The too easy/too hard debate

tinythinker

I know this has been discussed in other threads, but I hesitate to post in them because they seem to descend very quickly into flaming and hyperbole. I would ask that anyone who wants to go that route pick one of the other threads for such arguing. If you want to vent or name-call, that's your choice, but I'd like to see some polite and detached discussion of the issue. As you may have noticed if you scrolled down some already this post is on the long side, as I want to try to summarize and provide a basis for productive discussion.

Let me start by saying that I empathize with the frustration many people are having. I have been in situations where my character was blown away repeatedly by some solo bosses and other times I was shocked by how easy the fight was. What I'm writing isn't all new ideas but summarizing and elaborating on what has been said with a little new material thrown in as well. I've made it easier to skip to the individual issues you might want to read about with bolded headings.

"Elite Snobs" vs. "Lazy Casuals"

Players of all interests and abilities make up this game, and snap judgements with worn stereotypes might be satisfying for some, but it's counterproductive. Both experienced and casual players are going to be around as long as this game lasts, even if some do leave. Trying to find mutually helpful solutions, even partial solutions, is in everyone's interest. While there have been many suggestions that would need to be implemented by developers, at the end of the day the player community has much it can do to help with ironing out the problems of (solo) boss mobs.

Here are some obvious yet important examples:

1. Don't insult other players for playing more or less well than you and who therefore see the difficulty level of the game differently than you do. Not everyone wants to see the difficulty raised or to see it lowered, and this doesn't make them terrible or selfish. Some players love gaming and want to test themselves with intense challenges. Some players have limited MMO experience, physical disabilities, or slower computers, and they still want to be a part of the game. Be charitable. This is key for everything else that is constructive and helpful.

2. If you are having trouble, ask for help on places like these forums and express gratitude to those who offer it. If you are one of those worried about the game difficulty being lowered, graciously and frequently offer advice and encouragement. Link to tutorial videos on game play and boss fights and offer suggestions about strategy and tactics based on builds and so on. Suggest builds for players whose gaming experience or physical reflexes are limited. The larger the number of players who can successfully get through the content, the less it will be "nerfed".

3. Use or suggest the old beta starting zones. There was a lot of grumbling during beta that many people found them too boring, and those were perfectly valid opinions. Yet those zones are there to help people new to MMOs and to ESO to try out new builds and ease them into game play. Recommend them to starting players and if you are new to the game give them a try.

4. Be patient. No matter what the level of difficulty, some will find it too hard or too easy. If you need to level up more, get better gear, and ask for advice before finishing a quest, there's always another quest to work on. If you're getting bored, find creative ways to challenge yourself and your friends with new builds or specs. If the game is just too easy or too hard to hold your interest long term, that's a shame, but not every game suits every player. Voice your opinion and hope Zenimax listens to and agrees with you.

"Play How You Want"

My own understanding of this may not match yours, but I understood it to mean something like this: "Pick any race, pick any class, and pick any weapon and you can find a way to complete and compete." You may not have the most ripped min-max build, but you aren't going to be stuck with a build that can't make it to end game. That's nice, as I tried to "prep" for ESO by playing very briefly on some free-to-play MMOs after avoiding this genre and found that if I didn't have the exact right combo of skills my character was useless after level 25 or 30.

To me at least this isn't the same as saying, "I can pick whatever I want for my weapon bar and be successful in the game." I know some people lament the skill/class balances, and that is a legitimate concern for those who want to play certain character types or combat styles, but figuring out which skills to use when in your skill line is an essential part of the game. Patience and practice and using the original starter areas for initial experimenting can really help.

I'll use my character as an example. As a Dragonknight, I used Stonefist (later Osidian Shard) and Twin Blades (later Blood Craze) to get through the first 15 or 20 levels, with some Fiery Chains (Extended Chains) and Spiked Armor (Volatile Armor) tossed in along with Dragonknight Standard. I subbed in some other things now and again for different situations, but still this was my bread and butter. Then around levels 35-40 I realized I was slowing down, and I added things like Inhale and replaced Volatile Armor with Obsidian Shield. I also had neglected virtually all of the Earthen Heart passives and remedied that. I am not even close to super-powered -- more like average powered -- and I still get in over my head, but it helped. Quite a bit. I also finally got serious in mid-30s about doing more to developing a back-up weapon beyond casual use and leveling it mostly by leaving one of its skills on my bar. That gave me a ranged option that made my play in some boss battles and dungeon delves much more effective and fun. For example, melee didn't work for me very well against the giant Sinmur the first time I faced him so after my character respawned I went with alternating Healing Springs and the basic attack from a restoration staff with Inhale. It wasn't quick or pretty but it worked. Experimenting is essential.

