Suggestion for Major Lack of Werewolf Build Variety: Rework for Shapeshifter's Chain

WuffyCerulei · August 25

I very much feel that Werewolf builds are very limited for pretty much every class outside Nightblade DPS. It's currently viable for Sorcerer DPS, but that's about to neutered big time with the Static Reverberation changes. All that work with the Werewolf rework, for it only to be really viable on one class and one role? Six out of seven classes to be significantly weaker than Nightblade Werewolf. So I have an idea: reworking Shapeshifter's Chain to open up Werewolf to the other classes and give people even more freedom for builds.

Here's the original Shapeshifter's Chain:

Shapeshifter's Chain
(1 item) Reduce the cost of your Transformation Ultimate and Werewolf abilities by 15%. While transformed, increase your Maximum Health, Stamina, and Magicka by 1707.

Here's the rework idea:

Shapeshifter's Chain
(1 item)
While in Werewolf form, your Werewolf abilities now count as Class Skills. The Skill type is based on your character's base class. Subclassing does not influence the Skill types. The skills also do not benefit from passives based on skills slotted from certain skill lines unless otherwise stated. Increases the cost of Werewolf Transformation by 15%.
If you are an Arcanist, you will generate a Crux for every Blood Fury stack you gain (up to 3), and Brutal Carnage from Pounce and morphs will consume them for a 10% damage increase for each Crux consumed.
If you are a Sorcerer, any Bleed Damage from Light Attacks, Light Attack Bleeds, and Werewolf abilities are now considered Shock Damage and will proc Concussion instead of Hemorrhaging.
If you are a Dragonknight, Gnash and its morphs are also considered an Ardent Flame ability and the first hit of the skill does Flame Damage instead of Physical.
If you are a Templar, Roar and morphs will cast Sacred Ground on you for 20 seconds, and Rending Claws and morphs are considered Dawn's Wrath skills.
If you are a Nightblade, Rending Claws and morphs will gain 10% extra damage and apply the Sundered Status effect if hitting the enemy from the flank.
If you are a Warden, any Bleed Damage from Light Attacks, Light Attack Bleeds, and Werewolf abilities are now considered Frost Damage and will proc Chilled instead of Hemorrhaging.
If you are a Necromancer, you automatically cast a Detonating Siphon when you cast Gnash and morphs. This can only happen once every 5 seconds and if there is a consumable corpse nearby.

I really took into consideration what each class plays into, as well as what the two roles Werewolf can be (DPS and tank) would need for possible builds to work well. I did consult some friends who play more classes and build than I usually do to get more insight on what would work well for each class's buff without them being too powerful in PVP.
Although I'm still considering an extra stipulation for Sorcerers that have Battle Spirit active to keep Static Reverberation builds from being too powerful as well, as that's a big reason why Static Reverb is getting nerfed in the first place.

So with this suggested rework, this Mythic could really open up Werewolf for other classes, as well as more builds than JUST Nightblade DPS. I, and I know many other people, find Werewolf to be fun to play, but it's very much pinned into a small amount of good builds in PVE and PVP. Hopefully ZOS actually takes this idea into consideration...!

And of course, feedback and constructive criticism is welcome. Please keep it civil and actually helpful.

Note: I am seeing that the cost increase should instead be cost decrease, and honestly? Yeah, I agree.
Also going to say that please keep in mind that this isn’t designed JUST for PVP. PVP gripes are perfectly fine to address, just saying that PVE was a bit more on my mind when thinking of the rework.

Turtle_Bot · August 26

Definitely an interesting idea to think about. Taking some limited aspects of the base class for some small additions and unique options for WW at the cost of taking up the mythic slot for another mythic that would be more stat dense.

The transform cost reduction could probably stay as a reduction instead of an increase though (especially for berserker form).

An idea for Sorc Wolf instead of just procs concussed, could be to tie it to the percent bonuses against high health targets and extra procs on low health targets, e.g.:
If you are a Sorcerer, your powers flow into your WW form empowering damage done by 1% for every 20% health your target has. As the target gets weaker, your ability to focus this power into raw bursts of energy increases, causing any Bleed Damage from Light Attacks and Light Attack Bleeds to now also have a small chance to proc Concussion with a 1s cooldown. (5% base chance + 1% chance for each 10% missing health your target has)

It's 5% bonus damage done on a target at max health, which isn't a lot but it will be noticeable, like a mini version of or not to the Amplitude passive or the twilight tormentor pet's active ability.
The Concussed proc chance is 15% chance at 0% percent health, so not guaranteed but should be fairly reliable with the light attacks and bleed ticks.
I did also remove WW abilities themselves as a way to proc concussed mostly for balancing, although with the cooldown it might be ok to keep this since it is only a chance and not guaranteed and it is hard capped to one concussed proc per GCD no matter how many instances of damage there are. This would be the main area for balancing though depending if the rest of the effect is fine as is, too strong, or not strong enough.

acanca · August 26

If you are a Warden, any Bleed Damage from Light Attacks, Light Attack Bleeds, and Werewolf abilities are now considered Frost Damage and will proc Chilled instead of Hemorrhaging.
This is overpowered with the increased chill damage and the 20% major brittle that you can now keep up without the serpent cheese.

