Mablung wrote: »

You are completely missing the point. Everyone here even those 'flipping out' appreciate the work and knowledge ER shares. The problem is that it should not be you and your guild sharing the information, having what is perceived to be special access to developers or reps.

Try not to think of it as ER having special access to devs or reps, instead think of it as the devs getting special access to ER.

All kidding aside, this isn't about ER and the other guilds being given a service or privilege by ZoS, it's about them being used as a resource or tool by ZoS.

If ZoS relies on only one resource it's "doing it wrong" (even if that resource is as awesome as ER ), but it doesn't.

veneficus wrote: »

Coke and GM for example don't just survey or interview the most regular consumers of their product. That isn't how you grow your customer base. Instead these companies conduct research with every important customer segment so they can learn what works and how to grow their customer base.

Which is exactly why they meet with guilds from across the casual->hardcore spectrum, getting focused feedback from all playstyles *in addition to* getting feedback from these forums, reddit, and other sites.

Hopefully now you see that you actually approve of their exact customer research methods (even though you didn't realise it when you posted that).

Cogo wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

snipped wall of text

To break down and make what you said simpler:

1/ You think everyone here who gives a negative opinion regardless of being constructive or not shouldn't be listened to.

2/ You think people here shouldn't have the right to complain or ask more more information on changes, and that people here are only interested in getting/keeping their abilities buffed.

3/ You think all feedback here is worthless and you feel guilds are the only ones that should give it.

4/ Your fourth load of paragraphs are just another "if you don't like the way it is GTFO" kneejerk response.

Snipped wall of text

Cogo wrote: »

1. I have never said anyone should not be listened to. I have said, and feel free to look at my previous post, or ask several users here who seen me, that I am 100% for free speech, no matter what your opinion is.

My Concern was that constant nagging, without substance, in a negative way, from the same people, MIGHT make the DEVS listen less to this forum. I did not say or mean that's what I want. I WANT them to listen to us here.
Don't scare them away! (Maybe I should just have said that?)

Just because someone's frustrated and hasn't put their opinion into a constructive "easy to read" wall of text doesn't mean their opinion should be any less valid. While a lot might be without substance if you in fact if you count all the people nagging and raging and line up the dots you get a much clearer picture at what is wrong than just relying on some expert opinion.

Cogo wrote: »

2. I want as many people as possible to voice their opinions, whatever they are. But I have noticed that the way most common suggestion is to make something easier or buffed. And in most cases the user who suggests it, only focus on THEIR characters ability. This is not wrong, but we lack feedback on these forum about overall feedback.

The vampire OOPS and the shield bash mistake are 2 good examples. They got fixed and works well now. If most ESO players was furious about these 2 fixes, then I have missed that information.

That's exactly what is wrong with just resorting to "expert" opinions also, do you really think everyone from these guilds are lobbying with good intentions only? In fact it's far more dangerous because nobody can argue against a bad or biased idea if it's behind closed doors. At least in public view you are free to try and shoot down any of these suggestions as you wish.

Cogo wrote: »

3. I want all feedback from these forums to come through, but I am concerned about how much real feedback, whatever that may be, gets through, since these forums sometimes sadly gets off topic, needed to be modded for personal attacks or flaming nature.

Its needed to get feedback about the game from as many different areas as possible.
Communicating with guilds is ONE area to get feedback. I see no problem in getting information from certain guilds. But I do not believe that some guild will dictate what Zenimax will do.

Both Everquest and WoW was in fact in contact with Fires of Heaven, who was one of the Elite guilds in both these games. Why not get feedback from such a guild?

And just to say it to be clear: NO, I absolutely NOT think getting feedback from ONLY guilds. I am saying, or was trying to say, its important to get as much feedback from as many different areas as possible.

In my experience of MMO's more often than not some guilds do end up dictating changes, I've seen totally gimped classes much like templars are now held back for an extremely long period of time just because a small few wanted things to stay as they were. In one particular MMO recently I've literally seen the devs rush to revert PTS changes because one guy didn't like them and wanted his high burst PvP spec to do more sustained damage (longer than 5 mins) over low burst PvE builds.

I'm sure most are complaining here because they don't want that to become the norm for this game.

