Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

sParkSnare wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl‌, lol, really? My comment wasn't a jab at you, I wasn't even thinking about your posts when I wrote that. Nor did I quote you or refer to anything you wrote, so I'm not sure why you apparently feel slighted.

Ah, sorry, it's hard to tell trolls from people just remarking nowadays . I thought you were trolling.

No worries. I agree it's often hard to differentiate innocent comments from troll posts on these forums.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

It's just a difference in what words we're using for the terminology, not the effects. The game uses power/damage interchangeably, for example buffing yourself with a Rage glyph that says it adds +17 power simply adds to the Weapon Damage listed on your character sheet, and Momentum just adds to the Weapon Damage on your character sheet by the exact percentage stated as well.

See this is the point I'm trying to make, they arent used interchangeably - Momentum doesn't increase your WD by 10%, it increases your WP by 10%. As in it increases both the contribution of your Weapon Damage and your Max Stamina by 10%. You actual damage done to mobs goes up by 10% - if it just increased WD by 10% then the same point you're making about Siphoning Strikes would apply and the actual change in damage would be about half of the reported 10%.

Same thing with Power of the Light, it increases Power (Weapon Power) of attacks versus the target by 2% per stack with up to 5 stacks. At full stacks it increases your Weapon Power and actual damage done by 10%, if it was increasing your WD by 10% your actual damage done would only go up about 5%.

You're right about that Rage Glyph, but I also kind of think it's either a bug or a tooltip error since it doesn't seem consistent with other uses of "Power" or "Weapon Power".

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

but that's really not anything to do with the stat or what I was talking about in regards to the nightblade guy complaining about a "22% raw damage debuff" that doesn't exist .

You are, of course, 100% correct here Sorry, I did not mean to derail the thread but since I replied I couldn't help but mention and try to clarify the WP/WD confusion.

I play a NB and I honestly don't feel a difference with these patchs for my class in terms of balance so let me see.

Path of Darkness (Never used it, still won't use it after the patch)
Veil of Blades can crit( Cool, but how does that help someone like me who doesn't use sap essence spam)

bla bla bla a bunch of updated tooltips, yep okay understandable and haste now has extra damage on heavy attacks, awesome I'll totally use it now.

monkeymystic wrote: »

stewie_801 wrote: »

monkeymystic wrote: »

Haven't you heard? ZOS doesn't listen, and they are taking away survivability of DKs too, when they are already struggling at the bottom in 1.2 patch in terms of every single role.

They nerfed Standard and buffed Veil of Blades (very similar ult) to become OP in the SAME patch. Doesn't this say something on how they do things?

They do things blindfolded, and they don't even realise they are stripping the DKs from having any unique points left, which the other 3 classes have (mobility, bolt escape, cloak, group healing, dispels, summons, crit surge type of healing, RANGE dps, and so on.

They don't even fix the weapon balance, so DKs are not forced into dress and staves to come even close to the rest after 1.2. It's a warrior class that is forced into mage equipment to try hard to even work, and now they are further nerfing it.

They are not happy until DKs are on the bottom with no survivability, no mobility, no range DPS, no "unique" points, zero escape/cloak abilities, bottom 2 in terms of dps and being forced into dresses and staves to do so, and lastly NO magicka regen.

If someone asks: "oh cool you play DK, what can they do that other classes can't?
The answer is: "nothing."

FYI veil of blades is not an ult, regular power.

yes it is an ultimate..
It is a morph of the consuming darkness ultimate. and they buffed Veil of Blades to become the strongest ultimate in the game after recent changes to classes.

whoops was thinking of veiled strike, too close of a name

monkeymystic wrote: »

stewie_801 wrote: »

monkeymystic wrote: »

Haven't you heard? ZOS doesn't listen, and they are taking away survivability of DKs too, when they are already struggling at the bottom in 1.2 patch in terms of every single role.

They nerfed Standard and buffed Veil of Blades (very similar ult) to become OP in the SAME patch. Doesn't this say something on how they do things?

