DK Bash nerf for PVE is unacceptable

sagitter · May 2014

ppl are crazy , they pretend to be tougher having more defence and do high dps.
If u choose a defensive skill line like sword and board u could not expect to do the same damage of dual wielder users and 2h users damn!!!!! And bash how it was , had broke this rule.

Drasn · May 2014

"O ma gursh, dey dun broked ma bash button"

You guys complaining about this and saying "I can't tank anymore" or "I can't solo quests" are either so low of a level that tanking doesn't matter or you seriously broke your toon when spending skill points. (The fact that most of the whiners are DK's makes me think you are playing the wrong game. Seriously, you play the most blatantly overpowered class in the game and whine when an ability available to everyone gets toned down?)

My main is a V10 sword and board Templar. I have only ever bashed to interrupt or finish off a low health enemy. There is a reason that you have access to two different resource pools, learn to use them.

I know what you are going to say... "I r a tank, needz ma stamz" ... really? Do you? I tank in full light armor with overcharged magicka, magicka regen, health, health regen, spell resist, and armor. Stam is less than 100 points from being overcharged.

What the above means is: if you relied solely on a clearly broken ability then you didn't know how to play you character to begin with.

TLDR: Learn to play and don't put all your eggs in one basket.

ckf12b14_ESO · May 2014

Oh no! Tanks can no longer out-dps the DPS! Cry foul!

Tanks now tank. They were never supposed to do damage. They were supposed to keep aggro and take hits while they get healed and someone else kills things.

Drasn · May 2014

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

Oh no! Tanks can no longer out-dps the DPS! Cry foul!

Tanks now tank. They were never supposed to do damage. They were supposed to keep aggro and take hits while they get healed and someone else kills things.

Bad tanks that built their toon to spam bash probably can't dps anymore, but did you ever expect them to?

Tanks that understand the mechanics of tanking in this game will be fine.

Akhratos · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

"O ma gursh, dey dun broked ma bash button"

You guys complaining about this and saying "I can't tank anymore" or "I can't solo quests" are either so low of a level that tanking doesn't matter or you seriously broke your toon when spending skill points. (The fact that most of the whiners are DK's makes me think you are playing the wrong game. Seriously, you play the most blatantly overpowered class in the game and whine when an ability available to everyone gets toned down?)

My main is a V10 sword and board Templar. I have only ever bashed to interrupt or finish off a low health enemy. There is a reason that you have access to two different resource pools, learn to use them.

I know what you are going to say... "I r a tank, needz ma stamz" ... really? Do you? I tank in full light armor with overcharged magicka, magicka regen, health, health regen, spell resist, and armor. Stam is less than 100 points from being overcharged.

What the above means is: if you relied solely on a clearly broken ability then you didn't know how to play you character to begin with.

TLDR: Learn to play and don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Lets see if you can undestand this.
Not everybody want to wear light and stack magicka to rely in class skills.

Weapon trees like 2handed and dw for sta builds are really weak compared to class skills.

You are a tank yourself yet you say you never abused bash. Well, not all of dks did so stop the mocking because I didnt build around it nor used it except for interrupting as well.

Im happy they did put an end to the stupidity for one reason, because now it will be blatantly obvious theres no melee sta based build viable for pvp, mostly because the weapon skills are utter crap.

It would be not that hard for ZOS to actually notice their dps sta skills are a joke, and thus all people building anything besides magicka and bashers.

Drasn · May 2014

Archaon wrote: »

Lets see if you can undestand this.
Not everybody want to wear light and stack magicka to rely in class skills.

Weapon trees like 2handed and dw for sta builds are really weak compared to class skills.

You are a tank yourself yet you say you never abused bash. Well, not all of dks did so stop the mocking because I didnt build around it nor used it except for interrupting as well.

Im happy they did put an end to the stupidity for one reason, because now it will be blatantly obvious theres no melee sta based build viable for pvp, mostly because the weapon skills are utter crap.