Cogo wrote: »

4. If anyone got the impression that I in a very rude manner tells players to get out if they do not like the game, then my wording was terribly wrong.

I do say that if someone is not happy playing ESO, why play? Why not go play a game you do like?

I hope this answer was not to long. Tried my best to be as direct as I could.

Because that was a knee jerk response.

People didn't pick up this game just to complain about it and quit, they want to get into the game but are frustrated by things such as bugs, balance issues, difficulty of content and the general direction the game is going.

Obviously some have less patience than others and unsub, the ones that stay and moan don't hate the game, they like it but want to see changes if they are going to be paying a sub each month on top of what they'd paid already.

veneficus wrote: »

Zenimax may be doing this kind of systematic research. However if they are doing this sort of research they haven't really communicated that they do. Meanwhile there is the impression that the company is obtaining a lot of directional feedback and advice from a small number of players situated in a guild or two.

Why would that be the impression when they came in and stated they speak to multiple guilds across the spectrum of playstyles in addition to monitoring forums and fansites?

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi folks,

Wanted to pop in here and offer some clarification. The Community Team does indeed participate in regular voice chats with some of our most active guilds. The guilds we're currently in regular talks with are a good mix of PvP, PvE, and casual. In addition to reading the forums and fansites, this helps us to better understand what the main issues are and their severity, where the best opportunities for improvement are, and identify what everyone wants more details on. More often than not, we hear the same things over and over (such as Templars, weapons skills/stamina builds, and heavy armor needing improvements and in some case fixes, changes needed to make PvP more rewarding, etc.)

These talks do not replace or hold more value to us than what we read here on our official forums, and are often done in the late evening on our own time. It adds another layer of valuable insight, and gives us the opportunity to ask about things in-person that we need clarification or more details on.

All that said, we are doing what we can, when we can, to get in here and answer your questions more often.

It's not the special treatment to some, but the silent treatment to most that's causing the issue. Given that, participating in this forum, the official forum, is pointless.

Mablung wrote: »

Sirlex wrote: »

Half of the people here are actually paying attention and get what's going on - the other half are just ignoring all fact and raging about nothing.

People keep talking about how we have all this super secret information...guess what - the closest thing we get to "secret information" or even answers to questions is "yea we will look into that". Anytime we do manage to gleam some sort of insight on what might be going on, we openly tell everyone - how do you think the OP even knew to complain? We don't hide and covet any secret information - we actually do the exact opposite - we take any secretly OP things that YOU the players are using, and then we take them to ZoS to get them fixed.

The people flipping out here are 100% making up BS to suit their own ends. You should all be thanking ZoS for working overtime for free - instead you are being a bunch of jerks. Then to top it off, you wonder why they don't want to talk to you...

You are completely missing the point. Everyone here even those 'flipping out' appreciate the work and knowledge ER shares. The problem is that it should not be you and your guild sharing the information, having what is perceived to be special access to developers or reps.

ZOS should be posting whatever answers or information they give your guild or any other guild here on the official forums. I wouldn't even care if they made their official posts on your forums, I only care that the information is given from them to the community in some official form.

Its not ZO's job to post the contents of someone else's interview. If you would like to provide the community with info, write down some questions and request an interview so you can post away. Im sure ZO will consider your request based on merit. Otherwise wait for the patch notes like the rest of us.

Aenthel wrote: »

Sirlex wrote: »

Half of the people here are actually paying attention and get what's going on - the other half are just ignoring all fact and raging about nothing.

People keep talking about how we have all this super secret information...guess what - the closest thing we get to "secret information" or even answers to questions is "yea we will look into that". Anytime we do manage to gleam some sort of insight on what might be going on, we openly tell everyone - how do you think the OP even knew to complain? We don't hide and covet any secret information - we actually do the exact opposite - we take any secretly OP things that YOU the players are using, and then we take them to ZoS to get them fixed.

The people flipping out here are 100% making up BS to suit their own ends. You should all be thanking ZoS for working overtime for free - instead you are being a bunch of jerks. Then to top it off, you wonder why they don't want to talk to you...

You openly tell, perhaps, but other people are also told not to tell, to hush, to keep it a secret from everyone else, you see the contradiction?

