The classes should still have their own unique skills to identify them as their class. But the potential for how well they perform compared to the other classes should not be that difficult. Overcompensating one class to catch up with the others just keeps the circle going.

It will never happen because there always will be someone complaining for one reason or another.

From my PoV there were a couple of reasons why combat balance seems to be locked in a permanent state of disrepair. These are just opinions though.

1. Intentional imbalance: They heavily tried to push meta changes and FotM gameplay as patch features to keep up engagement from a certain subset of players. This type of combat design keeps players with a competitive attitude and low roleplay commitment engaged. The allure of capitalizing on advantages paired with a general shake-up compensates (to a degree) for the lack of inherent commitment to the game as such (classical roleplaying as in a single player TES game). This is by default a sell-out strategy that forgoes real improvement for the sake of novelty every time the meta is manipulated like this. It worked better in the past, where the game generally promised rapid development, growth and long term stability. It seems the fatigue with this strategy is now exacting a heavy toll.

2a. Lack of developer vision: The project has been going for a long time and responsibilities are shared across a comparatively large studio. Compromises have to be made and a single developer likely doesn't have the time or motivation to explore combat to the extent a customer would. It is a very common problem that the highest level of insight is not available at the highest level of agency.

2b. Complacency and reactive design: This pretty much ties into the previous point, but it goes a bit deeper. ZOS has delivered pretty outstanding combat updates throughout the games development. They have however also often failed to provide the necessary adjustments to combat systems that were directly affected by some of the major changes. To keep the quality of a complex product at a very high, internationally competitive level, you don't just need people who do their jobs. You need obsessed nerds. You simply can't afford to slip up, miss out and postpone essential changes time and time again. The consequences of the errors will start to outpace the teams capacities. Also, the gaming market isn't growing like it used to. As harsh as it may sound, some of the staff may simply not be aware of how much their contributions can shape the experience in game and affect the overall health of the product. Gaming is a relatively low impact industry (compared to, e.g., the pharmaceutical industry), where the level of scrutiny doesn't really match the magnitude of the financial consequences too well. This is a difficult topic at the intersection of artistic freedom, customer satisfaction, and shareholder obligations, and we can probably fill a thread talking about this. The gist of it is, that they may not even be aware how far off the target their performance might be.

3. Feedback: To keep this short and brutally honest, I'll enounce the unspeakable. There was some truth to a couple of Rich Lamberts remarks regarding customer reactions. Without mincing words, some of the feedback is worthless. There is a plethora of uninformed, selfish, unfair, and needless feedback. It is completely fair for players not to reach ESO-enlightenment and to still have an opinion. But it can become problematic when certain opinions get amplified in an echo chamber and similarly uninformed executives start to demand the wrong solutions. A bit like pebbles triggering a landslide (#EarthenHeart). There have been changes where you can clearly see that the intentions were good, but where it is also evident that the results affected the game negatively. Especially the dance around accessibility, power creep and oversimplification has costed a lot of dev time. And judging by the current feedback, you'd be hard pressed to quantify the progress.

The universal conclusion to your main question and to the problems I outlined is actually surprisingly concise and simple. Yes, balance can achieved. They really just need the right guys, in the right positions, to make the right decisions. It sounds maybe a bit cynical, but creating less issues will make positive changes count for more, even if the development pace has slowed down.

Valkanos wrote: »

Take a look at WW. I know I can be kind of aggressive when I express myself, but I can say nice things too. WW was, without question, another great rework. Players liked it. 1bar, 2bar, everyone was playing and using WW. We saw them everywhere.
WW added nothing but positivity. No gatekeeping, no toxicity, nothing. It was, in fact, 100% welcomed by the community. Anyone could use it, try it, and enjoy it without being judged or pushed away. And for what? To be nerfed in U51. It’ll be nothing more than a useless class again.

On PTS the big WW changes are to ability costs, which only affect PVP, difficult solo PVE gameplay (like a vet DLC dungeon not a world boss or whatever) and tanking DLC dungeons/trials (which was already undesirable anyway). We all know you don't engage in any of these activities so at least keep your whining focused and based on truths (or at least half thruths). Even the person who has been complaining about the PVP nerfs to WW on the forums could tell you that PVE damage dealing of WWs is effectively untouched. If you get kicked from group finder next patch on your wolf it's not because WW damage has magically been reduced, it's because of some other reason (or misinformation in the playerbase about WW damage that you yourself are spreading).

kevkj wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Take a look at WW. I know I can be kind of aggressive when I express myself, but I can say nice things too. WW was, without question, another great rework. Players liked it. 1bar, 2bar, everyone was playing and using WW. We saw them everywhere.
WW added nothing but positivity. No gatekeeping, no toxicity, nothing. It was, in fact, 100% welcomed by the community. Anyone could use it, try it, and enjoy it without being judged or pushed away. And for what? To be nerfed in U51. It’ll be nothing more than a useless class again.

