Is class balance even possible?

SilverBride · August 31

There are numerous threads saying "nerf this" or "buff this" or "rework this" but why even bother? Every time one class is reworked then the rest of the classes fall behind and need reworked to catch up. But they never achieve balance.

I don't understand why the classes need to be constantly reworked. Why is it so hard to just make them equal in their skills and potentials?

valenwood_vegan · August 31

I had a tiny bit of hope that this was essentially the plan with the class refreshes, but with that on hold they've fallen right back to quick, poorly thought out, reactionary combat changes. And with that approach, the cycle will never end.

(I mean, perfect balance might never be possible unless all the classes and skills are direct copies of each other, but with proper thought and planning, it could be possible to make each class perform reasonably close to the others while still being unique and fun to play.).

SilverBride · August 31

The classes should still have their own unique skills to identify them as their class. But the potential for how well they perform compared to the other classes should not be that difficult. Overcompensating one class to catch up with the others just keeps the circle going.

Valkanos · August 31

SilverBride wrote: »

There are numerous threads saying "nerf this" or "buff this" or "rework this" but why even bother? Every time one class is reworked then the rest of the classes fall behind and need reworked to catch up. But they never achieve balance.
I don't understand why the classes need to be constantly reworked. Why is it so hard to just make them equal in their skills and potentials?

No. Class balance will NEVER be complete in ESO. It’s nothing more than a mirage. It simply won’t happen.
Just look at the DK. ZoS actually did an amazing job with the class. It was really nice work. It was good, it was fun... and then... nerf! Now it’s practically useless.
Take a look at WW. I know I can be kind of aggressive when I express myself, but I can say nice things too. WW was, without question, another great rework. Players liked it. 1bar, 2bar, everyone was playing and using WW. We saw them everywhere.
WW added nothing but positivity. No gatekeeping, no toxicity, nothing. It was, in fact, 100% welcomed by the community. Anyone could use it, try it, and enjoy it without being judged or pushed away. And for what? To be nerfed in U51. It’ll be nothing more than a useless class again.

ZoS can’t completely balance the classes, and they never will. They’ll change this, change that, and do whatever they can to keep ESO alive until The Elder Scrolls VI is released. Then... R.I.P.

And you know what? This isn’t entirely ZoS’s fault. It’s the players’ fault. PvP players, PvE players, because we’re never happy.
Oakensoul was amazing for the game... we made it useless. Because 1bar players can't parse higher than bad 2bar players.
DK was so damn good... we made it useless. Why? Because ZoS is, in fact, trying to start balancing the classes while reworking them at the same time. No one seems to understand that DK was just reworked, and that other classes will be reworked too.
WW was so damn good... oh boy... my dear WW... And you know what? We ask for the nerfs. Because apparently a damn 1bar build can’t be good.

So NO. We will NEVER have balance in this game, because we don’t really want.
We just want our numbers to go higher and higher, as long as it’s our beloved build. Everything else? Nerf it.

So... what exactly are “we” crying about here?

Sorry if I sound damn toxic or rude, but this is the damn truth. We only want balance when it comes to our own class. All the others? "Nerf them, please".

Oceanchanter · August 31

It will never happen because there always will be someone complaining for one reason or another.

Daoin · August 31

at this rate things have gone veteran players simply need to look at less experienced players now to kill them no skill required, balance means something else in the real world and eso where to say eso looks great right now i think we'll stop working on balance for a year for me would be a good thing, infact even a year of doing nothing at all even updates would be better than more eso balance changes. it is simple we say just to pull a number from a hat, for the last 6 years balance changes in every update did not work out to well and we should focus other things, some things were great but the word balance lost us 2/3 of the total population in eso, and so far even through the hype balance is not bringing them back, eso has done a great job securing its own furure but balance is a loser !

Vaqual · August 31

From my PoV there were a couple of reasons why combat balance seems to be locked in a permanent state of disrepair. These are just opinions though.

1. Intentional imbalance: They heavily tried to push meta changes and FotM gameplay as patch features to keep up engagement from a certain subset of players. This type of combat design keeps players with a competitive attitude and low roleplay commitment engaged. The allure of capitalizing on advantages paired with a general shake-up compensates (to a degree) for the lack of inherent commitment to the game as such (classical roleplaying as in a single player TES game). This is by default a sell-out strategy that forgoes real improvement for the sake of novelty every time the meta is manipulated like this. It worked better in the past, where the game generally promised rapid development, growth and long term stability. It seems the fatigue with this strategy is now exacting a heavy toll.