If you are a Templar, Roar and morphs will cast Sacred Ground on you for 20 seconds, and Rending Claws and morphs are considered Dawn's Wrath skills. This is partly redundant with class masteries, the 3k armor you gain by them counting as dawns wrath abilities basically does not matter and the ia set is basically irrelevant.

If you are an Arcanist, you will generate a Crux for every Blood Fury stack you gain (up to 3), and Brutal Carnage from Pounce and morphs will consume them for a 10% damage increase for each Crux consumed.

This one is actually interesting, the effect by itself sucks ofcourse. But it would allow you to use arcanist class masteries fully without detransforming that you cannot currently do.

Overall, you are adding another variable to what is already proving very hard to balance. WW if anything needs to be removed from class masteries pool and get its own class masteries in order to simplify balancing.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · August 26

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

o_Primate_o · August 26

i like your ideas but that'd be one heck of a tooltip.
i think if they just change the ulti cost for favor of maybe something like every n seconds gain one blood fury and x ulti when in combat and y ulti out of combat is much more realistic.

Wuuffyy · August 26

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Because just like Oakensoul before, Shapeshifter’s Chain is quickly becoming the only mythic/monster that is truly viable in PvP for werewolf. This especially if you aren’t trying to tank both survivability through health and damage (proc sets, etc.) just to make it to Rampage.

I’d appreciate it if it kept the cost reduction with the flavor though. Clearly werewolf now leans heavily on this mythic’s cost reduction. Obviously, could easily lose the extra resources though in werewolf in the case of a change like this.

Arunei · August 26

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

Bushido2513 · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

madmufffin · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

Vamp concept as a whole needs a ton of love. A massive rework, mythic, sets, etc. are very much needed.

Bushido2513 · August 26

madmufffin wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

Vamp concept as a whole needs a ton of love. A massive rework, mythic, sets, etc. are very much needed.

Their sets are some of the most horrific thematic sets I've ever seen.

Ww hide at least does something generally useful. Vampire cloak isn't even worth a second.

Ww even has themed damage sets that work better inside the theme of ww.

Vamp has zero utility in sets.

Anyways I'll save that for a vamp thread because that's a book of trash.

I just mentioned it because if we talk about reworking the chain we need to give it more towards shapeshifters in general.

Or just make it ww only and rename to dog collar or hellhound's leash and call it a day.

madmufffin · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

Vamp concept as a whole needs a ton of love. A massive rework, mythic, sets, etc. are very much needed.

Their sets are some of the most horrific thematic sets I've ever seen.

Ww hide at least does something generally useful. Vampire cloak isn't even worth a second.

Ww even has themed damage sets that work better inside the theme of ww.

Vamp has zero utility in sets.

Anyways I'll save that for a vamp thread because that's a book of trash.

I just mentioned it because if we talk about reworking the chain we need to give it more towards shapeshifters in general.

Or just make it ww only and rename to dog collar or hellhound's leash and call it a day.

Prior to the monstrous overreaction nerfs from this PTS cycle, the WW rework was really well done with attention to detail in a lot of aspects including the update to Savage Werewolf. Hopefully that is the level we can expect as game mechanisms beyond just the class level get refreshed. A good vamp line would be such a nice value add.

Wuuffyy · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

Vamp concept as a whole needs a ton of love. A massive rework, mythic, sets, etc. are very much needed.

Their sets are some of the most horrific thematic sets I've ever seen.

Ww hide at least does something generally useful. Vampire cloak isn't even worth a second.

Ww even has themed damage sets that work better inside the theme of ww.

Vamp has zero utility in sets.

Anyways I'll save that for a vamp thread because that's a book of trash.

I just mentioned it because if we talk about reworking the chain we need to give it more towards shapeshifters in general.

Or just make it ww only and rename to dog collar or hellhound's leash and call it a day.

Werewolf hide provided nothing for werewolf prior to the rework.

Savage werewolf wasn’t even a ‘werewolf set’.

I don’t know why you’d request these things here when you’d request nerfs and claim vampire is ‘not a skill line’ should it ever be reworked and be made more viable.