They do things blindfolded, and they don't even realise they are stripping the DKs from having any unique points left, which the other 3 classes have (mobility, bolt escape, cloak, group healing, dispels, summons, crit surge type of healing, RANGE dps, and so on.

They don't even fix the weapon balance, so DKs are not forced into dress and staves to come even close to the rest after 1.2. It's a warrior class that is forced into mage equipment to try hard to even work, and now they are further nerfing it.

They are not happy until DKs are on the bottom with no survivability, no mobility, no range DPS, no "unique" points, zero escape/cloak abilities, bottom 2 in terms of dps and being forced into dresses and staves to do so, and lastly NO magicka regen.

If someone asks: "oh cool you play DK, what can they do that other classes can't?
The answer is: "nothing."

FYI veil of blades is not an ult, regular power.

yes it is an ultimate..
It is a morph of the consuming darkness ultimate. and they buffed Veil of Blades to become the strongest ultimate in the game after recent changes to classes.

Still a lame ability to use in my opinion, it's nice when you have it but in my opinion the damage is sometimes so crap that the temptation of going for something like soul harvest which gives 3% to crit thanks to the pressure points passive makes it much more desirable to have on my bar when I'm using my DPS build.

The sole reason that made standard of might so good was that you could root them with talons while keeping them locked in the AOE of the standard, NB's don't have anything like that. Everytime I've used veil of blades in PVP they'd notice immediately and just roll out of it and attempt to attack me with ranged attacks.

Not going to lie the potion buff on NB was nice, which is the only thing I've actually benefitted from with this last patch, otherwise nothing has really changed

I fail to see how exactly the nerf to Standard of Might and the buff to Veil of Blades makes VoB intrinsically better. Situationally better, sure. But not intrinsically. In a solo setting, then yes, Veil of Blades should perform better and give the caster more survivability. But in a group, it is a bit more of a tradeoff.

Running down the numbers.

Standard of Might
Range 15 meters, 8 meter diameter.
7 Fire damage every 1s + enemies take 50% less healing for 15s. Players in area take 20% less damage and deal 20% more damage. (The DoT will be buffed by Molten Whip if it is slotted; by how much I do not know.) Synergy skill - damages and immobilizes enemies.

Veil of Blades
Area around the NB, 5 meter diameter.
4 Magic damage every 0.5s, 70% snare, can crit, 15s duration. Players in ult take 30% less damage, caster takes 60% less. Synergy skill - Players can slip away (become invisible)

In a solo situation vs the environment, Veil of Blades is obviously superior. You cannot activate your own synergy skill, so the lack of a damaging synergy is a non-issue. The additional 40% damage reduction the VoB gives the caster a great deal more survivability. Whether or not it will deal more damage or not is a wild card. Per-second damage, VoB should be higher, but the SoM will give the DK 20% increased damage for the next 15s. What he does/uses in the following 15s will determine whether the 20% increased damage from SoM makes up for VoB's higher dot.

In a group environment, though, things become much more murky. Standard of Might will buff multiple peoples damage by 20% for 15s which will more than make up for the increase DoT damage of VoB. (While this is probably not apparent from a DPS #/s standpoint, as that 20% would show up as a boost to your teammates DPS and not your own.) The synergy skill in SoM is obviously superior, immobilizing enemies within the standard and damaging the enemy. Yes, the VoB will provide 10% more damage reduction, but then we get to the next point I would like to make. Standard of Might is far more forgiving and easy to use than Veil is. Ranged Nightblades will, if they want to hit the enemies and the tank with it, be forced to run into the thick of battle in order to properly place it. Veil of Blades is also a much smaller radius, (5m vs 8m,) meaning you will protect fewer people with it.

Tank NBs and melee DPS NBs will obviously not have as big of a positioning headache as ranged NBs will. But that said, melee DPS NBs usually prefer either Death Stroke/Soul Harvest for the spammability, quicker ult gain (Soul Harvest morph), and the extra damage aspect it provides (3% crit while slotted thanks to Pressure Points passive) or Soul Tether (as others have stated; I personally use Soul Harvest and have no experience with Soul Tether.) But for a Tank NB, Veil is the superior ult choice.

