Werewolf obliterated while DK remains! Everyone Rejoice!

Wuuffyy · August 14

No real mention of werewolf on the combat update.

Once again- sorc reigns supreme on PTS while everything else feels abysmal.

Nerfs directly geared at PvP affect the vast majority of builds in PvE in a drastically negative way (mag builds, tank builds, solo/health-based survivability builds).

You mentioned ‘bash weaving’ for necro (which is something I’d like to continue doing on werewolf for higher skill expression) but then leave werewolf out of the equation if they are building properly for PvP on anything but a sorc (which again, is largely unscathed from the changes in a 1 v 1 situation).

Are you listening team? You heard about Strife feedback which had only a handful of comments- yet this is seemingly being willfully ignored.

You are absolutely unnecessarily and heavily affecting PvE werewolves especially out of ‘optimized environments’, pigeonholing PvP werewolves directly back to sorc (where everything else becomes borderline comical), and setting up a guaranteed next line of nerfs for werewolf by not re-allocating some bite healing to rage/fortitude (and, again, forcing the Sorc class to achieve similar sustain).

Obligatory tags @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Wuuffyy · August 16

Still hoping for the absolute best and that any and all feedback in this department is being ‘seen’ and ‘heard’.

(again, reminder that you are greatly affecting many playstyles in PvE, mag builds are not viable with 3000 costs and a low stam pull, everything feels like garbage except sorc in PvP… which feels nearly unchanged in extended 1v1s)

Wuuffyy · August 18

Ocelot9x wrote: »

But we got resource node revamp in cyrodiil!!!! HUGE patch

I completely ignored you, I’m sorry! Wheeewwwwww, resource node!!!!!!

(ZOS, please be reasonable here, I beg of you all- seriously)

JimT722 · August 18

I decided to go nb for my werewolf tank because I thought it would be balanced eventually and it wouldn't matter much. I feel stupid now. now I think I might need to make a sorc ww. or just go back to dk.

hoangdz · August 18

WW is fine

JimT722 · August 18

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

I agree. ww should be just fine with sorc. I'll make a sorc ww.

hoangdz · August 18

JimT722 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

I agree. ww should be just fine with sorc. I'll make a sorc ww.

Go ahead. That's literally been the case since U50 dropped. Same with Sorc too when Conservation gets nerfed eventually.

Wuuffyy · August 18

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

JimT722 · August 18

the change will also make sorc best for pve as well because it mitigates the change.

hoangdz · August 18

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

Wuuffyy · August 18

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

dark_hunterxmg · August 18

We are correct to compare Werewolf to Dragon Knight. When another class gets reworked, we will compare that one too.

coop500 · August 18

The fact that there's no word from the devs on this is so sad.
@ZOS_Kevin We want our PvE Magicka Werewolves back! T.T

hoangdz · August 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

Wuuffyy · August 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

hoangdz · August 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

Wuuffyy · August 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You’ve completely lost me on whatever you’re referring to at this point. CoE alone is allowing me to infinitely sustain duels on PTS for my werewolf with no effort. Taking the points out of it tanks my sustain to all hekk.

CoE needs nerfs in general if we’re taking DK out (or trying to). The math is there for CoE the ‘top 3 of classes’ is there. I don’t know what you’re talking about, honestly.

Sorry you don’t use it anymore, I suppose?? Unless you think they should give everyone a CoE-level mastery instead.

hoangdz · August 19

And for the record, before uninstalling the game I have already been using Calculated Defense which gives me 6% WD permanently and similar survivability. If sustain was a big problem (which it isn't for me), I would ony need 2 recover glyphs instead. I'd lose zero damage because the 6% WD from Calc Defense covers for that. Nothing changes in my build lol.

hoangdz · August 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You’ve completely lost me on whatever you’re referring to at this point. CoE alone is allowing me to infinitely sustain duels on PTS for my werewolf with no effort. Taking the points out of it tanks my sustain to all hekk.

CoE needs nerfs in general if we’re taking DK out (or trying to). The math is there for CoE the ‘top 3 of classes’ is there. I don’t know what you’re talking about, honestly.

Sorry you don’t use it anymore, I suppose?? Unless you think they should give everyone a CoE-level mastery instead.

Right, and I'm saying nerfing the heal is better than nerfing the sustain. Are you aware of how healing nerfs affects sustain though?

Wuuffyy · August 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You’ve completely lost me on whatever you’re referring to at this point. CoE alone is allowing me to infinitely sustain duels on PTS for my werewolf with no effort. Taking the points out of it tanks my sustain to all hekk.

CoE needs nerfs in general if we’re taking DK out (or trying to). The math is there for CoE the ‘top 3 of classes’ is there. I don’t know what you’re talking about, honestly.