Anyone providing data saying a set should be reworked or that it ‘doesn’t provide enough’ would likely be met with ‘why does it help them in the first place?’.

Shapeshifter’s didn’t use to have the cost reduction for werewolf abilities (non-ult) before, if I remember right. However, it was added because werewolf functions drastically differently from the Vampire Lord and Goliath form transformations and needed something that was more fitting of being in form.

Bushido2513 · August 26

madmufffin wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

Vamp concept as a whole needs a ton of love. A massive rework, mythic, sets, etc. are very much needed.

Their sets are some of the most horrific thematic sets I've ever seen.

Ww hide at least does something generally useful. Vampire cloak isn't even worth a second.

Ww even has themed damage sets that work better inside the theme of ww.

Vamp has zero utility in sets.

Anyways I'll save that for a vamp thread because that's a book of trash.

I just mentioned it because if we talk about reworking the chain we need to give it more towards shapeshifters in general.

Or just make it ww only and rename to dog collar or hellhound's leash and call it a day.

Prior to the monstrous overreaction nerfs from this PTS cycle, the WW rework was really well done with attention to detail in a lot of aspects including the update to Savage Werewolf. Hopefully that is the level we can expect as game mechanisms beyond just the class level get refreshed. A good vamp line would be such a nice value add.

Man don't get my hopes up! Not the I'm a big vamp fan but if you could actually get a vamp form that lasted with reworked skills it would be amazing as a fusion of lore and gameplay.

I think it should be the situation where you can go into vamp form at will like ww and take full advantage of powers and weaknesses.

Then at least they could have a more uniform platform for the two and just be cool one bars with complete kits and then shapeshifter chain would be more adaptable to both.

Bushido2513 · August 26

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

Vamp concept as a whole needs a ton of love. A massive rework, mythic, sets, etc. are very much needed.

Their sets are some of the most horrific thematic sets I've ever seen.

Ww hide at least does something generally useful. Vampire cloak isn't even worth a second.

Ww even has themed damage sets that work better inside the theme of ww.

Vamp has zero utility in sets.

Anyways I'll save that for a vamp thread because that's a book of trash.

I just mentioned it because if we talk about reworking the chain we need to give it more towards shapeshifters in general.

Or just make it ww only and rename to dog collar or hellhound's leash and call it a day.

Werewolf hide provided nothing for werewolf prior to the rework.

Savage werewolf wasn’t even a ‘werewolf set’.

I don’t know why you’d request these things here when you’d request nerfs and claim vampire is ‘not a skill line’ should it ever be reworked and be made more viable.

Anyone providing data saying a set should be reworked or that it ‘doesn’t provide enough’ would likely be met with ‘why does it help them in the first place?’.

Shapeshifter’s didn’t use to have the cost reduction for werewolf abilities (non-ult) before, if I remember right. However, it was added because werewolf functions drastically differently from the Vampire Lord and Goliath form transformations and needed something that was more fitting of being in form.

I support the reason ww had to be nerfed. I have high confidence that the actual nerf values need reworking.

I'm fine if they carefully adjust the nerf or even undo it in some specific ways. But it needs to be very careful so that I and a lot of others can have a chance to enjoy pvp again. Obviously dk is an issue and there are many other issues but it is what it is.

Now why would I be ok with sets or mythics that benefit ww you ask?

Because of the reason above, I don't need ww, gone, I just need it balanced. What that means, well that's something we all have to see post nerf.

I want ww to have tools to compete and do the same build and theory crafting that I and others enjoy.

We have class sets in IA so I'm ok with having wolf and vamp centric sets in other areas of the games

By the way yes I understand that savage werewolf isn't actually a werewolf set, there's no such thing. There are just sets that compliment werewolf gameplay more than others and that's what I'm referring to.

Wuuffyy · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

By the way yes I understand that savage werewolf isn't actually a werewolf set, there's no such thing. There are just sets that compliment werewolf gameplay more than others and that's what I'm referring to.

The things before this snippet are contrary to everything else you've stated prior. The 'goalpost' has been moved so many times, it's unbelievable. In addition, Savage Werewolf was not even a set that 'complimented werewolf' before this patch. In other words, it was no different than 'Null Arca' for werewolf prior to its rework.

Arunei · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Bushido2513 · August 26

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

By the way yes I understand that savage werewolf isn't actually a werewolf set, there's no such thing. There are just sets that compliment werewolf gameplay more than others and that's what I'm referring to.

The things before this snippet are contrary to everything else you've stated prior. The 'goalpost' has been moved so many times, it's unbelievable. In addition, Savage Werewolf was not even a set that 'complimented werewolf' before this patch. In other words, it was no different than 'Null Arca' for werewolf prior to its rework.

