Chrlynsch wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):



They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

It is not possible to kill people remotely consistently as a pressure playstyle if everyone is given CoF and CoE but the pressure playstyle itself.

ZOS also has a nasty habit of dumpstering werewolf, ignoring feedback, and moving on to literally anything else (and no, I’m not just talking about this patch that happened 3 months after the rework).

I, in fact, expect even more nerfs next PTS without any compensation. I imagine those nerfs will primarily center around HPS based on health-based healing as not much has changed in that department if you run in a group (a ‘pack’ if you will) with a healer providing damage/sustain. They may even focus on the still ‘cheap’ 1865 stam Rip and Tear; these changes without significant compensation would seal the deal in PvP and make werewolf quite literally worse than it ever has been there.

At least werewolf had more damage and max stamina prior to build around the lack of sustain. Sure, it wasn’t ‘infinite sustain’ or ‘high health’ (that was an option but you were simply a health tank) but the killing potential was there prior, especially before the DK rework- at least in combination with procs of course.

Not gonna lie, sometimes you straight have to farm potatoes, I've done it when sorc was really in the toilet and sometimes those were all I could kill.


Truth is that you'll all always be able to kill someone even if it's just that you're basically a tank with the ability to get the last hit in or dot then up and fall back to your group.

True it's not reliable and true sometimes you're living off scraps but sometimes you get those experiences where you come out on top as long as you can adjust to on top being what your chosen play style is capable of or rather limited to.

If it was me I'd be out there trying sets and min maxing till I got all the juice I could and running with a group if I absolutely had to. You're certainly not the only one so maybe some like minded individuals could get together and have fun.

I have done this for ages, I’m tired Bushido.

This was OUR rework. And the n—- was dropped in 3 months time. And the following one will be in another 3 months after.

They (ZOS) were so clearly hesitant on nerfing both CoF (20% lol) and CoE (25% lol) which tells me their vision involves keeping ‘infinite sustain’ for all but werewolf. Every class will become stronger with its rework and I imagine should they adjust masteries like promised before all classes are reworked, they will add exceptions for werewolf on anything remotely strong.

It’s downhill from here.

I’m telling you, with what’s on the horizon and a couple more nerfs down the line- it can no longer be done even by the best of players. If I continue next patch, I will run Shapeshifter’s, Imperial, and even 5 med if I have to. At this point, I may as well run from any DK and kite any sorc until I have Rampage if they’re remotely competent because they’ll surely have all the pressure on me and I’ll have even less pressure (+ steam) against them.

Yeah I can understand your position and it's true wolf has been in a bad state much longer than it has been good.

If the game ever stops being fun then it might be time for a break or switch to something more playable. I'm on somewhat of a break till the new patch hits.

There was a person I used to see all the time playing wolf but I think even after years they got to a point where it wasn't fun though I think they came back this patch with a new name

Anyways I get it. Not sure what I would do if they nerfed steak into oblivion. I'd probably still play sorc but not sure for for long.

Hopefully wolf won't actually be left to rot but it's hard to say what they are going to do next given all their internal changes and already rocky reputation.

I know I took a break for a few years when werewolf went neglected as well as with work & family. It was great to comeback to a reworked wolf as it was fresh to play, happy to see it get a place in some endgame comps too. I think with a couple tweaks and access to some burst it could become really engaging to play with in all aspects of the game.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):



They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

It is not possible to kill people remotely consistently as a pressure playstyle if everyone is given CoF and CoE but the pressure playstyle itself.

ZOS also has a nasty habit of dumpstering werewolf, ignoring feedback, and moving on to literally anything else (and no, I’m not just talking about this patch that happened 3 months after the rework).

I, in fact, expect even more nerfs next PTS without any compensation. I imagine those nerfs will primarily center around HPS based on health-based healing as not much has changed in that department if you run in a group (a ‘pack’ if you will) with a healer providing damage/sustain. They may even focus on the still ‘cheap’ 1865 stam Rip and Tear; these changes without significant compensation would seal the deal in PvP and make werewolf quite literally worse than it ever has been there.

At least werewolf had more damage and max stamina prior to build around the lack of sustain. Sure, it wasn’t ‘infinite sustain’ or ‘high health’ (that was an option but you were simply a health tank) but the killing potential was there prior, especially before the DK rework- at least in combination with procs of course.

Not gonna lie, sometimes you straight have to farm potatoes, I've done it when sorc was really in the toilet and sometimes those were all I could kill.


Truth is that you'll all always be able to kill someone even if it's just that you're basically a tank with the ability to get the last hit in or dot then up and fall back to your group.

True it's not reliable and true sometimes you're living off scraps but sometimes you get those experiences where you come out on top as long as you can adjust to on top being what your chosen play style is capable of or rather limited to.

If it was me I'd be out there trying sets and min maxing till I got all the juice I could and running with a group if I absolutely had to. You're certainly not the only one so maybe some like minded individuals could get together and have fun.

I have done this for ages, I’m tired Bushido.

This was OUR rework. And the n—- was dropped in 3 months time. And the following one will be in another 3 months after.

They (ZOS) were so clearly hesitant on nerfing both CoF (20% lol) and CoE (25% lol) which tells me their vision involves keeping ‘infinite sustain’ for all but werewolf. Every class will become stronger with its rework and I imagine should they adjust masteries like promised before all classes are reworked, they will add exceptions for werewolf on anything remotely strong.

It’s downhill from here.

I’m telling you, with what’s on the horizon and a couple more nerfs down the line- it can no longer be done even by the best of players. If I continue next patch, I will run Shapeshifter’s, Imperial, and even 5 med if I have to. At this point, I may as well run from any DK and kite any sorc until I have Rampage if they’re remotely competent because they’ll surely have all the pressure on me and I’ll have even less pressure (+ steam) against them.

Yeah I can understand your position and it's true wolf has been in a bad state much longer than it has been good.

If the game ever stops being fun then it might be time for a break or switch to something more playable. I'm on somewhat of a break till the new patch hits.

There was a person I used to see all the time playing wolf but I think even after years they got to a point where it wasn't fun though I think they came back this patch with a new name

Anyways I get it. Not sure what I would do if they nerfed steak into oblivion. I'd probably still play sorc but not sure for for long.

Hopefully wolf won't actually be left to rot but it's hard to say what they are going to do next given all their internal changes and already rocky reputation.

I know I took a break for a few years when werewolf went neglected as well as with work & family. It was great to comeback to a reworked wolf as it was fresh to play, happy to see it get a place in some endgame comps too. I think with a couple tweaks and access to some burst it could become really engaging to play with in all aspects of the game.

I played my ww in a vet trial yesterday and did fine even if I was the only one lol. I do enjoy the easy dps and will in the next patch if if easy enough to adjust.

So at least pve is there but yeah pve ughhh.

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.

There is no gap to bridge on werewolf. Werewolf is a top 3 PvP spec, and if you don't agree with that you are either clueless or entirely dishonest.

You make note of 2 specific vampire skills because these are the only 2 worth anything. Undeath is a passive that is used solely to buff other playstyles (Sorc and DK, as you've cited). The other is a spammable that is used to fill in holes in a class that doesn't have access to any.

All Werewolf skills are useable. All Werewolf passives are strong. Werewolf itself is in a really good spot in PvP, and has a place in PvE (even in trial groups) because it functions effectively as DPS and offers group utility.

Its laughable to me that you insist that Werewolf needs more buffs than Vampire does when the Vampire kit may as well be reduced to one passive skill and one active skill (as those are the only two that get any sort of practical use) and is also tied to a significant nerf to sustain and increase to fire damage taken at all times.

Radiate77 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

Vamp concept as a whole needs a ton of love. A massive rework, mythic, sets, etc. are very much needed.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

…Anyways I'll save that for a vamp thread because that's a book of trash.

Look no further!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691768/rant-time-what-about-vampires/

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.

There is no gap to bridge on werewolf. Werewolf is a top 3 PvP spec, and if you don't agree with that you are either clueless or entirely dishonest.

You make note of 2 specific vampire skills because these are the only 2 worth anything. Undeath is a passive that is used solely to buff other playstyles (Sorc and DK, as you've cited). The other is a spammable that is used to fill in holes in a class that doesn't have access to any.

All Werewolf skills are useable. All Werewolf passives are strong. Werewolf itself is in a really good spot in PvP, and has a place in PvE (even in trial groups) because it functions effectively as DPS and offers group utility.

