-sex couple you see and notice there are many, many characters who are straight that you don't notice because that's just the default to your eyes.

Hmm. There's the sailor in Stros M'Kai who is interested in Jakarn. The gay Khajiit couple Sind and Tand in Reaper's March. An Altmer captain and her wife in the Cave of Broken Sails quest (that's the one you referenced). Little Leaf and Regent Cassipia in Craglorn. Then in Wrothgar there's Shaldagan and her wife out by the Vosh Rakh, in Vvardenfell the overseer and her wife, and Velsa and Narahni in the Thieves Guild. In lore, Pelinal Whitestrake is implied to have had a male lover, as inspired by Achilles and Patroclus. Oh, and lest we forget, Vivec, who is a pansexual intersex conundrum.

In the many, many Elder Scrolls games and the long vast history we have explored, the number of same-sex relationships we've seen is really a drop in the bucket.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Some are closer than others. While none are 100% identical to their real-world analogues, they are close enough that we can draw generalizations based on them to a large degree, with a few exceptions, like the gothic cathedral-looking chapels in Cyrodiil, which is otherwise very much like ancient Rome.

And while there isn't complete tolerance in all fields, there IS essentially complete tolerance in a few, just not race. I suppose it would be even more unrealistic to expect racial tolerance in a setting where nearly all of the races engage in frequent warfare against each other.

As for the Mara/Dibella polygamy thing, it isn't actually in the gameplay, just an extraneous source. We never seen any polygamists except for those of the orcs. You also can't get a polygamous marriage in these games, even if it is supposedly allowed in canon. Granted, that's probably for the best. I'm also pretty certain that Dibella doesn't really do marriages, but let's save what she does for another time. Or what her followers do, at least. Like that lady from the bunk house in Skyrim. Yikes.

As it is, we're getting off-topic. I just feel sorry for the mods who will probably have to read through all this back-and-forth, then close the thread or something.

There is no analogue to a real life culture in TES. Only inspiration. Believing otherwise is what causes misconceptions about lore.

Lore > gameplay. Also, Dibella is about beauty, art, and love. Sex is part of it too, but to a less degree than people think. I blame Skyrim for that. Speaking of that and a certain lady from Riften's bunk house. She can say Dibella as much as she wants, but I'm pretty damn sure that the only et'Ada that is smiling at her and having a laugh is Sanguine.


As for the topic:

There is a whole bunch of LGBTQ+ references in ESO (But still a lot less than hetero). This site has collected most of them:
https://imperial-library.info/content/lgbt-elder-scrolls

Sweet Rotmeth Brew quest in Elseweyr.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the male prostitute on the first floor of the Ebony Flask in Ebonheart. He is flirting with his male client and when spoken to, he asks you to wait for your turn. My favourite "inn" in EP, they even have a torture room

Ackwalan wrote: »

cannibalisms

This can always be consistently linked to the lore. Bosmer treat things just different...

Here's one thing that may skew perceptions a bit:

• There are very few LGBTQ romantic relationships in the game.
• But ZoS saved some of its BEST ideas for those few.

The specific examples I'm thinking of are the dying Bosmer husband, the humorous bit cited above in Coldharbour, and the "my wife wanted me to move more merchandise" joke in Belkarth.

But there also are many interesting, amusing or decently described heterosexual relationships in the game, including just for starters:

• 1 or 2 of Jakarn's.
• Alcaire Castle.
• Emeric's marriage.
• The stories in Obsidian Scar and Crypt of Hearts. (Also City of Ash.)
• Several in the hireling emails.
• A couple of Green Lady ones.
• A couple of Thieves Guild ones.
• Therraya's disastrous marriage.
• The one alluded to in the main quest.

a more subtle indication found from a letter that the 1st boss (Akash Gra-Mal) in Elden Hollow 1 and the last boss (Cannonreeve Oroneth) are a couple.
At the Western Skyrim werewolf boss, there are 3 civilians being attacked: A mother, her son and son's husband. If you speak with them, you will also learn that the mother does not approve their relationship - not becouse they are gay but becouse son's husband is a big ***.
Cassipia and Little leaf from Craglorn main story are also likely a couple, although Cassipia doesnt bring it up so clearly. The event before fighting the Exalted Viper is quite emotional.

ChaosWotan wrote: »

please don't present pro- or anti-gay arguments. I just want facts about content in the game: the number of quests, and their names please.

What a "pity". I'm still waiting for an "anti-gay 'argument'" that's not unscientific nonsense. How can someone even be against an inborn personality aspect?! It's as irrational as being anti-blonde or anti-greeneyed or "not agreeing with" whatever other aspect people are literally born with. Okay, I know there were times when left-handed people were consired possessed by evil spirits, but people's scientific understanding should have developed since then... We're living in the 21st century after all.

Anway, I think this list is even a bit longer than the one that had already been posted here before:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/LGBTQ+

Aristocles22 wrote: »

I agree that it isn't a huge deal by modern standards, but Tamriel isn't modern.

You use an ancient Greek name (maybe even referring to Plato) but consider acceptance of homosexuality something modern that did not exists in older times?

Aristocles22 wrote: »

In other cases, it was probably just easier for ZoS to keep a certain character's words to the player the same, regardless of whether the player is male or female, instead of recording two sets of lines, so depending on the player's sex, it may come off as being hit on by a given NPC.

I doubt it. There are even extra dialogues depending on the character's race. And in many languages (among others French, Italian and German, to name a few for which a voiced translation of ESO exists) words that describe people (all adjectives and nouns) differ depending on the addressed person's gender. So for every time someone calls your character "friend", "traveller" or "hero" (or whatever) there have to been 2 different recordings for a male pc and a female pc anyway.

I always wonder how some people, with all their hatred and prejudice, would react and feel the other way around if they were repeatedly confronted with discussing who they love, where they come from, what gender they belong to, etc. If they would have to justify themselves about who they are. Empathy is a valuable gift. And unfortunately many people lack it.