The too easy/too hard debate

Yankee · May 2014

GreySix wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

I want a warrior (those weird guys who use weapons to fight... ), not some freakish dragon-mage-warrior crossover character with overly flashy VFX.

That's my wife to a T; she'll be hacking and whacking on a foe, oblivious to her character's own draining health.

It's then that my character steps in to heal or draw the foe's attention from her.

Sadly, can't do that in solo-only instances into which she's forced, and we'll reach the point where she'll just quit and then we'll both unsubscribe.

Hopefully, they fix the game before it comes to that.

If it were my wife/friend/etc , I would just take over and play their character for those few solo fights to get them past it.

There are not that many and then you guys can keep playing togther.

GreySix · May 2014

Yankee wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

I want a warrior (those weird guys who use weapons to fight... ), not some freakish dragon-mage-warrior crossover character with overly flashy VFX.

That's my wife to a T; she'll be hacking and whacking on a foe, oblivious to her character's own draining health.

It's then that my character steps in to heal or draw the foe's attention from her.

Sadly, can't do that in solo-only instances into which she's forced, and we'll reach the point where she'll just quit and then we'll both unsubscribe.

Hopefully, they fix the game before it comes to that.

If it were my wife/friend/etc , I would just take over and play their character for those few solo fights to get them past it.

There are not that many and then you guys can keep playing togther.

That's a course of action I've considered, but for now we're just sticking to side-quests that don't force the characters into solo-only instances.

Again, hopefully they'll soon find a way to make ESO group-friendly. If even SWTOR could get that piece right, I'm certain that the ESO developers can figure it out.

Melian · May 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

But we currently have the 1% that find the game just too easy in every shape and form and others that are struggling to pass content at is required to progress on your own.

Well, I'm definitely not in the 1%, and I don't find the game easy. I think it's just right; I love the fact that leveling is harder than in other games, where the difficulty ramps up suddenly at max level.

What would you expect to see if the difficulty was "just right" for the average player? You'd have some people complaining that it was easy and boring, and others calling it "impossible", just as you do now.

SteveCampsOut · May 2014

Melian wrote: »

I really would dislike suggestion 3. I don't want bosses nerfed just because I die - that would rob the victory of all its joy, for me.

I like suggestions 4 and 5, though.
Perhaps tips on strategy for beating the bosses could be built into the game more - the sort of thing you could find from helpful people on the forums, but in the form of an in-game book, an NPC of your class, something like that.

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Loved the long post but here's my short answer. There should NEVER be a quest so difficult that it totally blocks your access to new content! EVER! Being locked out of VR content because one can't finish off Molag Bal means, no, I don't have more quests to complete if I have cleared every quest and mapped every area and collected every skill point between starting zone and Final Main quest!

On the other hand, when you get to the first veteran zone it's such a great feeling because you had to beat Molag Bal to get there.

I guess you didn't read my follow up post did you. Yeah it did feel great. Especially because I wasn't calling for a Nerf! Here, let me quote it for you!

SteveCampsOut wrote:

FINALLY! After some help from a guildie with gold for a respec, I got Annulment & Entropy and was able to Block/Kyte/Heal/Shield/Circle of FlameStaff Fire AOE all around his feet and took him down in 5 minutes! Feels great knowing the trick and I was able to do it WITH my arthritic hands no less!

See, sometimes we just need a little help!

Morimizo · May 2014

Great post, and just what I needed to read after my troubles over the past couple of days with Molag Bal.

The main quest solo missions, particularly the last section, are unfair to say the least. I play as a Daedric Summoning/Destructive Staff Sorceror, and have passed every challenge this game has thrown at me, quite well, I think. After all, the proof is my arrival at VR1 and the Molag Bal fight, is it not? I have completed every quest, collected every skyshard, even soloed the public dungeons and a group dungeon (though I wouldn't recommend this at all unless hideously overleveled). The difference with the Molag Bal fight is that 2 of my skills, my summons, are worthless. The "divine" power does not extend to them, even in matters of defense, and agro is disabled, making a squishy target in a light armor build even squishier.

How about you disable 2 skills of every class tier to make it fair? I jest, I don't ever ask for nerfing, I request restoring/empowering.

I luckily hoarded some skill points to try some different skills, but that changes my playstyle entirely; a playstyle that has served me well over dozens of hours of challenges. It's like being given an exam on a different subject after acing every test during the semester. What is expected is to leave the exam room armed with the new knowledge of what is expected, and return when you can figure it out. More on this later.

