I mean come-on team.

There are 2 reworked 'classes' (DK and werewolf) one of which (the DK) has 3, 4, 5 burst tools and their sustain is still looking like:



While the one and only 'sustained damage'/ only other reworked 'class' in the game looks like this in any actual PvP fight building sustain via a combination of reduction gear and tri-pots. It doesn't matter if I have 'Rampage' if I can't make it there or I tank my damage just to survive long enough to reach it:








example build-


I simply don't understand who could draw a conclusion that werewolf is 'healthy' after these 200-300% sustain nerfs unless they didn't want to see werewolf played commonly in PvP.

This let alone that pure-sorc PvE DPS for werewolf is no longer competitive after the adjustment to static reverb to only affect 'sorc abilities'.

I’m still very disappointed that Werewolf in PVE is just going to only be Nightblade Werewolf till U52. Again, why couldn’t Static Reverberation just be made to proc only on monsters? That’d solve the PVP whining in an instant. But nope, gotta gut the only other DPS werewolf in PVE because PVPers whine the loudest.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I’m still very disappointed that Werewolf in PVE is just going to only be Nightblade Werewolf till U52. Again, why couldn’t Static Reverberation just be made to proc only on monsters? That’d solve the PVP whining in an instant. But nope, gotta gut the only other DPS werewolf in PVE because PVPers whine the loudest.

WW never having access to Font of Power and now losing Static Reverb hurts A LOT for PVE. RIP Calc Defense furballs.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I’m still very disappointed that Werewolf in PVE is just going to only be Nightblade Werewolf till U52. Again, why couldn’t Static Reverberation just be made to proc only on monsters? That’d solve the PVP whining in an instant. But nope, gotta gut the only other DPS werewolf in PVE because PVPers whine the loudest.

What are the strengths of the Nightblade Werewolf?

Very happy to finally see the CC break bug acknowledged. This has literally been an issue for 7 years, at least. This doesn't just occur with those abilities though, I am pretty certain it can happen with just about any stun. Some others I have seen it with are streak, charm, mass hysteria, both morphs of leap, etc.

If the team needs more examples or any additional info/testing, feel free to reach out to me via forum DM. I can dig through my own footage, but I could probably also source many more examples from the wider pvp community. This is a bug i know many veterans would really love to see resolved.

HMG_Spaun wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Templar and WW doomed to go live in this current state. Very sadge.

Because saying, “These guys that play the game might be right about these changes making no sense,” might be a hard pill to swallow.

BUT THE SPREADSHEET!!!

madmufffin wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I’m still very disappointed that Werewolf in PVE is just going to only be Nightblade Werewolf till U52. Again, why couldn’t Static Reverberation just be made to proc only on monsters? That’d solve the PVP whining in an instant. But nope, gotta gut the only other DPS werewolf in PVE because PVPers whine the loudest.

WW never having access to Font of Power and now losing Static Reverb hurts A LOT for PVE. RIP Calc Defense furballs.

Honestly having Font of Power for WW might pick up the damage for the Static Reverb loss, but I'm honestly doubting that'll be taken into consideration with how obvious the lack of care for WW in PVE is right now. It's disappointing.

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I mean come-on team.

There are 2 reworked 'classes' (DK and werewolf) one of which (the DK) has 3, 4, 5 burst tools and their sustain is still looking like:



While the one and only 'sustained damage'/ only other reworked 'class' in the game looks like this in any actual PvP fight building sustain via a combination of reduction gear and tri-pots. It doesn't matter if I have 'Rampage' if I can't make it there or I tank my damage just to survive long enough to reach it:








I simply don't understand who could draw a conclusion that werewolf is 'healthy' after these 200-300% sustain nerfs unless they didn't want to see werewolf played commonly in PvP.

This let alone that pure-sorc PvE DPS for werewolf is no longer competitive after the adjustment to static reverb to only affect 'sorc abilities'.

DK is the only class that’s been reworked and WW is only a skill line under World like mages guild. Stop spreading misinformation and why ZoS has ignored all your spam / posts with fake data. They fixed a broken skill line and a broken DK class. Now it’s balanced and you need to move or take a breath outside of eso.