The "Nerfing" of Tamriel

I am a weak to average player. I am really new to MMOs. I played ESO on the tail end of beta, but only a few characters and none above level 20. Doshia wiped the floor with me at that time. Repeatedly. I had to level up some (well above the stated difficulty level of 12), change strategies, and even then it was a close call. I recall thinking then that it seemed unusually hard compared to what I had experienced up to that point.

Since early release, I've gotten a little better (I hope) but I still struggled in battles with the likes of Fildgor Orcthane. I tried replaying that fight many times, but every idea I came up with was countered by one of his abilities or his speed. I watched video of him being kited and killed in a couple of minutes with no damage to the player's character. That was impressive, but I had to slog it and again, eventually I just barely managed to beat him. I also had to try many times to beat the infamous Doppleganger Tharn, while Doppleganger Lyris wiped me out a few times until I figured out her blind spots. Again, I'm a weak to average player with a plain build.

So I really do sympathize with those who don't want to see the PvE content made too easy and with those who want some parts of it smoothed out a bit. If it's too hard people will quit out of frustration, and if it's too easy people will quit out of boredom. Neither is good business for Zenimax nor the future of the game. That's why compromise solutions are likely the best bet, so that at least some struggling players as well as some highly skilled players can enjoy the game a little more. There will always be some who are going to be dissatisfied, but why not make things more fun for the rest?

Below is the start of a list of possible work-arounds that would need to be implemented on the developer side, and I invite you constructively analyze them or add to the list. I am not necessarily endorsing each and every idea just offering them for consideration:

1. Add an option in the game menu for normal vs. hard difficulty for solo boss encounters like Doshia or Doppleganger Lyris. Experience and loot adjusted by difficulty. Maybe even a special achievement for beating all of the major bosses on hard.

2. Allow a second player for solo boss encounters like Doshia or Doppleganger Lyris. Eliminate loot and character experience rewards for those selecting this option.

3. Have a graded drop-off in difficulty for solo boss encounters for repeated attempts in a single login. Experience and loot adjusted as the difficulty drops.

4. Have (more) solo-instanced boss or even elite-type battles scheduled for levels 1-10 that help introduce certain combat mechanics on the part of mobs to low level characters and give players more experience with them. Some have suggested that players doing a "nerfed" version of level 1-50 PvE will be in for a rude awakening at veteran level play, but I suspect this is actually what is happening as early as level 12 with mobs like Doshia.

5. Improve the tutorials for those going to the old beta starter areas to help new players with basic combat mechanics.

Your Turn

I am really hoping for some good, constructive, and respectful discussion. I'm turning this thread over to the other players on the forum to add their own two cents. I wanted to put all of this in one place since some people seem to be talking past one another even though all sides have something potentially relevant and useful to say. Thanks for reading.

Hypersillyman

This is easily one of the best posts I have ever seen on any MMO forum, EVER. I mean that sincerely. I'll respond to your work-arounds individually.

1. Nice Idea, but I'm not sure how that would work in an MMO. This is similar to the difficulty slider idea that has been presented in other threads, and the concept, while it seems simple, involves rewriting a TON of code multiple times on multiple levels. If someone, somewhere at Zeni can find a way to make this work, I'm all for it. I just don't see that it can.

2. I am a big advocate for allowing these instanced boss fights to be doable in a group. I think it would be the ultimate solution to the problem. Eliminating the xps and loot for doing so, I don't like. Too harsh. Lower it, maybe, but not eliminated entirely.

3. I like this idea exactly as presented. I would be just fine with this. I can see a handful of people who might convince themselves they are gaming the system by logging out after every attempt to reset the rewards, but they would honestly be fooling themselves, and I'm sure, over time, Zeni could find a way to deal with such behavior.

4. Not the best idea. Level 1-10 SHOULD be really easy. These are the levels that bring players into the game. If a player encounters a high difficulty solo-boss encounter too early, it could easily turn them off the game and convince them to leave. Leave 1-10 alone. It's fine the way it is.