Its laughable to me that you insist that Werewolf needs more buffs than Vampire does when the Vampire kit may as well be reduced to one passive skill and one active skill (as those are the only two that get any sort of practical use) and is also tied to a significant nerf to sustain and increase to fire damage taken at all times.

I don’t know if you heard this or not-

Werewolf just had its sustain nuked and its whole thing is kinda ‘no-burst, sustained pressure’. Doubling or tripling costs across the board doesn’t exactly help it along. Especially reducing its burst heal by yet another 10% (so before these changes you needed 30k to achieve the same heal as 40k+ gets you now, for reference).

Let’s also not forget that anyone who can do basic math or has been on PTS can see the sustain nerfs to DK and sorc (the meta competition) are basically nothing and this is what werewolf has to go against.

Keep in mind also, that werewolf was REWORKED but now is in the same place sustain-wise as everyone else aside from DK and sorc whereas every other class is awaiting its rework to MATCH that level.

Passives, dots, tooltips were all NERFED for the rework, if you didn’t know. Wanna see it? Go to my ‘discussions’ or just look at their own admittance here-



As I said, no matter happens to vampire, you CAN STILL be a sorc, DK, or later a Warden at will. Additionally and more on topic, Shapeshifter’s chain should be reworked now as that is what they are forcing werewolf into NOW and they can later add flavor for Vampire or a Vampire-Themed mythic should they ever rework vampire.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.

There is no gap to bridge on werewolf. Werewolf is a top 3 PvP spec, and if you don't agree with that you are either clueless or entirely dishonest.

You make note of 2 specific vampire skills because these are the only 2 worth anything. Undeath is a passive that is used solely to buff other playstyles (Sorc and DK, as you've cited). The other is a spammable that is used to fill in holes in a class that doesn't have access to any.

All Werewolf skills are useable. All Werewolf passives are strong. Werewolf itself is in a really good spot in PvP, and has a place in PvE (even in trial groups) because it functions effectively as DPS and offers group utility.

Its laughable to me that you insist that Werewolf needs more buffs than Vampire does when the Vampire kit may as well be reduced to one passive skill and one active skill (as those are the only two that get any sort of practical use) and is also tied to a significant nerf to sustain and increase to fire damage taken at all times.

I don’t know if you heard this or not-

Werewolf just had its sustain nuked and its whole thing is kinda ‘no-burst, sustained pressure’. Doubling or tripling costs across the board doesn’t exactly help it along. Especially reducing its burst heal by yet another 10% (so before these changes you needed 30k to achieve the same heal as 40k+ gets you now, for reference).

Let’s also not forget that anyone who can do basic math or has been on PTS can see the sustain nerfs to DK and sorc (the meta competition) are basically nothing and this is what werewolf has to go against.

Keep in mind also, that werewolf was REWORKED but now is in the same place sustain-wise as everyone else aside from DK and sorc whereas every other class is awaiting its rework to MATCH that level.

Passives, dots, tooltips were all NERFED for the rework, if you didn’t know. Wanna see it? Go to my ‘discussions’ or just look at their own admittance here-



As I said, no matter happens to vampire, you CAN STILL be a sorc, DK, or later a Warden at will. Additionally and more on topic, Shapeshifter’s chain should be reworked now as that is what they are forcing werewolf into NOW and they can later add flavor for Vampire or a Vampire-Themed mythic should they ever rework vampire.

I'm well aware of the sustain nerf, but even after that Werewolf is still a top 3 PvP spec. Saying otherwise, and implying that Werewolf needs more work than the classes drowning at the bottom of the pool, is entirely disingenuous.

Yes, Wolves will need to consider sustain more than they do on live. Shapeshifter's chain might help with this, and I expect many wolves to run this in the next patch cycle over the esoteric mythic that is currently being abused by many wolves (this needed reigning in). Wolves are also getting a new sustain tool in Mylenne Moon Caller. Even if the stamina return is pitiful, the Fury return will help with sustain. I'm not sure if this will beat out Shapeshifter's, but time will tell.

FWIW I am still against the blanket nerf to WW sustain and believe the change should have been specifically targeted at the highest performing WW builds, and not the whole of them. Seeing as the highest performing WW builds all take advantage of Class Mastery skills in one form or another, the interaction between WW form and Class Masteries should have been addressed instead. Until this interaction is removed, I fear that WW form will continue to be on the receiving end of blanket nerfs and sorc wolves will always be the only class of werewolf worth running in PvP, and NB in PvE.

Separating Werewolf form from the Class Mastery system would allow ZOS to make more targeted changes at WW form on its own, and allow them to find a better spot for WW sustain while at the same time bringing the different classes of WW closer together in terms of power level. As it currently stands, WW is receiving nerfs because the one meta WW build is overperforming, and the changes being made are blanketed to all WW builds instead of the singular, problematic meta build.

Are you reading what I’m writing @twing1_ , in full? I know you don’t like what I have to say but I feel like about half to 3/4 of the context is being skimmed before responding; I’m not at all kidding here and I’m not trying to be a ‘jerk’ in saying that either.

Edit: I keep trying to edit out anything that seems jerk-y from that first statement.

Also, for comparison, Mylene generates 25 fury once every 10 seconds at a maximum.

That is 25/1000. Generating once every 10 seconds.

To kind of scale how pitifully weak and useless that truly is I will put this in terms of ‘by itself, how long before a single Rampage’:

So it takes 40 instances of 25/1000 to reach 1000. So it is 40 instances x 10 seconds which equals= 400 seconds (divide by 60 seconds to get minutes) or 6 minutes and 40 seconds for this set to give you enough Rampage by itself to activate it Rampage. It ‘helps’ but it’s almost a zero-some amount especially for damage loss or better sustain from sets like Shapeshifter’s in PvP.

I’m also in agreement with you in that I think it’s health and in both werewolf’s best interest as well as time for the devs (who again would need to spend time and effort adjusting masteries in the future to account for how wolf specifically would benefit) for werewolf to lose access to the mastery system and gain its own ‘werewolf mastery’ system with higher values in PvE that are ‘in Battle-Spirited’ for the PvP side of each high-value mastery.

At first I was somewhat against this as I saw the need for build crafting from others such as Warden’s Major Brittle with Frost mastery however I now and very clearly see how detrimental this is for werewolf’s balancing where they are using a sledgehammer to correct problems exacerbated by masteries like Warden’s with Signet and CoE+Static with Sorc.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.

There is no gap to bridge on werewolf. Werewolf is a top 3 PvP spec, and if you don't agree with that you are either clueless or entirely dishonest.

You make note of 2 specific vampire skills because these are the only 2 worth anything. Undeath is a passive that is used solely to buff other playstyles (Sorc and DK, as you've cited). The other is a spammable that is used to fill in holes in a class that doesn't have access to any.

All Werewolf skills are useable. All Werewolf passives are strong. Werewolf itself is in a really good spot in PvP, and has a place in PvE (even in trial groups) because it functions effectively as DPS and offers group utility.

Its laughable to me that you insist that Werewolf needs more buffs than Vampire does when the Vampire kit may as well be reduced to one passive skill and one active skill (as those are the only two that get any sort of practical use) and is also tied to a significant nerf to sustain and increase to fire damage taken at all times.

I don’t know if you heard this or not-

Werewolf just had its sustain nuked and its whole thing is kinda ‘no-burst, sustained pressure’. Doubling or tripling costs across the board doesn’t exactly help it along. Especially reducing its burst heal by yet another 10% (so before these changes you needed 30k to achieve the same heal as 40k+ gets you now, for reference).

Let’s also not forget that anyone who can do basic math or has been on PTS can see the sustain nerfs to DK and sorc (the meta competition) are basically nothing and this is what werewolf has to go against.

Keep in mind also, that werewolf was REWORKED but now is in the same place sustain-wise as everyone else aside from DK and sorc whereas every other class is awaiting its rework to MATCH that level.

Passives, dots, tooltips were all NERFED for the rework, if you didn’t know. Wanna see it? Go to my ‘discussions’ or just look at their own admittance here-



As I said, no matter happens to vampire, you CAN STILL be a sorc, DK, or later a Warden at will. Additionally and more on topic, Shapeshifter’s chain should be reworked now as that is what they are forcing werewolf into NOW and they can later add flavor for Vampire or a Vampire-Themed mythic should they ever rework vampire.

I'm well aware of the sustain nerf, but even after that Werewolf is still a top 3 PvP spec. Saying otherwise, and implying that Werewolf needs more work than the classes drowning at the bottom of the pool, is entirely disingenuous.

