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Wait so arenas PvP is confirmed?
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pecheckler✭✭✭✭✭Competitive PvP is the number one driving force of high levels of player retention in most MMORPGs and ARPGs. Personally i'm beyond that though as since i've found Smite I have little desire to play any PvP in reminiscent of guild wars/WoW battlegrounds/fury/warhammer online or traditional DotA games.End the tedious inventory management game.0 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭pecheckler wrote: »Competitive PvP is the number one driving force of high levels of player retention in most MMORPGs and ARPGs. Personally i'm beyond that though as since i've found Smite I have little desire to play any PvP in reminiscent of guild wars/WoW battlegrounds/fury/warhammer online or traditional DotA games.
Hah, no its not. Pvpers and end game raiders are the minority for mmorpgs and pvp is not even remotely responsible for player retention.Edited by Arsenic_Touch on June 12, 2014 4:58PM☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB3 -
Caroloces✭✭✭✭✭To expand on this idea (and this is just my imagination running riot), wouldn't it be awesome to allow guilds that meet a certain criteria to build their own keeps (player housing is a much requested feature). These would be instanced, of course, but it would allow for social activities (emotes for dining, playing chess, dancing, etc. etc.) and an opportunity for members of a guild to get to know one another. As part of this scenario, a mild form of PVP in which players could engage one another in jousts. Players would not die, they might acquiesce in some fashion to indicate defeat. This would also serve the purpose of allowing players to investigate their skills and thoughtfully adjust their builds without facing real enemies.
I know this is pie-in-the-sky, but I'd like to see more on the forums on dreams and wishes for ESO. Perhaps there could be another category on the forums for that very purpose. Tell us about your wildest dreams for the future of ESO!0 -
Lkory✭✭✭Kingslayer wrote: »ha! i hope they do add one...
1. it will force them to balance classes out.
2. wont have to deal with 1v50's
3. probly gonna have to work on the amount of times you can be cc'd " being hit my nothing but cc spells till you are dead doesnt rly seem like pvp to me" would have been a nice thing for them to have tought of in the first place.. if i might add..
4. idk tho.. they will need to change ALOT...could almost call it redoing..but if they are willing to morph the game in big ways for the best.. no matter what... im all for it. gonna be alot of work tho.
Go play a shooter please, one where every one has the same abilities and the same best guns available to all of them.
I will post it again for you: http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/6773-Five-Years-of-Warcraft-Speaking-With-Blizzard-s-Rob-Pardo
You keep leaving this everywhere One company or mans opinion means squat!
Lol, i have the same reaction when i read your posts. At least that guy made a game and worked on a live product for at least 5 years. So his opinion and experience is a lot more valid than yours at least!
0 -
Mablung✭✭✭✭✭Everyone is aware that the 3v3 at E3 was just a demo for pvp not a demo for arena pvp right?Edited by Mablung on June 12, 2014 5:18PM1 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭Everyone is aware that the 3v3 at E3 was just a demo for pvp not a demo for arena pvp right?
Those bothering to actually read what ZOS said I imagine yes.
It seems the main issue here is the arena history in mmos people are scared of. The impact of arena is greater in games with distinct server or smaller server pools. This pulls players away from open world, raid, dungeons, battlegrounds and other systems into yet another instanced queuing system.
ESO is a pure mega-server game. If arena is implemented across the entire population it would not impact shard balanced areas of the game very much at all. You would still see the same amount of players in shared area of the world. Some people freaking out do not realize this.
All that matters is how ZOS implements arena to work with the game (whenever this is done). It is not a matter of lore. Arena was/is a huge part within lore and game. The first game was called Arena and was about touring arenas and meeting city teams.
The main complaint from most here is based on the history of arena in mmos. This has NOTHING to do with TES. They can add it eventually in a way friendly to both lore and mechanics. If you do not want to play arena then don't.
Edited by Tamanous on June 12, 2014 5:56PM3 -
ularis✭YES YES AND YES !!!!!!!! Finally just when patch with this PVP content will come i resub this game , THANK ZOS !!!!2
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everyone is aware that the 3v3 at E3 was just a demo for pvp not a demo for arena pvp right?
Those bothering to actually read what ZOS said I imagine yes.
It seems the main issue here is the arena history in mmos people are scared of. The impact of arena is greater in games with distinct server or smaller server pools. This pulls players away from open world, raid, dungeons, battlegrounds and other systems into yet another instanced queuing system.
ESO is a pure mega-server game. If arena is implemented across the entire population it would not impact shard balanced areas of the game very much at all. You would still see the same amount of players in shared area of the world. Some people freaking out do not realize this.