5. Could not agree more. The tutorial in the lower level areas is a little sparse right now. The only truly in-depth tutorials in the early game are pop-ups during early use of the menus. People tend to just click past these without even reading them (I know I have once or twice). The only legitimate on-screen, in-game tutorials are the occasional pop-up telling you to block, interrupt, use synergies, etc. These do not pop-up often enough, and when they do they can be hard to see and easy to miss. I'm not saying the should take up half the screen or anything, but making them a little more consistent and a little more noticeable couldn't hurt. Maybe even add a little sound effect to let someone know it's there.

As to your other points. The "Hardcore vs. Casual" argument has been going on since Pong. It will never end. "Hardcore" players will always believe that anyone who doesn't play like them is a total "scrub" and is bringing the entire game down. "Casuals" will always resent "leet" players for blowing through content they struggle with, seeing content they can't get anywhere near, and the condescending attitude that they project. It doesn't help that "Hardcore" has indeed become synonymous with "Elitist Jerk" and "casual" has become synonymous with "lazy scrub". This is a divide that has no solution and stopped making any sort of sense decades ago.

"Play how you want" is so incredibly open to interpretation that there is no way to live up to the standard it sets. The last game I saw that made this claim was GW2, and it ended up being an almost complete fabrication, at least early on. This is a statement that is going to have a completely different meaning for almost everyone who reads/hears it. Honestly, Zeni never should have made this statement, let alone use it as a cornerstone for their marketing. Unfortunately, it's too late now, and the arguments will continue over the voracity of the claim until the servers shut down forever (which will hopefully not be for a very long time).

The nefring of Tamriel is unavoidable. Every previous MMORPG, almost without exception, ends up nerfing the content to some level over the course of its existence. There's just no way around this. Hardcores rage against it, bads love it, casuals take advantage of it (note that casual and bad are 2 different things), and the rest of us just accept it and keep plugging along. Some things are just inevitable.

There. A wall of text as well written as yours deserves a wall of text response.

Enjoy.

AngryNord

Hypersillyman wrote: »

2. I am a big advocate for allowing these instanced boss fights to be doable in a group. I think it would be the ultimate solution to the problem. Eliminating the xps and loot for doing so, I don't like. Too harsh. Lower it, maybe, but not eliminated entirely.

This. It is an MMO, dammit, why force people to solo in the first place???

Kroin

Im quite an old MMO Player, so i dont run into any real problems, sure some fight catch me offguard and i die in a stupid way, but that only happens once or maybe twice.

We are in the release, so there are alot of people and that means 90 % of the time there are other players that will help you with bosses, but after some time this players will be max lvl and new players will struggle with this bosses.

But that's excatly what they need, because they are learning the game from lvl 1.
Now we have alot of players that got pushed throw every boss and they need to fight a few bosses alone and just get there ass kicked, because they have no idear, when to block, dodge etc...

tinythinker

Hypersillyman wrote: »

There. A wall of text as well written as yours deserves a wall of text response.

Enjoy.

Thanks. I know it was long, but I figured it would be better to get the big picture of the debate all at once. I guess I could have boiled it down to: 1) Be patient and helpful, 2) Don't judge/harass others for having different needs and wants, and 3) Consider solutions involve giving help to those who need it but still giving a challenge/reward to those who want it.

Good points/observations on the list of potential fixes.

Dropping the loot/xp for those who get assistance or giving better/loot xp for those who don't get it was just a way to compromise for those who want to feel rewarded for doing it on their own, but I personally feel no need for such.

The whole adding in more solo instances in 1-10 idea isn't for true big bosses, but more like a "tougher than the average mob but still something where you can figure out (how to block/avoid) its one big attack right away" kind of thing. Don't block/avoid? Lose half your health and if you miss again respawn in the same spot to retry. In other words, offer a gentle learning curve for choosing and using abilities and practicing combat skills. There are some mobs kind of like that in the first few levels for some quests but they are not instanced to a single player so those mobs just get swarmed.

Again, I'm not wedded to any particular solution, just wanting to toss them out/repeat them from other discussions and maybe get some new ones offered so they can be refined. I'm sure Zenimax has their own internal numbers and methods for deciding when to adjust difficulty, but if the community comes up with some good ideas for improvements that fit the company's plans and goals that's great for the developers since it's work being done for free and it enhances their reputation for "listening to the players".