Why is running around like a Chihuahua for 15 minutes nipping at the heals of a Great Dane a "divine" power? This fight has no environmental puzzle or other such creative way to combat this enemy, which is underwhelming and disappointing. Mortals SHOULD NOT be able to defeat a Deadric Prince, right? Where are my allies that I spent so long cultivating? Where is Meridia, a Daedric Prince herself? I take issue with the "lore" here. Personally, I would've given up Valaste to Uncle Sheo, if he would've obligingly turned ol' Molag into a block of Colovian Cheddar and tossed him into the Vivec sewers. I think he would enjoy that. Sheo, not Molag.

Why are status effects like Stun, immoblize, knockback, etc. completely ineffective in the fights you need them most? I can understand maybe shortening their effect, or keeping them removed in group play so enemies can't be staggered continuously, but this also severely limits the skills that work. Skills that have performed so well over the entirety of the game. Muscle memory is integral to the twitchy nature of this dodge-block-run-block-dodge-normal attack-fight, and you remove this possibility by allowing other playstyles to be so effective in the rest of the game (unless this is how you combat 3 ill-tempered mudcrabs).

Why are the solo-instanced sections the most difficult aspects of the game? To be clear, the only time I actively played with other folks is during the Dark Anchors, or when I thought I could help someone low on health and surrounded. Most of the quests and dungeons are designed to be handled solo, and that's what happened. But a boss in a normal dungeon, with multiple allies (or even a world boss with adds), is nothing compared to a main quest boss. Part of the problem is the ineptitude of the NPCs accompanying you; they rarely agro the enemy, rarely strike at the enemy, and usually just stand there admiring the scenery (can't blame them of course, it can be quite beautiful). The main problem is the obvious ramping up of attack/defense/resistances of the enemies. Shouldn't this be opposite? More allies=tougher enemies, solo player=average enemies?? Curious design. This encourages overleveling(which you can't do with Molag Bal, since VR1 can't advance until you get past him---ah, Catch 22, how I love thee!), which then renders the loot and experience worthless.

Anyway, like a dutiful soldier, I trained again with different skills, listened to other kind folks' advice, and prepared specifically for the Molag fight. Didn't feel particularly confident, but once more unto the breach! What I didn't expect was to have to fight the system as well. Loading screens that get stuck trying to teleport between the small areas of Heart's Grief (aptly named, though not in the way you meant), getting owned by the 4 skeletons around Mannimarco because all of a sudden none of my skills would function (and not because of stunning-this happens every once in a while; perhaps lag or a bug? I've seen it mentioned on comprehensive bug lists), and then either Molag is invincible, or when defeated, cannot advance the quest. Do I need to reset the mission to fix these issues? I don't have the option to abort this quest, so have no idea how to reset it. Logging out and in doesn't help.

And the reward for overcoming the design of this boss and the system troubles? The veteran ranks! Are they as nasty as everyone says? Do the status effects not work against ANY enemies? Acquire no more attribute points? Do techniques that worked so well in the first 50 levels need to be replaced by the aforementioned block-dodge-run-normal attack-routine? Perhaps playing the first 50 levels is the way to go right now. I admit I didn't expect ESO to go Borderlands 2 "Ultimate Vault Hunter" mode so soon.

Here I always thought the more one worked on a skill, the better one would get. That the higher level a character, the more powerful; the more options. Speaking of which, why only one morph? Why not have two or three more choices? Seems very thin, and favorite skills get capped quickly. The common theme for other ES games has been low interest in the endgame, but that was due to a lack of new loot after a certain point, and the lack of new areas to explore. Difficulty could be increased to compensate for elite kit, but usually a player could overwhelm any challenge by endgame.

ESO goes opposite here; the loot and exploration continue to be robust in the endgame. But the difficulty spikes incredibly, and the reason, I believe, is to keep players from reaching level caps too soon. This will fail, because many players are masters in their own right, and will dominate whatever challenges are thrust upon them, in quick order. Those who are casual, or not as skilled, or simply don't find high difficulty to be fun, will not progress to the endgame. And they can't ask for other player's help in the areas they struggle. In an MMO.

I completely endorse attaching a difficulty choice during solo-instanced quests, so every player can enjoy these aspects of the game however he/she wishes. There can be new rewards dispersed for those who are willing to conquer these challenges on high difficulty. Any multiplayer zone/quest/dungeon should have the current standard difficulty. Does this not embody ESO's credo to "play it your way?"

There should also be a retooling of how status effects function, particularly on larger creatures. Why can't a knockback on a smaller creature knock the player back instead when used on a larger creature? After all, the move is used to create space. This animation already exists in the bow weapon skill "Magnum Shot" morph. How about giving a boss a 30% chance to reflect status effects, making it risky to use a snare or stun, but still worth it? Taking the effects away entirely is tantamount to removing viable skill options. The player should be able to throw everything they've got at a boss, and not just find that running in circles and using the least interesting standard normal attack is the best method. With a block and a dodge (or ten) thrown in of course.

