Limit Class Masteries to only work with Class abilities?

Erickson9610 · August 6

If yes, then to proc any Class Mastery, it has to be done via casting a Class ability; it will no longer work with any non-Class ability. Any buffs from Class Masteries would only affect Class abilities. To benefit from Class Masteries, you must have a Class ability slotted on that bar.

This would stop irrelevant skill lines like Werewolf from being nerfed due to their interactions with Class Masteries. This would also reinforce the idea that Class Masteries are here to benefit Class skill lines and their playstyles specifically, not Weapon, World, Guild, Alliance War, etc.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 6

Other

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/above-and-beyond

Above and Beyond:
An assassin is only as good as their reputation. Increases your Critical Damage and Healing by 25%. This effect is reduced to 5% against targets with Battle Spirit. Increases your maximum Critical Damage and Healing by 30%.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/an-eye-for-exploitation

An Eye for Exploitation:
Every strike, every stab, is a step towards execution. Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by up to 2000, based on your target's missing Health. Reduces your damage taken by up to 20%, based on your attacker's missing Health. Both effects are halved against targets with Battle Spirit.

^ Here is your answer.

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards" on more useful class mastery passives and why other classes that have arguably stronger class mastery passives were pushed to the live server without any kind of mechanism that would prevent those passives from making way too strong builds. Cuz guess what is going to happen after WW nerfs ? People will still complain, but about sorcs or wardens.

ItsNotLiving · August 6

No

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/above-and-beyond

Above and Beyond:
An assassin is only as good as their reputation. Increases your Critical Damage and Healing by 25%. This effect is reduced to 5% against targets with Battle Spirit. Increases your maximum Critical Damage and Healing by 30%.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/an-eye-for-exploitation

An Eye for Exploitation:
Every strike, every stab, is a step towards execution. Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by up to 2000, based on your target's missing Health. Reduces your damage taken by up to 20%, based on your attacker's missing Health. Both effects are halved against targets with Battle Spirit.

^ Here is your answer.

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards" on more useful class mastery passives and why other classes that have arguably stronger class mastery passives were pushed to the live server without any kind of mechanism that would prevent those passives from making way too strong builds. Cuz guess what is going to happen after WW nerfs ? People will still complain, but about sorcs or wardens.

Don’t lump warden in with Sorc in PvP. You can’t sustain at all in PvP and the masteries are too limiting on what you can run after shattered path got nuked.

madmufffin · August 6

No

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/above-and-beyond

Above and Beyond:
An assassin is only as good as their reputation. Increases your Critical Damage and Healing by 25%. This effect is reduced to 5% against targets with Battle Spirit. Increases your maximum Critical Damage and Healing by 30%.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/an-eye-for-exploitation

An Eye for Exploitation:
Every strike, every stab, is a step towards execution. Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by up to 2000, based on your target's missing Health. Reduces your damage taken by up to 20%, based on your attacker's missing Health. Both effects are halved against targets with Battle Spirit.

^ Here is your answer.

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards" on more useful class mastery passives and why other classes that have arguably stronger class mastery passives were pushed to the live server without any kind of mechanism that would prevent those passives from making way too strong builds. Cuz guess what is going to happen after WW nerfs ? People will still complain, but about sorcs or wardens.

Don’t lump warden in with Sorc in PvP. You can’t sustain at all in PvP and the masteries are too limiting on what you can run after shattered path got nuked.

Shattered path massacre was so over the top and unnecessary

twing1_ · August 6

Yes

The way I see it, Class Mastery skills were introduced to bring pure-class styles of play up to a point where they could viably compete with sub-classed options. As such, it makes sense to me that Class Mastery skills should be entirely dependent on pure-class playstyles, whether that be a proc condition being dependent on activating a Class Skill or a passive skill that synergizes ONLY with class skills. Ex/ NB Above and Beyond could ONLY increase critical damage to NB class skills instead of all skills, and Conservation of Energy could proc ONLY when a Sorcerer skill is activated.

If all Class Mastery skills were designed in this fashion, problematic interactions with skills sourced outside of class skill lines (like what's currently going on with Werewolf form and Conservation of Energy/Static Reverberation/Eye for Exploitation/Wild Adaptaion/Green-Keeper's Hide/etc) could be avoided altogether, and the game would be in a healthier spot from a balance perspective.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 6

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards"

It wasn't "only Nightblade".