Chirru

The solution is easy. Do as other MMO's have done. Give a choice before entering any of the (now) solo dungeon. Something like 'solo play' or 'group play'. This would allow anyone to take a friend or two along if they think the fight is too tough.

In my experience, on a par level, bosses are manageable for an experienced player, difficult for the less experienced player and almost impossible for the Newbee.

So a limited choice as to the difficult level would go a long way.

South_of_Heaven

I like your solutions, like options to get help but with no loot and adjustment of difficulty and loot, they are fair.

I will tell you why I lose my patience with people who start a thread and ask for things to be nerfed.

It is not wise or proper to put people into categories, but I will do it for the sake of analyzing this a little further.
From my experience a 99.9% (if not 100%) of these people fall into these categories (sorry if I come off as judgemental, I'll try and to be as civil as possible):

1) People unwilling to wipe
They have already wiped a few times, think of how the repair costs are hindering them from getting the, for example, horse they really want early and get frustrated even more. No willingness for experimentation.

2) People who have little time for games
Similar to the first category these people have jobs and don't have much time to progress. The game though, lets them progress easily in everything else. When they encounter the solo content, which needs effort/time to complete they are frustrated as they may be required to sacrifice a whole day from their point of view. I have a friend in this category.

3) People who believe that winning is a given in games
They may come back from their work, tired and getting all kinds of psychological pressure from their employers all day long. As many in this situation have expressed in many conversations I had with them, is that they expect the game they play to reward them - to give them something without conditions, like the ones they have in real life.
In this category also fall the people who are too used to games being something that require no effort and offer entertainment *exclusively* through reward.

PS: These people have never saved the princess ;p

4) People who are quick to judge
Our society is full of them - I am sometimes one of them myself. They engage in a fight without the proper preparation and have gotten used to the low difficulty of previous bosses. The fight seems impossible to them and they find this absurd, so they are quick to come to the forums and make a thread asking of what is going on.


Besides some years of experience, an exp. psych degree and many conversations I had regarding difficulty, I have a real life friend with a physical disability affecting his motor skills even on the keyboard. And when he sees these kinds of "impossible,nerf" threads, you know what he does? He "facepalms" (even if that's hard for him).

So no, I don't accept these "myths" about "not having mmo experience", physical disabilities or even slow computers, since in my hometown I play ESO on minimum on an *ancient* rig. As for physical disabilities - should we turn the game into a movie to cover for the worst physical disability there is? No and I know for a fact that my friend himself would not want to see the game tailored to his needs and disability. The same applies to the people in the categories above.

One thing I believe is at fault, is that people haven't realized that they can severely overlevel the content by leaving and coming back after a few levels. Most haven't gotten used to this kind of things in modern mmorpgs, where most things are very straightforward.

Finally, it's not about "casuals and hardcore".
There will always be ones who will complain about difficulty until the game becomes as difficult as farmville - mostly people who fall into the categories above, who also tend to be the most vocal. I consider myself a casual and I find it slightly annoying that people mix casuals with this 3rd category of people.

Vanguard1

2. Allow a second player for solo boss encounters like Doshia or Doppleganger Lyris. Eliminate loot and character experience rewards for those selecting this option.

I personally agree with this option, including the no loot part of it. If you are not able to complete the content as intended then there should be no reward for doing so.

One thing all MMO players have seen over and over again, is the fact that players get to the top level and then want to group up for the end game;however, they often lack the skill and awareness to complete the content and cause the group to fail. For this reason, I don't believe nerfing is a solution, unless the majority can not complete the particular fight. If 60% of the players can beat the content as is, than other options should be considered, rather than making it so all the players now have it to easy.

Guild leaders from previous games have all had a handful of nice guys that want to group up but are unable to learn the basic mechanics of the fights, and then are forced remove them players from the group and it causes hard feelings. These guys are usually friends by the time end game comes around and it is not an easy process to tell friends they are not good enough to join the groups anymore.

I don't want to see players alienated by content at all; however, if players are not able to complete the first 50 levels, walking them through it is going to make help them in the end game. MMO's are not meant for players that just want to face roll content, there are mechanics involved and we all have to learn our own players strengths and weaknesses. Dying is a great learning tool, although it causes a lot of frustration. All MMO players should keep an open mind and try to change up what they are doing after each death until they find what works.

Sakiri

To be fair, I wouldnt remove xp(being groupped already kills xp), but loot? Ive never had storyline bosses drop anything but potions and gold anyway.