I get that you're looking at this objectively but a nerf conversation and a buff conversation are two different conversations.

In a nerf conversation it's a bit different because we need to take away something and that's not really a fun subject.

This conversation is about adding utility and fun and looking at what players have a vision for so it's a more light-hearted conversation.

In general I'm just saying savage werewolf helps werewolves more than vampire cloak ever helped vampires. It's just a small comparison while we talk about things that can add to the game that could make it overall more fun.

Context matters

Wuuffyy · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

By the way yes I understand that savage werewolf isn't actually a werewolf set, there's no such thing. There are just sets that compliment werewolf gameplay more than others and that's what I'm referring to.

The things before this snippet are contrary to everything else you've stated prior. The 'goalpost' has been moved so many times, it's unbelievable. In addition, Savage Werewolf was not even a set that 'complimented werewolf' before this patch. In other words, it was no different than 'Null Arca' for werewolf prior to its rework.

I get that you're looking at this objectively but a nerf conversation and a buff conversation are two different conversations.

In a nerf conversation it's a bit different because we need to take away something and that's not really a fun subject.

This conversation is about adding utility and fun and looking at what players have a vision for so it's a more light-hearted conversation.

In general I'm just saying savage werewolf helps werewolves more than vampire cloak ever helped vampires. It's just a small comparison while we talk about things that can add to the game that could make it overall more fun.

Context matters

You were consistently stating ‘werewolf isn’t a class, it’s a skill line’ in a strange attempt to invalidate the playstyle any time data was presented.

Care to educate me how this has anything to do with buff/nerf or how them ever buffing and reworking vampire to a viable level wouldn’t result in that same conversation from your end?

I’m just applying the same objective logic here.

Bushido2513 · August 26

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Wuuffyy · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Bushido2513 · August 26

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

Wuuffyy · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

Bushido2513 · August 26

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

Wuuffyy · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

It is not possible to kill people remotely consistently as a pressure playstyle if everyone is given CoF and CoE but the pressure playstyle itself.

ZOS also has a nasty habit of dumpstering werewolf, ignoring feedback, and moving on to literally anything else (and no, I’m not just talking about this patch that happened 3 months after the rework).

I, in fact, expect even more nerfs next PTS without any compensation. I imagine those nerfs will primarily center around HPS based on health-based healing as not much has changed in that department if you run in a group (a ‘pack’ if you will) with a healer providing damage/sustain. They may even focus on the still ‘cheap’ 1865 stam Rip and Tear; these changes without significant compensation would seal the deal in PvP and make werewolf quite literally worse than it ever has been there.

At least werewolf had more damage and max stamina prior to build around the lack of sustain. Sure, it wasn’t ‘infinite sustain’ or ‘high health’ (that was an option but you were simply a health tank) but the killing potential was there prior, especially before the DK rework- at least in combination with procs of course.

Arunei · August 26

WW-themed Sets are WW Sets. They specifically have bonuses that do not apply to other builds. I fail to see how Salvation isn't a WW Set when it ONLY works with WW. No other playstyle will benefit from it, no build NOT a WW will benefit from it. HotW only grants the triple Ult Gen to WW, and again, no one else is going to be using the Set for the double Ult Gen because that prevents using any NUMBER of more useful Sets, as Ult Gen isn't that hard to source. Savage WW only gives its unique 6% damage buff to WWs. SC's main buff, the only reason anyone is using it, only goes to WW. Why would someone using Scion or Goliath use it for a piddly stat boost when any other number of Mythics give FAR better bonuses? Again, these Sets providing certain bonuses to other builds (except Salvation) doesn't mean these aren't WW Sets.

And there IS a Vampire Set, too. Vampire Lord's 5-piece bonus ONLY affects Vamp Skill costs and how much Flame damage they take. Which admittedly kind of sucks and Vamp could use more Sets, so could WW. Both of them have unique mechanics that any number of Sets can be built around.

Bushido2513 · August 26

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

It is not possible to kill people remotely consistently as a pressure playstyle if everyone is given CoF and CoE but the pressure playstyle itself.

ZOS also has a nasty habit of dumpstering werewolf, ignoring feedback, and moving on to literally anything else (and no, I’m not just talking about this patch that happened 3 months after the rework).

I, in fact, expect even more nerfs next PTS without any compensation. I imagine those nerfs will primarily center around HPS based on health-based healing as not much has changed in that department if you run in a group (a ‘pack’ if you will) with a healer providing damage/sustain. They may even focus on the still ‘cheap’ 1865 stam Rip and Tear; these changes without significant compensation would seal the deal in PvP and make werewolf quite literally worse than it ever has been there.