Yes, Wolves will need to consider sustain more than they do on live. Shapeshifter's chain might help with this, and I expect many wolves to run this in the next patch cycle over the esoteric mythic that is currently being abused by many wolves (this needed reigning in). Wolves are also getting a new sustain tool in Mylenne Moon Caller. Even if the stamina return is pitiful, the Fury return will help with sustain. I'm not sure if this will beat out Shapeshifter's, but time will tell.

FWIW I am still against the blanket nerf to WW sustain and believe the change should have been specifically targeted at the highest performing WW builds, and not the whole of them. Seeing as the highest performing WW builds all take advantage of Class Mastery skills in one form or another, the interaction between WW form and Class Masteries should have been addressed instead. Until this interaction is removed, I fear that WW form will continue to be on the receiving end of blanket nerfs and sorc wolves will always be the only class of werewolf worth running in PvP, and NB in PvE.

Separating Werewolf form from the Class Mastery system would allow ZOS to make more targeted changes at WW form on its own, and allow them to find a better spot for WW sustain while at the same time bringing the different classes of WW closer together in terms of power level. As it currently stands, WW is receiving nerfs because the one meta WW build is overperforming, and the changes being made are blanketed to all WW builds instead of the singular, problematic meta build.

Are you reading what I’m writing @twing1_ , in full? I know you don’t like what I have to say but I feel like about half to 3/4 of the context is being skimmed before responding; I’m not at all kidding here and I’m not trying to be a ‘jerk’ in saying that either.

Edit: I keep trying to edit out anything that seems jerk-y from that first statement.

Also, for comparison, Mylene generates 25 fury once every 10 seconds at a maximum.

That is 25/1000. Generating once every 10 seconds.

To kind of scale how pitifully weak and useless that truly is I will put this in terms of ‘by itself, how long before a single Rampage’:

So it takes 40 instances of 25/1000 to reach 1000. So it is 40 instances x 10 seconds which equals= 400 seconds (divide by 60 seconds to get minutes) or 6 minutes and 40 seconds for this set to give you enough Rampage by itself to activate it Rampage. It ‘helps’ but it’s almost a zero-some amount especially for damage loss or better sustain from sets like Shapeshifter’s in PvP.

I’m also in agreement with you in that I think it’s health and in both werewolf’s best interest as well as time for the devs (who again would need to spend time and effort adjusting masteries in the future to account for how wolf specifically would benefit) for werewolf to lose access to the mastery system and gain its own ‘werewolf mastery’ system with higher values in PvE that are ‘in Battle-Spirited’ for the PvP side of each high-value mastery.

At first I was somewhat against this as I saw the need for build crafting from others such as Warden’s Major Brittle with Frost mastery however I now and very clearly see how detrimental this is for werewolf’s balancing where they are using a sledgehammer to correct problems exacerbated by masteries like Warden’s with Signet and CoE+Static with Sorc.

I read your comments in full.

The parts of what you write that trouble me are you saying that werewolf is nuked because they still have better sustain than 4/6 classes, or 5/6 classes if they are a sorc wolf. Werewolf, even post sustain-nerf, is still in a really strong spot in both PvP and PvE.

You are judging WW against the expectation that the other classes will also receive DK-like sustain, which remains to be seen. I do not believe every class, even after the reworks, will end up this way. I believe sustain is an important game mechanic that will always need to be considered, and the pendulum of balance will land on a status quo that is more similar to Werewolf sustain on PTS than it is to DK sustain on live, and hopefully the level of sustain DKs and sorcs at t his moment have access to will be seen as problematic and be reigned in even more.

RE: Mylenne's fury generation:

25 fury/10 seconds is a 16% increase to regular WW fury generation (normally 15/s, w/ mylennes up to 17.5/s). This is a much more honest way of evaluating its fury generation, as opposed to isolating it to see how long it would take to generate one use of Rampage. It is slightly more potent than something like minor endurance, if you were to compare Fury as a resource to Stamina. It is significant.

So there are a variety of factors that increase Rampage Fury generation such as Berserker Corpse Feed, the passive, and Feral Carnage along with Hircine’s Rage. 16% is woefully small but you paint my point to be disingenuous completely disregarding that your 16% is less than even that number alone xD.

You say ‘they won’t end up like DK’, but CoF and CoE weren’t even on the chopping block this patch originally and only after ‘infinite sustain bad m’kay’ was trending did we even get a 20%-25% nerf to either (so there’s CLEARLY resistance from the dev team to adjust these in any meaningful way)… so ‘infinite sustain’ drops down to… infinite sustain. Nice!

I think you misunderstand in that werewolf is its only little thing. I can’t sub in contingency for a burst move after all. If I had more damage and pressure before (especially with defiles) how does it do better with sustain problems again but less tooltip, well everything?

Werewolf is the only ‘class’ in the game whose only method of damage is sustained damage. Every time werewolf ‘dies’, it’s when its sustain/pressure are drastically affected. An ‘ult’ for sustain is cool and all until you realize you need sustain (and to ‘tank’ damage if you build sustain due to wolf stat spread) to reach it. Probably the most flawed concept of all.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.

There is no gap to bridge on werewolf. Werewolf is a top 3 PvP spec, and if you don't agree with that you are either clueless or entirely dishonest.

You make note of 2 specific vampire skills because these are the only 2 worth anything. Undeath is a passive that is used solely to buff other playstyles (Sorc and DK, as you've cited). The other is a spammable that is used to fill in holes in a class that doesn't have access to any.

All Werewolf skills are useable. All Werewolf passives are strong. Werewolf itself is in a really good spot in PvP, and has a place in PvE (even in trial groups) because it functions effectively as DPS and offers group utility.

Its laughable to me that you insist that Werewolf needs more buffs than Vampire does when the Vampire kit may as well be reduced to one passive skill and one active skill (as those are the only two that get any sort of practical use) and is also tied to a significant nerf to sustain and increase to fire damage taken at all times.

I don’t know if you heard this or not-

Werewolf just had its sustain nuked and its whole thing is kinda ‘no-burst, sustained pressure’. Doubling or tripling costs across the board doesn’t exactly help it along. Especially reducing its burst heal by yet another 10% (so before these changes you needed 30k to achieve the same heal as 40k+ gets you now, for reference).

Let’s also not forget that anyone who can do basic math or has been on PTS can see the sustain nerfs to DK and sorc (the meta competition) are basically nothing and this is what werewolf has to go against.

Keep in mind also, that werewolf was REWORKED but now is in the same place sustain-wise as everyone else aside from DK and sorc whereas every other class is awaiting its rework to MATCH that level.

Passives, dots, tooltips were all NERFED for the rework, if you didn’t know. Wanna see it? Go to my ‘discussions’ or just look at their own admittance here-



As I said, no matter happens to vampire, you CAN STILL be a sorc, DK, or later a Warden at will. Additionally and more on topic, Shapeshifter’s chain should be reworked now as that is what they are forcing werewolf into NOW and they can later add flavor for Vampire or a Vampire-Themed mythic should they ever rework vampire.

I'm well aware of the sustain nerf, but even after that Werewolf is still a top 3 PvP spec. Saying otherwise, and implying that Werewolf needs more work than the classes drowning at the bottom of the pool, is entirely disingenuous.

Yes, Wolves will need to consider sustain more than they do on live. Shapeshifter's chain might help with this, and I expect many wolves to run this in the next patch cycle over the esoteric mythic that is currently being abused by many wolves (this needed reigning in). Wolves are also getting a new sustain tool in Mylenne Moon Caller. Even if the stamina return is pitiful, the Fury return will help with sustain. I'm not sure if this will beat out Shapeshifter's, but time will tell.

FWIW I am still against the blanket nerf to WW sustain and believe the change should have been specifically targeted at the highest performing WW builds, and not the whole of them. Seeing as the highest performing WW builds all take advantage of Class Mastery skills in one form or another, the interaction between WW form and Class Masteries should have been addressed instead. Until this interaction is removed, I fear that WW form will continue to be on the receiving end of blanket nerfs and sorc wolves will always be the only class of werewolf worth running in PvP, and NB in PvE.

Separating Werewolf form from the Class Mastery system would allow ZOS to make more targeted changes at WW form on its own, and allow them to find a better spot for WW sustain while at the same time bringing the different classes of WW closer together in terms of power level. As it currently stands, WW is receiving nerfs because the one meta WW build is overperforming, and the changes being made are blanketed to all WW builds instead of the singular, problematic meta build.

Are you reading what I’m writing @twing1_ , in full? I know you don’t like what I have to say but I feel like about half to 3/4 of the context is being skimmed before responding; I’m not at all kidding here and I’m not trying to be a ‘jerk’ in saying that either.