Also agree with more information being displayed for stats, effects, reasons for death, etc. Tough to always know how to change/improve or what actually works.

And is it true that how your respective alliance is doing in PVP can effect your stats in PVE, even when you have not participated as of yet? Very concerned about that.

One great wall of text deserves another! Thanks for a great thread!

kirnmalidus · May 2014

Morimizo wrote: »

And is it true that how your respective alliance is doing in PVP can effect your stats in PVE, even when you have not participated as of yet? Very concerned about that.

To some extent, yes. It isn't just your alliance though - it is specifically your alliance in your home campaign, so you need to have at least set your home campaign (and I believe that requires at least a visit to Cyrodiil). It is based the Elder Scrolls that can be stolen in Cyrodiil, each alliance has one that gives a defensive bonus and one that gives an offensive bonus. If you alliance in your home campaign has captured Elder Scrolls from the other alliances you get the bonuses from them wherever you are (including when guesting in another campaign in Cyrodiil).

I agree whole-heartedly with your comments about bosses being immune to everything. It's kind of ridiculous. It would be fine if the were less vulnerable to some effects – as you say, maybe reflecting or something – or even immune to some CC effects. Bosses that are immune to everything is lazy design, it's like the "when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail" approach to making encounters challenging.

Ysne58 · May 2014

I do feel that allowing for grouping in forced solo content should happen.

Sakiri · May 2014

DagothMacellarius wrote: »

Most people who complain do not like thinking for themselves so the game becomes hard. They are used to WoW and other MMO's where curtain things are concrete in a class like pets and curtain weapons and so on. In this game you can play anyway you want for the most part but some ways are going to be way better for PVP and other for PVE. for example a Daedric summoner sorcerer makes PVE childs play but pets in PVP is pretty much a waste. I see so many people making single target builds or builds with no CC and expect to faceroll PVE content. Very few builds transfer well from PVE to PVP and vice versa. PVE is harder because you cant just burst one thing down and be done for the most part. Actually need good timing and CC.

The person that Ive been advocating for has never touched WoW.

He even played UO. SWG.

He cant kill these bosses, he doesnt have the reaction time.

Blaming everything on WoW is bs and a poor excuse.

Sakiri · May 2014

Yankee wrote: »

If they allow grouping for the main story boss fights then it should be only one more person. Because I have to wonder if allowing a full group might make it too easy for groups of bots to get into VR content.

I am also curious how many people who had huge trouble getting past Mannimarco/Molag/etc find soloing in mid to high vet zones easy?

Just like for Molag, I had to reconsider some of the skills I was using once I got into vet content and have to stop sometimes and think about how to approach a battle when soloing there. I had no great problems, but still the main quest fights were good for me on the three classes I have taken through them. They pointed out weaknesses in my builds that helped later.

What I am getting at is that perhaps fights such as Mannimarco and Molag are not really a bad thing to be difficult if you plan to run solo in higher content,

Now if you are always going to run with a partner or group through all content I could more understand wanting to group main quest stuff.

Theres no issue in mid level vr content BECAUSE you can bring a friend. If I just barely skated by, it wouldnt affect my play at vr6 because all the forced solo is done. Kaput. I can yell at a guildie.

Shiroro · May 2014

Can't believe how many people there are who think combat is ok right now. It's hurting the game immensely when people do that because it's encouraging Zeni not to fix something that's going to scuttle the game's shelf life. Combat is so frustratingly unresponsive that this game won't last 6 months before f2p unless they do something soon. There is no skill involved in any of the PvE content right now...just learning how to unfunly cheese in the correct way. The "l2p" and "carebear go home" crowd is ruining any chance this game has of lasting a year.

The backbone of single-player combat in this game is fantastic. The execution is the worst in any MMO since classic FFXIV (which had a horrible backbone.)

This is a new game so I cut it some slack but it's not something that can be ignored. Combat is not in a good place right now and until it's fixed the cheesers will say the game is way too easy and everyone else will struggle to do anything.

GreySix · May 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

DagothMacellarius wrote: »

Most people who complain do not like thinking for themselves so the game becomes hard. They are used to WoW and other MMO's where curtain things are concrete in a class like pets and curtain weapons and so on. In this game you can play anyway you want for the most part but some ways are going to be way better for PVP and other for PVE. for example a Daedric summoner sorcerer makes PVE childs play but pets in PVP is pretty much a waste. I see so many people making single target builds or builds with no CC and expect to faceroll PVE content. Very few builds transfer well from PVE to PVP and vice versa. PVE is harder because you cant just burst one thing down and be done for the most part. Actually need good timing and CC.