Accuses others of spreading misinformation when doing it themselves. Accuses someone of "fake" data while providing absolutely 0 of their own and hiding behind passive-aggressive insults when pressed for it. We get it, you don't like getting killed by WWs in PvP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Why do the devs absolutely refuse to tell us what their reasoning for 180'ing on the reworked WW vision is? What happened to Nick's claims of wanting more transparency and communication? It's starting to feel like we're slipping back into the familiar song and dance of "we know communication has been bad and we want to fix it" but then it just stays how it was. Communication was doing SO GOOD but now things are starting to go unacknowledged again. Like the devs claimed they were "happy" with WW's PvE performance last patch. What changed that they needed to nerf it for PvE? Was it because people were complaining about it in PvP? Why not just nerf it only for PvP then?

Them "being happy" doesn't tell us anything. They were "happy" with it before, then they changed it. Now they're "happy" with it again. What about next patch when some other WW build comes out on top for PvP? Is it going to get nerfed again until the devs are "happy" with it?

Why can they not actually tell us the reasoning? Why go back on the WHOLE reason WW Skills were made so cheap to begin with? Why throw out a playstyle that was specifically called out in the patch notes as being a big reason for the change? Why could other things NOT have been tested first?

I'm really trying not to vent my frustrations here but you (as in the devs, not you specifically) have to realize that we were told before WW was basically good for PvE. Everything was fine. But suddenly the PvP crowd starts wielding their pitchforks and torches and something that was fine for PvE suddenly isn't because it's overperforming in PvP, where myself and others warned was going to happen. It doesn't inspire any confidence that something that was fine just a few months ago somehow suddenly isn't, gets changed, and the devs are "happy" with it again. It really feels like the devs being "happy" with WW in PvE is less how it actually performs there and more how things are going in PvP.

To be clear, I'm not saying the changes to CoE or Static Reverb shouldn't have happened, they needed to, and in fact (to say it again) numerous people brought up over and over that those things needed some kind of adjustment because of their interactions with WW. I think most people find those changes reasonable, at least to some degree. What myself and others are bothered by is the fact that WW got nerfed BECAUSE of those interactions (like we warned would happen) but then those reactionary nerfs weren't walked back to any degree after the sources of the interactions were adjusted. The nerfs could have been reduced to maybe half their values to test and see how healing and sustain felt, but no, again we get the heavy-handed nerfs.

Ugh.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom running out of time to see any feedback on the Battle Spirit changes being considered. The first patch notes mentioned it would be, what's the likelihood for any update before launch?

Arunei wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I mean come-on team.

There are 2 reworked 'classes' (DK and werewolf) one of which (the DK) has 3, 4, 5 burst tools and their sustain is still looking like:



While the one and only 'sustained damage'/ only other reworked 'class' in the game looks like this in any actual PvP fight building sustain via a combination of reduction gear and tri-pots. It doesn't matter if I have 'Rampage' if I can't make it there or I tank my damage just to survive long enough to reach it:








I simply don't understand who could draw a conclusion that werewolf is 'healthy' after these 200-300% sustain nerfs unless they didn't want to see werewolf played commonly in PvP.

This let alone that pure-sorc PvE DPS for werewolf is no longer competitive after the adjustment to static reverb to only affect 'sorc abilities'.

DK is the only class that’s been reworked and WW is only a skill line under World like mages guild. Stop spreading misinformation and why ZoS has ignored all your spam / posts with fake data. They fixed a broken skill line and a broken DK class. Now it’s balanced and you need to move or take a breath outside of eso.

Accuses others of spreading misinformation when doing it themselves. Accuses someone of "fake" data while providing absolutely 0 of their own and hiding behind passive-aggressive insults when pressed for it. We get it, you don't like getting killed by WWs in PvP.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Why do the devs absolutely refuse to tell us what their reasoning for 180'ing on the reworked WW vision is? What happened to Nick's claims of wanting more transparency and communication? It's starting to feel like we're slipping back into the familiar song and dance of "we know communication has been bad and we want to fix it" but then it just stays how it was. Communication was doing SO GOOD but now things are starting to go unacknowledged again. Like the devs claimed they were "happy" with WW's PvE performance last patch. What changed that they needed to nerf it for PvE? Was it because people were complaining about it in PvP? Why not just nerf it only for PvP then?

Them "being happy" doesn't tell us anything. They were "happy" with it before, then they changed it. Now they're "happy" with it again. What about next patch when some other WW build comes out on top for PvP? Is it going to get nerfed again until the devs are "happy" with it?