All that matters is how ZOS implements arena to work with the game (whenever this is done). It is not a matter of lore. Arena was/is a huge part within lore and game. The first game was called Arena and was about touring arenas and meeting city teams.
The main complaint from most here is based on the history of arena in mmos. This has NOTHING to do with TES. They can add it eventually in a way friendly to both lore and mechanics. If you do not want to play arena then don't.
And you follow the same wishful thinking mentallity others here have.
Some just dont believe zen can include arenas without breaking the overall balance.If they wanted to do so , they would need to add a system like the one GW2 got , where items/scores/how the skills work and their powers (which means balance is divided) , are all closed in another space that does not interfere with the PvE/PvP zone they got.
For now , i dont see zen being ready to make such change and it would require a lot of time to make it all right , thus the reason i say that in an year or more in the future , they might be ready.
PS: People tend to be less merciful if they warn someone and they still do something stupid. WoW had no idea what they were doing with their arenas , zen does and many are telling them before hand this can be a mistake.
If they still do it and break the balance , you can bet many will leave the game without even looking back.Edited by Nox_Aeterna on June 12, 2014 6:29PM"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
ularis✭No rewards in arenas. Only way it would work. You want to get reward, you do real PVP in Cryo. Not this garbage that can be fixed for easy points.
Cyrodiil is not real PVP rofl ... This is just running with 100 ppl zerg and take emty keeps killing some pve npc in the way and sometimes eat 10-20 ppl .
1 -
Kingslayer✭✭✭Kingslayer wrote: »ha! i hope they do add one...
1. it will force them to balance classes out.
2. wont have to deal with 1v50's
3. probly gonna have to work on the amount of times you can be cc'd " being hit my nothing but cc spells till you are dead doesnt rly seem like pvp to me" would have been a nice thing for them to have tought of in the first place.. if i might add..
4. idk tho.. they will need to change ALOT...could almost call it redoing..but if they are willing to morph the game in big ways for the best.. no matter what... im all for it. gonna be alot of work tho.
Go play a shooter please, one where every one has the same abilities and the same best guns available to all of them.
I will post it again for you: http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/6773-Five-Years-of-Warcraft-Speaking-With-Blizzard-s-Rob-Pardo
You keep leaving this everywhere One company or mans opinion means squat!
Lol, i have the same reaction when i read your posts. At least that guy made a game and worked on a live product for at least 5 years. So his opinion and experience is a lot more valid than yours at least!
Are you like the Forum joke or something?. Seriously man you are comical.1 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭These balance issues allude to my point why they should focus on making cyrodiil better.
soon as they put this arena in this forum will be filled with people whining demanding the nerf bat.
at least with cyrodiil the game don't have to perfectly balanced and they can lay off the nerf bat.Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak2 -
ularis✭These balance issues allude to my point why they should focus on making cyrodiil better.
soon as they put this arena in this forum will be filled with people whining demanding the nerf bat.
at least with cyrodiil the game don't have to perfectly balanced and they can lay off the nerf bat.
Vampires,Dragonknight with his shield bash,Sorc with endless aoe , Immortal templar , Bowmans with hugeee damage,Nightblades are useless and lots of more are you dreaming ? this is already happening inbalance is huge and this will be even worse arenas can ballance this a little bit but always its something .
Edited by ularis on June 12, 2014 11:45PM0 -
ularis✭sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO wrote: »I'm having a hard time understanding the reasoning and logic behind NOT wanting more options to pvp?
To those saying it will kill off cyrodil....WHY? Theres enough ppl inthis thread that love cyrodil pvp who have voiced out their opinions, just as there are those that WANT an arena as a different option,
Sounds good to me following the lines of "play as you want" right?
Don't get me wrong, i LOVE cyrodil...but ONCE IN AWHILE it would be nice to go up against an even number, instead of having to sneak around waiting to catch a small group, or seiging nonstop getting kills off OILS and ***...ONCE IN AWHILE, it be nice to see how i and my opponents fares when theres nowhere to run/hide and straight out FIGHT.
Please don't try to FORCE ppl into a way that YOU like.Thats selfish no?
Do you know what actualy is selfish? People who bought ESO knew there wont be battlegrounds, they knew there are no arenas. They knew there is only Cyrodiil.
They knew this MMORPG is focused on lore.
Yet there are still so many cries that are trying to push their idea to game we bought! We bought it due to lore, and war of three banners. Yet people wanting arenas are trying to force us to play it their way... But that is cool right?