And for ***** sake, you lot still don't see the point, you get some FRIGGING answers... even if its some vague-balooney, you get an answer.

So yes, maybe we make up BS, maybe we are being jerks, sadly, the one responsible for that is not our parents (or lack of it) for our upbringing, but the deafening silence on the ZoS end. They only decide to talk to select few, then tell you guys not to say anything and here the rest of us, hoping for a miracle that would take this game out of the hell-hole it has been for long enough.

I'd honestly rather them do nothing on their off-time but actually do something on their actual working time instead of... doing nothing.

We get answers like "we are looking into that" - sorry that you think thats some big advantage, because its not. You can pretty much assume they know everything and are looking into everything you have ever reported - because like has been stated here 100 times, they read the forums, twitter, facebook, fan sites, and read /feedback in game.

On a side note - keep talking about us! Any press is good press. I'm going to retire from this thread and go read all the new guild applications we have. Have fun with your pointless witch hunt!

limeli8 wrote: »

BadgerRider1 wrote: »

limeli8 wrote: »

BadgerRider1 wrote: »

limeli8 wrote: »

As in real life you wouldn't ask a guy at a McDonnalds drive though for legal advise. In game you should also know what sort of game related credentials people have when they post about in game issues.

Fair enough. Now, in your mind, what would qualify a person to discuss a skill, say one learned at level 40?

Is it a person who grabbed that skill at 40 and morphed and used it till level VR12? Or only one who used it in trials, or only one who used it in dungeons? What about PvP?

You are talking about experience, but who's type of experience is to be used as the basis for acceptance/rejection in order to be considered "worthy" of discussing a topic?

Well i never said that people should be able to have an opinion but based on seeing what their in game accomplishments are one could more or less make a judgement call whether they really are likely to make a good point about a certain issue. Now that doesn't guarantee anything but statistically it should make it easier to actually acquire real info from these forums as apposed to emotional outbursts from people who hardly play the game and just use the forums to get attention.

PS also so i could find these people in cyro, kill them in the most aggravating fashion and and t-bag them till the have a stroke in RL from raging so hard.

PPS that stuff in PS was totaly a joke. Cause i'd never do something like that being a super nice person and all that! Honest!

Ok...I assume you meant you never said that people shouldn't have an opinion.

My point is that you are asking for this stuff. Why does that matter? You are not a decision maker for this game. Take what they say at face value, or ask them directly for what you want to know.

The only people who need to know, and might legitimately weigh a persons "status" are those employees that already have more than enough information at their fingertips.

Everyone, no matter how low level or skilled has an equal right to be heard. Only ZM personnel can decide whether or not to weight them based on game experience.

Well it seems i ether got totally misunderstood or misinterpreted on purpose. Ether way i lost all interest in this thread. Bye!!

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Last night a representative from ZOS joined my guild on teamspeak for a roughly two hour discussion on the game, including what we feel is wrong with the game right now (and yes, we brought up a lot of hot topics on the forums like stamina vs magicka, vet rank levelling, templar/nightblade issues, discrepancy between armor and weapon types, so on and so forth) as well as what we'd like to see in the future.

Unfortunately it was requested that none of what was said be posted outside of our member forums, so I cant relay anything specific. All I'll say is that they definitely do see what gets suggested and posted on these forums, most top guilds are concerned about the same issues as the average player, and that ZOS is really working hard to improve things for everyone. There are a -ton- of changes coming up, and others in the works for later on, that will bring a huge improvement to the game, especially quality of life fixes, balance changes, and improvements to endgame.

Just have patience.

i dont want to generalise. but a large percentage of the casual players nowadays have done their years of being the harcore power gamers . Thats before children and proper jobs made that level of dedication to gaming an imposibility. These people however have a wealth of experience and are often in the position of being able to see both sides of the coin.
Choosing to ignore such people in favor of this generations power gamers simply cos they assume they are the most knowledgable about this game is simply a mistake imo.

I cant speak for every other guild that Zenimax speaks to, but my guild in particular is absolutely not what you'd consider the 'power gamer' type. Almost all of our members are older, we hold down jobs, most of us are ex military, we dont play the game 20 hours a day and we're certainly not the type of people that focus on min-maxing stats and having the best times for trial runs or the best pvp group around. If anything we're very much representative of the average ESO player.