It would be not that hard for ZOS to actually notice their dps sta skills are a joke, and thus all people building anything besides magicka and bashers.

The problem isn't so much that stamina builds are so much weaker than magicka builds. The real issue is the games general lack of burst damage. Without acceptable burst, especially so in PvP situations, range will always win.

I will also however point out again that you have 2 resource pools, both of which can be overcharged. You aren't meant to run all stamina based abilities(I would argue that you aren't meant to run all magicka either, its just easier to do so because of the abundance of choices.)

gladen5rwb17_ESO · May 2014

I think if you asked a victim of a Roman soldier "Did that hurt" he would not be able to answer as his head would be crushed in. Shield is and always was a weapon.

Just a thought...

TrueEssence · May 2014

It's funny that all you bash flamers are saying that it's buggy for a shield-wearer to be able to do dmg, but it's perfectly normal for somebody wearing cloth armor and a staff to tank as well or even better than someone wearing heavy armor and a shield.
If you all say bash was wrong, then please somebody tell me why the thing stated above seems perfectly fine.
Yes bash needed a nerf but with the thing zenimax did they also could have deleted it from the game along with heavy armor and the 1h/s skilline which wouldn't have made much of a differance to how it is now.

Drasn · May 2014

gladen5rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I think if you asked a victim of a Roman soldier "Did that hurt" he would not be able to answer as his head would be crushed in. Shield is and always was a weapon.

Just a thought...

Right after he summoned a flaming whip out of thin air and slapped around the guy that just turned his partner into a pile of ash with a lightning bolt.

This is a game, games have rule sets. Players abide by those rule sets. When the rule set changes for whatever reason please do like everyone else and complain about how OP something else is to make yourself feel better. Just don't try to make a case for real life physics in a game world... if they start applying that rule set we would never make it past level 1.

Napkins · May 2014

I don't care about pvp in this game. Bash wasn't op in pve it was perfect. It allowed a shield user to burst some dmg even if they built to be tanky. But now after patch it hits as hard as a light attack. Not worth using anymore. I'm just gonna spam pierce armor as my stam dump. (pretty much dumbed this game down more for me)

I really don't care if ppl abused this mechanic in pvp, where their WHOLE build revolved around bash. It really sucks that they did this because it HURTS every player who didn't abuse this.

Also for the ppl who keep saying bash was meant to only be and interrupt.......WHY the F would they make it do dmg!? You guys act like you know the game better then a dev. Well in any game it's the DEV's choice to design the game the way THEY want it.

Anyways I should get back to my leet pierce armor spam because now there is no reason to use bash in pve minus the rare interrupt....oh wait any weapon has this interrupt.....so what exactly is the point of bash again?

Loco_Mofo · May 2014

Therium104 wrote: »

MrBeatDown wrote: »

They have basically removed All sword and board tanks from the game. None of us are going to stay. We don't have time for them to fix the OBVIOUS mistake they made by nerfing bash. At the rate they move with fixes for the game, you will probably have to wait for another content patch to be released before they fix the class they just removed from the game. I cant believe they actually nerfed Interrupt Bash. So foolish.

The nerf was unnecessary and removed a valid playstyle from the game. It is an embarrassment that it occurred. Diversity requires each spec has value. The notion that a tank cannot do damage with a shield is ridiculous. The nerf was brought on by incompetent whiners who want success by complaining to the devs.

This game is going to die in a few months with this level of incompetence. The first order of business is to remove this nerf. This change needs to be reverted immediately or this game is not worth the time investment by players.

You all should not just be mad. You should be disgusted.

I'm disgusted... At your whining.

Plz just L2P.

Arsenic_Touch · May 2014

Napkins wrote: »

I don't care about pvp in this game. Bash wasn't op in pve it was perfect. It allowed a shield user to burst some dmg even if they built to be tanky. But now after patch it hits as hard as a light attack. Not worth using anymore. I'm just gonna spam pierce armor as my stam dump. (pretty much dumbed this game down more for me)

I really don't care if ppl abused this mechanic in pvp, where their WHOLE build revolved around bash. It really sucks that they did this because it HURTS every player who didn't abuse this.