Arcanist has a mastery that goes from 30% damage done to 15% in PvP.

Necromancer has a mastery entirely disabled in PvP.

That being said, Nightblade's reductions are pretty steep.

Elendildur · August 6

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards"

It wasn't "only Nightblade".

Arcanist has a mastery that goes from 30% damage done to 15% in PvP.

Necromancer has a mastery entirely disabled in PvP.

That being said, Nightblade's reductions are pretty steep.

Nightblade, Necromancer, Templar and Arcanist all have masteries that explicitly say they have a different magnitude against players, or while Battle Spirit is active, only Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Wardens are exempt

VinnyGambini · August 7

Other

Elendildur wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards"

It wasn't "only Nightblade".

Arcanist has a mastery that goes from 30% damage done to 15% in PvP.

Necromancer has a mastery entirely disabled in PvP.

That being said, Nightblade's reductions are pretty steep.

Nightblade, Necromancer, Templar and Arcanist all have masteries that explicitly say they have a different magnitude against players, or while Battle Spirit is active, only Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Wardens are exempt

And Dragonknights Sorcerers and Wardens are currently top 3 classes in PvP. How unpredictable. Classes with PvP nerfs, perform worse in PvP, who would have thought?

All these "in battlespirit" nerfs should be removed.

Erickson9610 · August 7

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards"

It wasn't "only Nightblade".

Arcanist has a mastery that goes from 30% damage done to 15% in PvP.

Necromancer has a mastery entirely disabled in PvP.

That being said, Nightblade's reductions are pretty steep.

Nightblade, Necromancer, Templar and Arcanist all have masteries that explicitly say they have a different magnitude against players, or while Battle Spirit is active, only Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Wardens are exempt

And Dragonknights Sorcerers and Wardens are currently top 3 classes in PvP. How unpredictable. Classes with PvP nerfs, perform worse in PvP, who would have thought?

All these "in battlespirit" nerfs should be removed.

I'd much rather deal with these so-called "problematic" Class Masteries bringing back class diversity in the meta than sit through another couple of months with the current meta. Remember when you'd rarely see one or two classes, rather than rarely see anything but one or two classes?

EnochianWing · August 7

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards"

It wasn't "only Nightblade".

Arcanist has a mastery that goes from 30% damage done to 15% in PvP.

Necromancer has a mastery entirely disabled in PvP.

That being said, Nightblade's reductions are pretty steep.

Nightblade, Necromancer, Templar and Arcanist all have masteries that explicitly say they have a different magnitude against players, or while Battle Spirit is active, only Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Wardens are exempt

And Dragonknights Sorcerers and Wardens are currently top 3 classes in PvP. How unpredictable. Classes with PvP nerfs, perform worse in PvP, who would have thought?

All these "in battlespirit" nerfs should be removed.

I would not lump wardens into that if it's not a WW or running Aerys Cry and Ele Sus. Otherwise it gets no benefit from class masteries because Wardens don't really have any abilities that apply status effects besides maybe chilled. Now they are nerfing ele sus so it wont even matter anyway just less ability to create any pressure when fighting DKs. DK and sorc are the two classes that can be pure class and actually do anything in PVP that's why you can see a group of 2 ppl just steam rolling 10 players if they are playing DK and Sorc or 2 DK

Firstmep · August 8

Yes

Templar already pretty much has this restriction so I'm all for other classes getting it.

tomofhyrule · August 8

I feel like this is falling into the "derp just nerf things that are OP" without looking at why things are OP and then adjusting those.

DK is OP right now. That is obvious. And it has nothing to do with their Masteries.
The big problems that DK has are 1) near-unlimited sustain, and 2) the ability to shrug off most damage while on an "ignore armor" rampage. Those two problems come from DK's skills, not their Masteries. Trying to make DK not have its Masteries will... not change that in the slightest.
What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Sorcs are extremely powerful in PvP because of one of their Masteries, so a blanket Mastery nerf will affect them, but again this just leads to the wrong method.

Too long we've dealt with a Combat Team whose main idea was "lol just check the all-knowing spreadsheet" or "someone came up with a fun unique way to play? Destroy it!" It's time for the Combat Team to actually take the time to see why something is OP instead of just letting Copilot come up with a quick solution.
Scalpel nerfs, not sledgehammer nerfs.