Edit: I keep trying to edit out anything that seems jerk-y from that first statement.

Also, for comparison, Mylene generates 25 fury once every 10 seconds at a maximum.

That is 25/1000. Generating once every 10 seconds.

To kind of scale how pitifully weak and useless that truly is I will put this in terms of ‘by itself, how long before a single Rampage’:

So it takes 40 instances of 25/1000 to reach 1000. So it is 40 instances x 10 seconds which equals= 400 seconds (divide by 60 seconds to get minutes) or 6 minutes and 40 seconds for this set to give you enough Rampage by itself to activate it Rampage. It ‘helps’ but it’s almost a zero-some amount especially for damage loss or better sustain from sets like Shapeshifter’s in PvP.

I’m also in agreement with you in that I think it’s health and in both werewolf’s best interest as well as time for the devs (who again would need to spend time and effort adjusting masteries in the future to account for how wolf specifically would benefit) for werewolf to lose access to the mastery system and gain its own ‘werewolf mastery’ system with higher values in PvE that are ‘in Battle-Spirited’ for the PvP side of each high-value mastery.

At first I was somewhat against this as I saw the need for build crafting from others such as Warden’s Major Brittle with Frost mastery however I now and very clearly see how detrimental this is for werewolf’s balancing where they are using a sledgehammer to correct problems exacerbated by masteries like Warden’s with Signet and CoE+Static with Sorc.

I read your comments in full.

The parts of what you write that trouble me are you saying that werewolf is nuked because they still have better sustain than 4/6 classes, or 5/6 classes if they are a sorc wolf. Werewolf, even post sustain-nerf, is still in a really strong spot in both PvP and PvE.

You are judging WW against the expectation that the other classes will also receive DK-like sustain, which remains to be seen. I do not believe every class, even after the reworks, will end up this way. I believe sustain is an important game mechanic that will always need to be considered, and the pendulum of balance will land on a status quo that is more similar to Werewolf sustain on PTS than it is to DK sustain on live, and hopefully the level of sustain DKs and sorcs at t his moment have access to will be seen as problematic and be reigned in even more.

RE: Mylenne's fury generation:

25 fury/10 seconds is a 16% increase to regular WW fury generation (normally 15/s, w/ mylennes up to 17.5/s). This is a much more honest way of evaluating its fury generation, as opposed to isolating it to see how long it would take to generate one use of Rampage. It is slightly more potent than something like minor endurance, if you were to compare Fury as a resource to Stamina. It is significant.

So there are a variety of factors that increase Rampage Fury generation such as Berserker Corpse Feed, the passive, and Feral Carnage along with Hircine’s Rage. 16% is woefully small but you paint my point to be disingenuous completely disregarding that your 16% is less than even that number alone xD.

You say ‘they won’t end up like DK’, but CoF and CoE weren’t even on the chopping block this patch originally and only after ‘infinite sustain bad m’kay’ was trending did we even get a 20%-25% nerf to either (so there’s CLEARLY resistance from the dev team to adjust these in any meaningful way)… so ‘infinite sustain’ drops down to… infinite sustain. Nice!

I think you misunderstand in that werewolf is its only little thing. I can’t sub in contingency for a burst move after all. If I had more damage and pressure before (especially with defiles) how does it do better with sustain problems again but less tooltip, well everything?

Werewolf is the only ‘class’ in the game whose only method of damage is sustained damage. Every time werewolf ‘dies’, it’s when its sustain/pressure are drastically affected. An ‘ult’ for sustain is cool and all until you realize you need sustain (and to ‘tank’ damage if you build sustain due to wolf stat spread) to reach it. Probably the most flawed concept of all.

Even if you were able to reliably improve WW fury generation to 30 fury/s without Mylenne, Mylenne's 25 Fury/10s still boosts WW Fury generation by over 8%. That is significant. That is more than the boost in healing that minor mending/vitality grants you. Are those minor buffs "woefully small" as well?

The "less tool tip, well everything" you mention can all be boosted by the bonus to damage done granted by Rampage, which was added with the WW rework. The Rampage mechanic allows WWs to create windows of higher burst than was previously available to them, but it does come at the cost of a slight reduction to tooltip values when Rampage is not active. IMO it creates a more engaging playstyle that rewards opportunistic timing of what is effectively the WW's Ultimate skill.

CoE and HoF being addressed at all shows me that ZOS does consider the levels of sustain currently available on live to be problematic, even if it does result from complaining on the forum.

There are almost just as many people on the forum complaining about the overpowered state WW is in as there are about CoE and HoF. This is indicative that WW also needs addressing.

Again, I do not agree with how they've addressed WW thus far with the blanket nerf to sustain. But the way you are painting the picture and claiming how WW has been "obliterated" makes it sound like you truly believe WW is a bottom tier spec, and that is simply not the case. The hyperbole of your words also makes it sound like you are not a trustworthy source of information and diminishes your voice to one of those that is only satisfied with buffs to their favorite playstyle, even if they are already at the top of the totem pole.

In saying that I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just trying to shed some light on how others might interpret your words.

8 percent, what are we even arguing anymore???

I get my Rampage 8% faster AND I am forced to run a set and pretend that solves all of my issues?! (oh, and while we're at it we'll just completely ignore Shapeshifter's and Roska's; both of which equate to far more sustain and consistent ability to make it Rampage in the first place)?

Moving on with your 'Gish Gallop'- Rampage WOULD be engaging IF it wasn't just amplifying the same thing that was there (as in it provides exactly what I have in-kit but more of that versus an additional burst/dot of its own like 'Rend'; keep in mind, this basically means any sustain built to reach Rampage is a direct loss to the 'burst window' of Rampage itself also)

Beyond that, '15% from an ult' doesn't equate to the 15% damage loss in-kit, it actually ends up being SIGNIFICANTLY more especially considering what else was lost. That is simply the number THEY gave (and I believe it was in the intro of the 'rework PTS' where we were nerfed pretty heavily too)... this is what the losses ACTUALLY looked like in comparison (in addition to the diminished standard tooltips)>>>











Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692088/werewolf-tooltips-pvp-significantly-nerfed-from-live-proof#latest

Notice VERY CLEARLY that you're losing more than 15%. You're losing 75% dot uptimes, you're losing a significant amount of additional damage off of the Berserker Bleed, the 'Savage Strength' passive was reduced by almost half, you're losing defiles (countering HPS), you're losing a UNIQUE 'up to' 600 wep/spell from Pounce/Carnage, you're losing a conditional 10 to 20 percent for your spammable (WAIT! 'but the execute'... except that you have to GET them in execute FIRST) in ADDITION to those tooltips.

I never once said 'werewolf is now a bottom tier spec', if you spend less time trying to put words in my mouth and more time interpreting what I'm relaying- you'll very likely better understand the conversation at-hand.

Also, for the record them adjusting 'CoE and CoF' is the same sentiment they adjusted werewolf in. They had a vision, they heard outrage, it was adjusted. It's HOW they adjusted them (a measly 20% for CoF which still results in 2.7k 'resource recov' with 23k resource missing) that demonstrates their reluctance to actually and seriously adjust CoF and CoE (i.e., here's the "nerf" for your complaining but WE believe it should remain and should be a significant factor in how we are continuing to design our combat system).

Also, quick question- at any point have you wondered why werewolf was objectively horrible in the first place or do you honestly believe it having these things taken away from it, losing the sustain it was given in that place (as a trade-off for those things), and no concessions being made results in it being 'smooth sailing' from this point on?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.

There is no gap to bridge on werewolf. Werewolf is a top 3 PvP spec, and if you don't agree with that you are either clueless or entirely dishonest.

You make note of 2 specific vampire skills because these are the only 2 worth anything. Undeath is a passive that is used solely to buff other playstyles (Sorc and DK, as you've cited). The other is a spammable that is used to fill in holes in a class that doesn't have access to any.

All Werewolf skills are useable. All Werewolf passives are strong. Werewolf itself is in a really good spot in PvP, and has a place in PvE (even in trial groups) because it functions effectively as DPS and offers group utility.

Its laughable to me that you insist that Werewolf needs more buffs than Vampire does when the Vampire kit may as well be reduced to one passive skill and one active skill (as those are the only two that get any sort of practical use) and is also tied to a significant nerf to sustain and increase to fire damage taken at all times.