The person that Ive been advocating for has never touched WoW.

He even played UO. SWG.

He cant kill these bosses, he doesnt have the reaction time.

Blaming everything on WoW is bs and a poor excuse.

Yeah, I get tired of the references to WoW, as though anyone who can't "master" game mechanics of a particular MMO with shortcomings was some WoW addict.

Only WoW I ever played was their starter edition, and it was sufficient to convince me not to subscribe.

tinythinker · May 2014

Hmm, I was just thinking about comments I've seen in other threads and came up with possibility #6...

What about a difficulty level based on instances? In other words, all of the people who want to always solo everything or who claim to have a lack of challenge can choose a harder setting not just for bosses but the content as a whole, similar to how the VR system works but with an even greater level of difficulty?

jesterstear · May 2014

My problem is that I find it really upsetting when my character dies. I get enraged, feel depressed the rest of the evening, start punching the keyboard etc. I'm generally very cautious, build for sustainability, repair often, upgrade often and quest overlevel.

But I feel the game plays dirty at times to spring surprise deaths on you.

Some mobs are way, way harder than others the same level and rating. Some have a difficulty like 10 levels higher than they actually are. The player is given no warning that the quest or location you are entering is highly challenging. For goodness sakes, each zone has public dungeons, which are marked on the map, but the dungeons that are designed to be taken on in a group are marked in the exact same way as the ones meant for solo. The quest journal/bestowal dialog offers no hints. You only discover what's going on when that one diamond Frost Atronach elite, which you could normally solo, kills you without getting it below half health. When that mob you pull is joined by 5 of his buddies, respawn, and a patrol coming along the corridor. The irony is, two up, these areas offer no challenge whatsoever, and are frequently cleared by armies of bots.

Then there's that lovely main story quest "Chasing Shadows" in Vulkhel Guard lighthouse, where after turning the quest in an elite shows up and starts attacking. After a few seconds, you realise it's not soloable, i'm blocking all his power attacks, but the normal autoattacks are doing significant damage to me, while my attacks are hardly moving his health bar at all. You cannot leave the building because you're in combat, so he kills you. After you die, he's gone, you did not need to fight him, he existed for no other reason than to kill the player. If you ran for the exit the moment you turned the quest in, you could have avoided this death, but unless you'd run the quest before and knew this was coming, why would you?

How about the Valley of Blades quest - when Mannimarco's minions show up the first time two elites agro together and give the player a good kicking. After you die, you find them stood around, and can be picked off separately. Let's get this straight, if the quest only requires you to fight one elite at a time, why the hell does it chuck them both together at you first time round, other than to make the player experience at least one death? I can think of other examples, but i'm starting to rant, so leave it.

Obviously, there are a lot of people who enjoy the challenging nature of this game, and that if a quest doesn't kill you a dozen times in the process of beating it, it's too easy. The problem is it's a Role Playing Game, and "rezzurecting" really shouldn't be allowed at all - in good old pen and paper D&D, which I played, you die, you reroll, that's it. It's different in a first person shooter or survival horror game - for one, you have no emotional investment in the character at all, you didn't create them, most of the time you never even see their face. Also, their many deaths never actually "happen". Time skips back to a checkpoint before the death occurred, and will do so as often as necessary to beat the dangerous situation. In this game the damage is permanently inflicted upon your gear, the potions you wasted trying to stay alive are gone for good, and you run back from the graveyard to the npcs and monsters patiently waiting to watch you die again. Also, other player characters nearby probably witness it and are laughing at you right now.

Part of this is my own fault for rolling a cute character.

One death on her and i'm going to turn the air blue, beat some keys out of my keyboard (spend the next five minutes looking for them under my desk), get bruised knuckles and be really , really miserable the rest of the evening. I mean , i'm sure there's people who don't mind seeing her get murdered twenty or thirty times in a row, but if that's your thing, why not just rent a slasher movie?

I've also got a sorcerer alt who's a short, plump guy with greasy hair. Even with him though I'm getting fed up after 7 or 8 wipes.

My humble suggestions

1) Give characters a "get out of jail" card, on a significant cooldown. Something that instantly puts them in a damage shield and teleports them back to their starter town. Punish them for using it by all means , make it cost gold, have a cooldown, even penalise their xp for a time afterward. Whatever, but give players who are death-adverse an option.

2) some warning system when you enter a more dangerous area/start a challenging quest.

GreySix · May 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

The problem is it's a Role Playing Game, and "rezzurecting" really shouldn't be allowed at all - in good old pen and paper D&D, which I played, you die, you reroll, that's it.

Ah, that reminds me of the 80s, when I was a scruffy teenager: A friend and his buddy were playing some space-based D&D type of game, and I expressed interest. Then spent thirty minutes developing and building this character.

