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PvP Has Become Exhausting... along with the state of the game.
AvidNecro
✭✭✭
I think it’s time to be honest about the state of ESO
Right now, the PvP meta has reached a point where I simply don’t enjoy playing anymore. Between (DK, Sorc and WW), dominating so much of the current environment, the variety and creativity that used to make ESO PvP special feels like it went from disappearing to nonexistent. Don't even get me started on Necro... This isn’t about losing a few matches or complaining because a particular build is strong. Every MMO has a meta. The problem is when the gap between the strongest options and everything else becomes so large that players feel pressured into running the same handful of builds just to remain competitive. And now, its not even the build. Its the class, and with no change until 2027, what's the point in continuing to play? The community has been talking about this repeatedly. Recent ESO forum discussions have specifically called out the combination of high damage, enormous health pools, sustain, mobility, and survivability on Werewolf, while other players have described DK's as capable of absorbing huge amounts of pressure before turning around and delivering massive burst. Lets not pretend the recent DK nerfs and increase cost of skills to WW is going to fix the problem. Sorcs still exist, and WW sorcs, are ALSO going to carry this nonsense until 2027. And that’s the problem: When the answer to PvP becomes “play DK, Sorc, or Werewolf—or accept that you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage,” something has gone wrong with the combat dev team. I also think the Werewolf situation is particularly frustrating because there was an opportunity to make the rework exciting and competitive without simply creating another extremely oppressive PvP option. Even the official forum discussion around the Werewolf changes has contained significant debate over whether the kit is actually healthy for PvP. At the same time, DK has remained an enormous part of the conversation surrounding the current PvP meta. There have even been discussions acknowledging that certain subclass skill lines are so powerful that a pure class has difficulty competing with them without being made exceptionally strong itself.
And this is where I think ZOS has potentially shot itself in the foot... ESO lives and dies on player engagement. PvP players need reasons to log in, experiment, build characters, make videos, stream, duel, participate in Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and generally keep the ecosystem alive. How IC remains dead during pop lock hours of Cyro is beyond me... IC is arguably the best PvP zone in the game. Content creators are part of that ecosystem too. When creators stop having fun, they stop creating. And I’m already seeing enough frustration among PvP players and creators that I’m genuinely concerned about what the next six months could look like if the current direction continues. I don't think ZOS is going to suddenly disappear tomorrow, and I’m not claiming that a specific number of players or dollars will be lost. But... I DO BELIEVE... that continuing to let a stale and oppressive PvP meta linger for THAT long, can have a serious impact on engagement, player retention, and the amount of content being produced around the game.
For me personally, I’ve reached my limit. I’m taking a break from ESO PvP until 2027 and exploring some other games I am passionate about. I’ll be stepping away rather than continuing to force myself to play a game mode that I’m no longer enjoying. And I know I’m not the only creator or PvP player feeling this way. There are people who have spent years building communities around ESO PvP, and when those people start walking away, that should be a warning sign. I genuinely hope ZOS proves me wrong. I hope we get a major balance pass that brings the other classes and builds up to a point where they can actually participate AND compete, rather than simply nerfing one dominant build and replacing it with another. Class refresh just isn't an acceptable statement or answer anymore, (If we even get to see that in a foreseeable future). I want to see a PvP environment where you can log onto your favorite class, make an effective build, master its mechanics, and actually feel like you have a chance against the meta without having to abandon the playstyle you enjoy. Or at the very least, make the meta still have a weakness. You used to have to sacrifice something in pvp, sustain... damage... healing... now the only thing you sacrifice is your sanity, unless your main a DK, sorc, or WW.
I’ll see you all in 2027.
Right now, the PvP meta has reached a point where I simply don’t enjoy playing anymore. Between (DK, Sorc and WW), dominating so much of the current environment, the variety and creativity that used to make ESO PvP special feels like it went from disappearing to nonexistent. Don't even get me started on Necro... This isn’t about losing a few matches or complaining because a particular build is strong. Every MMO has a meta. The problem is when the gap between the strongest options and everything else becomes so large that players feel pressured into running the same handful of builds just to remain competitive. And now, its not even the build. Its the class, and with no change until 2027, what's the point in continuing to play? The community has been talking about this repeatedly. Recent ESO forum discussions have specifically called out the combination of high damage, enormous health pools, sustain, mobility, and survivability on Werewolf, while other players have described DK's as capable of absorbing huge amounts of pressure before turning around and delivering massive burst. Lets not pretend the recent DK nerfs and increase cost of skills to WW is going to fix the problem. Sorcs still exist, and WW sorcs, are ALSO going to carry this nonsense until 2027. And that’s the problem: When the answer to PvP becomes “play DK, Sorc, or Werewolf—or accept that you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage,” something has gone wrong with the combat dev team. I also think the Werewolf situation is particularly frustrating because there was an opportunity to make the rework exciting and competitive without simply creating another extremely oppressive PvP option. Even the official forum discussion around the Werewolf changes has contained significant debate over whether the kit is actually healthy for PvP. At the same time, DK has remained an enormous part of the conversation surrounding the current PvP meta. There have even been discussions acknowledging that certain subclass skill lines are so powerful that a pure class has difficulty competing with them without being made exceptionally strong itself.