Also for the ppl who keep saying bash was meant to only be and interrupt.......WHY the F would they make it do dmg!? You guys act like you know the game better then a dev. Well in any game it's the DEV's choice to design the game the way THEY want it.

Anyways I should get back to my leet pierce armor spam because now there is no reason to use bash in pve minus the rare interrupt....oh wait any weapon has this interrupt.....so what exactly is the point of bash again?

Not OP in PVE? LOL.

TetsuMaru · May 2014

Im a 42 dk tank and I love the nerf. Prior to the patch I was inclined to just spam bash on mobs. Now I am incentivized to use it sparringly and strategically. Fights are more intense and less...well....lame. I support this patch 100%

Clunan · May 2014

I see a big problem with the fact a lot of the DKs(hahaha, most of the people against the nerf ARE DKs go figure :P ) say now they have no way of playing now that bash isnt a good form of dps... If you DIDN'T level up another weapon skill at lv15+ and formed another bar that wasn't dedicated to your shield, you MIGHT have been playing the game wrong. Any player worth his salt saw the golden oppurtunity to dual role and max two different playstyles at lv15. Im a sorc ( I know, Im a badass, I know) and once I hit lv15 I dualed into Restoration, b/c I saw the value of being able to play as a healer for any group I was in, meaning my toon is more of an asset than a pure tank. If anyone is VR and cant roll 2 roles (pvp hardcores exempt) you gimped not only yourself, but any group you choose to be in. A DK should be able to tank or dps, not both at the same time. You should have knew that was how the game was meant to be played. I expect a good DK player to not only have two weapon types maxed, but also two armor types maxed by VR1. If they don't, they have no foresight, none at all. You can't ever tell what nerfs will come, so you have to not get tunnel vision. My sorc may not be the best end game healer, (here's looking at you Breton Templars in Light Armor with Resto, which I have an alt lol) but he can handle MOST situations. Now at lower levels, expect to be gimped in one or both of your roles. But learn to play two roles for the betterment of the PUG community. My heart goes out to those that ONLY leveled sword and board, but you did it to yourselves by not preparing for the suck, and limiting yourself to one role. Once you hit Cadwell's Gold, there's more than enough skillpoints to max two roles and more crafting than you need. That's my fiddy cents.

Tiago17 · May 2014

They reduced he normal bash too far in my opinion, it needs increasing

Moudeed · May 2014

Yes, seems o be the same old story, pvp players complain and get a class nerffed destroying the pve side. The loss of trust due to this is a huge disappointment to me.
Which class / skill is next, which build will be unraveled next.....Sorcerer maybe???
Lost interest in logging in it is so discouraging. But what do they care they got my 60 dollars and two months of subscription.

MrBeatDown · May 2014

Moudeed wrote: »

Yes, seems o be the same old story, pvp players complain and get a class nerffed destroying the pve side. The loss of trust due to this is a huge disappointment to me.
Which class / skill is next, which build will be unraveled next.....Sorcerer maybe???
Lost interest in logging in it is so discouraging. But what do they care they got my 60 dollars and two months of subscription.

Yep, No freedom of play style. Completely restricted. This game Has roles. Like Tank Dps Healer And, the only information you have about these roles is from the The cocky players that laugh at nerfs to your character and class and say things like L2P and Get Good. Because they are the authority on how you are supposed to play your character. And they designed your build for you and also tell you your roll in the game. And if you don't like it , unsub and leave, because they don't care.

Argurios · May 2014

Moudeed wrote: »

Yes, seems o be the same old story, pvp players complain and get a class nerffed destroying the pve side. The loss of trust due to this is a huge disappointment to me.
Which class / skill is next, which build will be unraveled next.....Sorcerer maybe???
Lost interest in logging in it is so discouraging. But what do they care they got my 60 dollars and two months of subscription.