It's entirely possible that some of the guilds ZOS is doing these interviews with are the powergamer type, but you should at least be aware that not -all- of them are, so zenimax is getting a wide range of feedback from a large variety of players in the game.

Personally, and from what I can gather from a thread such as this, it isnt ER or any other guild talking with the Devs that is the issue. Its the information the Devs give to you, and not the rest of us.

Like you said:

Unfortunately it was requested that none of what was said be posted outside of our member forums

I dont think the dev gave you or anyone else, any big secrets. At least not intentionally. And it kind of sucks that the devs are supposedly so active with some guilds, while they seem to be, while maybe not, completely ignoring their own forums. Most of us are able to sort through the posts of whines and suggestions, and tell the difference, a Dev should also be able to.

We even got a Developer counter in our profile, I wonder how many got more than 0..

hi all , this just reminds me so much of rift and look where that ended

Sirlex wrote: »

BadgerRider1 wrote: »

Sirlex wrote: »

Any press is good press.

I am certain that a particular owner of an NBA team would disagree with you on that!

he made 2 billion dollars off the sell of his team. I don't think he would!

damn, I responded again.

Actually, he didn't make 2 billion dollars. His wife sold the team out from under him, claiming he was mentally unfit. The team itself was a family trust, meaning the money gets split up.

Phantorang wrote: »

But I guess its to much whining by people who think they are special and have a god given right to know more about the game than the rest of the "typical gamers", for you to bother reading it.

Im a "typical gamer" no DEV ever spoke to me i had no idea about the ultimate nerf whatever that is and yet i think you are just whining for the pleasure of whining.

What now?

Im sure you didnt even bother downloading the test server client, why the DEVs should listen to you, or me?

BadgerRider1 wrote: »

NakedSnake wrote: »

Its not ZO's job to post the contents of someone else's interview.

I would think that of greater concern would be that they can't. Done on their own time via 3rd party audio chat (I would presume also done outside of company premises and without company equipment as the company certainly would not sanction work without pay) would mean that there is no recording or transcript of the conversation available to the company.

One might be tempted to believe that this may preserve plausible deniability but with the availability of one button record features I think this would be merely wishful thinking.

I have to be missing something with this whole interview thing as I can't imagine PR, HR and legal allowing it to go on without their blessing.

Make no mistake; These are in no way unsanctioned "interviews" and the rep knows exactly what was asked and answered as well as what they can and cannot answer beforehand.
If they really wanted to they could simply post the questions and answers as an ask us anything segment but are in no way obligated to throw us a bone without the proper prompting.

I really hope ZOS doesn't listen to just that guilds suggestions because that would be a load of ***. If they are just using their suggestions they need to realize not everyone wants it how they want it.

Gisgo wrote: »

Venithar wrote: »

@Gisgo‌ As for the special treatment said guilds may get, you should go back and read my first post in this thread.

Ok look at this from a different perspective.

What would you do as a DEV?
a - do not speak with anyone
b - speak with everyone (not really possible)
c - speak with a sample of the playerbase

Another perspective:
I am a professional gardener: i design and make gardens from scratch.
Whenever im called for a new job, the first thing i do is to ask my customer: "did you already have something in mind?".
Does this mean i am going to do what he suggests? Hell no! If i did most of the gardens wouldnt survive the first summer.
However, asking and understanding his opinion and needs is still a necessity.

The DEVs are listening to part of the customers (not being possible to do otherwise) to understand what are their concerns.
It doesnt mean they are going to do what suggested.
In fact they dont, and maybe they should

3 Alternatives, thats how far your imagination stretches? How about they share the same info with everyone? While speaking with only a few is ok, the rest of us should also learn about what direction the game goes and get confirmations on how game mechanics works.

The Devs thinks the typical players and their forums are to whiny to post in.

The typical players thinks the devs dont do their job with bugs and game balance and lack of communication.


No wonder these forums are in its current state.

This is of course not the truth, but if we read some of the posts in this thread, it would be easy to come to that conclusion.