acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not


Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Your rip and tear is averaging 3K HPS and your Blood magic 2K but I’m suppose to imagine that you’re actually pulling ‘20k’ in any viable and consistent manner with this while doing ‘7K DPS’ to a competent player with proper gear on?

Anyways, here is a video I just made in IC where I walked around and just bit things (minus the first add):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/tBuJC9Crdy

(p.s. I think I found one of your ‘good DKs’ about halfway in the clip)

I’m hitting for 5k non-crits and 8k crits. This is in 5 piece heavy with all-gold gear and strapped to the Nine with procs sets and damage sets galore (I.E ~oooh actual potential DPS).

The only way to feasibly increase this healing is to continuously lose damage on various fronts:

-CP swap out, healing for damage CP
-on a flag
-health-based gear
-and more (all resulting in further damage loss).

I have testimony and have fought many on PTS who say my damage is ‘similar to Pelican’s’ and that is likely so given that I LA bash weave everything, keep dots up, and keep damage up along with my own health in ‘high damage’ gear.

Mate, my maximum healing numbers are almost always dictated by how much dps a build can dish out on average on me.

If a build is doing 4k dps, my healing can not be higher than 4k. If a build is doing 6k dps, my healing can not be higher than 6k.

I am, almost at all times, overhealing an incredible amount. That is normal, that is why you see an average 2-3k heal on your rip and tears some times. I can assure you the way to increase your healing is not by going all in on defensive options. It is by going all in on offensive ones. I am not running a single defensive set, i am not running a defensive mundus. Hell, im not even running much defensive blue cps.

That is why im doing 7k+ dps. That is why im not having any trouble vs dks. I feel like there is a disconnect here, i keep telling you my anectodal experience as i see it and you keep objecting to it for some reason and saying it must be false.

I honestly have no idea what to tell you, it isnt.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Your rip and tear is averaging 3K HPS and your Blood magic 2K but I’m suppose to imagine that you’re actually pulling ‘20k’ in any viable and consistent manner with this while doing ‘7K DPS’ to a competent player with proper gear on?

Anyways, here is a video I just made in IC where I walked around and just bit things (minus the first add):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/tBuJC9Crdy

(p.s. I think I found one of your ‘good DKs’ about halfway in the clip)

I’m hitting for 5k non-crits and 8k crits. This is in 5 piece heavy with all-gold gear and strapped to the Nine with procs sets and damage sets galore (I.E ~oooh actual potential DPS).

The only way to feasibly increase this healing is to continuously lose damage on various fronts:

-CP swap out, healing for damage CP
-on a flag
-health-based gear
-and more (all resulting in further damage loss).

I have testimony and have fought many on PTS who say my damage is ‘similar to Pelican’s’ and that is likely so given that I LA bash weave everything, keep dots up, and keep damage up along with my own health in ‘high damage’ gear.

Mate, my maximum healing numbers are almost always dictated by how much dps a build can dish out on average on me.

If a build is doing 4k dps, my healing can not be higher than 4k. If a build is doing 6k dps, my healing can not be higher than 6k.

I am, almost at all times, overhealing an incredible amount. That is normal, that is why you see an average 2-3k heal on your rip and tears some times. I can assure you the way to increase your healing is not by going all in on defensive options. It is by going all in on offensive ones. I am not running a single defensive set, i am not running a defensive mundus. Hell, im not even running much defensive blue cps.

That is why im doing 7k+ dps. That is why im not having any trouble vs dks. I feel like there is a disconnect here, i keep telling you my anectodal experience as i see it and you keep objecting to it for some reason and saying it must be false.

I honestly have no idea what to tell you, it isnt.

Brother, increasing my actual damage does not constitute a magical doubling of my rip and tear heal that scales off of health…

What kind of world do we live in where you see a tooltip that scales off health and then you say ‘well, when I add more damage’ that goes up.

You maybe mean ‘bite more’ but even then, that doesn’t magically increase my max heal from rip and tear by 50-100%.

Against the best of the best during full-blow Signet Warden PTS, I believe @Yarcanine mentioned were doing 6K DPS on a full build against Pelican. I have nearly no doubt they are a better player than you by a mile. Even now, against a competent player in an actual fight that number would be lower.

So now you’re telling me you are supposedly killing the ‘best of the best DKs’ with ease while doing 7K DPS and having a rip and tear maximum of 50-100% of my own healing? That sir/maddam, is a lie.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Your rip and tear is averaging 3K HPS and your Blood magic 2K but I’m suppose to imagine that you’re actually pulling ‘20k’ in any viable and consistent manner with this while doing ‘7K DPS’ to a competent player with proper gear on?