And this is where I think ZOS has potentially shot itself in the foot... ESO lives and dies on player engagement. PvP players need reasons to log in, experiment, build characters, make videos, stream, duel, participate in Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and generally keep the ecosystem alive. How IC remains dead during pop lock hours of Cyro is beyond me... IC is arguably the best PvP zone in the game. Content creators are part of that ecosystem too. When creators stop having fun, they stop creating. And I’m already seeing enough frustration among PvP players and creators that I’m genuinely concerned about what the next six months could look like if the current direction continues. I don't think ZOS is going to suddenly disappear tomorrow, and I’m not claiming that a specific number of players or dollars will be lost. But... I DO BELIEVE... that continuing to let a stale and oppressive PvP meta linger for THAT long, can have a serious impact on engagement, player retention, and the amount of content being produced around the game.
For me personally, I’ve reached my limit. I’m taking a break from ESO PvP until 2027 and exploring some other games I am passionate about. I’ll be stepping away rather than continuing to force myself to play a game mode that I’m no longer enjoying. And I know I’m not the only creator or PvP player feeling this way. There are people who have spent years building communities around ESO PvP, and when those people start walking away, that should be a warning sign. I genuinely hope ZOS proves me wrong. I hope we get a major balance pass that brings the other classes and builds up to a point where they can actually participate AND compete, rather than simply nerfing one dominant build and replacing it with another. Class refresh just isn't an acceptable statement or answer anymore, (If we even get to see that in a foreseeable future). I want to see a PvP environment where you can log onto your favorite class, make an effective build, master its mechanics, and actually feel like you have a chance against the meta without having to abandon the playstyle you enjoy. Or at the very least, make the meta still have a weakness. You used to have to sacrifice something in pvp, sustain... damage... healing... now the only thing you sacrifice is your sanity, unless your main a DK, sorc, or WW.
I’ll see you all in 2027.
Necromancer Main [PCNA] Follow me on YouTube!
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I see some positive changes coming our way and some much needed buffs. Will it be enough? Possibly, but probably not. The gap between top classes and everything else is definitely going to shrink.1 -
Zallion✭✭✭✭The meta hasn’t been this skewed in a long time. The damage is outrageous, but the sustain is even more so. The three specs that need not invest nearly anything at all into sustain are the top three specs, because they can allocate to their builds elsewhere. HoF and CoE need to be basically halved.
But you’re spot on. This is downright an unacceptable state to leave balance in for that long. And it has, and will continue to, negatively impact player retention. As time goes on, players will further jump on the meta train which is essentially DK or sorc, or eventually stop playing. The concentration of DKs, Sorcs, and WWs is already so high due to that, another 6 months of this it’ll be all you ever see. People won’t play more than half the classes in this game, because those classes can’t hold a candle to what the top 2 can do. A competent, well built player on a DK is out of this world strong.
I can’t say I blame you for needing a hiatus from that, it is frustrating. Entire classes should not feel obsolete. It comes down to whats loaded into the kits that isnt in other class’s kits: sustain, all the delayed burst in the world, mobility, great buff compression, survivability etc.
I’m hopeful that the whip nerfs will at the very least tone things down a little on the DK damage front - I do think it’s an over correction and the problem is more in the sustain. They did a good job redesigning the class, I don’t want to see it nuked necessarily but it is quite obviously overtuned. Sorcs need CoE reeled in, literally halved. WWs, with the changes to their skill costs I can almost live with them being that strong, under the condition they cant perma wolf - but that’s not in the cards anymore really. Make silver shards hit them for like 10x the damage or dawnbreaker pull them out of transformation or something lol idk.
Im hoping they can buff the other classes to bridge the gap. To play like this indefinitely, is not fun. Not a good product, and will have very severe player loss reaching a critical point eventually. Pour every ounce of resources into getting all the refreshes out as fast as possible, polished or not, is the best path. I’d rather everyone be slightly broken with low TTK across the board.
Until then we’re all puppy chow.4 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭✭I still miss all of my DoT builds. Game simply isn't fun right now and I wish DoT builds could be brought back to what they used to be considering in some cases they are the only counter to certain skills (corrorsive, streaking sorcs, etc.) and builds that can't be killed otherwise.
It's unfornate that does not seem to be the case or happening any time soon.3 -
nightbringer1993✭✭✭✭I am, I used to be a necromancer main back when I played and because of these stupid nerfs brought on the class and the crazy buff other classes like DK and sorcerer received. I decided to leave the game too.
The game is currently unplayable for necromancers, and each time people mention skill issue, we ask them to show off their builds where they can take down a warden, sorcerer or DK while playing pure class necro. But nothing is shown.
The worst is that devs do not respond to necromancers threads. There was a thread concerning which class needed more help, necromancer was far ahead, but no answers from devs. People went massively against the blastbone change, and once again we were not being listened, and the change went live resulting in half the necromancers leaving the game and the rest either trying to remain with their class or forced to go on another class.
Strongest classes are being refreshed first while the weakest ones are refreshed last. This class refresh order is completely wrong.