SonOfAsura · August 8

No

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like this is falling into the "derp just nerf things that are OP" without looking at why things are OP and then adjusting those.

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

.

I Disagree tbh. core of flame helps a lot and important for PvE tanking and for solo builds and

tomofhyrule · August 8

SonOfAsura wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like this is falling into the "derp just nerf things that are OP" without looking at why things are OP and then adjusting those.

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

.

I Disagree tbh. core of flame helps a lot and important for PvE tanking and for solo builds and

It is not necessary.

I play a DK tank. I only play DK tank. And here's Xalvakka from our PB prog last week, which is basically a permablock fight:

No Core of Flame slotted. I just trust my healers instead.

This does go into another factor - healers should have a purpose beyond "I'm going to sit there and do nothing until someone is hurt." People all talk about how as healers, they feel undervalued. But a healer who helps with resources is what makes a healer great. And we should make healers feel rewarded.

SonOfAsura · August 8

No

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like this is falling into the "derp just nerf things that are OP" without looking at why things are OP and then adjusting those.

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

.

I Disagree tbh. core of flame helps a lot and important for PvE tanking and for solo builds and

It is not necessary.

I play a DK tank. I only play DK tank. And here's Xalvakka from our PB prog last week, which is basically a permablock fight:

No Core of Flame slotted. I just trust my healers instead.

This does go into another factor - healers should have a purpose beyond "I'm going to sit there and do nothing until someone is hurt." People all talk about how as healers, they feel undervalued. But a healer who helps with resources is what makes a healer great. And we should make healers feel rewarded.

Xalvakka isnt permablock fight for tank u only getting heavy charge attack from her thats it. Rest is roleplaying

TX12001rwb17_ESO · August 8

No

And make being a Vampire even more pointless?

You can make that change as long as you make subclassing only apply to class skills as well.

Luneca · August 8

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am genuinely surprised why only NB received those "save-guards"

It wasn't "only Nightblade".

Arcanist has a mastery that goes from 30% damage done to 15% in PvP.

Necromancer has a mastery entirely disabled in PvP.

That being said, Nightblade's reductions are pretty steep.

NB reductions are steep to keep them in the shadows.

Oh wait, ZOS is even nerfing that.

The class needs compensation.

Tonturri · August 8

Other

Other - I'm not sure there's a broad, once-size-fits-all solution here. One thing I've felt more keenly when playing classes like necro and arcanist is that there's less flexibility in using abilities outside class abilities (with the kind-of-exception of scribing abilities due to the class script) because stuff like weapon skills don't interact with class abilities.

That's fine on classes without class-based build/spend mechanics, but on necro the skull spammable generates corpses. Uppercut, meanwhile, does...Not. On arcanist, you're almost entirely locked to beam or magicka tentacles to spend crux, and I don't think I've seen a build recommended that goes outside that. Crux can be built using scribing skills, but if you dare to try and use a weapon skill you're making a heavy sacrifice right off the bat just due to its (lack of) interaction with class skills, and in most cases a lack of interaction with passives as well.

Balancing is tough, but I do think things like werewolves should see some benefit from class pick, otherwise it's - imo, of course - very boring. Class should matter, but weapon, guild, world, etc choices should also matter. Same for vampire.

Balancing is tough - but if it was easy everyone would do it and it wouldn't be worth paying for. Also, some masteries are blatantly overpowered (Conservation of Energy on Sorc) and some are good in PvE but obviously cut too harshly in PvP (Above and Beyond - 5% in PvP? Seriously?).

One example of a good interaction I like, though, is Calculated Defense on sorcerer and Uppercut. Calc Def applies to sorc abilities or an ability with a cast time, and there are only a few of those accessible on a pure sorc. This gives a unique interaction to Uppercut, which is something I enjoy and think should be kept around.

Now, could ZOS work class masteries to only be applicable to class skills? Yeah. They could do that and balance them around that. I don't think that's the way to go, though - people who want to play a pure sorc using weapon skills shouldn't be punished by having class masteries strictly limited to class skills. A sorcerer who likes to use more weapon skills than average, plus maybe vampire and a guild skill shouldn't have more limited benefit from class masteries, and that's both my personal preference (because technically if the devs are willing to do it and balance things that way it'll 'work'), but also it's probs not a good idea or a good investment of resources to try and balance every other skill around it.