First play of the game, the tool with my friend tells me to roll, tells me my character is dead, and they both burst out laughing. I asked them if I got another turn, they said no, and laughed some more.

I then collected their eight-sided dice, walked outside, tossed them into the busy boulevard, and wished them good luck in finding their $#@% dice.

kirnmalidus · May 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

1) Give characters a "get out of jail" card, on a significant cooldown. Something that instantly puts them in a damage shield and teleports them back to their starter town. Punish them for using it by all means , make it cost gold, have a cooldown, even penalise their xp for a time afterward. Whatever, but give players who are death-adverse an option.

There are passive abilities and armor set bonuses already in the game that give you exactly that. You basically described the set bonus of Whitestrake's Retribution. Orgnum's Scales and Song of Lamae set bonuses also provide near-death buffs.

Also, maybe look at the passives from the Soul Magic tree. I think a lot of people are overlooking these, but one of them with two skill points gives you a free rez with a one hour cooldown.

Yankee · May 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

My problem is that I find it really upsetting when my character dies. I get enraged, feel depressed the rest of the evening, start punching the keyboard etc. I'm generally very cautious, build for sustainability, repair often, upgrade often and quest overlevel.

One death on her and i'm going to turn the air blue, beat some keys out of my keyboard (spend the next five minutes looking for them under my desk), get bruised knuckles and be really , really miserable the rest of the evening. I mean , i'm sure there's people who don't mind seeing her get murdered twenty or thirty times in a row, but if that's your thing, why not just rent a slasher movie?

I've also got a sorcerer alt who's a short, plump guy with greasy hair. Even with him though I'm getting fed up after 7 or 8 wipes.

Up to 50 on my Sorcerer I died maybe 5 or 6 times.

In VR running solo I can surpass that number of deaths in half a VR level. You must get a tough keyboard or hopefully be a better player than I.

Morimizo · May 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

But I feel the game plays dirty at times to spring surprise deaths on you.

Some mobs are way, way harder than others the same level and rating. Some have a difficulty like 10 levels higher than they actually are. The player is given no warning that the quest or location you are entering is highly challenging. For goodness sakes, each zone has public dungeons, which are marked on the map, but the dungeons that are designed to be taken on in a group are marked in the exact same way as the ones meant for solo. The quest journal/bestowal dialog offers no hints. You only discover what's going on when that one diamond Frost Atronach elite, which you could normally solo, kills you without getting it below half health. When that mob you pull is joined by 5 of his buddies, respawn, and a patrol coming along the corridor. The irony is, two up, these areas offer no challenge whatsoever, and are frequently cleared by armies of bots.

I think a lot of times what happens, especially in normal questing areas where many other players are doing the quest concurrently, is that mobs will reappear in places you did not notice on the way through, and even though you may be very careful to not agro multiple spawns, you end up getting surrounded and slaughtered quickly. I call this getting BS'd, and just accept it as not a personal indictment on my awareness or skill, but as a byproduct of the game design to make sure each player has some enemies to fight. Hence the quicker enemy respawn times, as compared to a solo instance like the Main Quest, where, and correct me if I'm wrong, enemies don't respawn. What I would like to see is the more strategic placement of books and journals, because this is when I most often get ambushed by a recently vanquished mini-boss or mob. I never dawdle in one of these areas any more. The mage's guild ultimate reward is intended to help with this, but is not functioning perfectly yet.

Regarding the marking of dungeons, this is how I tell the difference:

Group Dungeons: Most are Undaunted quests, and are symbolized by a Torch-looking icon with a plus sign on the map. DO NOT try these without a group of at least 3 unless you are obscenely overleveled. If the creatures are near your level or higher, you better have 4 people. They are also instanced, so no one else will be coming in after you like the other dungeons.

Public Dungeons: Map icon is just the torch, but you usually won't know until you get inside that these are meant for groups. Tiptoe inside, and identify the first spawn. IF there are 4 or more enemies, it is not meant to solo. You can, of course, but it will be very difficult (once again, if the enemies are near your level or higher) for most folks. Either join up with friends, or wait for others to group with and run together. It is not instanced, so others will hopefully follow and help if they can. There are usually two quests in each of these dungeons as well, with one often starting from the very first room.

Solo Dungeons: These are the easiest, and where running with random players will make it a breeze. Spawns are 3 or less, and even the boss is only marginally tougher than any of the mobs. If there is a quest, it usually is in the last area and may be a journal or some other collectible to return to a nearby NPC in a city or camp.