2a. Lack of developer vision: The project has been going for a long time and responsibilities are shared across a comparatively large studio. Compromises have to be made and a single developer likely doesn't have the time or motivation to explore combat to the extent a customer would. It is a very common problem that the highest level of insight is not available at the highest level of agency.

2b. Complacency and reactive design: This pretty much ties into the previous point, but it goes a bit deeper. ZOS has delivered pretty outstanding combat updates throughout the games development. They have however also often failed to provide the necessary adjustments to combat systems that were directly affected by some of the major changes. To keep the quality of a complex product at a very high, internationally competitive level, you don't just need people who do their jobs. You need obsessed nerds. You simply can't afford to slip up, miss out and postpone essential changes time and time again. The consequences of the errors will start to outpace the teams capacities. Also, the gaming market isn't growing like it used to. As harsh as it may sound, some of the staff may simply not be aware of how much their contributions can shape the experience in game and affect the overall health of the product. Gaming is a relatively low impact industry (compared to, e.g., the pharmaceutical industry), where the level of scrutiny doesn't really match the magnitude of the financial consequences too well. This is a difficult topic at the intersection of artistic freedom, customer satisfaction, and shareholder obligations, and we can probably fill a thread talking about this. The gist of it is, that they may not even be aware how far off the target their performance might be.

3. Feedback: To keep this short and brutally honest, I'll enounce the unspeakable. There was some truth to a couple of Rich Lamberts remarks regarding customer reactions. Without mincing words, some of the feedback is worthless. There is a plethora of uninformed, selfish, unfair, and needless feedback. It is completely fair for players not to reach ESO-enlightenment and to still have an opinion. But it can become problematic when certain opinions get amplified in an echo chamber and similarly uninformed executives start to demand the wrong solutions. A bit like pebbles triggering a landslide (#EarthenHeart). There have been changes where you can clearly see that the intentions were good, but where it is also evident that the results affected the game negatively. Especially the dance around accessibility, power creep and oversimplification has costed a lot of dev time. And judging by the current feedback, you'd be hard pressed to quantify the progress.

The universal conclusion to your main question and to the problems I outlined is actually surprisingly concise and simple. Yes, balance can achieved. They really just need the right guys, in the right positions, to make the right decisions. It sounds maybe a bit cynical, but creating less issues will make positive changes count for more, even if the development pace has slowed down.

Luneca · August 31

No. There cannot even be a proper "Balanced Warrior" any more.

kevkj · August 31

Valkanos wrote: »

Take a look at WW. I know I can be kind of aggressive when I express myself, but I can say nice things too. WW was, without question, another great rework. Players liked it. 1bar, 2bar, everyone was playing and using WW. We saw them everywhere.
WW added nothing but positivity. No gatekeeping, no toxicity, nothing. It was, in fact, 100% welcomed by the community. Anyone could use it, try it, and enjoy it without being judged or pushed away. And for what? To be nerfed in U51. It’ll be nothing more than a useless class again.

On PTS the big WW changes are to ability costs, which only affect PVP, difficult solo PVE gameplay (like a vet DLC dungeon not a world boss or whatever) and tanking DLC dungeons/trials (which was already undesirable anyway). We all know you don't engage in any of these activities so at least keep your whining focused and based on truths (or at least half thruths). Even the person who has been complaining about the PVP nerfs to WW on the forums could tell you that PVE damage dealing of WWs is effectively untouched. If you get kicked from group finder next patch on your wolf it's not because WW damage has magically been reduced, it's because of some other reason (or misinformation in the playerbase about WW damage that you yourself are spreading).

Soarora · August 31

The reworks I believe had great potential for this. Notice people complaining about DK AND WW. Especially if every class is given a weakness (ex. As a warden, I use crystal slab and play more at range in PvP with the acceptance that if a DK gets close to me, I’m dead. My weakness (melee) is DK strength, but DK can’t range me. Rock paper scissors).