It wasnt about pvp, it was about people exploiting a broken mechanic, in all aspects.

What don't you understand about that concept except maybe you now suck at the game because you never learned to use more than one attack?

Loco_Mofo · May 2014

You guys are unbelievable.

It was never intended to be the DPS weapon of choice, it's supposed to be your defensive set. Can't have the best of both worlds...

Your crutch is gone, adapt or cry.

Ranrach · May 2014

Well, bash is certainly one of the things that shows the big flaw in the skill system.

First of all, bash should not be counted as a full DPS ability for DPS classes (although in real life I think you can hit pretty hard with an iron shield with spikes on it). As a dedicated tank (as am I) it's the ONLY full DPS ability.
The problem is within the class and be "whatever you want to be". It doesn't work when the game asks of players to use the Trinity Force.

I made another post in another thread about meta builds. It almost seems that we should level some kind of meta build in order to play a specific role in a specific location. For example. When I play solo I need a good balance between offensive and defensive skills. In late game VR ranks you need to have a very balanced build to be of use to a group. But on the other hand the game also requires a dedicated Trinity Force (Tank, Healer, DPS) to be able to accomplish certain objectives (read: VR Dungeons and prolly Trials later on).

When I was in the beta, I tried to imagine what my goal would be within the game. So I planned a specific tank build that would be very helpful late game when I would play VR Dungeons and Trials. So I start the game by leveling this which went quite well. Once I hit VR3, my tank build was still very viable, because of the bash damage. I could keep on making progress within the game and still have some kind of DPS. With the bash nerf I can't. I am searching for a DPS build that will make my tank build viable. I need to find the balance between those two to be able to play solo again. Well, I can't, let me explain.

First of all, it was not my goal. If it's in theory (in charts) possible to do so, I didn't set my mind to that. I made a great plan that worked very well, but because people started to complain my plan is gone.
Second, I have set every single skill point and leveling process into my viable tank build. I could, in theory, respec to spend skill points in high DPS skills, but that will cost me money. I am using this money for crafting purposes and I don't own millions of gold like some other players that destroyed the economy with the dupe bug. I also believe it should not be the way to go that whenever a big patch is released we all should respec all of a sudden.
Third, the arguments for why someone should play this game are not longer viable anymore. "Play however you want to play". No! Sounds like great marketing to me, but it doesn't work like that in the game.

The problem is not bash, it's the kind of builds that use bash. It needs thorough investigation, not a wide nerf in bash. In order to specifically nerf certain builds (heavy DPS builds using bash as defensive/offensive DPS ability), the skill tree should be limited to specific roles (Tank, DPS, Healer). So either adjust the skill tree to specific roles or change the game mechanics so that specific roles are not required any longer (like in GW2). You can't have the best of both. You eventually end up with OP builds or with builds that SHOULD work, but are not working anymore after a nerfing patch.

Bash is just one example. Bat swarm was another. I never used it, but I can imagine it can be very viable on a tank. It gives the tank survivability, nice DPS output, but not too much. When a high DPS character starts using it, it becomes OP. The problem was never bat swarm on it's own, it was a specific build where it was used.
The flaw of "be whatever you want to be". It won't work in a game that requires Trinity Force. Neither will it work with the argument "that 1-50 and VR is solo content". The skilltree system doesn't fit the game, change it.

Akhratos · May 2014

So nobody here is answering the question I made. Why does ZOS dont give a damn about the 4! weapon skill trees being UTTER CR4P?

Its somewhat funny to be told by a Destro/Healing staff user to L2P. Really funny.

It must be as funny as trying to stand like a knowledged player and ignoring armor and other defensive stats granted by DK CLASS (magicka) skills DO NOT INCREASE WITH MAGICKA. Yes, you should stop telling people to L2P and teach yourself.