Pure classes suddenly being much more locked to class skills because of class masteries? Alrighty, every non-class skill needs to be fiddled with now otherwise less will be worth using or fit into a build, and we already have that issue with arcanist and necro. I could actually use DW's Bloodthirst on a stam necro because it's a bit more flexible with corpse generation, but forget about it on arcanist.

spartaxoxo · August 9

No

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

tomofhyrule · August 9

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

Wuuffyy · August 9

Yes

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

But food, sets, and overall gear allow for near-infinite sustain and that’s okay??

Also, you do realize there are indeed other situations besides one where you’re a tank with a full team supporting you.

I’m not saying you’re completely wrong or anything regarding the individual power of core of flame (as, for what it is, it brings a lot more to the table than most skills do for their ‘goal’), however, it’s important to note that not every situation is optimized.

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Well, no s-. There are many realistic situations in the game that do not afford you that luxury that happen on a regular occurrence.

tomofhyrule · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

But food, sets, and overall gear allow for near-infinite sustain and that’s okay??

Also, you do realize there are indeed other situations besides one where you’re a tank with a full team supporting you.

I’m not saying you’re completely wrong or anything regarding the individual power of core of flame (as, for what it is, it brings a lot more to the table than most skills do for their ‘goal’), however, it’s important to note that not every situation is optimized.

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Well, no s-. There are many realistic situations in the game that do not afford you that luxury that happen on a regular occurrence.

Welcome to playing an MMORPG, where you need to make choices about your build.

No, you won't always be optimized. But this is also the current argument about Oakensoul - "I'm wearing a gear piece that will make it easy to solo things, so why are groups not allowing it?"

Players can build for the content they want. But they also need to realize that not all builds will be appropriate for all content. There's a fine line between "play the way you want!" and "this build is not meant for this content," and a lot of people don't realize which side they're sitting on.

The problem with balancing around "what if the players aren't optimized?" is then what ends up happening at the high end: you get groups who are very gatekeepy because they do optimize for everything, and as such you get those groups dealing insane damage and then not allowing anyone into their clique who doesn't parse 200k on a dummy. I've seen some stupid requests in rosters trying to eke out another 3 DPS to finish a boss 0.00000001s faster.

The problem also is that there is no mid-tier community. You can either struggle through normals, or play hypersweat trifectas. The mid-tiers left in U35 due to the nerfs... nerfs that came because there was a lot of inflation before and U35 was designed to reset everything (players don't like to get nerfed).

This is why skills shouldn't even come out imbalanced like this. We see that DK and Sorc Werewolves are entirely too powerful, and it's because of the sustain. Of course the people who crutch on that are resistant to changing that, because they're now playing in easy mode.

When one skill is essentially mandatory no matter what you're doing, that means there's something overloaded about it.

Wuuffyy · August 9

Yes

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

But food, sets, and overall gear allow for near-infinite sustain and that’s okay??

Also, you do realize there are indeed other situations besides one where you’re a tank with a full team supporting you.

I’m not saying you’re completely wrong or anything regarding the individual power of core of flame (as, for what it is, it brings a lot more to the table than most skills do for their ‘goal’), however, it’s important to note that not every situation is optimized.

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Well, no s-. There are many realistic situations in the game that do not afford you that luxury that happen on a regular occurrence.

Welcome to playing an MMORPG, where you need to make choices about your build.

No, you won't always be optimized. But this is also the current argument about Oakensoul - "I'm wearing a gear piece that will make it easy to solo things, so why are groups not allowing it?"

Players can build for the content they want. But they also need to realize that not all builds will be appropriate for all content. There's a fine line between "play the way you want!" and "this build is not meant for this content," and a lot of people don't realize which side they're sitting on.

The problem with balancing around "what if the players aren't optimized?" is then what ends up happening at the high end: you get groups who are very gatekeepy because they do optimize for everything, and as such you get those groups dealing insane damage and then not allowing anyone into their clique who doesn't parse 200k on a dummy. I've seen some stupid requests in rosters trying to eke out another 3 DPS to finish a boss 0.00000001s faster.

The problem also is that there is no mid-tier community. You can either struggle through normals, or play hypersweat trifectas. The mid-tiers left in U35 due to the nerfs... nerfs that came because there was a lot of inflation before and U35 was designed to reset everything (players don't like to get nerfed).

