Crown Store Research Timer Scrolls = P2w?

Merlin13KAGL · May 2017

No

P2W involves paying for something not available in game through normal means.

It's not as if these people couldn't ask 100 crafters to make the items they don't have researched at any given time.

Trait research is an arbitrary time sync, just like horse training is. You can do it the standard way and save $. You can spend $ and save time.

Doesn't make it P2W in any way, shape, nor form.

BloodWolfe · May 2017

No

I don't think it is P2W because it's not, but I do NOT agree with these scrolls being added to the crown store.

It's a slap in the face to the master crafters (I'm not and I barely craft but I respect those who spent the time crafting) and this is just such a ridiculous money grab. I don't think most will use these anyway since the cost to power through the 8/9 traits especially would be insane and not worth it at all.

To each their own I guess but the cost for the reward is so ridiculous I don't see many people taking advantage of these scrolls but who knows. Let's hope these scrolls fail miserably!

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Belidos wrote: »

So many people don't know what pay to win means nowdays.

So many people stick to archaic definitions of P2W and think in categories "if i cant kill other player with it then its not P2W"

P2W is allowing players to buy with real money an advantage that is otherwise unobtainable in game by other means (doesn't have to be only to kill, but things in general that are unobtainable other than spending real cash). This just speeds up progress but does not give an advanatge that others can't get unless they spend money, this just slightly unblocks the time gating of the trait research but given enough time is still obtainable without spending real cash. This is why the scrolls are not P2W and I don't agree with these scrolls being added but they are NOT P2W! Too many cry out "P2W" for things that aren't even close to being P2W.

LadyNalcarya · May 2017

No

No, crafted sets arent BiS and it any case theyre not account-bound so you can always ask someone to craft for you.
I have a crafter with all traits and almost all styles, but its almost useless... Even droprates of master writs dont seem to be higher than on chars that dont have any traits or purple motifs.
Also, if I remember correctly, those will be sold in game by master writ merchant. So even if they introduce 10th trait, it would still be obtainable without buying anything from cash shop.

JKorr · May 2017

No

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Belidos wrote: »

So many people don't know what pay to win means nowdays.

So many people stick to archaic definitions of P2W and think in categories "if i cant kill other player with it then its not P2W"

Unless the only source of income in the game is from crafting, and you're only allowed to craft items if you have all 9 traits researched, how exactly is making the research slightly faster "pay to win"?

For the players who are focused on pvp and want the bis gear, crafted sets aren't a part of it. Best in slot weapons? Again, not crafted.

Is there a secret path for 9 trait crafters to become Emperor? Automatically get to the first place on leaderboards for trials/pledges because we can make Julianos or Morkuldin's? I have two maxed out 9 trait crafters. What exactly do I win? [besides a lot of requests from guildies for research items and gear, food, potions, poisons, glyphs] I enjoy crafting and like helping people who want to craft. If a scroll to shorten the research time lets someone consider crafting where before the research time killed their interest, why should it bother me?

Galwylin · May 2017

Yes

Why are people so pretend ignorant? How does advancing research determine if you look good or not. When saying its p2w, its about the sets you're able to craft not the motifs. If you don't get the drops needed, you can craft your own. Besides, there's really no winning in a MMORPG. Its all really subjective. You may finish a dungeon and think you've won or that one drop you've been searching for Pay to win refers to the ability to have something more than the next guy for the exchange of money to the company. Even where people think its being used correctly aren't because there is no winning in any MMORPG that I'm aware of. At no point do these type games give you an end credits and the game ends. Actual winning is never on the table in this game or any other.

In theory, if I have the means (and am willing to), my character can be advanced over yours even though we start at the same time. I can have maxxed horse, better gear (since I can craft full sets), and such. Even in PvP, I could win over you because you are held back due to inability to obtain sets reasonably or craft specific potions and I can keep ahead of you in levels also. I am winning if winning is such a thing all due to my bank account. At some point, our skill will even us out but until then, I'm way ahead of where you will be in months. Probably out the door faster too.

That's what p2w means today. What MMORPG have people been playing where they actually win? And what was the prize?

Demycilian · May 2017

Kind of. But not really. Still, im not happy to see the cash shop encrouching on the game like that. It doesnt bode well.

Keep_Door · May 2017

Crafted gear isnt even that good. Some 9 trait sets are decent but gear doesnt = winning ....

Eddyble · May 2017

No

No. My opinion as a crafter, having put in the time in researching, is that considering the current state of crafted sets as well as actual cost of scrolls, its not p2w. and I suppose if someone wants to drop $2k then they are helping the game live longer for me. so, meh, no bother to me.

lagrue · May 2017

No

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Anyone else think its kind of P2w for the time most of everyone put into?