So I prefer to go play other games and have fun rather than staying in the same game and going depressed of seeing other classes being buffed again and again.PC EU2 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭✭nightbringer1993 wrote: »I am, I used to be a necromancer main back when I played and because of these stupid nerfs brought on the class and the crazy buff other classes like DK and sorcerer received. I decided to leave the game too.
The game is currently unplayable for necromancers, and each time people mention skill issue, we ask them to show off their builds where they can take down a warden, sorcerer or DK while playing pure class necro. But nothing is shown.
The worst is that devs do not respond to necromancers threads. There was a thread concerning which class needed more help, necromancer was far ahead, but no answers from devs. People went massively against the blastbone change, and once again we were not being listened, and the change went live resulting in half the necromancers leaving the game and the rest either trying to remain with their class or forced to go on another class.
Strongest classes are being refreshed first while the weakest ones are refreshed last. This class refresh order is completely wrong.
So I prefer to go play other games and have fun rather than staying in the same game and going depressed of seeing other classes being buffed again and again.
I voted necromancer in that thread.
ZOS has a real problem of not listening to input once they decide on a change, no matter how bad it is. Look at templar on PTS right now and balanced warrior / illuminate. NO ONE asked for that change, and ZOS is going to do it anyway.
Instead of just listening to input or saying they've changed their mind, they are going in circles wasting development time trying to "balance" the loss of WD/SD on templar due to the change.
But the problem is that the changes they are doing falls short and aren't equally valuable to every build out there, so it is , in fact a nerf. A conditional buff, where the condition is that you run a specific build or values within it, is a nerf for all other builds that aren't going to fulfill the condition.
Somehow they cannot understand that and continue with the changes anyway. And now, they have it so that you have to slot templar skills to get a fraction of the power you lost back?
Did they not get the memo that templar skills suck after being repeatedly nerfed and never buffed? No one wants to slot those skills because they suck. We don't need to go around and pretend that it isn't the case that each skill line of templar only has 1-2 skills worth actually slotting.
Now, why bring up templar? Because it's literally just like necromancer in many ways: slow, no real usable immobilization, problems building for damage, skills suck anyway even if you do have damage so you need to look outside the class, sustain sucks, ZOS keeps making changes that push you into becoming a block...holder, etc.
And you have to wonder something. Does ZOS seriously not know what players want or are they simply just refusing to compromise their vision, to put it nicely?
It just seems unbeliveable that the dev team, if they spent a second actually playing any of the bottom classes in PvP (necro, arc, templar) they wouldn't see an overarching balance issue with them, esp. considering how annoying it is to keep up buffs on all 3 of those classes in combat.
And yet, here we are...3 -
nightbringer1993✭✭✭✭nightbringer1993 wrote: »I am, I used to be a necromancer main back when I played and because of these stupid nerfs brought on the class and the crazy buff other classes like DK and sorcerer received. I decided to leave the game too.
The game is currently unplayable for necromancers, and each time people mention skill issue, we ask them to show off their builds where they can take down a warden, sorcerer or DK while playing pure class necro. But nothing is shown.
The worst is that devs do not respond to necromancers threads. There was a thread concerning which class needed more help, necromancer was far ahead, but no answers from devs. People went massively against the blastbone change, and once again we were not being listened, and the change went live resulting in half the necromancers leaving the game and the rest either trying to remain with their class or forced to go on another class.
Strongest classes are being refreshed first while the weakest ones are refreshed last. This class refresh order is completely wrong.
So I prefer to go play other games and have fun rather than staying in the same game and going depressed of seeing other classes being buffed again and again.
I voted necromancer in that thread.
ZOS has a real problem of not listening to input once they decide on a change, no matter how bad it is. Look at templar on PTS right now and balanced warrior / illuminate. NO ONE asked for that change, and ZOS is going to do it anyway.
Instead of just listening to input or saying they've changed their mind, they are going in circles wasting development time trying to "balance" the loss of WD/SD on templar due to the change.
But the problem is that the changes they are doing falls short and aren't equally valuable to every build out there, so it is , in fact a nerf. A conditional buff, where the condition is that you run a specific build or values within it, is a nerf for all other builds that aren't going to fulfill the condition.
Somehow they cannot understand that and continue with the changes anyway. And now, they have it so that you have to slot templar skills to get a fraction of the power you lost back?
Did they not get the memo that templar skills suck after being repeatedly nerfed and never buffed? No one wants to slot those skills because they suck. We don't need to go around and pretend that it isn't the case that each skill line of templar only has 1-2 skills worth actually slotting.
Now, why bring up templar? Because it's literally just like necromancer in many ways: slow, no real usable immobilization, problems building for damage, skills suck anyway even if you do have damage so you need to look outside the class, sustain sucks, ZOS keeps making changes that push you into becoming a block...holder, etc.
And you have to wonder something. Does ZOS seriously not know what players want or are they simply just refusing to compromise their vision, to put it nicely?
It just seems unbeliveable that the dev team, if they spent a second actually playing any of the bottom classes in PvP (necro, arc, templar) they wouldn't see an overarching balance issue with them, esp. considering how annoying it is to keep up buffs on all 3 of those classes in combat.