This is why skills shouldn't even come out imbalanced like this. We see that DK and Sorc Werewolves are entirely too powerful, and it's because of the sustain. Of course the people who crutch on that are resistant to changing that, because they're now playing in easy mode.

When one skill is essentially mandatory no matter what you're doing, that means there's something overloaded about it.

When groups are parsing 250k on the top-end in actual content for many DDs due to various buff sets and ball groups in PvP are essentially unkillable balls of ult spam- it gets to a point where I’m wondering why we’re even arguing what solo/small scale is capable of.

You said it yourself in that you don’t even use your pinnacle sustain move and yet your group carries all gaps for you.

This is the same silly and flawed logic where Berserker is borderline unviable when fighting small scale as the only solo werewolf but it’s suddenly nullified when I have a Packleader halfway across the Cyro map that I’m grouped with(???)

‘Oh well, but a group can do…’

Right but I’m more concerned with what I can do. I shouldn’t need a group just to hang in the most basic situations. I’m being a bit entitled for the following point but this MMO is clearly more geared to solo players than most yet many on the forums stress the importance of me needing multiple people to compensate for basic deficiencies.

tomofhyrule · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

But food, sets, and overall gear allow for near-infinite sustain and that’s okay??

Also, you do realize there are indeed other situations besides one where you’re a tank with a full team supporting you.

I’m not saying you’re completely wrong or anything regarding the individual power of core of flame (as, for what it is, it brings a lot more to the table than most skills do for their ‘goal’), however, it’s important to note that not every situation is optimized.

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Well, no s-. There are many realistic situations in the game that do not afford you that luxury that happen on a regular occurrence.

Welcome to playing an MMORPG, where you need to make choices about your build.

No, you won't always be optimized. But this is also the current argument about Oakensoul - "I'm wearing a gear piece that will make it easy to solo things, so why are groups not allowing it?"

Players can build for the content they want. But they also need to realize that not all builds will be appropriate for all content. There's a fine line between "play the way you want!" and "this build is not meant for this content," and a lot of people don't realize which side they're sitting on.

The problem with balancing around "what if the players aren't optimized?" is then what ends up happening at the high end: you get groups who are very gatekeepy because they do optimize for everything, and as such you get those groups dealing insane damage and then not allowing anyone into their clique who doesn't parse 200k on a dummy. I've seen some stupid requests in rosters trying to eke out another 3 DPS to finish a boss 0.00000001s faster.

The problem also is that there is no mid-tier community. You can either struggle through normals, or play hypersweat trifectas. The mid-tiers left in U35 due to the nerfs... nerfs that came because there was a lot of inflation before and U35 was designed to reset everything (players don't like to get nerfed).

This is why skills shouldn't even come out imbalanced like this. We see that DK and Sorc Werewolves are entirely too powerful, and it's because of the sustain. Of course the people who crutch on that are resistant to changing that, because they're now playing in easy mode.

When one skill is essentially mandatory no matter what you're doing, that means there's something overloaded about it.

When groups are parsing 250k on the top-end in actual content for many DDs due to various buff sets and ball groups in PvP are essentially unkillable balls of ult spam- it gets to a point where I’m wondering why we’re even arguing what solo/small scale is capable of.

You said it yourself in that you don’t even use your pinnacle sustain move and yet your group carries all gaps for you.

This is the same silly and flawed logic where Berserker is borderline unviable when fighting small scale as the only solo werewolf but it’s suddenly nullified when I have a Packleader halfway across the Cyro map that I’m grouped with(???)

‘Oh well, but a group can do…’

Right but I’m more concerned with what I can do. I shouldn’t need a group just to hang in the most basic situations. I’m being a bit entitled for the following point but this MMO is clearly more geared to solo players than most yet many on the forums stress the importance of me needing multiple people to compensate for basic deficiencies.

So, let's talk about your goals solo:

Do you want to sustain well?
Do you want to do a lot of damage?
Do you want to be very survivable?
Do you want to be able to heal well?

The problem is if anyone says "Yes, of course" to everything. In that case, you don't want an RPG, you want a Godmode game.

Now yes, I don't even use my magic sustain skill even when I'm solo. Why? Well, I'm still built like a tank. I have all heavy armor, a lot of mitigation, and all my points in health. I can shrug off everything, and that means I can heavy attack whenever I need resources. But I made a choice there: i hit like a wet noodle and my Companion does significantly more damage than me. But I'm not going to rage about it because I made choices in how I build.
Meanwhile, my werewolf character is all in on damage. But guess what: if I make one wrong move, he has the durability of wet tissue paper.