But people don’t want nerfs by giving a class a weakness (ex. timidity against WWs, decrease their poison resistance, increase fighters guild bonus damage, etc). They want that class’ output and defense brought down.

Valkanos · August 31

kevkj wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Take a look at WW. I know I can be kind of aggressive when I express myself, but I can say nice things too. WW was, without question, another great rework. Players liked it. 1bar, 2bar, everyone was playing and using WW. We saw them everywhere.
WW added nothing but positivity. No gatekeeping, no toxicity, nothing. It was, in fact, 100% welcomed by the community. Anyone could use it, try it, and enjoy it without being judged or pushed away. And for what? To be nerfed in U51. It’ll be nothing more than a useless class again.

On PTS the big WW changes are to ability costs, which only affect PVP, difficult solo PVE gameplay (like a vet DLC dungeon not a world boss or whatever) and tanking DLC dungeons/trials (which was already undesirable anyway). We all know you don't engage in any of these activities so at least keep your whining focused and based on truths (or at least half thruths). Even the person who has been complaining about the PVP nerfs to WW on the forums could tell you that PVE damage dealing of WWs is effectively untouched. If you get kicked from group finder next patch on your wolf it's not because WW damage has magically been reduced, it's because of some other reason (or misinformation in the playerbase about WW damage that you yourself are spreading).

Bro... PvP players complain about everything. They cried about DK, they went "mimimi" over WW, and now it's Sorcerer. I have nothing against PvP players at all, but so much of this game's balance is a mess because of PvP.
Btw... where can I buy a crystal ball like yours?

Ingenon · August 31

Sure. Pick some standard measurement. Like parsing on the Target Iron Atronach, Trial. Before any update ships, have a skilled player (does not have to be a ZOS developer) parse with every class, every popular subclass, vampire, and werewolf. And do not ship the update unless all the parses are within the range of 90% to 100% of the highest parse. Sure, folks will still post about a meta build for PvE. But for most players, they can "Play As You Want", at least for PvE.

PvP in my opinion will require using Battle Spirit to tweak every class, every popular subclass, vampire, and werewolf. Trying to balance PvP and PvE without using Battle Spirit to tweak PvP build performance is impossible, in my opinion.

spartaxoxo · August 31

No. The system is far too complex for it to be perfectly balanced and even if it were it would get still. The goal is never perfect balance because there will always be genuine room for improvement. The goal is to get things feeling fun and to change things up often enough that everyone feels they gonna get their turn but not in a way that requires constant grinding of gear.

Valkanos · August 31

spartaxoxo wrote: »

No. The system is far too complex for it to be perfectly balanced and even if it were it would get still. The goal is never perfect balance because there will always be genuine room for improvement. The goal is to get things feeling fun and to change things up often enough that everyone feels they gonna get their turn but not in a way that requires constant grinding of gear.

"Feeling fun for everyone"?? Tell that to Oakensoul\1bar players...

spartaxoxo · August 31

Valkanos wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

No. The system is far too complex for it to be perfectly balanced and even if it were it would get still. The goal is never perfect balance because there will always be genuine room for improvement. The goal is to get things feeling fun and to change things up often enough that everyone feels they gonna get their turn but not in a way that requires constant grinding of gear.

"Feeling fun for everyone"?? Tell that to Oakensoul\1bar players...

I said the goal. I was talking about the ideal state not current balance.

Daoin · August 31

Daoin · August 31

i expent a 3 page essay from everyone by next week

peacenote · August 31

Good question by the OP!

First, I personally do not think that perfect or even near perfect balance is possible. Especially in a game where there are so many different play modes, so many different sets, and multiple roles that one can explore on a single character. Something can be OP in literally just one single scenario, and it would be impossible to chase that all down. If they tried, nothing would ever get released. However, that doesn't mean that part of the role of the devs shouldn't be to keep things somewhat in balance. They should be doing this. I think we just shouldn't expect some kind of shangri-la, such each class has one gap closer, one shield, one spammable, one dot, etc that are equally balanced and the only way to outperform someone else is by skill. That is an unrealistic expectation. Plus, part of player skill is knowing how to combine class, race, gear, CP, and other skill lines to have the edge. There's no skill in that if everything is exactly the same.