And yet, here we are...
The big thing is that necromancer is a “PAID!” class and that people should therefore be able to enjoy the content they paid for.PC EU1 -
pinkpom✭✭✭It just seems unbeliveable that the dev team, if they spent a second actually playing any of the bottom classes in PvP (necro, arc, templar) they wouldn't see an overarching balance issue with them, esp. considering how annoying it is to keep up buffs on all 3 of those classes in combat.
NB is also in the bottom classes.1 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is a reason that "prioritize class reworks over other planned content is the top voted suggestion on the new Feedback & Suggestions board.
We are in a tough place right now because it doesn't make sense to spend resources nerfing and tweaking things that have been updated before getting through all the other updates. They probably shouldn't have introduced any class refresh until they were all done, but I can imagine that it's a major undertaking and it would have been difficult to keep people's interest otherwise.
I am glad they are trying, although I do agree that for players who don't love running with multiple characters and multiple builds, and can't make their peace with, say, dusting off their DKs until their main gets refreshed, that taking a break for those players makes sense... and that's not great for ESO either.
If it were me, I would have actually tried to temporarily get contractors or sequence things such that the class refreshes could be fast tracked but... we all know things went a different way, and likely that was not under ZOS's control.0 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭✭It just seems unbeliveable that the dev team, if they spent a second actually playing any of the bottom classes in PvP (necro, arc, templar) they wouldn't see an overarching balance issue with them, esp. considering how annoying it is to keep up buffs on all 3 of those classes in combat.
NB is also in the bottom classes.
Agree and I initially had it there too, esp. with how useless the masteries are. The class set nerf, while necessary due to a nasty bug that was abusable, means there is no relief there either. The class also suffers from a lack of good in-class buff options (who is going to slot drain power for major brutality? come on ZOS)
Subclassed NB has zero purpose as well in PvP, and I'd never take it over a subclassed DK, warden, or sorc. It's just not something that would happen in reality IMO.
ZOS just refuses to buff general purpose skill options for some reason, even though giving options could help some of these classes at least until they address the reworks.
I honestly do not understand it. When scribing was released , I thought ZOS would use that system to either create a general guideline for the entire game's combat system and build around it, or use it as a reference to balance classes and abilities.
Instead that isn't what happened; it just got tossed to the wayside and ZOS is making the same mistake they have made with balancing for years: wasting time making changes no one asked for, then going down a rabbit hole trying to justify it.
We can go "well if DK is that powerful, then other classes need to be buffed. If not, then there should be class agnostic options" -- and there ARE options, except they aren't getting buffed!
Look at the sorc request for a spammable and traveling knife getting shock damage. Such a shocking request almost shocked me off my siege when I read it, but it illustrates how scribing could be used to help classes that aren't getting reworked by offering options that are not tied to only one class.
But you know...I don't think that change was granted. What a shocker.3 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭Exhausting is seeing ppl lump sorc together with dk and ww when it doesn’t stand a chance against those at all just like the rest of the classes. Those who cannot discern that simply lack knowledge and skill to see that.
The two outliers aside, other classes can dish out some fat burst with onslaught (which is bugged though) and all can have good pressure and survivability, they are all playable except for arcanist that one is kind of dead atm.
If you don’t agree then instead of arguing just ask for help. If whining isn’t the only thing you’re interested in that is.
There’s a lot of buts when it comes to current balance issues, so that aside there’s one thing that historically makes eso’s pvp exhausting most of the time. It’s overboard survivability.
What we need is more damage because high damage and being able to kill is fun. The opposite is boring and exhausting. Shattered paths while being overly strong as an item allowed other classes to threaten the overly strong dk. It honestly felt like breath of fresh air although fleeting. There are players who came back to pvp for shattered paths’ high damage and left again with it being disabled as there was once again no way to oppose dk and ww. And it’s just one example. Damage needs to be high in order to secure kills and avoid stalemates as much as possible. At the same time it’s important that there’s counter play to said high damage and by that I mean a wide range of tactics and not the overtuned block spam. Lack of counter play can be equally as exhausting as lack of damage, like what we had during the last nb meta when gank builds were off the leash and guaranteed kills with minimal effort. Attacking from invisibility and securing a kill in a single gcd left players with no time to react and denied any opportunity to counter other than building tanky. That is one example of poorly balanced high damage.
All in all, in order for pvp to be fun damage needs to be high enough to avoid stalemates as much as possible while offering opportunities for skillful counter play, that isn’t simply eating all the damage and surviving it.4 -
Facts games are supposed to be fun and not exhausting and they absolutely refuse to just buff pure class but will try and force meaningless buffed skills onto the players.who are you guys creating the game for us or yourselves1
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »All in all, in order for pvp to be fun damage needs to be high enough to avoid stalemates as much as possible while offering opportunities for skillful counter play, that isn’t simply eating all the damage and surviving it.
Well said.
Not be a 7 year old broken record but that dang DoT to HoT ratio adjustment at Dragonhold.. Imo making all DoT ticks unblockable and all Direct Damage blockable in the early days was some smart balance. The solution to a Tank Meta does not need to be stronger instant burst.