At least werewolf had more damage and max stamina prior to build around the lack of sustain. Sure, it wasn’t ‘infinite sustain’ or ‘high health’ (that was an option but you were simply a health tank) but the killing potential was there prior, especially before the DK rework- at least in combination with procs of course.

Not gonna lie, sometimes you straight have to farm potatoes, I've done it when sorc was really in the toilet and sometimes those were all I could kill.

Truth is that you'll all always be able to kill someone even if it's just that you're basically a tank with the ability to get the last hit in or dot then up and fall back to your group.

True it's not reliable and true sometimes you're living off scraps but sometimes you get those experiences where you come out on top as long as you can adjust to on top being what your chosen play style is capable of or rather limited to.

If it was me I'd be out there trying sets and min maxing till I got all the juice I could and running with a group if I absolutely had to. You're certainly not the only one so maybe some like minded individuals could get together and have fun.

Wuuffyy · August 26

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

It is not possible to kill people remotely consistently as a pressure playstyle if everyone is given CoF and CoE but the pressure playstyle itself.

ZOS also has a nasty habit of dumpstering werewolf, ignoring feedback, and moving on to literally anything else (and no, I’m not just talking about this patch that happened 3 months after the rework).

I, in fact, expect even more nerfs next PTS without any compensation. I imagine those nerfs will primarily center around HPS based on health-based healing as not much has changed in that department if you run in a group (a ‘pack’ if you will) with a healer providing damage/sustain. They may even focus on the still ‘cheap’ 1865 stam Rip and Tear; these changes without significant compensation would seal the deal in PvP and make werewolf quite literally worse than it ever has been there.

At least werewolf had more damage and max stamina prior to build around the lack of sustain. Sure, it wasn’t ‘infinite sustain’ or ‘high health’ (that was an option but you were simply a health tank) but the killing potential was there prior, especially before the DK rework- at least in combination with procs of course.

Not gonna lie, sometimes you straight have to farm potatoes, I've done it when sorc was really in the toilet and sometimes those were all I could kill.

Truth is that you'll all always be able to kill someone even if it's just that you're basically a tank with the ability to get the last hit in or dot then up and fall back to your group.

True it's not reliable and true sometimes you're living off scraps but sometimes you get those experiences where you come out on top as long as you can adjust to on top being what your chosen play style is capable of or rather limited to.

If it was me I'd be out there trying sets and min maxing till I got all the juice I could and running with a group if I absolutely had to. You're certainly not the only one so maybe some like minded individuals could get together and have fun.

I have done this for ages, I’m tired Bushido.

This was OUR rework. And the n—- was dropped in 3 months time. And the following one will be in another 3 months after.

They (ZOS) were so clearly hesitant on nerfing both CoF (20% lol) and CoE (25% lol) which tells me their vision involves keeping ‘infinite sustain’ for all but werewolf. Every class will become stronger with its rework and I imagine should they adjust masteries like promised before all classes are reworked, they will add exceptions for werewolf on anything remotely strong.

It’s downhill from here.

I’m telling you, with what’s on the horizon and a couple more nerfs down the line- it can no longer be done even by the best of players. If I continue next patch, I will run Shapeshifter’s, Imperial, and even 5 med if I have to. At this point, I may as well run from any DK and kite any sorc until I have Rampage if they’re remotely competent because they’ll surely have all the pressure on me and I’ll have even less pressure (+ steam) against them.

Bushido2513 · August 27

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

It is not possible to kill people remotely consistently as a pressure playstyle if everyone is given CoF and CoE but the pressure playstyle itself.

ZOS also has a nasty habit of dumpstering werewolf, ignoring feedback, and moving on to literally anything else (and no, I’m not just talking about this patch that happened 3 months after the rework).

I, in fact, expect even more nerfs next PTS without any compensation. I imagine those nerfs will primarily center around HPS based on health-based healing as not much has changed in that department if you run in a group (a ‘pack’ if you will) with a healer providing damage/sustain. They may even focus on the still ‘cheap’ 1865 stam Rip and Tear; these changes without significant compensation would seal the deal in PvP and make werewolf quite literally worse than it ever has been there.

At least werewolf had more damage and max stamina prior to build around the lack of sustain. Sure, it wasn’t ‘infinite sustain’ or ‘high health’ (that was an option but you were simply a health tank) but the killing potential was there prior, especially before the DK rework- at least in combination with procs of course.

Not gonna lie, sometimes you straight have to farm potatoes, I've done it when sorc was really in the toilet and sometimes those were all I could kill.