As far as the Valley of Blades quest goes, I had three of those elites at once, and definitely got owned (while Sai Sahan stroked his beard and contemplated the massacre with complacent detachment). I also found that upon reviving they were neatly standing in separate locations to agro one at a time. This could be on purpose to allow solo players to have an easier go the second time, but I think it all matters where these enemies are originally standing, and where your character is in relation when they first spawn. It's like agro-ing multiple mobs. This is seldom a good idea. Bad luck? Definitely.

kirnmalidus wrote: »

Also, maybe look at the passives from the Soul Magic tree. I think a lot of people are overlooking these, but one of them with two skill points gives you a free rez with a one hour cooldown.

This will save you a soul gem, and a skill I always take. A good idea to carry a few extra with you too (make sure they match your level)-I carry at least 10 for myself (especially for solo instances) and to revive other players if I can.

My advice is to not think of the character dying, but just getting knocked down. Temporarily incapacitated. Even the current Emperor has had his posterior handed to him in a burlap sack on occasion. What's the phrase, not how many times you get knocked down, but how many times you get up?

Sakiri · May 2014

GreySix wrote: »

jesterstear wrote: »

The problem is it's a Role Playing Game, and "rezzurecting" really shouldn't be allowed at all - in good old pen and paper D&D, which I played, you die, you reroll, that's it.

Ah, that reminds me of the 80s, when I was a scruffy teenager: A friend and his buddy were playing some space-based D&D type of game, and I expressed interest. Then spent thirty minutes developing and building this character.

First play of the game, the tool with my friend tells me to roll, tells me my character is dead, and they both burst out laughing. I asked them if I got another turn, they said no, and laughed some more.

I then collected their eight-sided dice, walked outside, tossed them into the busy boulevard, and wished them good luck in finding their $#@% dice.

Ive yet to play a tabletop game where we permanently lost a character.

I *did* almost get one shot by a tatzlworm at level 1 on my sorceress in my last pathfinder game, and our current one we die in regularly(mythic powerup and ascension happened after deaths) but no permadeath. Always had a cleric or wizard or someone with UMD and scrolls.

*Did* have one tpk. We were so amused by it we pretended it didnt happen and started the encounter over after the DM stopped snorting and spraying coffee all over the table.

Sakiri · May 2014

Oh and valley of blades.. I find if I die I end up having all of them respawn, like Ill pull one of the dual mages but then the first dragonknight will respawn in the middle of it.

jesterstear · May 2014

Yankee wrote: »

jesterstear wrote: »

My problem is that I find it really upsetting when my character dies. I get enraged, feel depressed the rest of the evening, start punching the keyboard etc. I'm generally very cautious, build for sustainability, repair often, upgrade often and quest overlevel.

One death on her and i'm going to turn the air blue, beat some keys out of my keyboard (spend the next five minutes looking for them under my desk), get bruised knuckles and be really , really miserable the rest of the evening. I mean , i'm sure there's people who don't mind seeing her get murdered twenty or thirty times in a row, but if that's your thing, why not just rent a slasher movie?

I've also got a sorcerer alt who's a short, plump guy with greasy hair. Even with him though I'm getting fed up after 7 or 8 wipes.

Up to 50 on my Sorcerer I died maybe 5 or 6 times.

In VR running solo I can surpass that number of deaths in half a VR level. You must get a tough keyboard or hopefully be a better player than I.

You must be one hell of a player. I've been really po'd the last two days over the number of deaths I had on my main. Going from 42-43, I've had six deaths. Prior to that maybe I was good for 2 or 3 without death.

One in some Khajiti temple (dokhrin monastery) fighting a pull of 3 mobs.... the cultists there seem to have a skill that puts barbed wire around your feet and leaves you unable to move, use any skills or block for 3 seconds, they did that twice back to back.

Two in this public dungeon with loads of traps. Got snagged on the spikes coming out of the floor and poison gas cloud. Was pressing my instant heal button but it didn't work. Died. Went back to the same place to see if the gas stops you using skills, it didn't.

Two in the town of Dune while fighting elite frost atronach. Once because I snagged a clannfear add, the other because maybe I let my health go too low ( was trying to trigger the Honour the dead power return proc if the target is below 50% health after healing).

Just died again finishing the two moons path quest line, in the final boss fight. The fight against the elite was really easy, but he summoned this dark cloud and there was no indication it was damaging me, screen didn't turn red or anything. Then I notice my health bar is down to a sliver, pressed the instant heal, pressed it again, no heal happened, I died. Retreated to nearest wayshrine and my character immediately heals casts their heal skill without me pressing anything.

Last night I put one level on my sorcerer as well, took him from 10 to 11. The combat stats viewer addon logged 22 deaths. Had to recraft armour a couple of times because items were broken, at 0 durability.