In PvP, Standard's utility as an opening ability is superior as you can use it from range, and the 50% healing reduction will help you and your teammates burst down people before they can retreat and heal. Veil has no such utility.

So, back around to the point I was making, it's situational. Solo, Veil is obviously superior. Tanking wise, if you want survivability over DPS, Veil is still better. But if you are in a group, particularly a large group, and want high dps, SoM is superior. And in PvP, I believe SoM is superior courtesy of the 50% healing reduction and the ability to use as an initiation tool.

And situational superiority, as opposed to absolute superiority, I believe is the correct balance method the game should employ.

Ciarán wrote: »

Running down the numbers.

Standard of Might
Range 15 meters, 8 meter diameter.
7 Fire damage every 1s + enemies take 50% less healing for 15s. Players in area take 20% less damage and deal 20% more damage. (The DoT will be buffed by Molten Whip if it is slotted; by how much I do not know.) Synergy skill - damages and immobilizes enemies.

Veil of Blades
Area around the NB, 5 meter diameter.
4 Magic damage every 0.5s, 70% snare, can crit, 15s duration. Players in ult take 30% less damage, caster takes 60% less. Synergy skill - Players can slip away (become invisible)

In a solo situation vs the environment, Veil of Blades is obviously superior. You cannot activate your own synergy skill, so the lack of a damaging synergy is a non-issue. The additional 40% damage reduction the VoB gives the caster a great deal more survivability. Whether or not it will deal more damage or not is a wild card. Per-second damage, VoB should be higher, but the SoM will give the DK 20% increased damage for the next 15s. What he does/uses in the following 15s will determine whether the 20% increased damage from SoM makes up for VoB's higher dot.

In a group environment, though, things become much more murky. Standard of Might will buff multiple peoples damage by 20% for 15s which will more than make up for the increase DoT damage of VoB. (While this is probably not apparent from a DPS #/s standpoint, as that 20% would show up as a boost to your teammates DPS and not your own.)

One problem, the increased damage done and decreased damage taken from Standard of Might doesn't affect "Players" in the area, it affects the Player who cast it.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Class balance: Further DK nerfs are completely un-needed, or anything much further on Templar/nb/sorc buffs beyond bug fixes such as Dark Cloak breaking on some dots erroneously.

DK's have had their resource regeneration slaughtered due to the global ultimate changes and being dependent on dropping ults to keep their resources up. Their talons are now melee range and have been nerfed in duration further on PTS to be a speedbump without even dodgerolling. Their DPS is now about the same as a good dot-specced NB but the NB can also drop a 30% damage reduction field (1.5x the dk's self-only one) for people that has a 60% reduction for themselves (3x the DK's) + snares at 70% instead of 30% in exchange for the heal debuff. DK's are forced to stay in melee range for DPS'ing in pve and pvp while sorcs/nb/temp all have good ranged specs for heals and DK has none, and sorcs/nb have good ranged dps specs.

NB's have a better main ultimate than the DK (veil of blades) as touched on above, plus a better PVP ultimate (heal debuff with tiny ult cost and high damage), plus a third viable ultimate. They have more utility as well. I think they're in a good place since a proper DOT spec can now do as much or more DPS in the trials as a DK or sorc. The resource generation is amazing as well thanks to Siphoning Attacks, and they have strong mobility with Dark Cloak bar its bug causing it to pop early at times related to DOT's, since we get stealth speed from concealed and vamp while cloaked, while also having a nice teleport skill in the form of Ambush.

NBs are not fine.

First, most of vet content, dot builds don't really make such of a difference. It is required a long fight in order to dots pay off.

Short/medium fights in vet content, most NBs will not even get 600 sustainable single target (no ultimate). Doable now and then, not a constant. Do you mind comparing it to dk and sorcs?

And veil of blades is an ultimate, it does not build that fast unless you're in a huge group or mobing 4-7 packs of enemies for your group. The nerf in ultimate generation with crit was really bad for NBs.