BlueAvenger

tinythinker wrote: »

1. Add an option in the game menu for normal vs. hard difficulty for solo boss encounters like Doshia or Doppleganger Lyris. Experience and loot adjusted by difficulty. Maybe even a special achievement for beating all of the major bosses on hard.

My suggestion:

Add a Kill Log interface (I think its already on its way to Live server) which also hints that the player who is getting killed all the time needs to beef up his armor. Do some crafting or get some mats and get someone to make him good gear.
This will promote longer gameplay which will eventually be a LOT more fun when its completed.

My Main Idea: Make all dungeon bosses have 3 times the health but half the damage. What this will do is, you get to use all your abilities and also think about sustain vs damage.
This alone will be so rewarding that you will feel very intelligent after defeating the boss.
The other reason I mention this is because most of the times its either too easy or too hard and there is no middle ground when dealing with Bosses.
If these bosses did half the damage and had 3 times the health each boss battle would last at least 4 to 5 mins which is quite awesome in my opinion.
But as of now what happens is if you know that some bosses are hard you gather up good gear and potions and you kill the boss so quickly that the boss has no time to even use HIS own abilities...making it a very boring and easy task.

BloodStorm

Most people who complain do not like thinking for themselves so the game becomes hard. They are used to WoW and other MMO's where curtain things are concrete in a class like pets and curtain weapons and so on. In this game you can play anyway you want for the most part but some ways are going to be way better for PVP and other for PVE. for example a Daedric summoner sorcerer makes PVE childs play but pets in PVP is pretty much a waste. I see so many people making single target builds or builds with no CC and expect to faceroll PVE content. Very few builds transfer well from PVE to PVP and vice versa. PVE is harder because you cant just burst one thing down and be done for the most part. Actually need good timing and CC.

Shaun98ca2

I believe Forced Solo content should provide only a slight amount of difficulty.

Your real challenges should lie in the rest of the game that can be done with groups of people. This allows you to take on the content how you want say a World Boss with just 2 people or even try to solo it.

Dark Anchors should be VERY challenging almost requiring a group of 6 to complete.

I would maybe like to see a Coliseum type deal for groups of players where the content just keeps getting progressively harder and harder.

But I understand why we have the Forced Solo content for story reasons but the solo content SHOULDNT be the challenge in the game.

SteveCampsOut

Loved the long post but here's my short answer. There should NEVER be a quest so difficult that it totally blocks your access to new content! EVER! Being locked out of VR content because one can't finish off Molag Bal means, no, I don't have more quests to complete if I have cleared every quest and mapped every area and collected every skill point between starting zone and Final Main quest! I'm not one for calling for a nerf to any mob or quest, but there has to at least be a decent path around it if necessary, IE: Travel To Player to get to the VR content if necessary! If level 3 gold farmers can Travel To Player in Gold Harbor to do a high Gold easy mode quest over and over again, Why can't I use it, as a well traveled well versed VR1 player, to access the next content I'm leveled for?

We need a way around an obstacle if we can't get through it right away! At lower levels, I had other quests to follow and areas to explore to get past Doshia so I could come back later and try with a more balanced toon. By the time I got to Manimarco, I breezed past him with my Sorcerer without breaking a sweat. I AM a seasoned casual player having spent 3 years in UO, a year on EverCrack and over 6 years in DAoC with some free to play in between DAoC and TESO. I'm not calling for anything to be nerfed! Never have, never will, but damnit, give me a way around Molag Bal that will level me up more so I CAN go back and kick his ass. I have every Skyshard between starting zone and Cyrodil except the 4 behind the locked scroll gates of the other 2 factions and have completed all the quests and group dungeons that give skill points between there and here and now, here's my only choice. Go PVP past VR1 a few levels and come back. No new exploration because that path is blocked off. I have 30 days left on my subscription and I fear I won't find a way past that between now and then unless something is done. A Simple Travel to Player for VR content is ALL I'm asking for. Not a Nerf!

GreySix

All I want is the ability to group with my wife in every instance.

Really. That's all.

SteveCampsOut

FINALLY! After some help from a guildie with gold for a respec, I got Annulment & Entropy and was able to Block/Kyte/Heal/Shield/Circle of FlameStaff Fire AOE all around his feet and took him down in 5 minutes! Feels great knowing the trick and I was able to do it WITH my arthritic hands no less!