Truth is that you'll all always be able to kill someone even if it's just that you're basically a tank with the ability to get the last hit in or dot then up and fall back to your group.

True it's not reliable and true sometimes you're living off scraps but sometimes you get those experiences where you come out on top as long as you can adjust to on top being what your chosen play style is capable of or rather limited to.

If it was me I'd be out there trying sets and min maxing till I got all the juice I could and running with a group if I absolutely had to. You're certainly not the only one so maybe some like minded individuals could get together and have fun.

I have done this for ages, I’m tired Bushido.

This was OUR rework. And the n—- was dropped in 3 months time. And the following one will be in another 3 months after.

They (ZOS) were so clearly hesitant on nerfing both CoF (20% lol) and CoE (25% lol) which tells me their vision involves keeping ‘infinite sustain’ for all but werewolf. Every class will become stronger with its rework and I imagine should they adjust masteries like promised before all classes are reworked, they will add exceptions for werewolf on anything remotely strong.

It’s downhill from here.

I’m telling you, with what’s on the horizon and a couple more nerfs down the line- it can no longer be done even by the best of players. If I continue next patch, I will run Shapeshifter’s, Imperial, and even 5 med if I have to. At this point, I may as well run from any DK and kite any sorc until I have Rampage if they’re remotely competent because they’ll surely have all the pressure on me and I’ll have even less pressure (+ steam) against them.

Yeah I can understand your position and it's true wolf has been in a bad state much longer than it has been good.

If the game ever stops being fun then it might be time for a break or switch to something more playable. I'm on somewhat of a break till the new patch hits.

There was a person I used to see all the time playing wolf but I think even after years they got to a point where it wasn't fun though I think they came back this patch with a new name

Anyways I get it. Not sure what I would do if they nerfed steak into oblivion. I'd probably still play sorc but not sure for for long.

Hopefully wolf won't actually be left to rot but it's hard to say what they are going to do next given all their internal changes and already rocky reputation.

Chrlynsch · August 27

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

Vampire is nothing currently. Yes ww is getting nerfed but at least you can play wolf still and somewhat have an experience.

Vamp has one spammable and one passive which keep it from being completely useless other than rp. People barely use the ult here and there.

Two things are true. It makes more sense to currently finish off the ww project with all that has been invested. Vampire needs way more help than ww as it is pretty much has no cohesion and fairly minimal utility

"Play werewolf and have an experience"

Play a dot pressure build with no sustain into infinite sustain CoF and high sustain CoE along with high HPS and the occasional clap-spam templars bringing purify along future reworks and hopefully mastery updates on the horizon. Yea...

Not to mention 'groups' of players can now have another unique 3,000 free pen and 3,000 free mitigation on me. 0.o

But werewolf cannot even have minor resolve (of course).

At least you can still be a DK or a sorc on a vampire. Blood for blood is also generally a good spam able for PvP even if you don't engage with the rest of the kit.

I guess I'm thinking positively here when I say have an experience. I'm used to playing what I like because I like it, not because it's any good at all really.

Sorc is much better now but I'd still play it even if it became trash again and I'd make it work as I have before or sometimes just take a break till the game gets better. Zos is getting better but they have a long way to go and a long history of disappointments among achievements. I accept what the game is and I forge ahead and find enjoyment where I can.

I'm not saying ignore what sucks or don't ask for change but if all you're going to focus on is what's been taken away then you night have trouble enjoying any kind of path forward.

In the bad sorc times I had to spend a ton of time to find a build I could finally play. Even then I didn't really do a whole lot of damage so I did the best I could and made it work as best I could to get to an enjoyable point.

Maybe ww is just going back in the dumpster but if you really enjoy it then I think you can find a way to play it and get something out of it.

It is not possible to kill people remotely consistently as a pressure playstyle if everyone is given CoF and CoE but the pressure playstyle itself.

ZOS also has a nasty habit of dumpstering werewolf, ignoring feedback, and moving on to literally anything else (and no, I’m not just talking about this patch that happened 3 months after the rework).

I, in fact, expect even more nerfs next PTS without any compensation. I imagine those nerfs will primarily center around HPS based on health-based healing as not much has changed in that department if you run in a group (a ‘pack’ if you will) with a healer providing damage/sustain. They may even focus on the still ‘cheap’ 1865 stam Rip and Tear; these changes without significant compensation would seal the deal in PvP and make werewolf quite literally worse than it ever has been there.

At least werewolf had more damage and max stamina prior to build around the lack of sustain. Sure, it wasn’t ‘infinite sustain’ or ‘high health’ (that was an option but you were simply a health tank) but the killing potential was there prior, especially before the DK rework- at least in combination with procs of course.