Why can they not actually tell us the reasoning? Why go back on the WHOLE reason WW Skills were made so cheap to begin with? Why throw out a playstyle that was specifically called out in the patch notes as being a big reason for the change? Why could other things NOT have been tested first?

I'm really trying not to vent my frustrations here but you (as in the devs, not you specifically) have to realize that we were told before WW was basically good for PvE. Everything was fine. But suddenly the PvP crowd starts wielding their pitchforks and torches and something that was fine for PvE suddenly isn't because it's overperforming in PvP, where myself and others warned was going to happen. It doesn't inspire any confidence that something that was fine just a few months ago somehow suddenly isn't, gets changed, and the devs are "happy" with it again. It really feels like the devs being "happy" with WW in PvE is less how it actually performs there and more how things are going in PvP.

To be clear, I'm not saying the changes to CoE or Static Reverb shouldn't have happened, they needed to, and in fact (to say it again) numerous people brought up over and over that those things needed some kind of adjustment because of their interactions with WW. I think most people find those changes reasonable, at least to some degree. What myself and others are bothered by is the fact that WW got nerfed BECAUSE of those interactions (like we warned would happen) but then those reactionary nerfs weren't walked back to any degree after the sources of the interactions were adjusted. The nerfs could have been reduced to maybe half their values to test and see how healing and sustain felt, but no, again we get the heavy-handed nerfs.

Ugh.

I have to agree, with ZOS being so willing to U-turn on a design direction, since they explicitly stated they wanted werewolves to focus on sustain via ultimate sustain (a feature where pvp players were never given a tool to pressure with), without reconsidering the impact that going back on that change makes (forcing dual sustain pressure, skills lacking previous functions), I'm yapping, but what are the odds that they do the next class refresh, focus on a specific function, build the class around that function, then nerf it without addressing how that impacts the rest of the class?

Like, what if pvp players were given this instead, make trap beast drain ultimate from transformed werewolf players, like 5 ultimate per hit and tick from the dot, that way pvp players have an actual tool to pressure werewolves, werewolves need to play more careful and maybe even use gear sets to self purge, and could create a more dynamic and balanced sandbox?

Similarly to their sorc changes, the class doesn't have a lot of interesting skills, as a sorc main I don't use many class skills on my stam sorc or shock one. In ye olden days, the disintegrate passive triggered off any shock damage, all shock damage, including the shock staff, counted as being thematic for the class, and come the update to making the passive Implosion, sorc class identity was both shock and physical damage. If you, as a stam sorc, had a choice between something like Snipe and Lethal Arrow, you wanted to use the physical one because it synergized with the class.

Class identity was how your class was able to offer unique angles, like this, but the change to Static Reverb makes class identity exclusively "shove class skills on your bars", which is a bad take in my opinion for classes like Templar, since it isn't that interesting, "play in this small box, don't consider anything outside it," but it's even worse than that. Can those on PTS let me know if sorcerer pets still hurt your chances to trigger Static Reverb? Because if that's the case, even using sorc skills isn't a good idea for sorcerers, because until the sorcerer rework, many abilities aren't worth using or are detrimental.

Just some thoughts I was considering as well, and without the communication, just the simple, and kind of off putting "Thank You," it feels like a slide back into the same silent driven ZOS that causes the forums to just devolve into frustration.

Since you specifically asked for feedback about the weekly summaries, I have one suggestion.

The Werewolf entry tells us that the team has read the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data and is "comfortable with where the Werewolf is at," but it doesn't give us much visibility into why the team reached that conclusion.

For feedback topics where there is a substantial amount of testing and disagreement, I think these summaries would be much more useful if they included one or two sentences about the reasoning behind the decision.

For example:

• Is the team seeing sustain results internally that differ from the player testing being posted?
• Are the current costs primarily being evaluated around PvP, PvE, or both?
• What does the team intend to monitor once U51 reaches live -- Werewolf usage, resource depletion, DPS, PvP performance, class distribution, or something else?

I'm not asking for the combat team to write an essay or respond individually to every forum argument. But there's a large difference between "we've read the feedback and are comfortable with it" and giving players a small amount of information about why.

That kind of context would make these summaries much more valuable, especially when the conclusion is that a heavily discussed PTS change will go live without further adjustment.