Melian

I really would dislike suggestion 3. I don't want bosses nerfed just because I die - that would rob the victory of all its joy, for me.

I like suggestions 4 and 5, though.
Perhaps tips on strategy for beating the bosses could be built into the game more - the sort of thing you could find from helpful people on the forums, but in the form of an in-game book, an NPC of your class, something like that.

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Loved the long post but here's my short answer. There should NEVER be a quest so difficult that it totally blocks your access to new content! EVER! Being locked out of VR content because one can't finish off Molag Bal means, no, I don't have more quests to complete if I have cleared every quest and mapped every area and collected every skill point between starting zone and Final Main quest!

On the other hand, when you get to the first veteran zone it's such a great feeling because you had to beat Molag Bal to get there.

Melian

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I believe Forced Solo content should provide only a slight amount of difficulty.

Your real challenges should lie in the rest of the game that can be done with groups of people. This allows you to take on the content how you want say a World Boss with just 2 people or even try to solo it.

So people who don't belong to a raiding guild are barred from all interesting content, like in WoW. No thanks.

I'm not sure why people think attempting to solo a group boss is somehow equivalent to a challenging boss designed for soloing. It isn't.

Cogo

Very pleasant post to read in the morning!

I think most of the wow whiners seams to gone, so we can have real discussions here.

Kodus to the OP! Very nice post indeed.

My view on SOME quests beeing Solo only makes sense. It tests your skills, probebly is part of some of your "personal" adventure like the main quest.....but there are others thats solo only.

I think the biggest reason why solo only quests instances doesnt allow a friend is that it would make the solo instance moot.....its not solo anymore.

I LIKE them, though I play in a party most of the day.

I didnt like when they nerfed Doisha, but what can you do. What I DO like is that for once I am happy a game "copies" some of their quests *GRIN*

There are more "Doshia" encounters to come. BUT as the core of ESO, the world is you to choose what you want to do, so you dont need to do these solo quests if you dont want too (other then the main quest).

I ran into one of these quests by accident when I was lost and tried to get back to a wayshrine. Took a good time to do that quest, but guess what, it gave a skillpoint! Glad I get lost every now and then! Hehe.

Shaun98ca2

Melian wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I believe Forced Solo content should provide only a slight amount of difficulty.

Your real challenges should lie in the rest of the game that can be done with groups of people. This allows you to take on the content how you want say a World Boss with just 2 people or even try to solo it.

So people who don't belong to a raiding guild are barred from all interesting content, like in WoW. No thanks.

I'm not sure why people think attempting to solo a group boss is somehow equivalent to a challenging boss designed for soloing. It isn't.

World Bosses are already at the level I recommended for the most part. Some bosses are next to impossible to solo while other are WAY easy.

World Bosses in general should probably scale with the number of people attacking it as the same should go for Dark Anchors.

But we currently have the 1% that find the game just too easy in every shape and form and others that are struggling to pass content at is required to progress on your own.

My suggestion bring difficulty to the game. Im not asking for it to be so difficult that only the 1% can pass but difficult enough so they can find enjoyable challenge in the game. World Bosses SHOULD be that for them, while the rest resort to DUOing to pass the content because it is an option.

atomikrej

I like this thread. I had similar challenges to the OP as far as the boss fights are concerned and I too picked DK in the Ebonheart Pact and used the same abilities throughout the game. Though I recently completed the main quest, I did struggle at times and am sure there are classes better suited and worse suited for the main story.

About the points:
1. This would be quite a challenge having to rebalance the bosses and account for the different classes.
2. That's a pretty good idea and something that would only affect the game positively. I think they were talking about improving grouping in the AMA. Not sure if that includes main quest grouping.
3. That's ok if it was optional but personally I like the current system. At some points when I died to an enemy repeatedly it was a wake up call that I needed to try out some new abilities.
Can't really comment on 4 and 5 having no difficulty with the early game myself.

I feel like this whole debate could be null if they allowed grouping in main quest. Then they wouldn't have to nerf mannimarco, doshia etc, while still allowing all players to defeat Molag Bal.

AngryNord

atomikrej wrote: »

I feel like this whole debate could be null if they allowed grouping in main quest. Then they wouldn't have to nerf mannimarco, doshia etc, while still allowing all players to defeat Molag Bal.

Agreed. I am sure they could find a mechanic where you could only bring one other person, for example? I have found that many bosses become ridiculously easy even With only one other person.