There's supposed to be a balance of skill in timing burst AND managing timers, basically, and - speaking of the meta Shattered Path spec - things have gone in favor of just timing burst while stacking as many passive damage buffs as possible and minimizing timer management. Undepowered DoTs will do that.
Things had been going that way anyhow, I think this last patch was a step in the other direction and next patch will be too. I think SOME improvement is on the horizon.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast2 -
CatalinaWineMixer2✭✭✭✭✭There are a lot more of us with this sentiment now. And we aren't just exploring other games now, we are making Guilds there. They need to STOP NERFING OUR CHARACTERS. They need to REMOVE SUBCLASSING. And get back to a sane rules based combat order. And start creating more Classes.0
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭nightbringer1993 wrote: »nightbringer1993 wrote: »I am, I used to be a necromancer main back when I played and because of these stupid nerfs brought on the class and the crazy buff other classes like DK and sorcerer received. I decided to leave the game too.
The game is currently unplayable for necromancers, and each time people mention skill issue, we ask them to show off their builds where they can take down a warden, sorcerer or DK while playing pure class necro. But nothing is shown.
The worst is that devs do not respond to necromancers threads. There was a thread concerning which class needed more help, necromancer was far ahead, but no answers from devs. People went massively against the blastbone change, and once again we were not being listened, and the change went live resulting in half the necromancers leaving the game and the rest either trying to remain with their class or forced to go on another class.
Strongest classes are being refreshed first while the weakest ones are refreshed last. This class refresh order is completely wrong.
So I prefer to go play other games and have fun rather than staying in the same game and going depressed of seeing other classes being buffed again and again.
I voted necromancer in that thread.
ZOS has a real problem of not listening to input once they decide on a change, no matter how bad it is. Look at templar on PTS right now and balanced warrior / illuminate. NO ONE asked for that change, and ZOS is going to do it anyway.
Instead of just listening to input or saying they've changed their mind, they are going in circles wasting development time trying to "balance" the loss of WD/SD on templar due to the change.
But the problem is that the changes they are doing falls short and aren't equally valuable to every build out there, so it is , in fact a nerf. A conditional buff, where the condition is that you run a specific build or values within it, is a nerf for all other builds that aren't going to fulfill the condition.
Somehow they cannot understand that and continue with the changes anyway. And now, they have it so that you have to slot templar skills to get a fraction of the power you lost back?
Did they not get the memo that templar skills suck after being repeatedly nerfed and never buffed? No one wants to slot those skills because they suck. We don't need to go around and pretend that it isn't the case that each skill line of templar only has 1-2 skills worth actually slotting.
Now, why bring up templar? Because it's literally just like necromancer in many ways: slow, no real usable immobilization, problems building for damage, skills suck anyway even if you do have damage so you need to look outside the class, sustain sucks, ZOS keeps making changes that push you into becoming a block...holder, etc.
And you have to wonder something. Does ZOS seriously not know what players want or are they simply just refusing to compromise their vision, to put it nicely?
It just seems unbeliveable that the dev team, if they spent a second actually playing any of the bottom classes in PvP (necro, arc, templar) they wouldn't see an overarching balance issue with them, esp. considering how annoying it is to keep up buffs on all 3 of those classes in combat.
And yet, here we are...
The big thing is that necromancer is a “PAID!” class and that people should therefore be able to enjoy the content they paid for.
All classes are paid unless you got a copy of the game for completely free.
And even then, if we wanted to focus on making dlc classes stronger exclusively, than we have arrived to p2w territory.2 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »All in all, in order for pvp to be fun damage needs to be high enough to avoid stalemates as much as possible while offering opportunities for skillful counter play, that isn’t simply eating all the damage and surviving it.
One thing I will say is that damage is already plenty high, but what is frustrating is that there's only really 1 type of damage that has been allowed to remain that high (burst) because pressure builds never get to live for more than a single patch (if at all) because they require different ways to defend against them (healing/cleanses instead of just hold block) which forces build changes that people just don't want to make.
What really needs adjusting is the percent mitigations (including block) and healing/shielding since those have been allowed to run rampant which just resulted in calls for more damage to try and counter those, but that extra damage just forced everyone not on those block/heal/shield builds to stack even more health to survive the extra damage in an endless loop of power creep.
Just look at the current meta where the goal is to stack 40k+ health + as many percent mitigations as possible, completely ignore/dump mag/stam (unless running specifically a font of power sorc build) and now we also completely ignore recoveries thanks to stuff like Core of Flame (that on its own gives equivalent of 3k+ recoveries based on 20k mag/stam) to build even more into health to survive burst and damage to burst down anyone not on these same builds.1 -
nightbringer1993✭✭✭✭Well, why would necromancers who have been treated like trash come back into this game?
We asked for things other classes have access to such as buffing our group members or having a proper crowd control skill, whether it is totem or grave grasp or frozen colossus. None of theme are proper crowd control abilities because people can easily dodge them. Our burst damage got nerfed, like the removal of stalking blastbone.