No one tell you and others about TESO PVP content, NO ONE from ZOS dev team never tell "There will be no Arenas or Battlegrounds" dont be funny, Most of GHardcore PVP players want that if u dont like it dont play it stay on your loved Cyrrodiil no one force u to make arenas and if Cyrodiil die because of it , well ... this just tell u MOST of players dont like it and like other PVP simple . So yes u are selfisch here .
Edited by ularis on June 13, 2014 12:22AM1 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭Arsenic_Touch wrote: »One server being locked out when it's basically 900 (the estimate) players across 3 alliance does not counter the statement that cyrodil is dead. But when you see that the majority of the campaigns themselves are sitting at 1 bar, then you can clearly say that it's not that active. They pretty much admitted it with the sticky post where they want to reduce the amount of campaigns.
Is it really locked at 900 players? So 300 players per faction? I thought it was locked at around 1k players per faction for 3k players per campaign.
Really bad sign if it is locked at 900 total players. Way short of the pre-launch hype.0 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭wrlifeboil wrote: »Arsenic_Touch wrote: »One server being locked out when it's basically 900 (the estimate) players across 3 alliance does not counter the statement that cyrodil is dead. But when you see that the majority of the campaigns themselves are sitting at 1 bar, then you can clearly say that it's not that active. They pretty much admitted it with the sticky post where they want to reduce the amount of campaigns.
Is it really locked at 900 players? So 300 players per faction? I thought it was locked at around 1k players per faction for 3k players per campaign.
Really bad sign if it is locked at 900 total players. Way short of the pre-launch hype.
Other estamates put it at 600 to 900 per alliance, but again, those numbers are tiny compared to the total population and the whole "people are too low of a level" doesn't cut it.Edited by Arsenic_Touch on June 13, 2014 1:10AM☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »I understand many players not wanting this to turn into an e-sport thing.
But there are ways to add arena's that fit the lore AND debunk some of the concerns many players have for it.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110223/cyrodiil-and-arena-s-coexisting-peacefully?new=1
Cyrodiil pvp is not really pvp. It doesn't require skill in pvp since all you really need to do is to follow the zerg. There is no way to pit similarly skilled teams against each other. That's one reason why so many players like AvA and not PvP. If you're part of the faceroll (AD faction), you wouldn't want it to change. You'd want eso pvp to be AvA so you could be a cog in the big faction.
It's like in WoW with 40 man BGs like AV and IoC where it is possible to do very little as an undergeared player but still get honor points for a team win. The weaker players tend to get slaughtered or are ineffective in the smaller 10 man BGs where the areas are smaller and it is harder to hide in a crowd. No reason to expect that the same principle wouldn't apply to players in eso. So it isn't a surprise that these players wouldn't want pvp on a smaller scale in eso.2 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭
Sad but true... this is what would have made me resub or add more gtc`s once i`m out as Arena PvP is always fresh like a shooter where people always do something different.
Guess its back to another MMO, any MMO with some kind of PvP options...0 -
Mablung✭✭✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »
Sad but true... this is what would have made me resub or add more gtc`s once i`m out as Arena PvP is always fresh like a shooter where people always do something different.
Guess its back to another MMO, any MMO with some kind of PvP options...
I know that F2P is not popular but SWtoRs works. Been having a blast in huttball, which btw is the best pvp map/design ever!1 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Everyone is aware that the 3v3 at E3 was just a demo for pvp not a demo for arena pvp right?
Those bothering to actually read what ZOS said I imagine yes.
It seems the main issue here is the arena history in mmos people are scared of. The impact of arena is greater in games with distinct server or smaller server pools. This pulls players away from open world, raid, dungeons, battlegrounds and other systems into yet another instanced queuing system.
ESO is a pure mega-server game. If arena is implemented across the entire population it would not impact shard balanced areas of the game very much at all. You would still see the same amount of players in shared area of the world. Some people freaking out do not realize this.
All that matters is how ZOS implements arena to work with the game (whenever this is done). It is not a matter of lore. Arena was/is a huge part within lore and game. The first game was called Arena and was about touring arenas and meeting city teams.
The main complaint from most here is based on the history of arena in mmos. This has NOTHING to do with TES. They can add it eventually in a way friendly to both lore and mechanics. If you do not want to play arena then don't.
And you follow the same wishful thinking mentallity others here have.
Some just dont believe zen can include arenas without breaking the overall balance.If they wanted to do so , they would need to add a system like the one GW2 got , where items/scores/how the skills work and their powers (which means balance is divided) , are all closed in another space that does not interfere with the PvE/PvP zone they got.