Second, I don't think that perfect balance is even desirable. Everyone says that this is what they want, but the truth is that the game would get very boring, very quickly, if it ceased to be a living, breathing, evolving environment with changing metas. I would not enjoy classes that were so evenly matched as to basically be indistinguishable. In fact, I always have felt, historically, that gameplay has become less fun each time the devs tried to "standardize" abilities and introduced hybridization (but that could be just me).

I believe that what most people would actually be happy with is for egregious balance issues to be addressed quickly, and for the pace of non-game-breaking imbalances to be addressed more slowly and cautiously, such that players can at least enjoy new builds they created or discovered for a bit before they are nerfed, and, when they are nerfed, that they aren't nerfed into oblivion but rather still viable and simply not necessarily BIS.

For example, if Templars are owning everyone in Cyro, it might feel reasonable to expect that by this time next year, that may shift to DKs, or NBs... but not in next patch immediately after they became viable, and with such a sledgehammer that no respectable PvP'er steps foot into Cyrodiil ever again.
As another example, Arcanists were released in 2023 and it is only recently, in 2026, that players feel they can dip their toes into other DPS setups without gimping their teams significantly. That was a LONG time for Arcanists to be on top, and it got boring for people.

ZOS is in a particular pickle right now, as they are in the middle of a class refresh, so that there are some imbalances that many might describe as egregious. In this particular case, I personally wish that they would not spend resources on re-balancing, but instead just focus on finishing the class refreshes, and THEN balance. Yes, DKs and WW's are on top right now, but it hasn't been nearly as long as the run of Arcanists owning the top level DPS spot in PvE, so I think it's Ok for a little while longer yet. I say, let them enjoy it, and get the next new class out ASAP instead. But, that's just me, with my PvP WW that I just finished. :P

Anyway, my point is that I don't think "perfect" class balance is possible or even truly desirable, but that does not mean there isn't a point to balancing. The whole point of MMOs is to keep playing them -- they don't "end" -- so it's fine if sometimes one class has an edge over another in a certain situation. That's what keeps the game fresh. But it needs to evolve and change and not be so ridiculous such that the other classes have no point to existing when another is on top.

(PS. I do think it is OK and possibly desirable for a class to not be viable in all scenarios all the time. For example, if a class is THE BIS PvE healer in dungeons in trials, it's fine, in my book, if maybe it's mid-tier for PvP, until the meta changes again. I think people sometimes forget when something is on top that it's not necessarily on top for everything. Yes, werewolves are everywhere in PvP right now, but I don't see them as healers so they aren't dominating completely. That's a different kind of diversity but something that gets overlooked when people get all worked up about certain classes being OP.)

Valkanos · August 31

And here we go again. Another PvP topic asking the PvP team to balance the unbalanced skills in PvP, which will probably result even more in unbalancing the already-unbalanced PvE Damage. All of this just to rebalance the unbalanced balance that both teams are trying to balance across PvE\PvP, while buff the unbalancing and nerf the balance that was never balanced in the first place.

So... how can you even ask; "Is class balance even possible?" It’s 100% impossible. xD

AcadianPaladin · August 31

Is class balance possible? Based on the game's history of futile and often heavy handed and circular efforts over the last 10+ and insistence on not balancing PvP/PvE separately, I'd say no. I'd rather have more stability than having my build based on a foundation of evershifting sand - particularly since the frequent changes don't result in the mythical goal of 'balance'.

Alchimiste1 · August 31

They don't need to be balanced in terms of spreadsheet values. A dot class shouldn't have the same values as a non-dot class. Some classes should have more sustain. Other more innate burst. They should however have tradeoffs. You should not be able to have it all like live DK. That just creates a sloppy gaming experience in my opinion.

It is a lot harder to balance now because subclassing was introduced like many of us told zos it would be when they announced the idea.

Grasshoppermouse · August 31

I think it partially depends on what you mean by balance. You won't ever get it where everything is completely equal, but I feel like a lot could be done to make it more balanced.

First, I want to establish what I mean by balance, and the kind of balance I think is desirable. I want it balanced in the sense that there are no classes that are inherently better than others, where every ability is useful enough to justify players putting points into it and where any gear that's high effort to acquire should always be a good set to use for at least some builds. I do think every class should have its strengths and weaknesses and shouldn't be equally good at all things, because you don't want class choice to be meaningless, but there shouldn't be weak and strong classes, just classes that are better for different playstyles.