Then masteries like the one that consider enemies like a corpse does not work on players, and we are supposed to believe the class is properly made for PvP.
This game is dead to me as a necromancer player.
PC EU2 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭✭nightbringer1993 wrote: »Well, why would necromancers who have been treated like trash come back into this game?
We asked for things other classes have access to such as buffing our group members or having a proper crowd control skill, whether it is totem or grave grasp or frozen colossus. None of theme are proper crowd control abilities because people can easily dodge them. Our burst damage got nerfed, like the removal of stalking blastbone.
Then masteries like the one that consider enemies like a corpse does not work on players, and we are supposed to believe the class is properly made for PvP.
This game is dead to me as a necromancer player.
Don't forget the corpse mechanic. Imagine a class getting nerfed hard to help server performance and getting 0 compensation. ZOS should have put the class #1 for reworks the moment they pushed that "fix".1 -
AvidNecro✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Exhausting is seeing ppl lump sorc together with dk and ww when it doesn’t stand a chance against those at all just like the rest of the classes. Those who cannot discern that simply lack knowledge and skill to see that. The two outliers aside, other classes can dish out some fat burst with onslaught (which is bugged though) and all can have good pressure and survivability, they are all playable except for arcanist that one is kind of dead atm.
If you don’t agree then instead of arguing just ask for help. If whining isn’t the only thing you’re interested in that is.
What’s genuinely exhausting is players like you with the confidence with which you’ve managed to turn a subjective balance discussion into a referendum on everyone else’s “knowledge and skill.” That isn’t analysis; it’s just condescension wearing a lab coat. The point is to discuss relative performance, matchup spread, pressure, survivability, and how those factors interact across the broader class ecosystem. Reducing that conversation to “if you disagree, you’re ignorant and should ask for help” is particularly amusing, because it substitutes an appeal to your own supposed expertise for the actual evidence you’re claiming to possess.
And the “instead of arguing, ask for help” line is especially rich. You’re not offering help—you’re declaring yourself the authority and everyone who disagrees with you deficient. There’s a rather substantial difference between explaining your position and demanding that everyone else defer to it.
If your argument is that Sorc is fundamentally weaker than DK and WW, fine. Make that argument. Provide the reasoning, matchups, numbers, or gameplay examples that demonstrate it. But “people who disagree simply lack knowledge and skill” isn’t evidence; it’s what people say when they’d rather establish an intellectual hierarchy than defend a position.
So by all means, keep discussing balance. Just understand that confidently announcing that everyone who disagrees with you is too incompetent to understand the game does not make your argument more sophisticated. It merely makes the superiority complex considerably more visible.
Lastly... Sorc is absoluuuuuutelty BUSTED. There's plenty of feedback and people that have confirmed this and have agreed. Only try hard sorc mains, would defend against the fact, that they're not, and coincidentally would also argue that the heal they slapped on to hardened ward was also a good idea a few years ago. There's countless posts about that one including one thread, being over 74 pages long... So yes, Sorc is up there with DK and WW, and not even reworked yet...Necromancer Main [PCNA] Follow me on YouTube!9 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Exhausting is seeing ppl lump sorc together with dk and ww when it doesn’t stand a chance against those at all just like the rest of the classes. Those who cannot discern that simply lack knowledge and skill to see that. The two outliers aside, other classes can dish out some fat burst with onslaught (which is bugged though) and all can have good pressure and survivability, they are all playable except for arcanist that one is kind of dead atm.
If you don’t agree then instead of arguing just ask for help. If whining isn’t the only thing you’re interested in that is.
What’s genuinely exhausting is players like you with the confidence with which you’ve managed to turn a subjective balance discussion into a referendum on everyone else’s “knowledge and skill.” That isn’t analysis; it’s just condescension wearing a lab coat. The point is to discuss relative performance, matchup spread, pressure, survivability, and how those factors interact across the broader class ecosystem. Reducing that conversation to “if you disagree, you’re ignorant and should ask for help” is particularly amusing, because it substitutes an appeal to your own supposed expertise for the actual evidence you’re claiming to possess.
And the “instead of arguing, ask for help” line is especially rich. You’re not offering help—you’re declaring yourself the authority and everyone who disagrees with you deficient. There’s a rather substantial difference between explaining your position and demanding that everyone else defer to it.
If your argument is that Sorc is fundamentally weaker than DK and WW, fine. Make that argument. Provide the reasoning, matchups, numbers, or gameplay examples that demonstrate it. But “people who disagree simply lack knowledge and skill” isn’t evidence; it’s what people say when they’d rather establish an intellectual hierarchy than defend a position.
So by all means, keep discussing balance. Just understand that confidently announcing that everyone who disagrees with you is too incompetent to understand the game does not make your argument more sophisticated. It merely makes the superiority complex considerably more visible.
Lastly... Sorc is absoluuuuuutelty BUSTED. There's plenty of feedback and people that have confirmed this and have agreed. Only try hard sorc mains, would defend against the fact, that they're not, and coincidentally would also argue that the heal they slapped on to hardened ward was also a good idea a few years ago. There's countless posts about that one including one thread, being over 74 pages long... So yes, Sorc is up there with DK and WW, and not even reworked yet...