For now , i dont see zen being ready to make such change and it would require a lot of time to make it all right , thus the reason i say that in an year or more in the future , they might be ready.
PS: People tend to be less merciful if they warn someone and they still do something stupid. WoW had no idea what they were doing with their arenas , zen does and many are telling them before hand this can be a mistake.
If they still do it and break the balance , you can bet many will leave the game without even looking back.
I am not suggesting that ZOS will add Arena in a way that works for everyone. I am not suggesting it wouldn't impact the game in negative ways. I merely laid out the facts as to why it impacts ESO less due to how the game runs on a mega-server. The optimal method of creating arena for everyone to participate in may not be the method ZOS chooses be it for technical difficulties or laziness.
I will be frank ... I am tired of lazy readers thinking what I say on narrowly focused discussions are my more global view points. It is simply discussions on a single topic.
Someone previously mentioned that Arena in TES was a single player experience and that multi-player arena isn't in lore. Well not ****ing **** Sherlock, this is now a multi-player game and thus arena would most likely have a multi-player version now that it is possible. It could be added in an extremely lore friendly way the same way the pve version was created: touring arena's through major cities but player groups could now be teams.
The mechanic is NOT lore. The concept within the game's world is lore. This forum needs to have far fewer people who argue for the same of arguing.Edited by Tamanous on June 13, 2014 1:21AM0 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ESO is a pure mega-server game. If arena is implemented across the entire population it would not impact shard balanced areas of the game very much at all. You would still see the same amount of players in shared area of the world. Some people freaking out do not realize this.
You are incorrect there.
WoW has a few server pools, but everyone plays in the same pvp pool. Yet the world is empty due the queue pvp available.
There was more action on a single server pre Arena than now with the pools.All that matters is how ZOS implements arena to work with the game (whenever this is done). It is not a matter of lore. Arena was/is a huge part within lore and game. The first game was called Arena and was about touring arenas and meeting city teams.
Also this is incorrect.
The first TES game was called Arena, because the first intention was that a player fights various teams of other cities in a Gladiator like environment.
This however was not how Arena was released, it was an RPG and not a Arena pvp game.The main complaint from most here is based on the history of arena in mmos. This has NOTHING to do with TES. They can add it eventually in a way friendly to both lore and mechanics. If you do not want to play arena then don't.
Also this is incorrect.
When TBC added Arena´s, then yes nobody had to play them in theory. But the truth was, if you didn't then you did not get any loot to be competitive at the BG´s.
Besides that, to play 5 Arena games a week to become Gladiator is easier than playing a whole Warzone for a month.
Fact is, if ZO add´s an Arena and that Arena has any type of reward, then world pvp like it exist´s now would not stand a chance.
Its the same issue that ZO had pre release when dungeons gave massive XP. Nobody did the quests and the result was a massive bug invasion as there was no testing.2 -
Hiply✭✭✭These balance issues allude to my point why they should focus on making cyrodiil better.
soon as they put this arena in this forum will be filled with people whining demanding the nerf bat.
at least with cyrodiil the game don't have to perfectly balanced and they can lay off the nerf bat.
Vampires,Dragonknight with his shield bash,Sorc with endless aoe , Immortal templar , Bowmans with hugeee damage,Nightblades are useless and lots of more are you dreaming ? this is already happening inbalance is huge and this will be even worse arenas can ballance this a little bit but always its something .
You had me up to "Immortal Templar" and "Bowmans with huge damage"...then I knew you were either playing some other game or doing way too many drugs.Edited by Hiply on June 13, 2014 1:44AM0 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »
Sad but true... this is what would have made me resub or add more gtc`s once i`m out as Arena PvP is always fresh like a shooter where people always do something different.
Guess its back to another MMO, any MMO with some kind of PvP options...
I know that F2P is not popular but SWtoRs works. Been having a blast in huttball, which btw is the best pvp map/design ever!
I know i played it and might be back there if they don`t add something new here...
I don`t mind their F2P i subscribed anyway and it did bring a lot more players to the game.
I`d just rather have it here but it does not look like its in their immediate plans.... and its a shame i don`t think it would take that long to add 2-3 small PvP maps with objectives. Add some cool items to grind for and you keep the players happy... even the casual people in my guild did some instanced PvP in other MMO`s... you know, some fun fast action. The funny thing is that none of them likes Cyrodil as they find it lacks the fast action + there is no team balance, one side always has more people.0 -
Lkory✭✭✭A lot of peeps mention Arenas and Battlegrounds. There is a huge difference between the 2. I could explain it to you but i rather just let scream at each other.