Choices.

Wuuffyy · August 9

Yes

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

But food, sets, and overall gear allow for near-infinite sustain and that’s okay??

Also, you do realize there are indeed other situations besides one where you’re a tank with a full team supporting you.

I’m not saying you’re completely wrong or anything regarding the individual power of core of flame (as, for what it is, it brings a lot more to the table than most skills do for their ‘goal’), however, it’s important to note that not every situation is optimized.

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Well, no s-. There are many realistic situations in the game that do not afford you that luxury that happen on a regular occurrence.

Welcome to playing an MMORPG, where you need to make choices about your build.

No, you won't always be optimized. But this is also the current argument about Oakensoul - "I'm wearing a gear piece that will make it easy to solo things, so why are groups not allowing it?"

Players can build for the content they want. But they also need to realize that not all builds will be appropriate for all content. There's a fine line between "play the way you want!" and "this build is not meant for this content," and a lot of people don't realize which side they're sitting on.

The problem with balancing around "what if the players aren't optimized?" is then what ends up happening at the high end: you get groups who are very gatekeepy because they do optimize for everything, and as such you get those groups dealing insane damage and then not allowing anyone into their clique who doesn't parse 200k on a dummy. I've seen some stupid requests in rosters trying to eke out another 3 DPS to finish a boss 0.00000001s faster.

The problem also is that there is no mid-tier community. You can either struggle through normals, or play hypersweat trifectas. The mid-tiers left in U35 due to the nerfs... nerfs that came because there was a lot of inflation before and U35 was designed to reset everything (players don't like to get nerfed).

This is why skills shouldn't even come out imbalanced like this. We see that DK and Sorc Werewolves are entirely too powerful, and it's because of the sustain. Of course the people who crutch on that are resistant to changing that, because they're now playing in easy mode.

When one skill is essentially mandatory no matter what you're doing, that means there's something overloaded about it.

When groups are parsing 250k on the top-end in actual content for many DDs due to various buff sets and ball groups in PvP are essentially unkillable balls of ult spam- it gets to a point where I’m wondering why we’re even arguing what solo/small scale is capable of.

You said it yourself in that you don’t even use your pinnacle sustain move and yet your group carries all gaps for you.

This is the same silly and flawed logic where Berserker is borderline unviable when fighting small scale as the only solo werewolf but it’s suddenly nullified when I have a Packleader halfway across the Cyro map that I’m grouped with(???)

‘Oh well, but a group can do…’

Right but I’m more concerned with what I can do. I shouldn’t need a group just to hang in the most basic situations. I’m being a bit entitled for the following point but this MMO is clearly more geared to solo players than most yet many on the forums stress the importance of me needing multiple people to compensate for basic deficiencies.

So, let's talk about your goals solo:

Do you want to sustain well?
Do you want to do a lot of damage?
Do you want to be very survivable?
Do you want to be able to heal well?

The problem is if anyone says "Yes, of course" to everything. In that case, you don't want an RPG, you want a Godmode game.

Now yes, I don't even use my magic sustain skill even when I'm solo. Why? Well, I'm still built like a tank. I have all heavy armor, a lot of mitigation, and all my points in health. I can shrug off everything, and that means I can heavy attack whenever I need resources. But I made a choice there: i hit like a wet noodle and my Companion does significantly more damage than me. But I'm not going to rage about it because I made choices in how I build.
Meanwhile, my werewolf character is all in on damage. But guess what: if I make one wrong move, he has the durability of wet tissue paper.

Choices.

You’re arguing upending the game completely for your RP fantasy when this:

Do you want to sustain well?
Do you want to do a lot of damage?
Do you want to be very survivable?
Do you want to be able to heal well?

…has been a thing now in PvP for a while. In fact, the pinnacle PvP builds for a while, even prior to pureclass reworks, have been the ones that ‘do it all’. This isn’t changing regardless of what is/isn’t done with werewolf, DK, pureclassing as a whole or subclassing. This is a fully moot point.

Likewise, in PvE, the meta in just about all content that isn’t a trial is 1 tank/ 3 DPS. No one would be happy if you suddenly told them ‘you can no longer live even should you choose to slot vigor as we have reduced your self-healing to make healers more relevant here’. People would lose their ever-loving minds thinking about how they have to rely on complete randoms or consistently group just to power through the most basic of content.