Why am I playing a game that makes me feel this angry? It can't be worth it.

tinythinker · May 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

Two in this public dungeon with loads of traps. Got snagged on the spikes coming out of the floor and poison gas cloud. Was pressing my instant heal button but it didn't work. Died. Went back to the same place to see if the gas stops you using skills, it didn't.

...

Just died again finishing the two moons path quest line, in the final boss fight. The fight against the elite was really easy, but he summoned this dark cloud and there was no indication it was damaging me, screen didn't turn red or anything. Then I notice my health bar is down to a sliver, pressed the instant heal, pressed it again, no heal happened, I died. Retreated to nearest wayshrine and my character immediately heals casts their heal skill without me pressing anything.

You may know all of this, but I'll post it for those who don't.

What you've described are examples of what is commonly referred to as lag (it is labeled as "latency" in the bug report window), which in online gaming refers to not being able to see a cause for an effect or noticing a delay in responsiveness by the program. This includes any kind of issue where something happens well after it was supposed to or in which the computer failed to load the images, making the cause of some action invisible.

Generally, there are three main sources of lag:

1. Server latency. In other words, there is a delay in communication between the server and your computer because the server is processing so many requests at once. This is sometimes seen in larger battles in Cyrodiil, for example, or when the population for a particular campaign is really high and very active in using their abilities/moving. This requires a fix or upgrade by the people running the ZOS servers.

One specific example of this is that when I am lagging in Cyrodiil, after I resurrect at a transitus shrine I may then have an attack or two hit and damage my character. Unfortunately, some players think latency and lag are synonymous and assume all problems are server side.

2. Internet connection slowdown. Similar to server latency, but the focus is an issue with a player's connection to their ISP. Rebooting the modem or wireless adapter and checking for issues with your anti-virus software and its firewall settings are possibilities here.

3. Overtaxed processing speed/power of the player's computer. In particular the CPU or the graphics card is having trouble keeping up with processing and translating the data stream into the right images on your screen. The two major options here are A ) an expensive hardware upgrade or B ) turning the graphics setting on the game a little lower. Another option is to C ) shut down all other active programs while playing, at least those taking up significant amounts of processing power. If your computer is "whining" a little or the area next to the exhaust feels really hot that is the internal fan trying to keep up with the jump in power use. (If it gets louder/makes irregular sounds or a grinding noise, that may mean the fan is going bad and needs to be replaced right away.)

It doesn't just have to be any single one of these. You might be running the game fine, but a little server delay and a drop in internet speed because the shared local node of your ISP network just had a dozen of your neighbors hop on Netflix can suddenly cause issues, or maybe it's having too many multimedia heavy windows open while playing the game combined with a simultaneous spike in player logins and activity on the server. With the exception of waiting for a server patch or buying new hardware, the other options (resetting your modem/router, rebooting your computer, closing superfluous programs, checking your firewall settings, lowering the game setting for graphic quality, telling others in your house/down the street to stop watching streaming video because they are messing up the game, etc) may allow for a relatively quick diagnosis and fix.

Good luck!

jesterstear · May 2014

I think my issues are due to living in a rural(ish) location, on an ADSL line that's a long distance from the exchange. I'm in the UK too, so my UDP packets got to cross the pond as well before anything happens.

Just finished the Fighter's Guild quest line and the Mannimarco main story quest. The fighter's guild was frustrating as hell, that harvester is Doshia on steroids and it took me about 40 minutes to beat her.

I died once on a trash pull early in the Mannimarco instance, which deepened my depression. Usual story, the first time you encounter them, the Bone Atronach and all the necromancers activate together, all agro on me due to my healing agro + agro from my sword and shield skills + useless companions. Rezz, and hey presto, they can be pulled one at a time godammit.

Then the actual Mannimarco fight itself comes along and.... well I video'd the first attempt.

http://youtu.be/LkaKY9P5ZYs

Sorry about the quality, I uploaded at 360p but Youtube are very stingy about the bitrate at these resolutions and the original file gets mangled.

Morimizo · May 2014

I actually found myself rooting for you towards the end of your vid.

It's fascinating how different your experience was to mine because of weapon and class choice. Veni vidi vici!

jesterstear · May 2014

Morimizo wrote: »

I actually found myself rooting for you towards the end of your vid. It's fascinating how different your experience was to mine because of weapon and class choice. Veni vidi vici!

How was it for you then?