Anyways, here is a video I just made in IC where I walked around and just bit things (minus the first add):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/tBuJC9Crdy

(p.s. I think I found one of your ‘good DKs’ about halfway in the clip)

I’m hitting for 5k non-crits and 8k crits. This is in 5 piece heavy with all-gold gear and strapped to the Nine with procs sets and damage sets galore (I.E ~oooh actual potential DPS).

The only way to feasibly increase this healing is to continuously lose damage on various fronts:

-CP swap out, healing for damage CP
-on a flag
-health-based gear
-and more (all resulting in further damage loss).

I have testimony and have fought many on PTS who say my damage is ‘similar to Pelican’s’ and that is likely so given that I LA bash weave everything, keep dots up, and keep damage up along with my own health in ‘high damage’ gear.

Mate, my maximum healing numbers are almost always dictated by how much dps a build can dish out on average on me.

If a build is doing 4k dps, my healing can not be higher than 4k. If a build is doing 6k dps, my healing can not be higher than 6k.

I am, almost at all times, overhealing an incredible amount. That is normal, that is why you see an average 2-3k heal on your rip and tears some times. I can assure you the way to increase your healing is not by going all in on defensive options. It is by going all in on offensive ones. I am not running a single defensive set, i am not running a defensive mundus. Hell, im not even running much defensive blue cps.

That is why im doing 7k+ dps. That is why im not having any trouble vs dks. I feel like there is a disconnect here, i keep telling you my anectodal experience as i see it and you keep objecting to it for some reason and saying it must be false.

I honestly have no idea what to tell you, it isnt.

Brother, increasing my actual damage does not constitute a magical doubling of my rip and tear heal that scales off of health…

What kind of world do we live in where you see a tooltip that scales off health and then you say ‘well, when I add more damage’ that goes up.

You maybe mean ‘bite more’ but even then, that doesn’t magically increase my max heal from rip and tear by 50-100%.

Against the best of the best during full-blow Signet Warden PTS, I believe @Yarcanine mentioned were doing 6K DPS on a full build against Pelican. I have nearly no doubt they are a better player than you by a mile. Even now, against a competent player in an actual fight that number would be lower.

So now you’re telling me you are supposedly killing the ‘best of the best DKs’ with ease while doing 7K DPS and having a rip and tear maximum of 50-100% of my own healing? That sir/maddam, is a lie.

I'll leave you with the knowledge that it does, finding out how is probably how you get your ww build up to par. Have fun

I want the copy of the game that fantastically doubles my defensive capabilities for free- preferably the one you have.

Wanna PTS duel later?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Your rip and tear is averaging 3K HPS and your Blood magic 2K but I’m suppose to imagine that you’re actually pulling ‘20k’ in any viable and consistent manner with this while doing ‘7K DPS’ to a competent player with proper gear on?

Anyways, here is a video I just made in IC where I walked around and just bit things (minus the first add):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/tBuJC9Crdy

(p.s. I think I found one of your ‘good DKs’ about halfway in the clip)

I’m hitting for 5k non-crits and 8k crits. This is in 5 piece heavy with all-gold gear and strapped to the Nine with procs sets and damage sets galore (I.E ~oooh actual potential DPS).

The only way to feasibly increase this healing is to continuously lose damage on various fronts:

-CP swap out, healing for damage CP
-on a flag
-health-based gear
-and more (all resulting in further damage loss).

I have testimony and have fought many on PTS who say my damage is ‘similar to Pelican’s’ and that is likely so given that I LA bash weave everything, keep dots up, and keep damage up along with my own health in ‘high damage’ gear.

Mate, my maximum healing numbers are almost always dictated by how much dps a build can dish out on average on me.

If a build is doing 4k dps, my healing can not be higher than 4k. If a build is doing 6k dps, my healing can not be higher than 6k.

I am, almost at all times, overhealing an incredible amount. That is normal, that is why you see an average 2-3k heal on your rip and tears some times. I can assure you the way to increase your healing is not by going all in on defensive options. It is by going all in on offensive ones. I am not running a single defensive set, i am not running a defensive mundus. Hell, im not even running much defensive blue cps.

That is why im doing 7k+ dps. That is why im not having any trouble vs dks. I feel like there is a disconnect here, i keep telling you my anectodal experience as i see it and you keep objecting to it for some reason and saying it must be false.

I honestly have no idea what to tell you, it isnt.

Brother, increasing my actual damage does not constitute a magical doubling of my rip and tear heal that scales off of health…

What kind of world do we live in where you see a tooltip that scales off health and then you say ‘well, when I add more damage’ that goes up.