On PTS the big WW changes are to ability costs, which only affect PVP, difficult solo PVE gameplay (like a vet DLC dungeon not a world boss or whatever) and tanking DLC dungeons/trials (which was already undesirable anyway). We all know you don't engage in any of these activities so at least keep your whining focused and based on truths (or at least half thruths). Even the person who has been complaining about the PVP nerfs to WW on the forums could tell you that PVE damage dealing of WWs is effectively untouched. If you get kicked from group finder next patch on your wolf it's not because WW damage has magically been reduced, it's because of some other reason (or misinformation in the playerbase about WW damage that you yourself are spreading).

Bro... PvP players complain about everything. They cried about DK, they went "mimimi" over WW, and now it's Sorcerer. I have nothing against PvP players at all, but so much of this game's balance is a mess because of PvP.
Btw... where can I buy a crystal ball like yours?

No. The system is far too complex for it to be perfectly balanced and even if it were it would get still. The goal is never perfect balance because there will always be genuine room for improvement. The goal is to get things feeling fun and to change things up often enough that everyone feels they gonna get their turn but not in a way that requires constant grinding of gear.

Valkanos wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

No. The system is far too complex for it to be perfectly balanced and even if it were it would get still. The goal is never perfect balance because there will always be genuine room for improvement. The goal is to get things feeling fun and to change things up often enough that everyone feels they gonna get their turn but not in a way that requires constant grinding of gear.

"Feeling fun for everyone"?? Tell that to Oakensoul\1bar players...

I said the goal. I was talking about the ideal state not current balance.

i expent a 3 page essay from everyone by next week

And here we go again. Another PvP topic asking the PvP team to balance the unbalanced skills in PvP, which will probably result even more in unbalancing the already-unbalanced PvE Damage. All of this just to rebalance the unbalanced balance that both teams are trying to balance across PvE\PvP, while buff the unbalancing and nerf the balance that was never balanced in the first place.

So... how can you even ask; "Is class balance even possible?" It’s 100% impossible. xD

They don't need to be balanced in terms of spreadsheet values. A dot class shouldn't have the same values as a non-dot class. Some classes should have more sustain. Other more innate burst. They should however have tradeoffs. You should not be able to have it all like live DK. That just creates a sloppy gaming experience in my opinion.

It is a lot harder to balance now because subclassing was introduced like many of us told zos it would be when they announced the idea.

Valkanos wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are numerous threads saying "nerf this" or "buff this" or "rework this" but why even bother? Every time one class is reworked then the rest of the classes fall behind and need reworked to catch up. But they never achieve balance.
I don't understand why the classes need to be constantly reworked. Why is it so hard to just make them equal in their skills and potentials?

No. Class balance will NEVER be complete in ESO. It’s nothing more than a mirage. It simply won’t happen.
Just look at the DK. ZoS actually did an amazing job with the class. It was really nice work. It was good, it was fun... and then... nerf! Now it’s practically useless.
Take a look at WW. I know I can be kind of aggressive when I express myself, but I can say nice things too. WW was, without question, another great rework. Players liked it. 1bar, 2bar, everyone was playing and using WW. We saw them everywhere.
WW added nothing but positivity. No gatekeeping, no toxicity, nothing. It was, in fact, 100% welcomed by the community. Anyone could use it, try it, and enjoy it without being judged or pushed away. And for what? To be nerfed in U51. It’ll be nothing more than a useless class again.

ZoS can’t completely balance the classes, and they never will. They’ll change this, change that, and do whatever they can to keep ESO alive until The Elder Scrolls VI is released. Then... R.I.P.

And you know what? This isn’t entirely ZoS’s fault. It’s the players’ fault. PvP players, PvE players, because we’re never happy.
Oakensoul was amazing for the game... we made it useless. Because 1bar players can't parse higher than bad 2bar players.
DK was so damn good... we made it useless. Why? Because ZoS is, in fact, trying to start balancing the classes while reworking them at the same time. No one seems to understand that DK was just reworked, and that other classes will be reworked too.
WW was so damn good... oh boy... my dear WW... And you know what? We ask for the nerfs. Because apparently a damn 1bar build can’t be good.

So NO. We will NEVER have balance in this game, because we don’t really want.
We just want our numbers to go higher and higher, as long as it’s our beloved build. Everything else? Nerf it.

So... what exactly are “we” crying about here?

Sorry if I sound damn toxic or rude, but this is the damn truth. We only want balance when it comes to our own class. All the others? "Nerf them, please".

They should just take a page out of Warframe's book and play into the player power creep fantasy. Most people play this game like it's solo anyway and every Elder Scrolls game allows and expects player power creep.