Sorry you don’t use it anymore, I suppose?? Unless you think they should give everyone a CoE-level mastery instead.

Right, and I'm saying nerfing the heal is better than nerfing the sustain. Are you aware of how healing nerfs affects sustain though?

I say we nerf both, as I said before. The sustain is absolutely unhealthy. 1200 ‘recov’ on main resource for only 30k max and 800 on off resource is absolutely unhealthy.

My stam sorc sustains immensely well with just CoE and AP tris alone:

So wait, did you quit or are you still here? I’m becoming more and more confused atp. At first you weren’t running the thing you were defending and now you’re not playing the game… or you are???

Arunei · August 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You don't want sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity but at the same time you think WW having build diversity reduced by being forced into playing Sorc for CoE is somehow fine? Make it make sense.

You are aware that Mag WW will no longer be viable, yes? You are aware that pretty much both Skills that are considered WW's spammable will run you out of Stam within a few fights, and Stam builds that have next to no Mag will have maybe three or four Hircine's in them before they're also out of Mag AND Stam, yes? Because I'm seeing this on the PTS myself in testing a few different builds.

WW in PvE will NOT be fine if these changes go live as they are. Build diversity, which you're claiming to care about, will be reduced when Mag WW is no longer viable and even Stam characters are burning through Stam in a couple of fights unless they're a Sorc. I guess the build diversity only matters when it's for any other play-style but WW.

JimT722 · August 19

sustain is so useful on ww. there is a reason nearly every ww is sorcerer. this change will likely force every remaining ww to be sorcerer. my nb werewolf tank is going to become a sorc ww tank. that way I don't have to give up anything I can't afford to in order to sustain.

I think this nerf was on track. they just needed to do it in a way that didn't cut the legs off of ww on every other class. non sorc ww isn't a problem.

Panderbander · August 19

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You don't want sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity but at the same time you think WW having build diversity reduced by being forced into playing Sorc for CoE is somehow fine? Make it make sense.

You are aware that Mag WW will no longer be viable, yes? You are aware that pretty much both Skills that are considered WW's spammable will run you out of Stam within a few fights, and Stam builds that have next to no Mag will have maybe three or four Hircine's in them before they're also out of Mag AND Stam, yes? Because I'm seeing this on the PTS myself in testing a few different builds.

WW in PvE will NOT be fine if these changes go live as they are. Build diversity, which you're claiming to care about, will be reduced when Mag WW is no longer viable and even Stam characters are burning through Stam in a couple of fights unless they're a Sorc. I guess the build diversity only matters when it's for any other play-style but WW.

They do not care. The only thing they do care about is that werewolf is nerfed, as they were also one of the loudest voices during the U50 PTS trying to tear it down while also gloating about "winning" when ZOS did reduce its power substantially.

This is not a person to engage in good faith arguments with.

hoangdz · August 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-

His vigor-

My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):

Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You’ve completely lost me on whatever you’re referring to at this point. CoE alone is allowing me to infinitely sustain duels on PTS for my werewolf with no effort. Taking the points out of it tanks my sustain to all hekk.

CoE needs nerfs in general if we’re taking DK out (or trying to). The math is there for CoE the ‘top 3 of classes’ is there. I don’t know what you’re talking about, honestly.

Sorry you don’t use it anymore, I suppose?? Unless you think they should give everyone a CoE-level mastery instead.

Right, and I'm saying nerfing the heal is better than nerfing the sustain. Are you aware of how healing nerfs affects sustain though?

I say we nerf both, as I said before. The sustain is absolutely unhealthy. 1200 ‘recov’ on main resource for only 30k max and 800 on off resource is absolutely unhealthy.

My stam sorc sustains immensely well with just CoE and AP tris alone:

So wait, did you quit or are you still here? I’m becoming more and more confused atp. At first you weren’t running the thing you were defending and now you’re not playing the game… or you are???

Okay how would you nerf its value?

I recently uninstalled. I’m waiting until U51 goes live.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity

Good luck trying to explain this aspect, these people don't care about balance or build diversity (such as shock sorc being actually viable for the first time ever), they just want everything that's not their own class/build nerfed into crafting bench tier.

As for CoE itself, there's a few changes that would completely fix it without the need to completely gut it (which gutting it would only force MORE Sorcs into these same "problematic" builds everyone keeps crying about):

1. No longer works with core combat (this is 1200 stam recovery nerf + removal of 1 bar slot for utility, damage or healing on its own since it forces vigor back onto the build (which averages to 600 stam/s or 1200 stam recovery to cast it) also forces tri-pots back onto the build so 6k less armor as well.
2. No longer works with health cost abilities (no more B4B being a free to cast spammable, signet ele sus proved how problematic free spammables are).
3. No longer works with WW (or any "cheap" ability) (this is basically a combination of the above 2 reasons).