You maybe mean ‘bite more’ but even then, that doesn’t magically increase my max heal from rip and tear by 50-100%.

Against the best of the best during full-blow Signet Warden PTS, I believe @Yarcanine mentioned were doing 6K DPS on a full build against Pelican. I have nearly no doubt they are a better player than you by a mile. Even now, against a competent player in an actual fight that number would be lower.

So now you’re telling me you are supposedly killing the ‘best of the best DKs’ with ease while doing 7K DPS and having a rip and tear maximum of 50-100% of my own healing? That sir/maddam, is a lie.

I'll leave you with the knowledge that it does, finding out how is probably how you get your ww build up to par. Have fun

I want the copy of the game that fantastically doubles my defensive capabilities for free- preferably the one you have.

Wanna PTS duel later?

Sure, but i have a trial in around 20 minutes. Tomorrow sounds fine?

If I’m not busy, sounds good to me later in the PM. Start by trying to add me, should be the same tag.

gammelscroll wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Your rip and tear is averaging 3K HPS and your Blood magic 2K but I’m suppose to imagine that you’re actually pulling ‘20k’ in any viable and consistent manner with this while doing ‘7K DPS’ to a competent player with proper gear on?

Anyways, here is a video I just made in IC where I walked around and just bit things (minus the first add):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/tBuJC9Crdy

(p.s. I think I found one of your ‘good DKs’ about halfway in the clip)

I’m hitting for 5k non-crits and 8k crits. This is in 5 piece heavy with all-gold gear and strapped to the Nine with procs sets and damage sets galore (I.E ~oooh actual potential DPS).

The only way to feasibly increase this healing is to continuously lose damage on various fronts:

-CP swap out, healing for damage CP
-on a flag
-health-based gear
-and more (all resulting in further damage loss).

I have testimony and have fought many on PTS who say my damage is ‘similar to Pelican’s’ and that is likely so given that I LA bash weave everything, keep dots up, and keep damage up along with my own health in ‘high damage’ gear.

Mate, my maximum healing numbers are almost always dictated by how much dps a build can dish out on average on me.

If a build is doing 4k dps, my healing can not be higher than 4k. If a build is doing 6k dps, my healing can not be higher than 6k.

I am, almost at all times, overhealing an incredible amount. That is normal, that is why you see an average 2-3k heal on your rip and tears some times. I can assure you the way to increase your healing is not by going all in on defensive options. It is by going all in on offensive ones. I am not running a single defensive set, i am not running a defensive mundus. Hell, im not even running much defensive blue cps.

That is why im doing 7k+ dps. That is why im not having any trouble vs dks. I feel like there is a disconnect here, i keep telling you my anectodal experience as i see it and you keep objecting to it for some reason and saying it must be false.

I honestly have no idea what to tell you, it isnt.

Brother, increasing my actual damage does not constitute a magical, potential doubling of my rip and tear heal that scales off of health…

What kind of world do we live in where you see a tooltip that scales off health and then you say ‘well, when I add more damage’ that goes up.

You maybe mean ‘bite more’ but even then, that doesn’t magically increase my max heal from rip and tear by 50-100%.

Against the best of the best during full-blow Signet Warden PTS, I believe @Yarcanine mentioned they were doing 6K DPS on a full build against Pelican. I have nearly no doubt they are a better player than you by a mile. Even now, against a competent player in an actual fight that number would be lower.

So now you’re telling me you are supposedly killing the ‘best of the best DKs’ with ease while doing 7K DPS and having a rip and tear maximum of 50-100% more than my own healing in heavy armor with 43k health? That sir/maddam, is a lie.

I agree in this. I played ww for many years. I fought really good DKs in cyro and duels. I play Savage werewolf with gorethief. And in PvP its really hard to keep dps uptume.cause of block /roll Dodge etc.

My avarage dps vs good DKs are around 3k, DKs do 6k on me.
Average rip and tear heal in a PvP scenario is around 4-8k. And i promise you that is not enough to sustain DKs burst dmg. When i see take flight come i block, Dodge roll, heal 2 times and then back to rip and tear.

what that other guy acanaca says is not true. Its not possible to keep up 7k Dps on DK while rip and tear heal for 15k lul

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

Thats a build issue more than anything,

Here is how my heals usually look like

(well thats a bit of an old one actually, i now do around 14k+ heals from rip and tear.)

And here is what my damage usually looks like



This was today vs a pretty fun maarselok sea serpent sorcerer and i was just using my regular bg build.

I think i literally never had a single game or duel where rip and tear wasnt the top heal.

Either you guys are playing ww wrong (which i doubt you can because the floor and ceiling is the same for ww), or more likely you guys have no idea how to build ww right

Which server are you on?

