AlexDougherty wrote: »

Ok, I read it, didn't think you are crazy, but didn't agree either.

Class skills should be a mixture of weak and strong skills, like any other skill line, they shouldn't stronger or weaker at any level than skills from other skill lines.

It's not about what you learn, but how you use them, weapon skills should be equal to class skills, as should mage/Fighter/Undaunted skill lines. It's a matter of balance and preference. Anyone who doesn't have a mix of class and other skills will get owned in PVP, as will anyone who chooses the wrong skills.

But that's just my opinion.

Did you understand the whole concept that all the class skills would eventually be as strong as all the rest?

I never liked having a 'class' enforced and this would be one way to both break that model & make questing more worthwhile for those who do not enjoy it for its own sake.

Personally I think they would struggle to do this from the current position but a similar suggestion might be to allow people to add a skill tree of your choice from another class at VR1 and VR

Would certainly make PvP less predictable when the NB suddenly spawns a Clanfear, your Sorceror starts siphoning or your Templar bolt escapes...

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

I'd like to think about class skill lines as "pack and parcel". And as such, they make sense, because they bring flavor and identity. Allow to arbitrarily mix and match any one skill from any one class skill line, and that identity is lost, no matter how much weight you've measured to it beforehand.

I would rather have an identity of my character over an identity of a class, but I am looking at it from a TES perspective.

Players will always travel the road of least resistance they are able to find, because punishing yourself over any length of time isn't fun. As a very likely result of your proposed change, we would have a Sorc/DK/NB hybrid running around, with only those skills equipped that are perceived as giving the most bang for your buck.

Can you tell me the 5 best skills in the game? Can you really tell me the 5 skills you would choose would be everyone's choice?

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Would this also include the passives the each class gets?

Oh sure, throw me a curveball.

I guess the passives would have to be built around that skill tree, so yes.

Personally, terrible idea. That would only create the exact thing you are attempting to prevent. The ultimate cookie cutter game. Every character will be using the same skills at the end in your scenario.

All of these "Nerf them!" threads are generally the result of someone seeing another character do something they can't and being jealous of it. In your scenario, all you would see is every character switching their skills to be able to do what they just saw someone else doing.

After a long enough time... the end game would have EVERY character exactly the same.

Falmer wrote: »

Personally, terrible idea. That would only create the exact thing you are attempting to prevent. The ultimate cookie cutter game. Every character will be using the same skills at the end in your scenario.

All of these "Nerf them!" threads are generally the result of someone seeing another character do something they can't and being jealous of it. In your scenario, all you would see is every character switching their skills to be able to do what they just saw someone else doing.

After a long enough time... the end game would have EVERY character exactly the same.

I understand the fear to have this reaction, but again I have to ask, what are the 5 most powerful skills in your mind. Do you really think everyone is going to have the same answer?

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Initially, no. But what about peer pressure? In a competitive game, does it pay to not be at your best, to the best of your (and everyone else's) knowledge?

I guess I don't believe their is a 5 skill set that will always win.

Can you list the top 10 skills in the game? Do you think everyone will have that list?

Would someone be able to make a list to beat that list?

I'm going to use a dose of hyperbole here, not to be mean, but to ask a question: If you gave everyone in game an "I win" skill (which does exactly that, it let's you win at anything you attempt to do. Doesn't matter what the cooldown is, that's balancing :P), what do you think would be the odds of someone not using it, compared to the whole player base?

First, not to be mean, but if you have to use hyperbole to make a point, I don't think the point is going to be valid.

Yes, of course if there was a instant win button, most people would use it.

If you can show me what that instant button would look like in game, we can see if it is truly a creature or just a myth created from fear.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

The reason i would not this is that , they made no spear/polearm skills line outside the templar class :P and that is my fav line in the game and the reason i even made a templar mostly.

So i would rather have the classes removed so everyone can play anything over having them making the class skills worse.

Please read the whole OP.

Blackwidow wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

The reason i would not this is that , they made no spear/polearm skills line outside the templar class :P and that is my fav line in the game and the reason i even made a templar mostly.

So i would rather have the classes removed so everyone can play anything over having them making the class skills worse.

Please read the whole OP.

Hum , i did reread slowly this time , got the idea , still think removing the classes would be more resonable , unless we are talking about 1 quest per skill tree , which would be a resonable amount 12 , we could have up to 72 quests if it was one quest/skill. I dont know how long it would take zen to create 72 new quests , still im guessing that would be quite time consuming.

In the end, your idea does seems better than just opening the classes to me from a player point of view , even if it seems a lot of work on the devs end.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

The reason i would not this is that , they made no spear/polearm skills line outside the templar class :P and that is my fav line in the game and the reason i even made a templar mostly.

So i would rather have the classes removed so everyone can play anything over having them making the class skills worse.

Please read the whole OP.

Hum , i did reread slowly this time , got the idea , still think removing the classes would be more resonable , unless we are talking about 1 quest per skill tree , which would be a resonable amount 12 , we could have up to 72 quests if it was one quest/skill. I dont know how long it would take zen to create 72 new quests , still im guessing that would be quite time consuming.

In the end, your idea does seems better than just opening the classes to me from a player point of view , even if it seems a lot of work on the devs end.