This might not be possible to accomplish perfectly, but I feel like we could get a lot closer that we are right now. First, I think it would be helpful to always balance PvP and PvE separately, because the stats that are important for each are completely different. Crit resistance and stealth detection are valuable stats in PvP, for example, but they don't even do anything in PvE. You're not going to be able to get balance if you're balancing them as a single unit, because if the combat designers use these two stats as a tradeoff for something else, then that trade off will be meaningless for PvE players.

I also think it would help if they went less extreme in their nerfs. When something is deemed OP, the developers like to nuke it into uselessness. This is frustrating to players who spent a lot of time grinding for the gear only for it to go from the best gear in the game to being completely unusable. I think it's important when doing nerfs to consider whether they're ruining a skill line/class/gear or just bringing it into line with other things in the game with a similar level of time or skill point investment.

Lastly, and I think this is the most important thing to consider when working on balance, is to consider whether the strengths and weaknesses are creating the fantasy that the skill line/class/gear are meant to represent. I like poison as a weakness for werewolves, because the two main ways to kill a werewolf are silver and wolfsbane (poison). I don't like vampires getting weaker the more they feed, because that's opposite of what a vampire is, and I'd rather have them incredibly weak to the point of being debilitating when they haven't fed, and very strong when they have. Since ultimately this is a role-playing game, making sure werewolves feel like werewolves, vampires feel like vampires, wardens feel like druids and nightblades feel like sneaky thieves and assassins is more important, in my opinion, than having them be perfectly equal, though it should still feel close enough that it doesn't feel like there's no chance of competing.

FelisCatus · 12:58AM

Valkanos wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are numerous threads saying "nerf this" or "buff this" or "rework this" but why even bother? Every time one class is reworked then the rest of the classes fall behind and need reworked to catch up. But they never achieve balance.
I don't understand why the classes need to be constantly reworked. Why is it so hard to just make them equal in their skills and potentials?

No. Class balance will NEVER be complete in ESO. It’s nothing more than a mirage. It simply won’t happen.
Just look at the DK. ZoS actually did an amazing job with the class. It was really nice work. It was good, it was fun... and then... nerf! Now it’s practically useless.
Take a look at WW. I know I can be kind of aggressive when I express myself, but I can say nice things too. WW was, without question, another great rework. Players liked it. 1bar, 2bar, everyone was playing and using WW. We saw them everywhere.
WW added nothing but positivity. No gatekeeping, no toxicity, nothing. It was, in fact, 100% welcomed by the community. Anyone could use it, try it, and enjoy it without being judged or pushed away. And for what? To be nerfed in U51. It’ll be nothing more than a useless class again.

ZoS can’t completely balance the classes, and they never will. They’ll change this, change that, and do whatever they can to keep ESO alive until The Elder Scrolls VI is released. Then... R.I.P.

And you know what? This isn’t entirely ZoS’s fault. It’s the players’ fault. PvP players, PvE players, because we’re never happy.
Oakensoul was amazing for the game... we made it useless. Because 1bar players can't parse higher than bad 2bar players.
DK was so damn good... we made it useless. Why? Because ZoS is, in fact, trying to start balancing the classes while reworking them at the same time. No one seems to understand that DK was just reworked, and that other classes will be reworked too.
WW was so damn good... oh boy... my dear WW... And you know what? We ask for the nerfs. Because apparently a damn 1bar build can’t be good.

So NO. We will NEVER have balance in this game, because we don’t really want.
We just want our numbers to go higher and higher, as long as it’s our beloved build. Everything else? Nerf it.

So... what exactly are “we” crying about here?

Sorry if I sound damn toxic or rude, but this is the damn truth. We only want balance when it comes to our own class. All the others? "Nerf them, please".

They should just take a page out of Warframe's book and play into the player power creep fantasy. Most people play this game like it's solo anyway and every Elder Scrolls game allows and expects player power creep.

rothan117 · 2:03AM

I have played quite a few MMORPGs in the last 20 years, not a single one was ever able to achieve balanced classes. It is not ESO or ZOS at fault. It is just the nature of the beast, all they can do is try to mitigate the worst outliers.