I agree that we play differently. I don't play Werewolf the traditional way. I play a bash werewolf.
There are definitely wrong ways to play and build a werewolf. The floor was definitely raised, but the ceiling is still higher. They aren't the same.

acanca wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

Thats a build issue more than anything,

Here is how my heals usually look like

(well thats a bit of an old one actually, i now do around 14k+ heals from rip and tear.)

And here is what my damage usually looks like



This was today vs a pretty fun maarselok sea serpent sorcerer and i was just using my regular bg build.

I think i literally never had a single game or duel where rip and tear wasnt the top heal.

Either you guys are playing ww wrong (which i doubt you can because the floor and ceiling is the same for ww), or more likely you guys have no idea how to build ww right

Which server are you on?

I agree that we play differently. I don't play Werewolf the traditional way. I play a bash werewolf.
There are definitely wrong ways to play and build a werewolf. The floor was definitely raised, but the ceiling is still higher. They aren't the same.

Eu pc, i think bash ww is a bit common, it absolutely makes sense that rip and tear isnt your highest heal with that in mind tho. Bash ww works and is a pretty strong build but its also the hardest way to play mechanically because if you miss a rip and tear due to bashing too much your survivability suffers. Would be happy to have a few spars if you are pc eu too

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

You wonderful people discard and discredit solutions that don’t align with your perspective. I’m of the rightful mindset that werewolf should come out of a power-adjustment rework stronger than before it started. My tooltips have lost damage, such as 25% or more from my spammable, uptime on my claw dot, a 20-40% dps reduction in my berserker bleed dot along with a hefty reduction in uptime, and up to a 43% (citing another user here) reduction in my burst heal option, fortitude, since this rework and this PTS launch.

With that being said, and to avoid more aimless destruction that serves to make werewolf unviable, yet again, here is my own take on this exact matter:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

Huh what people? I'm a werewolf main.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

You wonderful people discard and discredit solutions that don’t align with your perspective. I’m of the rightful mindset that werewolf should come out of a power-adjustment rework stronger than before it started. My tooltips have lost damage, such as 25% or more from my spammable, uptime on my claw dot, a 20-40% dps reduction in my berserker bleed dot along with a hefty reduction in uptime, and up to a 43% (citing another user here) reduction in my burst heal option, fortitude, since this rework and this PTS launch.

With that being said, and to avoid more aimless destruction that serves to make werewolf unviable, yet again, here is my own take on this exact matter:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

Huh what people? I'm a werewolf main.

That’s the beauty of generalities, it’s up to you to decide

Forum rules and social etiquette (to a much lesser extent) prevent me from directly tagging those I’d specifically consider to be in that ‘camp’.

Hekk, I’d love to pull pins and comments from all to demonstrate clearly where people stand and how malleable to any idea outside of their own perspective, but I can’t- alas ‘da rules.

Oh well, instead of that I’ll just wait for this nerf, then that nerf, then that new nerf, nothing in return, and then another nerf; I’ll do it all watching a player with no relevancy 2-shot whoever they please on a DK all the way up until Warden rework for when they’ll very likely do it also.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Your rip and tear is averaging 3K HPS and your Blood magic 2K but I’m suppose to imagine that you’re actually pulling ‘20k’ in any viable and consistent manner with this while doing ‘7K DPS’ to a competent player with proper gear on?

Anyways, here is a video I just made in IC where I walked around and just bit things (minus the first add):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/tBuJC9Crdy

(p.s. I think I found one of your ‘good DKs’ about halfway in the clip)

I’m hitting for 5k non-crits and 8k crits. This is in 5 piece heavy with all-gold gear and strapped to the Nine with procs sets and damage sets galore (I.E ~oooh actual potential DPS).

The only way to feasibly increase this healing is to continuously lose damage on various fronts:

-CP swap out, healing for damage CP
-on a flag
-health-based gear
-and more (all resulting in further damage loss).

I have testimony and have fought many on PTS who say my damage is ‘similar to Pelican’s’ and that is likely so given that I LA bash weave everything, keep dots up, and keep damage up along with my own health in ‘high damage’ gear.

Mate, my maximum healing numbers are almost always dictated by how much dps a build can dish out on average on me.

If a build is doing 4k dps, my healing can not be higher than 4k. If a build is doing 6k dps, my healing can not be higher than 6k.

I am, almost at all times, overhealing an incredible amount. That is normal, that is why you see an average 2-3k heal on your rip and tears some times. I can assure you the way to increase your healing is not by going all in on defensive options. It is by going all in on offensive ones. I am not running a single defensive set, i am not running a defensive mundus. Hell, im not even running much defensive blue cps.