Who the *** cares about bash besides bash abusers? We are talking about ALL of the stamina based builds relying on weapon skill trees being UTTER CRAP. 2handed, dual wielding, 1h/s (with half the tree bugged and overlooked because how op bash was).

Its so obvious that Captain Fuckyoudks seems to think ZOS should remove them from the game.

Elder Sorcerors Online, welcome to the non-existant "play your way" experience.

Tankqull · May 2014

Argurios wrote: »

It wasnt about pvp, it was about people exploiting a broken mechanic, in all aspects.

What don't you understand about that concept except maybe you now suck at the game because you never learned to use more than one attack?

you´re playing a templar on your own just list the skills that enable you to kill a group of 3 vr mobs while having s&b equiped.
puncturing strikes? thx to the change done to that ability youre at <200dps while beeing unable to block
sun fire? yeha 80dps
piercing javelin? awefull singletarget dmg because of its cc side effect
solar flare? either casted with great dmg negating your ability to block and to move or horrible dmg with gigantic magica consumption but a pbae instant.
the 1h/s attacks can be ignored right away no dmg, high stamina costs and beside of the taunt nearly not noticeable effects.

Argurios · May 2014

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Argurios wrote: »

It wasnt about pvp, it was about people exploiting a broken mechanic, in all aspects.

What don't you understand about that concept except maybe you now suck at the game because you never learned to use more than one attack?

you´re playing a templar on your own just list the skills that enable you to kill a group of 3 vr mobs while having s&b equiped.
puncturing strikes? thx to the change done to that ability youre at <200dps while beeing unable to block
sun fire? yeha 80dps
piercing javelin? awefull singletarget dmg because of its cc side effect
solar flare? either casted with great dmg negating your ability to block and to move or horrible dmg with gigantic magica consumption but a pbae instant.
the 1h/s attacks can be ignored right away no dmg, high stamina costs and beside of the taunt nearly not noticeable effects.

Ok here we go.

Ransack
Invasion
Sun shield
Absorb Magicka
Radiant Aura

24 points in HP, 25 points in stamina.

All gear enchanted, set bonuses, knowledge of class and what enemies abilities are.

This is what i use. The only solo content in the whole game i have struggled on so far was

1) The quest in the AD region where you have to kill the storm Atronachs in a dungeon (can't remember the details now)
2) The quest in the 2nd map of the EP region, the quest to kill the poison alchemist guy. He was insanely hard.
3) Most gargoyles because their HP regen is insane.

Groups of 2 or 3 VR mobs are small fry.

Drasn · May 2014

MrBeatDown wrote: »

Yep, No freedom of play style. Completely restricted. This game Has roles. Like Tank Dps Healer And, the only information you have about these roles is from the The cocky players that laugh at nerfs to your character and class and say things like L2P and Get Good. Because they are the authority on how you are supposed to play your character. And they designed your build for you and also tell you your roll in the game. And if you don't like it , unsub and leave, because they don't care.

You're serious? You made an entire build around bashing? What did that take 25 skill points? Where did all your other points go?

You can play however you like in this game, that doesn't mean that what you like has to be optimal.

If you can't see that basing your entire play style around spamming 1 ability is flawed, then I don't even know what to say to you.

300+ skill points available and no freedom of play style? Are you serious?

Loco_Mofo · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

If you can't see that basing your entire play style around spamming 1 ability is flawed, then I don't even know what to say to you.

Especially an ability that was obviously on the fix list from the get go...

Reminds me of all the vampires that sooked after their ultimate bug was fixed.

Tankqull · May 2014

@Argurios kudos to you i have no clue how you are able to kill anything with that setup guess your using blazing shield? but will try it.

Drasn · May 2014

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

you´re playing a templar on your own just list the skills that enable you to kill a group of 3 vr mobs while having s&b equiped.
puncturing strikes? thx to the change done to that ability youre at <200dps while beeing unable to block
sun fire? yeha 80dps
piercing javelin? awefull singletarget dmg because of its cc side effect
solar flare? either casted with great dmg negating your ability to block and to move or horrible dmg with gigantic magica consumption but a pbae instant.
the 1h/s attacks can be ignored right away no dmg, high stamina costs and beside of the taunt nearly not noticeable effects.