Not gonna lie, sometimes you straight have to farm potatoes, I've done it when sorc was really in the toilet and sometimes those were all I could kill.

Truth is that you'll all always be able to kill someone even if it's just that you're basically a tank with the ability to get the last hit in or dot then up and fall back to your group.

True it's not reliable and true sometimes you're living off scraps but sometimes you get those experiences where you come out on top as long as you can adjust to on top being what your chosen play style is capable of or rather limited to.

If it was me I'd be out there trying sets and min maxing till I got all the juice I could and running with a group if I absolutely had to. You're certainly not the only one so maybe some like minded individuals could get together and have fun.

I have done this for ages, I’m tired Bushido.

This was OUR rework. And the n—- was dropped in 3 months time. And the following one will be in another 3 months after.

They (ZOS) were so clearly hesitant on nerfing both CoF (20% lol) and CoE (25% lol) which tells me their vision involves keeping ‘infinite sustain’ for all but werewolf. Every class will become stronger with its rework and I imagine should they adjust masteries like promised before all classes are reworked, they will add exceptions for werewolf on anything remotely strong.

It’s downhill from here.

I’m telling you, with what’s on the horizon and a couple more nerfs down the line- it can no longer be done even by the best of players. If I continue next patch, I will run Shapeshifter’s, Imperial, and even 5 med if I have to. At this point, I may as well run from any DK and kite any sorc until I have Rampage if they’re remotely competent because they’ll surely have all the pressure on me and I’ll have even less pressure (+ steam) against them.

Yeah I can understand your position and it's true wolf has been in a bad state much longer than it has been good.

If the game ever stops being fun then it might be time for a break or switch to something more playable. I'm on somewhat of a break till the new patch hits.

There was a person I used to see all the time playing wolf but I think even after years they got to a point where it wasn't fun though I think they came back this patch with a new name

Anyways I get it. Not sure what I would do if they nerfed steak into oblivion. I'd probably still play sorc but not sure for for long.

Hopefully wolf won't actually be left to rot but it's hard to say what they are going to do next given all their internal changes and already rocky reputation.

I know I took a break for a few years when werewolf went neglected as well as with work & family. It was great to comeback to a reworked wolf as it was fresh to play, happy to see it get a place in some endgame comps too. I think with a couple tweaks and access to some burst it could become really engaging to play with in all aspects of the game.

twing1_ · August 27

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

They need to give ALL the WW Sets a refresh. Almost none of them actually synergize with WW after the rework, they don't take into account any of WW's new mechanics or anything.

That said, I doubt they'd ever rework SC to work like this. It's overly complex to have a single item need to do checks for both being transformed and seeing what Class your character normally is. It would be easier and more likely to implement something like gaining Fury twice as fast and getting Recovery for all three resources, on top of the cost reduction for WW Skills. That would make it actually worth using come u51.

Other Sets need to be reworked to take into account mechs like Rampage, Fury, Blood Hunger, and so on. Like make one so that having any stacks of Blood Hunger increase your Armor and Health by X amount. Make one that for every 100 Fury you have, your damage increases by like 2% when you're a Berserker and the cost to stay in WW goes down by 2%(to encourage people actually use it since most everyone take Pack Leader to not worry about form sustain). Make a Set that whenever you use Hircine's (either morph) you give your group an unnamed Health Recovery buff of like 3.5k for six seconds or something (it would essentially give WW a HoT).

They can do so much with the WW Sets to give back some of what they've taken, but also just to actually reflect the thematic changes and such they made in U50.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

So what if you're not a Werewolf?

Why is the Chain of the Vampire and Chain of the Bone Goliath leads for it? you know it also effects Bone Goliath and Blood Scions forms right?

Uh, it's the WW Mythic? Even if the stat increases apply to other "transformations", the main part of it only affects WWs. If you aren't a WW there are plenty of other Mythics to use.

Those are also both timed transformations that only last for 20 seconds. You're getting little value using it on Vamps or Necros just to get a dinky stat increase for 20 seconds every few minutes. I don't see anyone who isn't a WW using it regardless of whether it gets changed considering most any other Mythic would be more useful.

It's not exactly a ww mythic so much as we benefits the most from it due to maintained and possibly more frequent shape changes.

But it is an oddly designed mythic because it's like they said it's a ww mythic but let's add in a note for transformations just because.

It's not mentioned here but since vamp doesn't get a mythic it might be cool if the mythic also had some real impact on other shapeshifters like maybe even just extending their transformations as well as making them cheaper?

Obviously there are some balance questions there but I'd be willing to give Goliath and such 20 or so more seconds since they would be giving up a mythic slot.