Battleground (10+vs10+) could be nice and a more controlled competitive environment than RvR. Those dont require every class to be the best but it requires intelligence and cooperation.
Arena... well define arena's for me please? :P
And the biggest problem does not come from the balance...it comes from the community that exploits the lack of balance to win by sheer force and stupidity.Edited by Lkory on June 13, 2014 2:37AM1 -
Vendersleigh✭✭✭Arenas, no thanks. Arenas lead to rankings, rankings lead to arena players screaming for (and often getting) 1:1 balancing that has nothing to do with the synergistic gameplay of complimentary classes, poor 1:1 balancing decisions lead to broken group play in both PvE and RvR.
No, no thanks. I finally found a post-DAoC battleground that works...let's not f it up.
I am very much in agreement with this.2 -
ularis✭These balance issues allude to my point why they should focus on making cyrodiil better.
soon as they put this arena in this forum will be filled with people whining demanding the nerf bat.
at least with cyrodiil the game don't have to perfectly balanced and they can lay off the nerf bat.
Vampires,Dragonknight with his shield bash,Sorc with endless aoe , Immortal templar , Bowmans with hugeee damage,Nightblades are useless and lots of more are you dreaming ? this is already happening inbalance is huge and this will be even worse arenas can ballance this a little bit but always its something .
You had me up to "Immortal Templar" and "Bowmans with huge damage"...then I knew you were either playing some other game or doing way too many drugs.
Sorry then ,i mean 1v1 i know i know in teso find 1v1 i extremaly rare u probably never have this chance but use bran next time
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]
Edited by ZOS_SilviaS on June 13, 2014 4:25AM0 -
ularis✭wrlifeboil wrote: »ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »I understand many players not wanting this to turn into an e-sport thing.
But there are ways to add arena's that fit the lore AND debunk some of the concerns many players have for it.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110223/cyrodiil-and-arena-s-coexisting-peacefully?new=1
Cyrodiil pvp is not really pvp. It doesn't require skill in pvp since all you really need to do is to follow the zerg. There is no way to pit similarly skilled teams against each other. That's one reason why so many players like AvA and not PvP. If you're part of the faceroll (AD faction), you wouldn't want it to change. You'd want eso pvp to be AvA so you could be a cog in the big faction.
It's like in WoW with 40 man BGs like AV and IoC where it is possible to do very little as an undergeared player but still get honor points for a team win. The weaker players tend to get slaughtered or are ineffective in the smaller 10 man BGs where the areas are smaller and it is harder to hide in a crowd. No reason to expect that the same principle wouldn't apply to players in eso. So it isn't a surprise that these players wouldn't want pvp on a smaller scale in eso.
U Have the point , AVA is not true and pure PVP , this should be just some break to true pvp content not main .
Edited by ularis on June 13, 2014 4:05AM0 -
Lkory✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »I understand many players not wanting this to turn into an e-sport thing.
But there are ways to add arena's that fit the lore AND debunk some of the concerns many players have for it.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/110223/cyrodiil-and-arena-s-coexisting-peacefully?new=1
Cyrodiil pvp is not really pvp. It doesn't require skill in pvp since all you really need to do is to follow the zerg. There is no way to pit similarly skilled teams against each other. That's one reason why so many players like AvA and not PvP. If you're part of the faceroll (AD faction), you wouldn't want it to change. You'd want eso pvp to be AvA so you could be a cog in the big faction.
It's like in WoW with 40 man BGs like AV and IoC where it is possible to do very little as an undergeared player but still get honor points for a team win. The weaker players tend to get slaughtered or are ineffective in the smaller 10 man BGs where the areas are smaller and it is harder to hide in a crowd. No reason to expect that the same principle wouldn't apply to players in eso. So it isn't a surprise that these players wouldn't want pvp on a smaller scale in eso.
U Have the point , AVA is not true and pure PVP , this should be just some break to true pvp content not main .
What is true pvp content?
Ill just say Cyrodil is great with an organised group. I gave the sorc negate example earlier to dominate during an fort invasion even they have 3 times the numbers. They are ways to beat the zerg. Sure they will always be a stronger zerg. What is pvp if not winning, losing and finding way to beat a larger group by being organized (And i dont consider comparing DPS of two classes and deciding based on metadata is intelligence, more and more i think we, gamer, should never have had acces to this).
I like open world ganking, battlegrounds, arena, rvr, they are all pvp in their own ways. You saw what leaderboards on trials did with the community...imagine 3v3...it would be even worst. ESO was not built to an E-sport.Edited by Lkory on June 13, 2014 4:27AM1