MSattrtand · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Looks like this jab was directed at me. I would address it.

Dunmer, tri-stat potions, green food, no Rampage, 6-mil dummy:

Dunmer, armour potions, green food, 0 fury at the start, 6-mil dummy:

Dunmer, tri-stat potions, green food, 0 fury at the start, 6-mil dummy:

Dunmer, tri-stat potions, green food, 0 fury at the start, 6-mil dummy, mag Werewolf:

Dunmer, armour potions, green food, full fury at the start, 6-mil dummy, mag Werewolf:

What can we tell from these graphs? Stam Werewolf's sustain is perfectly fine even without external group buffs - just use tools that the game gives you to sustain. Mag Werewolf's sustain is much worse, but completely playable after you get to your first Rampage - do not end up in the situation where you have to play in a heavily unoptimised group that doesn't provide sustain on a spec, that has tricky sustain. To save you asking: no, you won't be able to sustain stam on the mag werewolf in an unoptimised group in stam-intensive content. This is a sad reality: specs are not equal, and this affects not just a Werewolf, but other classes as well.

Wuuffyy · August 9

Yes

MSattrtand wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Looks like this jab was directed at me. I would address it.

Dunmer, tri-stat potions, green food, no Rampage, 6-mil dummy:

Dunmer, armour potions, green food, 0 fury at the start, 6-mil dummy:

Dunmer, tri-stat potions, green food, 0 fury at the start, 6-mil dummy:

Dunmer, tri-stat potions, green food, 0 fury at the start, 6-mil dummy, mag Werewolf:

Dunmer, armour potions, green food, full fury at the start, 6-mil dummy, mag Werewolf:

What can we tell from these graphs? Stam Werewolf's sustain is perfectly fine even without external group buffs - just use tools that the game gives you to sustain. Mag Werewolf's sustain is much worse, but completely playable after you get to your first Rampage - do not end up in the situation where you have to play in a heavily unoptimised group that doesn't provide sustain on a spec, that has tricky sustain. To save you asking: no, you won't be able to sustain stam on the mag werewolf in an unoptimised group in stam-intensive content. This is a sad reality: specs are not equal, and this affects not just a Werewolf, but other classes as well.

What is it with you forum posters thinking you’re being ‘jabbed’ at? Lightly referencing you (mostly because I don’t care to remember you’re name/you aren’t important to me) doesn’t mean I ‘cracked a shot at you’.

What you can do on a dummy, and what happens in actual content are 2 different concepts.

But your own graph points to inefficiencies when maintaining my stam on a mag build in an environment with little pressure/little downtime requires me reach and sufficiently maintain rampage at all times:

In addition, there are many more environments besides PvE alone. PvP is an area of that game that requires significantly more sustain to maintain and significantly more survivability to thrive in any capacity.

If your guy is doing this:

What is my guy doing when he’s in some content and has to roll and block or when he’s OW with 2 DKs on him (should I just roll over and die, do you think)?

Here is just one small excerpt where they mentioned much of what werewolf has being intended with a heavy focus on significantly viability for mag builds. That doesn’t just mean ‘mag builds in hyper end-game content with a competent group’- as a sidenote.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691059/pts-patch-notes-v12-0-0#latest

spartaxoxo · August 10

No

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

I responded to the idea sustain should be removed entirely. I never argued for infinite sustain. IDC if it gets a small nerf but I'd be pretty annoyed and probably abandon DK if it got deleted entirely. There's zero reason for that on the PvE end of things. It's not crazy over performing in PvE.

I'm over every unique thing in this game being removed. This game has lost class identity little by little constantly. It is actually okay for one class to have better sustain than the others. It is okay for each class to have something that is is far better than the others at doing. One of the most common reasons cited for people leaving this game is their build getting obliterated.

There should be reasons to bring every class beyond them passively offering some unique buff that only matters to the top 1%.

The gameplay has gotten flat and samey and to me a lot more boring precisely because of devs listening to suggestions that remove unique play styles from serious consideration entirely.