I don’t know if you heard this or not-

Werewolf just had its sustain nuked and its whole thing is kinda ‘no-burst, sustained pressure’. Doubling or tripling costs across the board doesn’t exactly help it along. Especially reducing its burst heal by yet another 10% (so before these changes you needed 30k to achieve the same heal as 40k+ gets you now, for reference).

Let’s also not forget that anyone who can do basic math or has been on PTS can see the sustain nerfs to DK and sorc (the meta competition) are basically nothing and this is what werewolf has to go against.

Keep in mind also, that werewolf was REWORKED but now is in the same place sustain-wise as everyone else aside from DK and sorc whereas every other class is awaiting its rework to MATCH that level.

Passives, dots, tooltips were all NERFED for the rework, if you didn’t know. Wanna see it? Go to my ‘discussions’ or just look at their own admittance here-



As I said, no matter happens to vampire, you CAN STILL be a sorc, DK, or later a Warden at will. Additionally and more on topic, Shapeshifter’s chain should be reworked now as that is what they are forcing werewolf into NOW and they can later add flavor for Vampire or a Vampire-Themed mythic should they ever rework vampire.

I'm well aware of the sustain nerf, but even after that Werewolf is still a top 3 PvP spec. Saying otherwise, and implying that Werewolf needs more work than the classes drowning at the bottom of the pool, is entirely disingenuous.

Yes, Wolves will need to consider sustain more than they do on live. Shapeshifter's chain might help with this, and I expect many wolves to run this in the next patch cycle over the esoteric mythic that is currently being abused by many wolves (this needed reigning in). Wolves are also getting a new sustain tool in Mylenne Moon Caller. Even if the stamina return is pitiful, the Fury return will help with sustain. I'm not sure if this will beat out Shapeshifter's, but time will tell.

FWIW I am still against the blanket nerf to WW sustain and believe the change should have been specifically targeted at the highest performing WW builds, and not the whole of them. Seeing as the highest performing WW builds all take advantage of Class Mastery skills in one form or another, the interaction between WW form and Class Masteries should have been addressed instead. Until this interaction is removed, I fear that WW form will continue to be on the receiving end of blanket nerfs and sorc wolves will always be the only class of werewolf worth running in PvP, and NB in PvE.

Separating Werewolf form from the Class Mastery system would allow ZOS to make more targeted changes at WW form on its own, and allow them to find a better spot for WW sustain while at the same time bringing the different classes of WW closer together in terms of power level. As it currently stands, WW is receiving nerfs because the one meta WW build is overperforming, and the changes being made are blanketed to all WW builds instead of the singular, problematic meta build.

Are you reading what I’m writing @twing1_ , in full? I know you don’t like what I have to say but I feel like about half to 3/4 of the context is being skimmed before responding; I’m not at all kidding here and I’m not trying to be a ‘jerk’ in saying that either.

Edit: I keep trying to edit out anything that seems jerk-y from that first statement.

Also, for comparison, Mylene generates 25 fury once every 10 seconds at a maximum.

That is 25/1000. Generating once every 10 seconds.

To kind of scale how pitifully weak and useless that truly is I will put this in terms of ‘by itself, how long before a single Rampage’:

So it takes 40 instances of 25/1000 to reach 1000. So it is 40 instances x 10 seconds which equals= 400 seconds (divide by 60 seconds to get minutes) or 6 minutes and 40 seconds for this set to give you enough Rampage by itself to activate it Rampage. It ‘helps’ but it’s almost a zero-some amount especially for damage loss or better sustain from sets like Shapeshifter’s in PvP.

I’m also in agreement with you in that I think it’s health and in both werewolf’s best interest as well as time for the devs (who again would need to spend time and effort adjusting masteries in the future to account for how wolf specifically would benefit) for werewolf to lose access to the mastery system and gain its own ‘werewolf mastery’ system with higher values in PvE that are ‘in Battle-Spirited’ for the PvP side of each high-value mastery.

At first I was somewhat against this as I saw the need for build crafting from others such as Warden’s Major Brittle with Frost mastery however I now and very clearly see how detrimental this is for werewolf’s balancing where they are using a sledgehammer to correct problems exacerbated by masteries like Warden’s with Signet and CoE+Static with Sorc.

I read your comments in full.

The parts of what you write that trouble me are you saying that werewolf is nuked because they still have better sustain than 4/6 classes, or 5/6 classes if they are a sorc wolf. Werewolf, even post sustain-nerf, is still in a really strong spot in both PvP and PvE.

You are judging WW against the expectation that the other classes will also receive DK-like sustain, which remains to be seen. I do not believe every class, even after the reworks, will end up this way. I believe sustain is an important game mechanic that will always need to be considered, and the pendulum of balance will land on a status quo that is more similar to Werewolf sustain on PTS than it is to DK sustain on live, and hopefully the level of sustain DKs and sorcs at t his moment have access to will be seen as problematic and be reigned in even more.

RE: Mylenne's fury generation:

25 fury/10 seconds is a 16% increase to regular WW fury generation (normally 15/s, w/ mylennes up to 17.5/s). This is a much more honest way of evaluating its fury generation, as opposed to isolating it to see how long it would take to generate one use of Rampage. It is slightly more potent than something like minor endurance, if you were to compare Fury as a resource to Stamina. It is significant.

So there are a variety of factors that increase Rampage Fury generation such as Berserker Corpse Feed, the passive, and Feral Carnage along with Hircine’s Rage. 16% is woefully small but you paint my point to be disingenuous completely disregarding that your 16% is less than even that number alone xD.

You say ‘they won’t end up like DK’, but CoF and CoE weren’t even on the chopping block this patch originally and only after ‘infinite sustain bad m’kay’ was trending did we even get a 20%-25% nerf to either (so there’s CLEARLY resistance from the dev team to adjust these in any meaningful way)… so ‘infinite sustain’ drops down to… infinite sustain. Nice!

I think you misunderstand in that werewolf is its only little thing. I can’t sub in contingency for a burst move after all. If I had more damage and pressure before (especially with defiles) how does it do better with sustain problems again but less tooltip, well everything?

Werewolf is the only ‘class’ in the game whose only method of damage is sustained damage. Every time werewolf ‘dies’, it’s when its sustain/pressure are drastically affected. An ‘ult’ for sustain is cool and all until you realize you need sustain (and to ‘tank’ damage if you build sustain due to wolf stat spread) to reach it. Probably the most flawed concept of all.

Even if you were able to reliably improve WW fury generation to 30 fury/s without Mylenne, Mylenne's 25 Fury/10s still boosts WW Fury generation by over 8%. That is significant. That is more than the boost in healing that minor mending/vitality grants you. Are those minor buffs "woefully small" as well?

The "less tool tip, well everything" you mention can all be boosted by the bonus to damage done granted by Rampage, which was added with the WW rework. The Rampage mechanic allows WWs to create windows of higher burst than was previously available to them, but it does come at the cost of a slight reduction to tooltip values when Rampage is not active. IMO it creates a more engaging playstyle that rewards opportunistic timing of what is effectively the WW's Ultimate skill.

CoE and HoF being addressed at all shows me that ZOS does consider the levels of sustain currently available on live to be problematic, even if it does result from complaining on the forum.

There are almost just as many people on the forum complaining about the overpowered state WW is in as there are about CoE and HoF. This is indicative that WW also needs addressing.

Again, I do not agree with how they've addressed WW thus far with the blanket nerf to sustain. But the way you are painting the picture and claiming how WW has been "obliterated" makes it sound like you truly believe WW is a bottom tier spec, and that is simply not the case. The hyperbole of your words also makes it sound like you are not a trustworthy source of information and diminishes your voice to one of those that is only satisfied with buffs to their favorite playstyle, even if they are already at the top of the totem pole.

In saying that I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just trying to shed some light on how others might interpret your words.

8 percent, what are we even arguing anymore???

I get my Rampage 8% faster AND I am forced to run a set and pretend that solves all of my issues?! (oh, and while we're at it we'll just completely ignore Shapeshifter's and Roska's; both of which equate to far more sustain and consistent ability to make it Rampage in the first place)?