Yankee

If they allow grouping for the main story boss fights then it should be only one more person. Because I have to wonder if allowing a full group might make it too easy for groups of bots to get into VR content.

I am also curious how many people who had huge trouble getting past Mannimarco/Molag/etc find soloing in mid to high vet zones easy?

Just like for Molag, I had to reconsider some of the skills I was using once I got into vet content and have to stop sometimes and think about how to approach a battle when soloing there. I had no great problems, but still the main quest fights were good for me on the three classes I have taken through them. They pointed out weaknesses in my builds that helped later.

What I am getting at is that perhaps fights such as Mannimarco and Molag are not really a bad thing to be difficult if you plan to run solo in higher content,

Now if you are always going to run with a partner or group through all content I could more understand wanting to group main quest stuff.

GreySix

Yankee wrote: »

Now if you are always going to run with a partner or group through all content I could more understand wanting to group main quest stuff.

This is us - in fact, the only reason we bought two games and two subscriptions.

tinythinker

Wow, I thought this post had sunk to the depths of forum obscurity. I really like the additional suggestions and the critiques of the ideas listed. Again, I'm not sure which ones (those I thought of, those I summarized from other threads) are really the best from a coding and customer satisfaction perspective as I don't know the inner workings of the game design philosophy or what the numbers on character progression look like. But there does seem to be some limited consensus in the various threads about what kinds of things people think would work and what people would like to see. Amazing!

Melian wrote: »

I really would dislike suggestion 3. I don't want bosses nerfed just because I die - that would rob the victory of all its joy, for me.

I like suggestions 4 and 5, though.
Perhaps tips on strategy for beating the bosses could be built into the game more - the sort of thing you could find from helpful people on the forums, but in the form of an in-game book, an NPC of your class, something like that.

Yeah, 4 and 5 seem to be fairly non-controversial as it just means giving more help to newer players while letting them have fun. Nothing too rough or discouraging, just something that helps bridge the gap for later challenges. The idea behind 3 is that if you don't want the difficulty reduced just relog after losing more than a few times to keep the difficulty downgrade from kicking in. That way the auto-nerf can be avoided by those who want to keep things more challenging.

And by the way, yes, I still get stuck.

(MINOR SPOILER JUST BELOW!)

I am VR 5 and I am doing something at the end of the Daggerfall Covenenant campaign ("Storming the Garrison") that involves soloing a Daedra at a dolmen (i.e. a "dark/sky anchor" site) who has a deadly combination of up close and ranged abilities (i.e. you try to adjust to one and get slammed by another) who also summons other Daedra. The latter is the kicker. I will have to try it again eventually I suppose, but I wiped the first couple of attempts. Badly. Very, very badly.

(Edit to update: Decided to log in real quick just try Moath "Mr 13K hit points" and took him down relatively easy in one try. I must have been really tired the other night. Or else there was a nerf in the most recent patch. I am thinking the former.)

OK, back to your thoughts and suggestions!

Amfijakerwb17_ESO

This is a subject that is hard. It is especially hard in this game because the difficulty seem to differ so much in different aspects of the game. During levelling in veteran levels i found myself dying often. I actually was impressed and at times frustrated with the level of difficulty. I can understand why this is causing issues for the majority of the player base. I especially hated how Zenimax just turned all elite mobs into complete bulletspunges in VR zones. Whenever i got to any kind of elite mob it was the boring routine of, CC, left click for 1-3minutes. Whenever i faced a troll, giant or other "big mobs" in the high level VR areas i was just completely bypassing them because left clicking the same mob for more than 5 minutes is not really very interresting.
On the other hand i now do a lot of VR10 dungeons and these are a pure cake walk for most of my groups. Wayrest sewers for instance is usually being cleared in under 15 minutes. I think 10 minutes was the fastest i experienced. I think that both "casual" and "hardcore" players will agree that doing a VR10 dungeon in 15 minutes on average is not something that should be attainable.
I personally hope that the difficulty in Craglorn is tuned up a bit from the VR10 dungeons. I think most players, even the casuals will come to share that sentiment when they try out the VR10 dungeons.