If needed, then 1 more would be to reduce the healing value (or cap it to prevent stacking 40k+ max health).

AdonisJorge · August 19

JimT722 wrote: »

sustain is so useful on ww. there is a reason nearly every ww is sorcerer. this change will likely force every remaining ww to be sorcerer. my nb werewolf tank is going to become a sorc ww tank. that way I don't have to give up anything I can't afford to in order to sustain.

I think this nerf was on track. they just needed to do it in a way that didn't cut the legs off of ww on every other class. non sorc ww isn't a problem.

i have tested some WW builds on PTS, can you help me into it? We will have more data about it and maybe a video if you want, sustain on WW is not good on PTS but some people just want the playstyle nuked to the oblivion

Wuuffyy · August 19

AdonisJorge wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

sustain is so useful on ww. there is a reason nearly every ww is sorcerer. this change will likely force every remaining ww to be sorcerer. my nb werewolf tank is going to become a sorc ww tank. that way I don't have to give up anything I can't afford to in order to sustain.

I think this nerf was on track. they just needed to do it in a way that didn't cut the legs off of ww on every other class. non sorc ww isn't a problem.

i have tested some WW builds on PTS, can you help me into it? We will have more data about it and maybe a video if you want, sustain on WW is not good on PTS but some people just want the playstyle nuked to the oblivion

Did you still want help with this?

AdonisJorge · August 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

sustain is so useful on ww. there is a reason nearly every ww is sorcerer. this change will likely force every remaining ww to be sorcerer. my nb werewolf tank is going to become a sorc ww tank. that way I don't have to give up anything I can't afford to in order to sustain.

I think this nerf was on track. they just needed to do it in a way that didn't cut the legs off of ww on every other class. non sorc ww isn't a problem.

i have tested some WW builds on PTS, can you help me into it? We will have more data about it and maybe a video if you want, sustain on WW is not good on PTS but some people just want the playstyle nuked to the oblivion

Did you still want help with this?

Of course, it would be good to see how much the WW got nerfed with some numbers, because even in PvE I was having problems on PTS outside of using CoE

Wuuffyy · August 19

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

sustain is so useful on ww. there is a reason nearly every ww is sorcerer. this change will likely force every remaining ww to be sorcerer. my nb werewolf tank is going to become a sorc ww tank. that way I don't have to give up anything I can't afford to in order to sustain.

I think this nerf was on track. they just needed to do it in a way that didn't cut the legs off of ww on every other class. non sorc ww isn't a problem.

i have tested some WW builds on PTS, can you help me into it? We will have more data about it and maybe a video if you want, sustain on WW is not good on PTS but some people just want the playstyle nuked to the oblivion

Did you still want help with this?

Of course, it would be good to see how much the WW got nerfed with some numbers, because even in PvE I was having problems on PTS outside of using CoE

Care to send me a DM through forums? I’m down to help right now.

I have Discord and the actual client launcher (of course) to communicate through also. Tag should be the same via either/or, I believe.

hoangdz · August 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity

Good luck trying to explain this aspect, these people don't care about balance or build diversity (such as shock sorc being actually viable for the first time ever), they just want everything that's not their own class/build nerfed into crafting bench tier.

Right, magsorcs had to use Wretched Vitality + Sugar Skulls and stamsorcs either ran Orzoga + a damage set or Essence Thief + Sugarskulls. Stamsorc specifically didn't even need Orzoga anyway because Essence Thief + Sugarskulls was just too stat dense, so stamsorcs could afford to play with <1k recovery. The catch was that both specs were pretty much locked into a recovery set and/or specific bar layouts, so build diversity was rather non-existent.

Conservation of Energy is indeed a busted passive, and I've actually advocated for it to be nerfed throughout U50 PTS cycles and on the live server. However, I just don't think the sustain is the actual issue of the passive, especially for a top tier Sorc. While Sorc has always been pretty strong in offensive healing, it's rather lackling in defensive heals, which contributes to its higher skill-ceiling compared to other classes. To survive and brawl effectively on a Sorc, a player needs to have nearly perfect mechanics and be aggressive. Not a lot of people can consistently play aggressive and maintain high APM against high pressure specs.

Conservation of Energy changed that by providing nearly permanent 2-4k HPS. This is the crux of the problem that enables average Sorcs to survive so well, and top tier Sorcs to be nearly unkillable. The sustain is also a crutch for them, but it's not nearly as problematic as the heal. When you remove the heal, you will automatically cut sustain by at least 50% because players will now lose 2-4k HPS, forcing them to spam active healing abilities more and drain their resources faster. This still lets them keep their build diversity, while also addressing the tankiness and sustain imbalance directly as well.

But, not many people understand the game enough to see it this way lol.