Thank you for doing the summaries and for asking us how they can be improved.

Militan1404 wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I mean come-on team.

There are 2 reworked 'classes' (DK and werewolf) one of which (the DK) has 3, 4, 5 burst tools and their sustain is still looking like:



While the one and only 'sustained damage'/ only other reworked 'class' in the game looks like this in any actual PvP fight building sustain via a combination of reduction gear and tri-pots. It doesn't matter if I have 'Rampage' if I can't make it there or I tank my damage just to survive long enough to reach it:








I simply don't understand who could draw a conclusion that werewolf is 'healthy' after these 200-300% sustain nerfs unless they didn't want to see werewolf played commonly in PvP.

This let alone that pure-sorc PvE DPS for werewolf is no longer competitive after the adjustment to static reverb to only affect 'sorc abilities'.

DK is the only class that’s been reworked and WW is only a skill line under World like mages guild. Stop spreading misinformation and why ZoS has ignored all your spam / posts with fake data. They fixed a broken skill line and a broken DK class. Now it’s balanced and you need to move or take a breath outside of eso.

You really think DK got "nerfed" ? It will still be the most OP class in game, and DK will still face roll you in PvP.

They still have best burst in game, best sustain, best healing etc. We just dont have werewolf to compete against them.anymore.
And you sir, will still die alot in PvP just like before

What a load of nonsense. Templar on the live currently can kill DK, Sorc very EASILY destroys DKS, necro kills them too thanks to the instant scribe cc, onslaught, pet dumb damage and masteries, Nightblade can kill DKs with the right build and they don’t even need to use onslaught, warden can kill DKs too with aeries cry and the right setup, it’s only arcanist really that has it the hardest but can stalemate. Stop spewing nonsense.

Hes getting farmed by DKs on PS5-eu while on his WW and instead learn to play or adapt or anything he just started a witch hunt..

Most likely brother.

Militan1404 wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I mean come-on team.

There are 2 reworked 'classes' (DK and werewolf) one of which (the DK) has 3, 4, 5 burst tools and their sustain is still looking like:



While the one and only 'sustained damage'/ only other reworked 'class' in the game looks like this in any actual PvP fight building sustain via a combination of reduction gear and tri-pots. It doesn't matter if I have 'Rampage' if I can't make it there or I tank my damage just to survive long enough to reach it:








I simply don't understand who could draw a conclusion that werewolf is 'healthy' after these 200-300% sustain nerfs unless they didn't want to see werewolf played commonly in PvP.

This let alone that pure-sorc PvE DPS for werewolf is no longer competitive after the adjustment to static reverb to only affect 'sorc abilities'.

DK is the only class that’s been reworked and WW is only a skill line under World like mages guild. Stop spreading misinformation and why ZoS has ignored all your spam / posts with fake data. They fixed a broken skill line and a broken DK class. Now it’s balanced and you need to move or take a breath outside of eso.

You really think DK got "nerfed" ? It will still be the most OP class in game, and DK will still face roll you in PvP.

They still have best burst in game, best sustain, best healing etc. We just dont have werewolf to compete against them.anymore.
And you sir, will still die alot in PvP just like before

What a load of nonsense. Templar on the live currently can kill DK, Sorc very EASILY destroys DKS, necro kills them too thanks to the instant scribe cc, onslaught, pet dumb damage and masteries, Nightblade can kill DKs with the right build and they don’t even need to use onslaught, warden can kill DKs too with aeries cry and the right setup, it’s only arcanist really that has it the hardest but can stalemate. Stop spewing nonsense.

Hes getting farmed by DKs on PS5-eu while on his WW and instead learn to play or adapt or anything he just started a witch hunt..

Makes sense the DK players would be okay with not having any competition. Y'all are all bad faith proprietors tbh.

Regardless of how Wuufyy is speaking on WW, it doesn't change the fact they are getting absolutely gutted as a playstyle.

And the fact people think they shouldn't be a playstyle, is kinda the problem with this shithole of a game where people think there should only be three playstyles.

LOL love the devs just being like 'yeah we lied our asses off about magicka werewolf, we're fine with this' and we're just supposed to pretend that they never said that haha.
Cool game, fun times. Glad you guys (the devs) are happy with where werewolf is, but the players of the subclass certainly aren't. I suppose that doesn't matter though.