LonePirate

Another thing to keep in mind here is the stat increase/buff that comes from your Home campaign in Cyrodiil. My Home campaign is one that is completely dominated by another faction which controls every single keep, outpost, resource and scroll on the map. Every single one as my faction and the other underdog faction do not control a single item. Members of that dominant faction are receiving all sorts of buffs making the game seem easier than it is while those of us in these two underdog factions are receiving nothing. These buffs can make a big difference and most of the time they go unnoticed unless your Home campaign has a lot of turnover, unlike mine.

SootyTX

LonePirate wrote: »

Another thing to keep in mind here is the stat increase/buff that comes from your Home campaign in Cyrodiil. My Home campaign is one that is completely dominated by another faction which controls every single keep, outpost, resource and scroll on the map. Every single one as my faction and the other underdog faction do not control a single item. Members of that dominant faction are receiving all sorts of buffs making the game seem easier than it is while those of us in these two underdog factions are receiving nothing. These buffs can make a big difference and most of the time they go unnoticed unless your Home campaign has a lot of turnover, unlike mine.

First of all - OP, thank you for a great post and a fantastic attitude towards the game and the community.

Now - I don't PvP in MMOs (I find it alternatively tedious or incredibly frustrating) so I'm curious, and a little concerned, over the level of PvE buffing being provided to the winning side in the PvP campaigns. These sorts of things can definitely have an impact on the perception of difficulty or not within the game.

Personally, my preferred option would be (2) with a heavy dose of 4 & 5 to support it. There are an awful lot of couples/pairs of friends that play and simply want to do it this way and its a very simple solution which has no impact on the 'keep it difficult' crowd. Maybe not eliminate the reward totally, but certainly reduce it.

One of my biggest gripes with the game (which I still love) is the lack of feedback during combat, both to your character and to the mob. It's almost impossible to see bleed effects etc in the middle of battle and, to go back to our old friend Doshia, it really wasn't at all clear what the orbs were doing. For my first 4 or 5 wipes there I assumed, logically I feel, they would actually damage me if I touched them and so tried to avoid them. Better visual and audio cues would go a long way to helping players understand what's happening in a fight.

GreySix

I save PvP for FPS like Star Wars Battlefront.

Heraclea

For me the problem isn't so much 'too easy' or 'too hard'; it's the unevenness and spiky nature of the hardest parts. Some bosses, like any Harvester, are a bit much for me. I actively avoid them or wait for a large group to pass through. Lyris doppelganger, a level 30 boss, was a harder fight at level 43 than Molag Bal was at level 48.

I found Molag Bal to be an exciting and well balanced encounter, myself, playing on a full-tanking DK. Other classes may have a different experience. It took quite some time, and I didn't beat him the first time through, and there were some close calls when I actually made it, but the fight held my attention. But aggroing a Harvester solo means dead in two seconds and nothing you can do to save yourself.

Kendaric

Heraclea wrote: »

For me the problem isn't so much 'too easy' or 'too hard'; it's the unevenness and spiky nature of the hardest parts. Some bosses, like any Harvester, are a bit much for me. I actively avoid them or wait for a large group to pass through. Lyris doppelganger, a level 30 boss, was a harder fight at level 43 than Molag Bal was at level 48.

I found Molag Bal to be an exciting and well balanced encounter, myself, playing on a full-tanking DK. Other classes may have a different experience. It took quite some time, and I didn't beat him the first time through, and there were some close calls when I actually made it, but the fight held my attention. But aggroing a Harvester solo means dead in two seconds and nothing you can do to save yourself.

That's basically the situation my main character, also DK (two-handed), was in. Even at level 49 I couldn't take down the Harvesters unless Standard of Might was up.
Now, admittedly, it doesn't really help that I avoid using class skills as much as possible. I want a warrior (those weird guys who use weapons to fight... ), not some freakish dragon-mage-warrior crossover character with overly flashy VFX.
That, however, makes a lot of fights extremely difficult, especially as class skills are a lot more powerful than weapon skills and magicka is only used to fuel skills not to dodge/block/interrupt/CC break and fuel weapon skills like stamina.

GreySix

Kendaric wrote: »

I want a warrior (those weird guys who use weapons to fight... ), not some freakish dragon-mage-warrior crossover character with overly flashy VFX.

That's my wife to a T; she'll be hacking and whacking on a foe, oblivious to her character's own draining health.

It's then that my character steps in to heal or draw the foe's attention from her.

Sadly, can't do that in solo-only instances into which she's forced, and we'll reach the point where she'll just quit and then we'll both unsubscribe.

Hopefully, they fix the game before it comes to that.