If you want to compare dps on trials, you better keep in mind that it is affected by the fight duration. Therefore, that dps showed in the end is not an actual dps, as it is affected by all players dps. I've seen videos of dks getting constantly more than 1k for single target during the fight, never saw one of a NB.

So, when you say they are okay and at the same level, don't take this as a flame, but please provide some evidence.

Trials and pve.

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

spliffmaster2b16_ESO wrote: »

Nova is 300 ultimate, not 250.
Problem with Templar sustain is magicka, not ultimate. I mean ultimate is bad too but Templars don't even have any halfway decent single target DPS ultimate so it doesn't matter.
Problem with Jabs is that it scales off weapon crit while everything else, including burning light procs scale off spell crit so it's hard to make an efficient build.

Wait Biting Jabs scales off of Weapon Crit and stuff? What?

Yes aedric spear = Weapon Crit.

Baphomet wrote: »

A templar's regen ain't too shabby if you're using skills like reflective lights and puncturing strikes. Puncturing strikes generates a lot of ult due to its many hits during the channel and after the single target ult boost, sun fire is pretty darn good, too. The main problem is that the templar's best ult, nova, should cost 200 ult instead of 250.

Reflective lights would be a lot better if the Illuminate passive worked.

It's supposed to give us 500 spell resist when mobs are effected with a Dawn's Wrath ability, but Spell Resist doesn't change on the character screen, so I assume that means it is not working. In fact, I don't ever see the 500 Spell resist that I invested 2 points to get. Am I doing something wrong, or is the tool tip badly written or is it just broken?

Mortosk wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

A templar's regen ain't too shabby if you're using skills like reflective lights and puncturing strikes. Puncturing strikes generates a lot of ult due to its many hits during the channel and after the single target ult boost, sun fire is pretty darn good, too. The main problem is that the templar's best ult, nova, should cost 200 ult instead of 250.

Reflective lights would be a lot better if the Illuminate passive worked.

It's supposed to give us 500 spell resist when mobs are effected with a Dawn's Wrath ability, but Spell Resist doesn't change on the character screen, so I assume that means it is not working. In fact, I don't ever see the 500 Spell resist that I invested 2 points to get. Am I doing something wrong, or is the tool tip badly written or is it just broken?

You won't see the bonus SR on your character screen because it only applies to the mobs affected by a Dawn's Wrath ability. You'll see your base SR vs every mob there.

If you want to see if it works, find a spell caster mob, write down how much they hit you for with their spells then keep reflective light or backlash up on the target and see what their spells hit you for. If it's less than the numbers you wrote down then you're getting the benefit of the SR.

The easiest way for them to "fix" class balancing would be to allow all characters to eventually learn all class abilities. I think a lot of people suggested this in beta (including myself) and I still don't know why they decided to keep class abilities locked.

If everything was available to everyone, once people figured out their cries for nerfs were only hurting themselves, they would stop (don't believe me? take a look at The Secret World, anyone can learn any ability, and the cries for nerfs were almost non-existent when I left).

As it stands now:
Sorc=20% ulti cost reduction (which is game breaking if others don't have it), pets, and magicka regen
NB=invisibility (which thieves guild and / or assassins guild are likely to get) 20% stamina regen and health, magicka, stamina regen (with damage debuff to self)
Templar= self-healing regardless of weapon and.... that's about all I can think of
DK=damage mitigation, 30% of damage taken self-healing, etc.

I play nightblade currently, but there's no real way to balance all of this. Not and try to balance stamina and magicka builds, and hybrids, etc. etc. as others have pointed out. There are some things, like ultimate cost reduction, that simply should be available to all classes, or not there for anyone, ooooor, even better, available to anyone with the skill points.

They should just let everyone learn all class abilities, maybe open up a new class after you complete each faction or something, but regardless, having some abilities locked behind a gate like this, just gives people too much ammunition to complain, forces devs to spend time reading and balancing instead of creating new content and fixing bugs, and it really doesn't need to be this way.

Great, have classes there to give you a starting point, but after that, everything should open to everyone so we can all get back to gaming and spend less time whining that "X class ability is kicking my ass so therefore nerf it."