V10 Templar Sword and Board

Bar 1
1-Pierce Armor
2-Volcanic Rune
3-Dark Flare
4-Reflective Light
5-Defensive Stance
U-Empowering Sweep

Bar 2
1-Breath of Life
2-Biting Jabs
3-Backlash
4-Unstoppable
5-Harness Magicka
U-Soul Assault

2500+ Health
2000+Magicka
1700+Stamina
90+Magicka Regen
50+Health Regen
60+Stamina Regen
2000+Spell Resistance
1900+Armor

Argurios · May 2014

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

@Argurios kudos to you i have no clue how you are able to kill anything with that setup guess your using blazing shield? but will try it.

If you spec points into stamina, it increases your base weapon damage. I think a lot of people don't realise this and specced into magicka with everything, and relied on bash at the same time. Now bash is nerfed, they try to use their 1H attacks, but no stamina invested will result in very low weapon damage.

-Ransack does the most damage as well as my melee hits, and its great because it increases my armour and reduces theirs for little stamina cost.
-Invasion for knockdown and longer stun reduces incoming damage to me.
-Sun shield again reduces incoming damage by a lot, especially against larger groups. ( i cant remember the name but i morphed it to the one that further increases shield strength the more enemies you hit with it)
- absorb magicka, if there is even one caster in the group kill him last. He will basically be your healer for the whole fight. Just keep it up, it costs little stamina and the next incoming spell will heal you. I soloed the first boss in Veteran Banished Cells from about 90% of her health because of this ability.
- Radiant aura, increases HP regen and Stam regen, just for more survivability and damage output using ransack. I cap both HP and stam regen.

Try and keep awareness of all the enemies, Block power attacks, its a free stun, and basjh casters to interrupt, again a free stun. All this lowers incoming damage as well.

Hope this helps. Its far more fun than spamming bash too.

Drasn · May 2014

MrBeatDown wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

If you can't see that basing your entire play style around spamming 1 ability is flawed, then I don't even know what to say to you.

I don't want you to say anything to me. Because I don't care what you have to say. I enjoyed my bash build and I wasn't even using the exploit that needed to be nerfed.

Damn right I bashed my way up to v10. You God Damn right im pissed off about the nerf. Its a crock of bull that the people that were crying about it were the ones that didn't know how to duel. Whats the difference if my main attack was Bash and your for example main attack was a spell. We all have our own ways of dealing damage. Who are you to tell me how to deal damage? Your nobody. Your a titty baby crying because you didn't know how to duel against it, and when the people that were using the xploit kicked your butt, You got mad.

End of story.

Duel against it? No, I don't PvP atm because of severe imbalance and client side trust. I couldn't care less if you bashed to VR12, what bothers me is the "titty baby"(your words) attitude yourself and others like you show when an obviously broken ability was fixed.

Argurios · May 2014

MrBeatDown wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

If you can't see that basing your entire play style around spamming 1 ability is flawed, then I don't even know what to say to you.

I don't want you to say anything to me. Because I don't care what you have to say. I enjoyed my bash build and I wasn't even using the exploit that needed to be nerfed.

Damn right I bashed my way up to v10. You God Damn right im pissed off about the nerf. Its a crock of bull that the people that were crying about it were the ones that didn't know how to duel. Whats the difference if my main attack was Bash and your for example main attack was a spell. We all have our own ways of dealing damage. Who are you to tell me how to deal damage? Your nobody. Your a titty baby crying because you didn't know how to duel against it, and when the people that were using the xploit kicked your butt, You got mad.

End of story.

You mad bro?

In a few weeks when you have actually learnt to play your class with more than one attack you will be fine. Have a good day.