Moving on with your 'Gish Gallop'- Rampage WOULD be engaging IF it wasn't just amplifying the same thing that was there (as in it provides exactly what I have in-kit but more of that versus an additional burst/dot of its own like 'Rend'; keep in mind, this basically means any sustain built to reach Rampage is a direct loss to the 'burst window' of Rampage itself also)

Beyond that, '15% from an ult' doesn't equate to the 15% damage loss in-kit, it actually ends up being SIGNIFICANTLY more especially considering what else was lost. That is simply the number THEY gave (and I believe it was in the intro of the 'rework PTS' where we were nerfed pretty heavily too)... this is what the losses ACTUALLY looked like in comparison (in addition to the diminished standard tooltips)>>>











Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692088/werewolf-tooltips-pvp-significantly-nerfed-from-live-proof#latest

Notice VERY CLEARLY that you're losing more than 15%. You're losing 75% dot uptimes, you're losing a significant amount of additional damage off of the Berserker Bleed, the 'Savage Strength' passive was reduced by almost half, you're losing defiles (countering HPS), you're losing a UNIQUE 'up to' 600 wep/spell from Pounce/Carnage, you're losing a conditional 10 to 20 percent for your spammable (WAIT! 'but the execute'... except that you have to GET them in execute FIRST) in ADDITION to those tooltips.

I never once said 'werewolf is now a bottom tier spec', if you spend less time trying to put words in my mouth and more time interpreting what I'm relaying- you'll very likely better understand the conversation at-hand.

Also, for the record them adjusting 'CoE and CoF' is the same sentiment they adjusted werewolf in. They had a vision, they heard outrage, it was adjusted. It's HOW they adjusted them (a measly 20% for CoF which still results in 2.7k 'resource recov' with 23k resource missing) that demonstrates their reluctance to actually and seriously adjust CoF and CoE (i.e., here's the "nerf" for your complaining but WE believe it should remain and should be a significant factor in how we are continuing to design our combat system).

Also, quick question- at any point have you wondered why werewolf was objectively horrible in the first place or do you honestly believe it having these things taken away from it, losing the sustain it was given in that place (as a trade-off for those things), and no concessions being made results in it being 'smooth sailing' from this point on?

I think Werewolves got indisputably stronger after the rework, even after the sustain nerf on the PTS. This is despite your claim that it lost tooltip damage without "concessions being made".

I'm not in the minority here, either. Almost everyone can see that Werewolf is far more potent after the rework and much more viable. Beyond viable, even. WW is a top 3 PvP spec in the game, and the gap between the top 3 and the rest of the bottom is quite drastic.

You are making it sound like WW is weaker after the rework.


Do you believe this to be true?

I think that people will complain until werewolf disappears from their face. I believe I could throw as much math, logic, and CMX data at the majority of people talking about werewolf in a negative connotation and their perspective would not shift slightly (it was never going to shift). I fully believe the nerfs were absolute OVERKILL and they still leave in health-based healing and masteries in prime exploitation range.

DK is objectively better in every way than werewolf after this upcoming patch. Even sorc is a tremendous threat thanks to range, streak, and CoE. You'll see this very clearly when the patch drops and the majority switch to sorcs and DKs in the same capacity they swapped to werewolf in the 'werewolf patch'. It's strange HOW MUCH STRONGER they are despite werewolf being 1 of the only 2 'new power level', 'reworked specs' (and JUST having received their rework at that).

As always, I extend the invitation (and I hardly play DK)- since you have no data of your own and only offer these whimsical questions>>>

feel free to hop on PTS with any wolf of your choosing and I'll make a 2 defensive set DK build and we can surely see who wins. The point will be to show you how one-sided of a fight that will be since you're incapable of understanding this despite all information provided.

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.

There is no gap to bridge on werewolf. Werewolf is a top 3 PvP spec, and if you don't agree with that you are either clueless or entirely dishonest.

You make note of 2 specific vampire skills because these are the only 2 worth anything. Undeath is a passive that is used solely to buff other playstyles (Sorc and DK, as you've cited). The other is a spammable that is used to fill in holes in a class that doesn't have access to any.

All Werewolf skills are useable. All Werewolf passives are strong. Werewolf itself is in a really good spot in PvP, and has a place in PvE (even in trial groups) because it functions effectively as DPS and offers group utility.

Its laughable to me that you insist that Werewolf needs more buffs than Vampire does when the Vampire kit may as well be reduced to one passive skill and one active skill (as those are the only two that get any sort of practical use) and is also tied to a significant nerf to sustain and increase to fire damage taken at all times.

I don’t know if you heard this or not-

Werewolf just had its sustain nuked and its whole thing is kinda ‘no-burst, sustained pressure’. Doubling or tripling costs across the board doesn’t exactly help it along. Especially reducing its burst heal by yet another 10% (so before these changes you needed 30k to achieve the same heal as 40k+ gets you now, for reference).

Let’s also not forget that anyone who can do basic math or has been on PTS can see the sustain nerfs to DK and sorc (the meta competition) are basically nothing and this is what werewolf has to go against.

Keep in mind also, that werewolf was REWORKED but now is in the same place sustain-wise as everyone else aside from DK and sorc whereas every other class is awaiting its rework to MATCH that level.

Passives, dots, tooltips were all NERFED for the rework, if you didn’t know. Wanna see it? Go to my ‘discussions’ or just look at their own admittance here-



As I said, no matter happens to vampire, you CAN STILL be a sorc, DK, or later a Warden at will. Additionally and more on topic, Shapeshifter’s chain should be reworked now as that is what they are forcing werewolf into NOW and they can later add flavor for Vampire or a Vampire-Themed mythic should they ever rework vampire.

I'm well aware of the sustain nerf, but even after that Werewolf is still a top 3 PvP spec. Saying otherwise, and implying that Werewolf needs more work than the classes drowning at the bottom of the pool, is entirely disingenuous.

Yes, Wolves will need to consider sustain more than they do on live. Shapeshifter's chain might help with this, and I expect many wolves to run this in the next patch cycle over the esoteric mythic that is currently being abused by many wolves (this needed reigning in). Wolves are also getting a new sustain tool in Mylenne Moon Caller. Even if the stamina return is pitiful, the Fury return will help with sustain. I'm not sure if this will beat out Shapeshifter's, but time will tell.

FWIW I am still against the blanket nerf to WW sustain and believe the change should have been specifically targeted at the highest performing WW builds, and not the whole of them. Seeing as the highest performing WW builds all take advantage of Class Mastery skills in one form or another, the interaction between WW form and Class Masteries should have been addressed instead. Until this interaction is removed, I fear that WW form will continue to be on the receiving end of blanket nerfs and sorc wolves will always be the only class of werewolf worth running in PvP, and NB in PvE.

Separating Werewolf form from the Class Mastery system would allow ZOS to make more targeted changes at WW form on its own, and allow them to find a better spot for WW sustain while at the same time bringing the different classes of WW closer together in terms of power level. As it currently stands, WW is receiving nerfs because the one meta WW build is overperforming, and the changes being made are blanketed to all WW builds instead of the singular, problematic meta build.

Are you reading what I’m writing @twing1_ , in full? I know you don’t like what I have to say but I feel like about half to 3/4 of the context is being skimmed before responding; I’m not at all kidding here and I’m not trying to be a ‘jerk’ in saying that either.

Edit: I keep trying to edit out anything that seems jerk-y from that first statement.

Also, for comparison, Mylene generates 25 fury once every 10 seconds at a maximum.

That is 25/1000. Generating once every 10 seconds.

To kind of scale how pitifully weak and useless that truly is I will put this in terms of ‘by itself, how long before a single Rampage’:

So it takes 40 instances of 25/1000 to reach 1000. So it is 40 instances x 10 seconds which equals= 400 seconds (divide by 60 seconds to get minutes) or 6 minutes and 40 seconds for this set to give you enough Rampage by itself to activate it Rampage. It ‘helps’ but it’s almost a zero-some amount especially for damage loss or better sustain from sets like Shapeshifter’s in PvP.

I’m also in agreement with you in that I think it’s health and in both werewolf’s best interest as well as time for the devs (who again would need to spend time and effort adjusting masteries in the future to account for how wolf specifically would benefit) for werewolf to lose access to the mastery system and gain its own ‘werewolf mastery’ system with higher values in PvE that are ‘in Battle-Spirited’ for the PvP side of each high-value mastery.

At first I was somewhat against this as I saw the need for build crafting from others such as Warden’s Major Brittle with Frost mastery however I now and very clearly see how detrimental this is for werewolf’s balancing where they are using a sledgehammer to correct problems exacerbated by masteries like Warden’s with Signet and CoE+Static with Sorc.

I read your comments in full.

The parts of what you write that trouble me are you saying that werewolf is nuked because they still have better sustain than 4/6 classes, or 5/6 classes if they are a sorc wolf. Werewolf, even post sustain-nerf, is still in a really strong spot in both PvP and PvE.