But it is a WW Mythic. Its main buff ONLY applies to WW. I don't know how they've coded the game but I'd be willing to bet that the WW, Scion, and Goliath all have a "Transformed" tag, which would be the reason the "When Transformed" part also applies to the latter two. Not because it's specifically meant to work with them, but as a side effect from them using the Transformed tag for the stat bonus. It was probably easier to do it that way than to attach the increase to WW itself. But if the Mythic as a whole wasn't meant to be a WW-specific Mythic, they would have just made the whole thing "When Transformed your Skills cost 15% less and you get <insert stat increases>".

And yes, there ARE WW Sets. Savage WW as it is now grants you a 6% damage boost when transformed. There are other sets that give the same or roughly the same 2-4 piece bonuses and also do bleed damage (or increase it) without being in WW form. Examples are Aegis Caller and Blooddrinker, People not playing WW would more than likely pick those, but they wouldn't get the 6% damage increase. Salvation LITERALLY only works if you're in WW form or transforming to it. Hide of the WW grants 6 Ult every 5 seconds as long as you're taking damage, but what build is going to give up a whole 5-piece Set to get some extra Ult when there are easier ways of increasing Ult Gen? The tripled Ult Gen only applies if you're in WW form.

Things that might inadvertently offer part of their bonuses to other playstyles doesn't mean they aren't WW Sets.

@Wuuffyy
SC didn't get any changes in U50, it did indeed work the same way it does now. Which made no sense considering how WW Skills were so cheap and they could have updated it to help generate Fury or something, but they didn't do squat with it. I'd say with WW sustain being a problem in U51 it might get more use, but honestly something like Roska the Warped would probably work better because it gives massive sustain to all your stats, including Magicka (for using WW heal and Stam restore):

They REALLY do need to update SC though. Make the stat increase a bit higher, give it some sustain. It's a Mythic for crying out loud. If they need to reign it in some then slightly reduce the cost reductions to 12% or something, but at least make it worthwhile for WW to slot it.

Ok before we get too into the weeds we should be clear. There are no ww sets, there are no vamp sets. There are only sets that are more or less favorable or at least claim to be, to ww and vamp.

Even if it gives a bonus to that skill line, that's so it is.

I say this because zos has clarified what sets are only to be worn in specific conditions. None of these are that because they have no condition in which they can't be worn if you aren't specifically a ww or vamp.

So shapeshifter is not a ww mythic, it's a mythic that if beneficial to werewolves and to a lesser degree transformations.

I only bring this up because then when talking about changing it, we're not talking about making a ww mythic but more so taking a mythic and making it highly beneficial to ww, which is why I brought up instead making it beneficial to all transformations.

Not because I don't want ww to enjoy it. I just don't see why we could couldn't make it better overall , with possibly a bit more incentive to ww. Then everyone gets something.

Vampire doesn’t lock you into a singular skill line and a playstyle. Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now especially given that if it isn’t supported post-rework then it will inevitably fall into obscurity the same as before.

If they were to rework Shapeshifter’s, it should primarily focus on werewolf for now and if they rework vampire then they can consider adding to animations and unique tooltips at that point. Right now, if they’re relegating people to Shapeshifter’s if they wish to continue playing werewolf in PvP, it could use the flavor now or at some point soon- not when they decide they want to push through the effort for both vampire and werewolf.

Side note- this rework has shown me there is almost no point in looking forward to a Vampire rework, if it’s remotely useable- I now know what to expect unfortunately.

"Werewolf needs far more help than Vampire right now..."

Are you serious?

Where would you rank WW in PvP rankings? Top 3 specs? Bottom 3 specs? middle of the pack?

Where would you rank Vampire in PvP rankings?

I know you're the big Werewolf guy around here, but I'm honestly curious to know if you have any perspective on the status quo outside of your niche.

Wuuffyy · August 27

You must be new to the game.

Vampire = run all skills lines and classes.

Werewolf= werewolf abilities and werewolf abilities only.

Severe werewolf sustain nerfs in addition to pure sorc essentially being rendered invalid for werewolf non-competitive for DPS.

It may not fulfill your ‘power fantasy’ but at the very least you can run stage 3 vamp for undeath (if you choose) and/or blood for blood which is strong and adds a lot of additional variety in a build along with being a DK and/sorc so that you’re competitive.

Let me know when werewolf can do this to bridge the gap. Otherwise, feel free to tell
me how a werewolf with similar sustain and less damage than before the rework does better generally after these nerfs.

Before you bring up PvE, every other tooltip is adjusted for PvE. The values aren’t the same there in terms of ‘DPS’ either due to split tooltips.