That is why im doing 7k+ dps. That is why im not having any trouble vs dks. I feel like there is a disconnect here, i keep telling you my anectodal experience as i see it and you keep objecting to it for some reason and saying it must be false.

I honestly have no idea what to tell you, it isnt.

Brother, increasing my actual damage does not constitute a magical doubling of my rip and tear heal that scales off of health…

What kind of world do we live in where you see a tooltip that scales off health and then you say ‘well, when I add more damage’ that goes up.

You maybe mean ‘bite more’ but even then, that doesn’t magically increase my max heal from rip and tear by 50-100%.

Against the best of the best during full-blow Signet Warden PTS, I believe @Yarcanine mentioned were doing 6K DPS on a full build against Pelican. I have nearly no doubt they are a better player than you by a mile. Even now, against a competent player in an actual fight that number would be lower.

So now you’re telling me you are supposedly killing the ‘best of the best DKs’ with ease while doing 7K DPS and having a rip and tear maximum of 50-100% of my own healing? That sir/maddam, is a lie.

I'll leave you with the knowledge that it does, finding out how is probably how you get your ww build up to par. Have fun

I want the copy of the game that fantastically doubles my defensive capabilities for free- preferably the one you have.

Wanna PTS duel later?

Sure, but i have a trial in around 20 minutes. Tomorrow sounds fine?

If I’m not busy, sounds good to me later in the PM. Start by trying to add me, should be the same tag.

Trial is over, are you free?

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Your rip and tear is averaging 3K HPS and your Blood magic 2K but I’m suppose to imagine that you’re actually pulling ‘20k’ in any viable and consistent manner with this while doing ‘7K DPS’ to a competent player with proper gear on?

Anyways, here is a video I just made in IC where I walked around and just bit things (minus the first add):

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/tBuJC9Crdy

(p.s. I think I found one of your ‘good DKs’ about halfway in the clip)

I’m hitting for 5k non-crits and 8k crits. This is in 5 piece heavy with all-gold gear and strapped to the Nine with procs sets and damage sets galore (I.E ~oooh actual potential DPS).

The only way to feasibly increase this healing is to continuously lose damage on various fronts:

-CP swap out, healing for damage CP
-on a flag
-health-based gear
-and more (all resulting in further damage loss).

I have testimony and have fought many on PTS who say my damage is ‘similar to Pelican’s’ and that is likely so given that I LA bash weave everything, keep dots up, and keep damage up along with my own health in ‘high damage’ gear.

Mate, my maximum healing numbers are almost always dictated by how much dps a build can dish out on average on me.

If a build is doing 4k dps, my healing can not be higher than 4k. If a build is doing 6k dps, my healing can not be higher than 6k.

I am, almost at all times, overhealing an incredible amount. That is normal, that is why you see an average 2-3k heal on your rip and tears some times. I can assure you the way to increase your healing is not by going all in on defensive options. It is by going all in on offensive ones. I am not running a single defensive set, i am not running a defensive mundus. Hell, im not even running much defensive blue cps.

That is why im doing 7k+ dps. That is why im not having any trouble vs dks. I feel like there is a disconnect here, i keep telling you my anectodal experience as i see it and you keep objecting to it for some reason and saying it must be false.

I honestly have no idea what to tell you, it isnt.

Brother, increasing my actual damage does not constitute a magical doubling of my rip and tear heal that scales off of health…

What kind of world do we live in where you see a tooltip that scales off health and then you say ‘well, when I add more damage’ that goes up.

You maybe mean ‘bite more’ but even then, that doesn’t magically increase my max heal from rip and tear by 50-100%.

Against the best of the best during full-blow Signet Warden PTS, I believe @Yarcanine mentioned were doing 6K DPS on a full build against Pelican. I have nearly no doubt they are a better player than you by a mile. Even now, against a competent player in an actual fight that number would be lower.

So now you’re telling me you are supposedly killing the ‘best of the best DKs’ with ease while doing 7K DPS and having a rip and tear maximum of 50-100% of my own healing? That sir/maddam, is a lie.

I'll leave you with the knowledge that it does, finding out how is probably how you get your ww build up to par. Have fun

I want the copy of the game that fantastically doubles my defensive capabilities for free- preferably the one you have.

Wanna PTS duel later?

Sure, but i have a trial in around 20 minutes. Tomorrow sounds fine?

If I’m not busy, sounds good to me later in the PM. Start by trying to add me, should be the same tag.

Trial is over, are you free?

Yea, I’m free now basically. I can’t whisper you here it seems or I would have long since continued the convo in DMs.

Yea just meeting up is proving a bit challenging. Are you free now