You are judging WW against the expectation that the other classes will also receive DK-like sustain, which remains to be seen. I do not believe every class, even after the reworks, will end up this way. I believe sustain is an important game mechanic that will always need to be considered, and the pendulum of balance will land on a status quo that is more similar to Werewolf sustain on PTS than it is to DK sustain on live, and hopefully the level of sustain DKs and sorcs at t his moment have access to will be seen as problematic and be reigned in even more.

RE: Mylenne's fury generation:

25 fury/10 seconds is a 16% increase to regular WW fury generation (normally 15/s, w/ mylennes up to 17.5/s). This is a much more honest way of evaluating its fury generation, as opposed to isolating it to see how long it would take to generate one use of Rampage. It is slightly more potent than something like minor endurance, if you were to compare Fury as a resource to Stamina. It is significant.

So there are a variety of factors that increase Rampage Fury generation such as Berserker Corpse Feed, the passive, and Feral Carnage along with Hircine’s Rage. 16% is woefully small but you paint my point to be disingenuous completely disregarding that your 16% is less than even that number alone xD.

You say ‘they won’t end up like DK’, but CoF and CoE weren’t even on the chopping block this patch originally and only after ‘infinite sustain bad m’kay’ was trending did we even get a 20%-25% nerf to either (so there’s CLEARLY resistance from the dev team to adjust these in any meaningful way)… so ‘infinite sustain’ drops down to… infinite sustain. Nice!

I think you misunderstand in that werewolf is its only little thing. I can’t sub in contingency for a burst move after all. If I had more damage and pressure before (especially with defiles) how does it do better with sustain problems again but less tooltip, well everything?

Werewolf is the only ‘class’ in the game whose only method of damage is sustained damage. Every time werewolf ‘dies’, it’s when its sustain/pressure are drastically affected. An ‘ult’ for sustain is cool and all until you realize you need sustain (and to ‘tank’ damage if you build sustain due to wolf stat spread) to reach it. Probably the most flawed concept of all.

Even if you were able to reliably improve WW fury generation to 30 fury/s without Mylenne, Mylenne's 25 Fury/10s still boosts WW Fury generation by over 8%. That is significant. That is more than the boost in healing that minor mending/vitality grants you. Are those minor buffs "woefully small" as well?

The "less tool tip, well everything" you mention can all be boosted by the bonus to damage done granted by Rampage, which was added with the WW rework. The Rampage mechanic allows WWs to create windows of higher burst than was previously available to them, but it does come at the cost of a slight reduction to tooltip values when Rampage is not active. IMO it creates a more engaging playstyle that rewards opportunistic timing of what is effectively the WW's Ultimate skill.

CoE and HoF being addressed at all shows me that ZOS does consider the levels of sustain currently available on live to be problematic, even if it does result from complaining on the forum.

There are almost just as many people on the forum complaining about the overpowered state WW is in as there are about CoE and HoF. This is indicative that WW also needs addressing.

Again, I do not agree with how they've addressed WW thus far with the blanket nerf to sustain. But the way you are painting the picture and claiming how WW has been "obliterated" makes it sound like you truly believe WW is a bottom tier spec, and that is simply not the case. The hyperbole of your words also makes it sound like you are not a trustworthy source of information and diminishes your voice to one of those that is only satisfied with buffs to their favorite playstyle, even if they are already at the top of the totem pole.

In saying that I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just trying to shed some light on how others might interpret your words.

8 percent, what are we even arguing anymore???

I get my Rampage 8% faster AND I am forced to run a set and pretend that solves all of my issues?! (oh, and while we're at it we'll just completely ignore Shapeshifter's and Roska's; both of which equate to far more sustain and consistent ability to make it Rampage in the first place)?

Moving on with your 'Gish Gallop'- Rampage WOULD be engaging IF it wasn't just amplifying the same thing that was there (as in it provides exactly what I have in-kit but more of that versus an additional burst/dot of its own like 'Rend'; keep in mind, this basically means any sustain built to reach Rampage is a direct loss to the 'burst window' of Rampage itself also)

Beyond that, '15% from an ult' doesn't equate to the 15% damage loss in-kit, it actually ends up being SIGNIFICANTLY more especially considering what else was lost. That is simply the number THEY gave (and I believe it was in the intro of the 'rework PTS' where we were nerfed pretty heavily too)... this is what the losses ACTUALLY looked like in comparison (in addition to the diminished standard tooltips)>>>











Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692088/werewolf-tooltips-pvp-significantly-nerfed-from-live-proof#latest

Notice VERY CLEARLY that you're losing more than 15%. You're losing 75% dot uptimes, you're losing a significant amount of additional damage off of the Berserker Bleed, the 'Savage Strength' passive was reduced by almost half, you're losing defiles (countering HPS), you're losing a UNIQUE 'up to' 600 wep/spell from Pounce/Carnage, you're losing a conditional 10 to 20 percent for your spammable (WAIT! 'but the execute'... except that you have to GET them in execute FIRST) in ADDITION to those tooltips.

I never once said 'werewolf is now a bottom tier spec', if you spend less time trying to put words in my mouth and more time interpreting what I'm relaying- you'll very likely better understand the conversation at-hand.

Also, for the record them adjusting 'CoE and CoF' is the same sentiment they adjusted werewolf in. They had a vision, they heard outrage, it was adjusted. It's HOW they adjusted them (a measly 20% for CoF which still results in 2.7k 'resource recov' with 23k resource missing) that demonstrates their reluctance to actually and seriously adjust CoF and CoE (i.e., here's the "nerf" for your complaining but WE believe it should remain and should be a significant factor in how we are continuing to design our combat system).

Also, quick question- at any point have you wondered why werewolf was objectively horrible in the first place or do you honestly believe it having these things taken away from it, losing the sustain it was given in that place (as a trade-off for those things), and no concessions being made results in it being 'smooth sailing' from this point on?

I think Werewolves got indisputably stronger after the rework, even after the sustain nerf on the PTS. This is despite your claim that it lost tooltip damage without "concessions being made".

I'm not in the minority here, either. Almost everyone can see that Werewolf is far more potent after the rework and much more viable. Beyond viable, even. WW is a top 3 PvP spec in the game, and the gap between the top 3 and the rest of the bottom is quite drastic.

You are making it sound like WW is weaker after the rework.


Do you believe this to be true?

I think that people will complain until werewolf disappears from their face. I believe I could throw as much math, logic, and CMX data at the majority of people talking about werewolf in a negative connotation and their perspective would not shift slightly (it was never going to shift). I fully believe the nerfs were absolute OVERKILL and they still leave in health-based healing and masteries in prime exploitation range.

DK is objectively better in every way than werewolf after this upcoming patch. Even sorc is a tremendous threat thanks to range, streak, and CoE. You'll see this very clearly when the patch drops and the majority switch to sorcs and DKs in the same capacity they swapped to werewolf in the 'werewolf patch'. It's strange HOW MUCH STRONGER they are despite werewolf being 1 of the only 2 'new power level', 'reworked specs' (and JUST having received their rework at that).

As always, I extend the invitation (and I hardly play DK)- since you have no data of your own and only offer these whimsical questions>>>

feel free to hop on PTS with any wolf of your choosing and I'll make a 2 defensive set DK build and we can surely see who wins. The point will be to show you how one-sided of a fight that will be since you're incapable of understanding this despite all information provided.

I understand that DK, Sorc, and wolf are top of the totem pole right now.

Just because DK is over tuned does not mean WW isn't also.

Similarly to how you encounter people who want to see nerfs to WW no matter what, you have proven yourself equally biased. You are even willing to Goa a far as to imply that the WW rework actually hurt their standing. This is simply not true.

To me, if you are unwilling to admit that WW was improved by the rework, you've lost all credibility as a voice for WW balance.

twing1_ wrote: »

[I agree shapeshifters chain needs a rework, I don't like the idea of it further tying the Werewolf playstyle to the playstyle of other classes. I feel like this would only further drive Werewolf toward a singular meta class, like is currently occurring with Sorc for PvP or NB for PvE.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'd need to double check this but I assume mylenne's generates 35 fury every 10 seconds with the werewolf passive.

When not using Hircine's rage & Mylenne's it will takes about 40s of actively using abilies on cooldown to generate enough fury to activate Rampage.

Using Mylenne's should take you 35 seconds to build your fury. Which basically takes you from 50% uptime of Rampage to 62.5% uptime when chaining it, as you can gain fury while rampage is active. Essentially a reduction of 25% in downtime which is actually pretty nice for the other benefits it grants (especially in pve land).

This stam return is horrendous. Constant parsing resulted in 81 stam per second (or 162 'stam recov') on a straight parse.