How is it P2W when crafted gear doesn't even hold a candle to dropped gear?

More like Pay to Self Gimp.

I think the closest thing to a benefit they would get is maybe being able to craft something for a writ they couldn't before. I'm already master crafter in Light, Heavy and Wood - I have no intention to go for Medium or Weapons - but realistically I don't see these scrolls as harmful to those of us who have worked for it. If they want to spent 400 crowns for one day - then so be it. They are the ones being extorted.

I would actually say Experience Scrolls are more P2W - and that would be an absurd statement.

ZOS_Bill · May 2017

There have been a few comments removed for some Flaming or Baiting. When commenting, try to stay civil and constructive even if you disagree with someone, and make sure you stay within the forum rules.

Acid_Glow · May 2017

No

Nope dumbest idea I heard.

Korah_Eaglecry · May 2017

Its no different than the XP Scrolls. Honestly Ive seen real P2W in games and this doesnt even scratch the surface. A new player right now is far behind any crafter that has been at this for any amount of time longer than them. Be it days or years. This in no way makes a player able to have an advantage over anyone else as there is already players with these traits unlocked.

Cpt_Teemo · May 2017

Yes

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Its no different than the XP Scrolls. Honestly Ive seen real P2W in games and this doesnt even scratch the surface. A new player right now is far behind any crafter that has been at this for any amount of time longer than them. Be it days or years. This in no way makes a player able to have an advantage over anyone else as there is already players with these traits unlocked.

It's just confusing how they could just crap on people that have stuck with the game for years accomplishing the 9 trait crafter the way it should be and has been for 3 years, yet now they do this?

Tholian1 · May 2017

Yes

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Its no different than the XP Scrolls. Honestly Ive seen real P2W in games and this doesnt even scratch the surface. A new player right now is far behind any crafter that has been at this for any amount of time longer than them. Be it days or years. This in no way makes a player able to have an advantage over anyone else as there is already players with these traits unlocked.

It's just confusing how they could just crap on people that have stuck with the game for years accomplishing the 9 trait crafter the way it should be and has been for 3 years, yet now they do this?

Well, as @Nestor pointed out, it would be extremely expensive for a player to reduce their research times by a large amount quickly.

I'm actually curious how many players would have that amount of money to blow on becoming a 9 trait crafter quickly. Why waste so much money for something considered not P2W and "cosmetic" by so many players?

xeNNNNN · May 2017

No

Its really not, its convenience. I dont see how its pay to win at all because you can just ask in chat or ask a guild mate to craft you armor and weapons with certain traits and in a certain set.

Alls the scrolls do is allow people to get the tedium of research done faster. Peddling this as P2W is just stupid and basically saying "I want to whine for the sake of whining because I dont have the money to buy the scrolls"....so just do it the way most others do it.

People wanted less time on researching items and this is what they got, a middle ground. Even if it doesnt feel like it because you have to pay money for it. But its better than pissing off a vast majority of mastercrafters who spent months and months getting all the traits. I wanted them to flattly reduce the time on research but at least this is something rather than nothing at all.

lagrue · May 2017

No

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Its no different than the XP Scrolls. Honestly Ive seen real P2W in games and this doesnt even scratch the surface. A new player right now is far behind any crafter that has been at this for any amount of time longer than them. Be it days or years. This in no way makes a player able to have an advantage over anyone else as there is already players with these traits unlocked.

It's just confusing how they could just crap on people that have stuck with the game for years accomplishing the 9 trait crafter the way it should be and has been for 3 years, yet now they do this?

You do realize right that to get one item from Rank 8 to 9, getting that final trait- normally takes 30 days. 30x400. That is 12,000 crowns - or somewhere around $80 - to get one single item, up one single rank. If that somehow harms you - then I'm in shock and awe - but it is quiet clear when using basic math skills that the scroll system is nothing but monetary punishment to anybody who chooses to use it....

Your 3 years of work are not going to get invalidated... I don't even want to fathom the costs of somebody doing this to every item and every rank. What took you 3 years to do - would take somebody over $9000 of real money to achieve - I wouldn't worry much about your accomplishments being encroached on - even the average whale gamer couldn't afford to dish that out.

My math might be a bit off - but to use these scrolls, start to finish - to fully research one item from no traits to all traits would cost 38,400 crowns. (96 days x 400 crowns per day) now multiply that by how many items are the game (38,400 x 35) That is 1,344,000 crowns total. In my country that is just short of $10,000.

These scrolls are not pay to win - they're literally pay to pay.