Thank you. I was actually thinking a skill line per quest.

Sounds like you missed WoW and several other MMOs.

Tiered spells and abilities have been done ad nauseam in many other formats. I have no particular issue with this but it's simply not the path that EOS chose.

Isn't respeccing painful enough already?

While I do like the idea, purely because it kinda gets rid of class separation (and that is a good thing for TES, in my eyes)..

However, I don't think it would at all fix the "this is too powerful" aspect, nor do I think it would fix the problem of folks not feeling as if they can play how they want. Instead of saying "you much be xyz class to run with us" it'd turn into "you must have xyz skills on your bar".

Any time there is a lot of choice the min and maxing crowd will number crunch to find out the best possible build. Any time there is a DPS race boss mechanic, or anything where time is an important factor, any sub par builds are going to be excluded. Those two things aren't going to change.

No, I can't list the most powerful skills in the game. I honestly couldn't even tell you which class I think is the most powerful. There will be a best skillset though, if the focus becomes skill instead of class (and really there kinda is now). The class thing is specific because of the specific skills of that class. There is usually a build or two that is preferred, even now, because of certain skills. Like the whole DK destro-staff stuff.

Perhaps this game could be the first ever to have things so balanced that people will allow any spec/skill combo in their groups.. I just doubt it. People are jerks like that. They don't seem to care that a build can meet the minimum dps to pass.. they just want the highest dps build there is. That, of course, is mostly referring to pugs. Guilds are a tiny bit better, in my experience, at allowing someone to play as they see fit provided minimum dps checks are still met (minimum dps checks in this case just mean "this is the minimum amount of dps each person has to do in order for the boss to be defeated by the enrage timer".. where that amount is the same for each player)

So, I agree with the idea just on the idea alone, but I don't think it'd fix the balancing issues the game currently faces.

Blackwidow wrote: »

I think class skills should be the weakest skills in the game

I think there should be a stronger version of each and every class skill out in the world

You just described Templars

Why not completely remove the classes? Not make them available or anything, completely remove them, it might be possible when spellcrafting/spell schools are available, which should have been the way from the start. No whining, no nerfs necessary, just the good old TES way, no stupid skills/classes but the regular TES system, the one that should have been from the start. You want "Templar"? Go Restoration school. Want "Nightblade"? Go Illusion + Melee and so on...

Blackwidow wrote: »

Lalai wrote: »

While I do like the idea, purely because it kinda gets rid of class separation (and that is a good thing for TES, in my eyes)..

Exactly.

However, I don't think it would at all fix the "this is too powerful" aspect

It does not have to.

As stated before, the skills might still need a tweak here and there, but atleast we would all have access to them.

nor do I think it would fix the problem of folks not feeling as if they can play how they want. Instead of saying "you much be xyz class to run with us" it'd turn into "you must have xyz skills on your bar".

I disagree with this premise completely.

Right now, you can not see people's DPS and it should stay that way.

There will be so many combinations, it will be nearly impossible to judge what another person is using in combat.

Any time there is a lot of choice the min and maxing crowd will number crunch to find out the best possible build.

What is it? If it was possible, don't you think we would have that knowledge by now?

The mere fact that there are so many skills and so many counter skills and utility skills, and so many buffing skills, it would be impossible to list the absolute best 5 skills to use at all times.

Right now the best builds come from Sorcs and DKs, the proof of that is that those are the ones pugs want (and pugs will go so far as to tell others they can't come). I don't do that research for this game (the min/maxing things). It's not something I'm concerned with for this game. I'm not even max level so trials are a long ways off. I have done it quite often for various other MMOs in which I've actively raided.

There is absolutely a preferred build for dps, and people can absolutely see dps numbers right now. There's an addon to do it, just like every other MMO I can think of. You can disagree all you want to, but I think the case for how people act in end game dungeons and raiding has been set by any other MMO that has included these things on the market, including this one as it stands.

Rift had one of the most diverse skill picking setups when it first came out.. and this type of thing still happened. In fact, it seems like the more skills you introduce, the more problems it creates in terms of balance. WoW has since reduced it's talent trees to fairly meaningless things, with very little choice, because the cookie cutter thing was such a problem. Shadowbane (where you had tons of choice because you distributed all your stats, and they had runes, plus skill percentages.. tons of possibilities, probably more even than ESO) still had cookie cutter stuff to stick by.

It is not impossible for thousands of people to test skills and come up with the five best ones. Some people actual find that aspect of the game extremely fun to do, and that's what they'll devote hours and hours of time to.. going over their results with other theorycrafters on reddit, and in forums, until they figure out what the best possible is. There may be a skill or two that gets changed out, or a skill or two that they argue over.. but by and large it's going to be the same few skills that end up getting picked.

They could have two builds for dps that do relatively the same damage, one for tank, and one two for healers... heck they could have three for each and it still wouldn't fit the play as you want playstyle. Those three would still be the required ones for dungeons because people are jerks. There is not going to be a fix all for this save for all skills being balanced.. which I just don't think is possible based on MMO history, and present scenarios. Best they can do is exactly what every MMO does now and constantly tweak stuff so that the flavour of the month build keeps changing.