I'm so so so over it. Let every class have cool stuff that it is way better at than others. DK being great at sustain is fun. If it's too powerful for PvP that's the purpose of battle spirit.

evLRise · August 10

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What DK needs is for Core of Flame and its morphs to lose the resource regen, and for Corrosive to lose the mitigation. That won't affect PvE much, but it'll take them down to a normal level in PvP.

Yes, it would matter to PvE. I'm getting kinda sick of people saying it won't matter to PvE if something is completely removed from everyone's builds. They are great skills for solo play and PUGs. Well, I mostly use core but still. Nobody should need to know a great healer for their class to feel good to play.

Those skills are only too powerful in PvP. Just give them a battle spirit reduction.

The problem is that no skill should give infinite sustain. That is what's called an exploit.

I'm sure it wouldn't affect PvP at all if they added a "does 100000000 damage to monsters in a 100m radius" skill. But would that be an appropriate addition to the game?

No skills should allow infinite regen. Otherwise, this game should work on a cooldown system.

But food, sets, and overall gear allow for near-infinite sustain and that’s okay??

Also, you do realize there are indeed other situations besides one where you’re a tank with a full team supporting you.

I’m not saying you’re completely wrong or anything regarding the individual power of core of flame (as, for what it is, it brings a lot more to the table than most skills do for their ‘goal’), however, it’s important to note that not every situation is optimized.

It’s the same logic in saying ‘well on the target dummy where I have a metric ton of simulated sustain, my Breton werewolf totally does fine after rampage next patch’.

Well, no s-. There are many realistic situations in the game that do not afford you that luxury that happen on a regular occurrence.

In general a skill is strong when it provides 2/3 out of damage, sustain and tankiness. Heart of Flame does all 3 by absurd margins.

I think people don't realize just how OP infinite sustain is.

On my nightblade I have to run Orzorga's, sustained by suffering, tripots and spam some Siphoning Strikes once in a while. Let's say once every CC immunity window.

1 siphoning cast is -4000 HP so ~-500 HPS
Without needing tripots I can run armor pots for +6000 armor.
Without sustained by suffering I can run fortified for ~1.5k armor.
Without Orzorga I can run sugar skulls for 4k stam & mag.
Without several well fitted i can run 6x impen for 10% crit resist.
Unlike a DK, I have less burst, less heals, -7.5k armor, -4.5k stam and mag, -500 HPS, -10% crit resist, so I deal ~8% less damage from max resources, all while having worse skills, -10% HPs, -11.5% tankiness from armor, -3% tankiness from crit res, AND i have to waste 1/8 of my GCDs for sustain, since my sustain skill doesn't naturally heal me and lines up with my burst. Assuming the 1/8 casts for siphoning would normally be split 50/50 between heals and damage, that's 1/16 casts lost when it comes to heals for 6.25% less healing and 6.25% less damage for wasting 1/16 damage GCDs.

So we end up with
~15% less healing done
~15% less damage done
~15% more damage taken.

These stats are better than both my 5-piece effects combined. So a DK would need to fight me naked to feel fair. Exact same logic applies to sorc where you fix sustain naturally from 1 passive. Yep. Perfectly balanced.

Soarora · August 10

No

I’ve had enough with the nerf threads and I genuinely don’t think PvPers will ever be happy. It’s constant. There will always be nerf threads. Of course, I understand there are problems like heal stacking and too much tankiness that should be addressed but I really think the counter to werewolf should be major timidity, fighters guild skills, and poison damage, not decoupling it from class mastery. Nerf werewolf that way: timidity is doubled against them and poison/fighters guild damage taken is increased further than it is now.

Wuuffyy · August 10

Yes

Soarora wrote: »

I’ve had enough with the nerf threads and I genuinely don’t think PvPers will ever be happy. It’s constant. There will always be nerf threads. Of course, I understand there are problems like heal stacking and too much tankiness that should be addressed but I really think the counter to werewolf should be major timidity, fighters guild skills, and poison damage, not decoupling it from class mastery. Nerf werewolf that way: timidity is doubled against them and poison/fighters guild damage taken is increased further than it is now.

I would have preferred that too. Oh well, their go to is ‘destroy’.

It’s no surprise people saw the egregious nerfs on werewolf and said ‘ooop, look now I’ll make a ‘nerf DK’ thread every hour on the hour’.

Not sure how ZOS didn’t see this one coming, won’t lie.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Limit Class Masteries to only work with Class abilities?

Limit Class Masteries to only work with Class abilities? 82 votes