Obviously it's based on 'damage done' but against players... the tooltip is halfed (as half of its damage or so has an 'OUT of Battle Spirit' condition), the tooltip is halfed again due to Battle Spirit, and players tend to build SIGNIFICANTLY more mitigation than the average add.

So before even accounting for other players' mitigation, the stam return (which is based off 'damage done') is 162/2 (since half of set damage locked behind 'OUT of Battle Spirit') which equals 81/2 (since half of damage is reduced by default by Battle Spirit) which results in 40 or so 'stamina recovery' from that set before mitigations:





To note, the tooltip damage (whatever your given build would put it at) results in being lower due to our own 'in Battle Spirit' wep/spell damage reduction (20% on our passive to 10%) which means that because these proc sets scale exclusively off of wep/spell, the tooltip itself would be EVEN LOWER (by a noticeable margin) while in PvP also.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'd need to double check this but I assume mylenne's generates 35 fury every 10 seconds with the werewolf passive.

When not using Hircine's rage & Mylenne's it will takes about 40s of actively using abilies on cooldown to generate enough fury to activate Rampage.

Using Mylenne's should take you 35 seconds to build your fury. Which basically takes you from 50% uptime of Rampage to 62.5% uptime when chaining it, as you can gain fury while rampage is active. Essentially a reduction of 25% in downtime which is actually pretty nice for the other benefits it grants (especially in pve land).

This stam return is horrendous. Constant parsing resulted in 81 stam per second (or 162 'stam recov') on a straight parse.

Obviously it's based on 'damage done' but against players... the tooltip is halfed (as half of its damage or so has an 'OUT of Battle Spirit' condition), the tooltip is halfed again due to Battle Spirit, and players tend to build SIGNIFICANTLY more mitigation than the average add.

So before even accounting for other players' mitigation, the stam return (which is based off 'damage done') is 162/2 (since half of set damage locked behind 'OUT of Battle Spirit') which equals 81/2 (since half of damage is reduced by default by Battle Spirit) which results in 40 or so 'stamina recovery' from that set before mitigations:





To note, the tooltip damage (whatever your given build would put it at) results in being lower due to our own 'in Battle Spirit' wep/spell damage reduction (20% on our passive to 10%) which means that because these proc sets scale exclusively off of wep/spell, the tooltip itself would be EVEN LOWER (by a noticeable margin) while in PvP also.

Ran some quick tests found some interesting interactions, first note is it looks like the werewolf fury passive is functional however the tooltip for Mylenne's is actually only 15 without the passive applying. Thus 25 fury.

Regularly weaving LAs with abilities this is the time it takes to get rampage ready:

Rip and Tear spam: 45 seconds (44% Rampage uptime)
Rip and Tear + Mylenne's: 42 seconds (48% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage: 33 Seconds (60% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Mylenne's: 28 seconds (71% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage x2: 28 seconds (71% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Mylenne's+ Hircine's Rage x2: 25 seconds (80% Rampage Uptime)
Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage spam: 23 seconds. (88% Rampage Uptime)
Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage spam + Mylenne's: 20s (100% Rampage uptime aka werewolf pinatas mode!)

35 fury would go a lot farther than the current 25. We can see it is pulling roughy 3 seconds off due to when it procs within the cadence and biggest swing in uptime comes from pinata mode or standard offensive rotation. Uptime would be under ideal conditions in a fight while chaining Rampage while available.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'd need to double check this but I assume mylenne's generates 35 fury every 10 seconds with the werewolf passive.

When not using Hircine's rage & Mylenne's it will takes about 40s of actively using abilies on cooldown to generate enough fury to activate Rampage.

Using Mylenne's should take you 35 seconds to build your fury. Which basically takes you from 50% uptime of Rampage to 62.5% uptime when chaining it, as you can gain fury while rampage is active. Essentially a reduction of 25% in downtime which is actually pretty nice for the other benefits it grants (especially in pve land).

This stam return is horrendous. Constant parsing resulted in 81 stam per second (or 162 'stam recov') on a straight parse.

Obviously it's based on 'damage done' but against players... the tooltip is halfed (as half of its damage or so has an 'OUT of Battle Spirit' condition), the tooltip is halfed again due to Battle Spirit, and players tend to build SIGNIFICANTLY more mitigation than the average add.

So before even accounting for other players' mitigation, the stam return (which is based off 'damage done') is 162/2 (since half of set damage locked behind 'OUT of Battle Spirit') which equals 81/2 (since half of damage is reduced by default by Battle Spirit) which results in 40 or so 'stamina recovery' from that set before mitigations:





To note, the tooltip damage (whatever your given build would put it at) results in being lower due to our own 'in Battle Spirit' wep/spell damage reduction (20% on our passive to 10%) which means that because these proc sets scale exclusively off of wep/spell, the tooltip itself would be EVEN LOWER (by a noticeable margin) while in PvP also.

Ran some quick tests found some interesting interactions, first note is it looks like the werewolf fury passive is functional however the tooltip for Mylenne's is actually only 15 without the passive applying. Thus 25 fury.

Regularly weaving LAs with abilities this is the time it takes to get rampage ready:

Rip and Tear spam: 45 seconds (44% Rampage uptime)
Rip and Tear + Mylenne's: 42 seconds (48% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage: 33 Seconds (60% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Mylenne's: 28 seconds (71% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage x2: 28 seconds (71% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Mylenne's+ Hircine's Rage x2: 25 seconds (80% Rampage Uptime)
Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage spam: 23 seconds. (88% Rampage Uptime)
Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage spam + Mylenne's: 20s (100% Rampage uptime aka werewolf pinatas mode!)

35 fury would go a lot farther than the current 25. We can see it is pulling roughy 3 seconds off due to when it procs within the cadence and biggest swing in uptime comes from pinata mode or standard offensive rotation. Uptime would be under ideal conditions in a fight while chaining Rampage while available.

Oh haha- that's interesting then! So the passive is actually affecting the tooltip itself and the 25 is the 'buffed' tooltip for fury. Good to know!

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'd need to double check this but I assume mylenne's generates 35 fury every 10 seconds with the werewolf passive.

When not using Hircine's rage & Mylenne's it will takes about 40s of actively using abilies on cooldown to generate enough fury to activate Rampage.

Using Mylenne's should take you 35 seconds to build your fury. Which basically takes you from 50% uptime of Rampage to 62.5% uptime when chaining it, as you can gain fury while rampage is active. Essentially a reduction of 25% in downtime which is actually pretty nice for the other benefits it grants (especially in pve land).

This stam return is horrendous. Constant parsing resulted in 81 stam per second (or 162 'stam recov') on a straight parse.

Obviously it's based on 'damage done' but against players... the tooltip is halfed (as half of its damage or so has an 'OUT of Battle Spirit' condition), the tooltip is halfed again due to Battle Spirit, and players tend to build SIGNIFICANTLY more mitigation than the average add.

So before even accounting for other players' mitigation, the stam return (which is based off 'damage done') is 162/2 (since half of set damage locked behind 'OUT of Battle Spirit') which equals 81/2 (since half of damage is reduced by default by Battle Spirit) which results in 40 or so 'stamina recovery' from that set before mitigations:





To note, the tooltip damage (whatever your given build would put it at) results in being lower due to our own 'in Battle Spirit' wep/spell damage reduction (20% on our passive to 10%) which means that because these proc sets scale exclusively off of wep/spell, the tooltip itself would be EVEN LOWER (by a noticeable margin) while in PvP also.

Ran some quick tests found some interesting interactions, first note is it looks like the werewolf fury passive is functional however the tooltip for Mylenne's is actually only 15 without the passive applying. Thus 25 fury.

Regularly weaving LAs with abilities this is the time it takes to get rampage ready:

Rip and Tear spam: 45 seconds (44% Rampage uptime)
Rip and Tear + Mylenne's: 42 seconds (48% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage: 33 Seconds (60% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Mylenne's: 28 seconds (71% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage x2: 28 seconds (71% Rampage Uptime)
Rip and Tear + Feral Carnage + Mylenne's+ Hircine's Rage x2: 25 seconds (80% Rampage Uptime)
Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage spam: 23 seconds. (88% Rampage Uptime)
Feral Carnage + Hircine's Rage spam + Mylenne's: 20s (100% Rampage uptime aka werewolf pinatas mode!)

35 fury would go a lot farther than the current 25. We can see it is pulling roughy 3 seconds off due to when it procs within the cadence and biggest swing in uptime comes from pinata mode or standard offensive rotation. Uptime would be under ideal conditions in a fight while chaining Rampage while available.