Nothing but an outburst of emotions that holds zero value. Have you tried asking for advice and actually trying to improve instead?0 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭✭
Lastly... Sorc is absoluuuuuutelty BUSTED. There's plenty of feedback and people that have confirmed this and have agreed. Only try hard sorc mains, would defend against the fact, that they're not, and coincidentally would also argue that the heal they slapped on to hardened ward was also a good idea a few years ago. There's countless posts about that one including one thread, being over 74 pages long... So yes, Sorc is up there with DK and WW, and not even reworked yet...
Players on the forums often pretend they want balance and then protect their cheese. There is no need to argue with anyone that can't objectively see that sorc is also in the same league as DK.
People always run to these arguments when defending the OP:
"Unique"
"Rule breaker"
"Skillful play"
"Knowledge difference"
"Niche"
And there's many more, but you get the point. An excuse is always offered in some way, shape, or form to justify why something everyone is complaining about isn't a problem.
I simply don't take the people that use that line of argumentation seriously because eventually whatever position they take using it usually results in a fallacy or circular argument that can be easily defeated, then they go "nuh-uh" or try to bait into back and forth to attract the moderators.
You've seen the forums this past month? It's been happening all over as people try to protect their cheese from getting melted. They know, you know, and I know what needs to be nerfed and what can and will be, so the next best course of action is an attempt to block people from discussing it.
First through attacks intended to insult and humiliate, then when that fails and you keep discussing it, they try to toss bait over and over or make the thread longer while adding zero substance.
Don't play their game. Everyone reading already knows the truth about these forum users.
The best part is that it doesn't even matter because when someone like me reads posts like the one you responded to, it actually makes me stop firing siege in Cyrodiil and making videos on exactly why something needs a nerf. And I send it in as feedback. I don't need to bother arguing with forum users at that point because I know it will get adjusted, and if not, then we will just have to post the builds that ruin the game's balance when it isn't adjusted in the next patch.
It's the ultimate payback when the people defending the cheese through insults and bait have their cheese melted anyway. And it's most enjoyable to watch. Though extremely unfortunate when it has to come to that.4 -
Zallion✭✭✭✭
Lastly... Sorc is absoluuuuuutelty BUSTED. There's plenty of feedback and people that have confirmed this and have agreed. Only try hard sorc mains, would defend against the fact, that they're not, and coincidentally would also argue that the heal they slapped on to hardened ward was also a good idea a few years ago. There's countless posts about that one including one thread, being over 74 pages long... So yes, Sorc is up there with DK and WW, and not even reworked yet...
Players on the forums often pretend they want balance and then protect their cheese. There is no need to argue with anyone that can't objectively see that sorc is also in the same league as DK.
People always run to these arguments when defending the OP:
"Unique"
"Rule breaker"
"Skillful play"
"Knowledge difference"
"Niche"
And there's many more, but you get the point. An excuse is always offered in some way, shape, or form to justify why something everyone is complaining about isn't a problem.
I simply don't take the people that use that line of argumentation seriously because eventually whatever position they take using it usually results in a fallacy or circular argument that can be easily defeated, then they go "nuh-uh" or try to bait into back and forth to attract the moderators.
You've seen the forums this past month? It's been happening all over as people try to protect their cheese from getting melted. They know, you know, and I know what needs to be nerfed and what can and will be, so the next best course of action is an attempt to block people from discussing it.
First through attacks intended to insult and humiliate, then when that fails and you keep discussing it, they try to toss bait over and over or make the thread longer while adding zero substance.
Don't play their game. Everyone reading already knows the truth about these forum users.
The best part is that it doesn't even matter because when someone like me reads posts like the one you responded to, it actually makes me stop firing siege in Cyrodiil and making videos on exactly why something needs a nerf. And I send it in as feedback. I don't need to bother arguing with forum users at that point because I know it will get adjusted, and if not, then we will just have to post the builds that ruin the game's balance when it isn't adjusted in the next patch.
It's the ultimate payback when the people defending the cheese through insults and bait have their cheese melted anyway. And it's most enjoyable to watch. Though extremely unfortunate when it has to come to that.
Nobody enjoys when their main gets nerfed. But I wish folks could be more objective on things and look at the bigger picture too. It’s not healthy for 1-2 classes to drastically over perform the others period, no matter what the flavor of the month (or year +) happens to be. There will always be something at the top, but that gap is way way too big now, which is why you see an absurdly high concentration of Sorcs and DKs, people just want to win at the end of the day. Can’t blame the players, winning is what makes things fun and is ultimately the point when it comes to a competitive game and PvP. But calling a spade a spade, two classes are vastly stronger than the rest. That is just not good for the game. It’s not good for retention. It’s not good for drawing current, new, or returning players to the PvP space. That further hurts the population and the health of the game.