Phinix1 · May 2017

Mashille wrote: »

It's not really P2W as it is just a time saver same with Riding Lessons so if you think this is P2W you must also thing Riding Lessons and Bank Space are P2W.

However:

This one does annoy me significantly more than all the others as before it felt like a real Achievement to have 9 Traits on everything as it took around one and a half years to do it now that it is buyable I feel the title of "Master Crafter" becomes slightly less valuable as you can juts buy your way there (No matter how expensive it is)

This is pretty much my take on it.

Also if the Crown Store version indeed has no cooldown while the voucher version does, that would be pretty upsetting given we are told Crown items will never be more powerful than in-game available versions. Needs confirmation.

Mayrael · May 2017

No

1. P2W = something you cant get without paying real money.
2. It gives you advantage against other players.

First condition is false. Second TBH is false also as there is no BiS crafted set.
Edit: Forgott to mention Im 9 trait crafter since almost an year and I dont mind those scrolls. The only thing I regret is mentioned flaw of crafted sets - these are at best decent.

Artheiron · April 2018

Yes

It is pay to win, not too significant but pay to win regardless.

Sylosi · April 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

P2W involves paying for something not available in game through normal means.

No it doesn't, P2W games often employ the tactic of simply making certain things beyond painful to get, usually by some level of RNG combined with heavy grind (also often being gated by time intervals), so they can claim you can get X in game, but the reality is even if someone played 24/7 they would still take an age to get those items, so basically if you want to be competitive in the time frame before the game makes the current gear redundant, then you need to splash the cash.

themaddaedra · April 2018

Yes

Nestor wrote: »

Each Scroll cuts 24 hours off a research, and can be used effectively once a day. So, just looking at the last two traits which take 25 days on average, give or take, depending on ESO Plus, and whatever passives, so we are calling it 25 days to reduce the madness in the explanation. Someone would have to buy 12 Research Scrolls and then only cut the research time down by half. And that is for one item for the 8th or 9th trait.

Sounds like an expensive way to save time. Even at my age, I don't think it's worth the costs.

Even with the Crown Store NO CD Scrolls, it is still expensive, see below:

There's no cooldown for crown scrolls. And there are grand scrolls which reduce the time by 7 days.

So no point made here at all.

themaddaedra · April 2018

Yes

Mayrael wrote: »

1. P2W = something you cant get without paying real money.
2. It gives you advantage against other players.

First condition is false. Second TBH is false also as there is no BiS crafted set.
Edit: Forgott to mention Im 9 trait crafter since almost an year and I dont mind those scrolls. The only thing I regret is mentioned flaw of crafted sets - these are at best decent.

Point 1. You can't get no-cooldown research scrolls without real money.

Point 2: Best builds are now made by crafted sets, even so ZoS said they won't introduce any drop sets which are better than crafted ones. Hunding's, Julianos, Mechanical Acuity, Innate Axom... Crafted sets are BiS in many cases.

Slick_007 · April 2018

Artheiron wrote: »

It is pay to win, not too significant but pay to win regardless.

when did necromancers get implemented? coulda sworn this thread was dead

Leandor · April 2018

Outrageous! You have to buy the game to win in it! All is pay to win! We demand games for free! And internet service must be free also! Otherwise this is pay to win!
We will sue you all to the end of the world!

PAY TO WIN!

PAY TO WIN!

neverwalk · April 2018

Yes

What do you WIN ?

mikemacon · April 2018

No

It’s “pay to save time”.

If you do it the old fashioned way you’ll get to the same place, just not as quickly.

Plus you’ll be able to buy from the Money McMoneybags Who shell out real-world money to get there quicker.

Not sure where the problem is.

Juju_beans · April 2018

How is being able to craft gear sooner "pay to win" ?
What exactly do you win ?

Guarlet · April 2018

No

Absolut_Turkey wrote: »

No. Do you even know what "pay to win" means? If so, what exactly is a scroll purchaser winning? Is their a contest for crafting time that I'm not aware of?

This.

Why do people on these forums just not understand what P2W means??????????

CurlyQTip · April 2018

No

its more like pay to feel bad about paying for a very short amount of time saved

VaranisArano · April 2018

I was just curious as to how much you pay.

For Blacksmithing, Clothing, and Woodworking, you need about 300,000 crowns or around $2000 (PC/NA non-sale crown prices). Or you could research for free in about a year to a year and a half,

For jewelry, you need about 50 to 55K crowns or between $360 to $400. Or you could research for free in about 5 months (assuming passive and you have any the traits).

Purchasing scrolls just isn't worth it for me, but I like the math.