Given how bad of a player I seem to be, I was amazed at how easy this boss was. Never came close to defeating me. The trash was much harder. The first fight, with the wipe, wasn't recorded. This is the second big trash pull and it ran me quite ragged. I was desperate to avoid defeat as I didn't want to be going into the Mannimarco fight with damaged armour. Nor did I want to blow my big healing Ultimate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbOM1ikel_4&feature=youtu.be

Morimizo · May 2014

Anyone who gets this far into the game should never be classified as a"bad player." That thought never crossed my mind. What did cross my mind was how well you managed your health during the fight; as a Summoning/Destro Staff squishy sorcerer, I had my health diminish below 20% on a couple of occasions. I was mightily relieved to vanquish the necromaniac.

jesterstear · May 2014

Morimizo wrote: »

Anyone who gets this far into the game should never be classified as a"bad player." That thought never crossed my mind. What did cross my mind was how well you managed your health during the fight; as a Summoning/Destro Staff squishy sorcerer, I had my health diminish below 20% on a couple of occasions. I was mightily relieved to vanquish the necromaniac.

Horses for courses I guess, my Templar has many ways to restore health and mitigate damage but DPS, beyond a DOT or two and autoattack, isn't her thing. The Silver Shards guild skill helps to knock down the adds quick thanks to them being squishy and undead, but that's very much the exception to the rule. Watching it again, I can see that Repentence wasn't working off those ghosts, so I could have slotted Absorb magic instead, in case it absorbs any ranged attacks from Mannimarco (procs a heal when that happens too).

I imagine your mage probably did better on that other fight I linked. With low dps, my problem is getting swamped by adds, especially of the ranged variety which is tough. Perhaps you could ask why I ran in and grabbed the biggest mob, I was falling back to PVE tank behaviour.

On the Mannimarco fight, I got caught in the inner red circle blast many times, due to walking backwards (too slow). If I'd gone forwards, i'd have been ok. Again, tank instinct, want to keep mobs in front for Block Evade Parry.

Edit - I imagine you also did much better against the Harvester boss in the final Fighter's Guild instance. My low level sorc has a sword and shield (reverting to type again), but Doshia proved impossible that way. Equipped a bow with no skill points, nailed her easily.

Polychrome · May 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

Obviously, there are a lot of people who enjoy the challenging nature of this game, and that if a quest doesn't kill you a dozen times in the process of beating it, it's too easy. The problem is it's a Role Playing Game, and "rezzurecting" really shouldn't be allowed at all - in good old pen and paper D&D, which I played, you die, you reroll, that's it.

I'm adding your post to my personal list of reasons I'm glad SAO is not real.

Anyway...

I think in my case, when I have trouble with a boss fight, I habitually look it up on the internet for hints. And in the case of Doshia, I tried to follow the given pattern all night long and was killed over and over and over and over again until my equipment fell apart... All I could find on the internet were complaints about how "easy" the fight was now.

Came back all repaired the next night, no armor upgrades or levels... She got the orbs before I could (yet again), but for some reason didn't summon them at one point. I ran around in circles firing at her and eventually got the final hit in before she could summon the orbs again. I felt more like I won the RNG game than any sense of victory.

If anything, I wish that boss fight had been less scripted in the first place. Or that the orbs were easier to see. Oh well.

Yankee · May 2014

jesterstear wrote: »

Yankee wrote: »

jesterstear wrote: »

My problem is that I find it really upsetting when my character dies. I get enraged, feel depressed the rest of the evening, start punching the keyboard etc. I'm generally very cautious, build for sustainability, repair often, upgrade often and quest overlevel.

One death on her and i'm going to turn the air blue, beat some keys out of my keyboard (spend the next five minutes looking for them under my desk), get bruised knuckles and be really , really miserable the rest of the evening. I mean , i'm sure there's people who don't mind seeing her get murdered twenty or thirty times in a row, but if that's your thing, why not just rent a slasher movie?

I've also got a sorcerer alt who's a short, plump guy with greasy hair. Even with him though I'm getting fed up after 7 or 8 wipes.

Up to 50 on my Sorcerer I died maybe 5 or 6 times.

In VR running solo I can surpass that number of deaths in half a VR level. You must get a tough keyboard or hopefully be a better player than I.

You must be one hell of a player. I've been really po'd the last two days over the number of deaths I had on my main. Going from 42-43, I've had six deaths. Prior to that maybe I was good for 2 or 3 without death.

I certainly am only a mediocre player. But my Sorcerer is my fourth class taken through EP. I knew the quests. I took a Templar to V1 and a DK to 43 in beta, and my NB to V1 in live. Plus, besides the DK, I think the Sorcerer is the next easiest class to play at least for me.

I am also playing on a self built gaming PC with $1000 video card. Even though I am in the boonies with a ma & pa wireless ISP the response time is still only 50-75 milliseconds most the time. All of these are big advantages.

I think your biggest challenge, as already noted, is ISP/server distance/maybe PC induced lag. This game is not all that forgiving in some encounters when it comes to response time.

The problem is the game gets even less forgiving of lag spikes the higher up you go.