The meta isnt in a good place right now and it’s obvious as to why. As we’re looking at a timeline of years now for the remaining refreshes, it’s a simpler and quicker approach to bring down the ceiling on whats overperforming, as much as I would prefer other classes receive more buffs than any one class receive nerfs. As for DK and Sorc mains who don’t see the issue, I implore you to truly and honestly play some other classes for a while, like a week or two. While not impossible obviously, it is so much more a class issue than a skill issue and that should never be an… issue.Edited by Zallion on August 22, 2026 8:55PM2 -
Militan1404✭✭✭✭Yeah something needs to change in pvp in this game, it is insufferable if your not playing on one of the top meta classes.
Was going to around in IC the other day on my templar, and then a DK and a sorc jumped me and we started fighting and even with almost 8k wep and spell dmg their health bars was barely moving. But when they attacked me i had to on on my edge constantly and one mistake and i would die and was barely holding on. After a like 20min after they got bored and started teabag me instead and sending me whispers about how bad i was and i could never kill anything and etc. so i got a bit mad and switched on to my DK whent to the same district and i killed them both right away, they respawned and i did it again and again until they left. And it was like i was fighting totally different players from my templar to my dk.
Then there is when i am playing with my firends or guild mates its always like «oh you are on your templar, cant you just come on your DK or sorc instead?». The thing is i dont want to play a DK or sorc i want to play my templar and i want it to be viable, not just some heal bot and group buffer thats running around slapping people with noodles. But cant blame them either, why even waste the spot? So every time we run together we are just a group of DK, sorcs and WW(sound balanced right?). And next patch wont change this at all it. Happy for necros tho, they seem tho be i coming in quite a decent spot next patch. But plar, nb and arcanist needs more attention.7 -
Luneca✭✭✭✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »Yeah something needs to change in pvp in this game, it is insufferable if your not playing on one of the top meta classes.
Was going to around in IC the other day on my templar, and then a DK and a sorc jumped me and we started fighting and even with almost 8k wep and spell dmg their health bars was barely moving. But when they attacked me i had to on on my edge constantly and one mistake and i would die and was barely holding on. After a like 20min after they got bored and started teabag me instead and sending me whispers about how bad i was and i could never kill anything and etc. so i got a bit mad and switched on to my DK whent to the same district and i killed them both right away, they respawned and i did it again and again until they left. And it was like i was fighting totally different players from my templar to my dk.
Then there is when i am playing with my firends or guild mates its always like «oh you are on your templar, cant you just come on your DK or sorc instead?». The thing is i dont want to play a DK or sorc i want to play my templar and i want it to be viable, not just some heal bot and group buffer thats running around slapping people with noodles. But cant blame them either, why even waste the spot? So every time we run together we are just a group of DK, sorcs and WW(sound balanced right?). And next patch wont change this at all it. Happy for necros tho, they seem tho be i coming in quite a decent spot next patch. But plar, nb and arcanist needs more attention.
The nice part about being on a bad class is that any buff they do will increase your performance dramatically. That means that you literally can only go up from where you are at. And that's a problem for the people at the "top" as they will start asking for nerfs to classes that are already bad.
I saw someone that plays sorc/DK asking for a healing nerf to templar in the PTS section because of that god-awful minor sorcery and armor change. And they implied they were a templar. Seriously?
You have to really wonder about players in the PvP space of this game sometimes. They literally want the system tilted hard towards them and to be gods with little investment.
Look at the WW players in the PTS section now complaining that they can't run over 40K health, have less than 20k mag and stam and not run into sustain issues because of the cost of WW skills being adjusted.
I don't know what reality they live in, but if I run the same on my templar then there is an issue with damage AND sustain. Where right now on live that isn't true for WW, sorc or not. And that's where they want WW to be back at next patch when suggesting the PTS changes get reverted.
It's a little insane and hard to take them seriously when the same players then come back and claim it's skill.
No, when the system favors you to the extent that you don't even have to worry about build decisions everyone else does, it isn't skill at work anymore -- it's just being carried by the system that enables it.
And this patch many are desperate to protect that system no matter what. Even NBs complaining about cloak getting a WORKING counter for once making suggestions like the counter having a cool down, but the cloak skill not? And the counter is OP, but the skill it counters isn't?
This is a bizzarre year for the game, both from developers and the players. And it really is a bad one IMO, because it not only was disappointing on many levels, but it opened the can of worms in the game's design that shouldn't have been opened many times and in different ways that ultimately will hurt the game long-term.
It's getting too long and I can write pages of feedback on why I didn't like Signet, the DK rework, WW rework, Class Masteries, etc. and provide builds that prove they are not good for the game. Though ZOS already took action on some (oh no, shame that my Sorc recursive build got nerfed into the ground -- it was bad design anyway tbh).
At the same time too much neglect has been given to skills and classes that literally have nothing and no purpose in many contexts of the game.
I can only hope that the game does eventually get better. But with the majority of feedback being extremely hyperbolic and biased in the PTS section, I seriously doubt it. This is one of the cases after handing nerfs I wish ZOS would ignore input.5 -
aLi3nZ✭✭✭✭Yeah pretty tiring just seeing dk and ww with a splash of sorc.
I took up fishing. Yeah it’s boring but I honestly barely been in most of the zones despite near 2000 cp points so it’s interesting for me to explore and fish and its relaxing.3