SilverBride wrote: »

There are numerous threads saying "nerf this" or "buff this" or "rework this" but why even bother? Every time one class is reworked then the rest of the classes fall behind and need reworked to catch up. But they never achieve balance.

I don't understand why the classes need to be constantly reworked. Why is it so hard to just make them equal in their skills and potentials?

Well... This is the plan with the class refresh. They had the right idea with DK and WW.

The problem is just that they're doing one refresh at a time. Instead of you know, like any sane developer would do, which is work on them all at once, then finish them all before they release any on a live update, all at the same time...

Because these are all temporary balance changes. They're quick and reactionary because they literally dug that hole themselves.

The only fix is either 1) removing DK and WW refreshes from the game and reimplementing them later or 2) continue with *** for two years until they finally finish releasing the refreshes.

And we know that they won't do 1

Until PvP has the same limited and equal skillset for all classes, then there will never be anything resembling "balance", at least not in the eyes of the players.

Anyone thinking the class refreshes would magically create balance were having wishful thinking.

Is perfect balance possible? No. Things are different and will inherently be different.

But that doesn’t mean the answer is to just make things broken.

Bad balance does still have effects in PvE. After all, how many “these groups aren’t letting me play because they want no Oakensorcs/Templars/healers/whatever!!!” threads have we seen lately? All of those are because of hideous balancing even in PvE, where some things are just incredibly underpowered compared to others. Sure, some of that is build choice that players could change themselves (like Rakkhat is generally a better heavy attack mythic for groups than Oakensoul since you are then able to get buffs from groupmates), but others are just people being exclusionary [snip]s (yes, each Class can do the DPS needed for 99% of the content in the game and you don’t need to use the OP Class).

What really is needed is the Combat Team to stop being so swingy with balance changes. It’s really at the point where it almost feels like combat changes are random rather than something people can predict. Combat pendulum swings are just exhausting.

We need a Combat Team that either plays at a high level, or at least has their finger on the pulse of endgame. But… well, ask any PvPer about what they thought of the lead’s ability when he streamed it (and then the VOD was quickly deleted). And we used to have streamer trials with the devs, but the Combat Lead wasn’t involved there (it was the Encounters lead who did play at a high level, but he’s been laid off). Basically, it seems that the Combat Team has no concept of how the balance changes affect the game, and therefore they can’t see the problems… beyond whiny people being whiny.

Is it possible? Reasonable balance is 100% possible. It's important to understand "reasonable" because there will always be a meta and something is bound to be seen as "the best" according to public opinion and the average player playstyle preference. There is no world where these forums or content creators are not complaining about what kills them in game. However, I do think you can close the gap enough that no matter what you play, you enjoy your time and have moments where you feel strong. The despair around ESO's balancing antics is always because a large chunk of the community has to settle with feeling weak and just food for other's enjoyment.

Nevertheless, here's why balance in ESO has never been achieved: The vision of ESO suffers from multiple personalities.

Let's take DK, for example. DK's class identity is supposed to be that traditional "stand your ground" warrior with a Dragon aesthetic. That means the class is inherently tanky prior to any gear layered on top. He also might have SOME burst to secure kills but his overall damage profile will be sustained heavy pressure. He punishes you for not respecting his presence. However, the weakness of this archetype is always its mobility. Yet they gave mobility on his wings... You can't be "stand your ground" yet be moving at mach speeds. He also shouldn't insta-kill you in a global. He's not an assassin. However, that's exactly what DK can do.

Or, we have Sorc (mainly referring to Magsorc). Sorc is a high mobility mage. Their primary gameplay loop should be maintaining distance doing heavy setup burst. However, what we have is a mage that's just as stand your ground as DK because he gets to spam shields that skyrocket his EHP to raid boss levels, and easily recoup lost HP and stam/mag, while having the best AOE CC in the game that they can just spam, which also is attached to the best mobility skill in the game. There is no downside.. when in doubt, press streak. They added a debuff for constantly spamming streak years ago and overtime they have killed any balance it used to provide (managing resources is no longer relevant).

Now of course ESO isn't like most other MMOs. There's a lot of grey area. You can try to make a Sorc Warrior but for the sake of balance it should never be as frontline holding as DK. Also, the primary method to twist the class identity should always come from other gameplay systems. That way you insure what each class is at a baseline. If not, why bother with classes?And, if they want to homogenize everyone and make sustain not matter, then they should do that across the board. That would also achieve reasonable balance (although not as interesting from a player pov, it's easier to balance).

However, ESO periodically gets sweeping changes that doesn't adhere to any balancing attempts of the past or present. Class identity is often the basis of the changes but do they ever hold up? Every major combat balance may start with good intentions but for every reason they give for making x change, there's y that contradicts it.