Current Sustain Changes and Necesary Adjustments for Werewolf

acanca · August 9

Werewolf, specifically sorcerer werewolf with Conservation of Energy class mastery is overperforming in pvp due to an overabundance of sustain and healing in live servers.

This is mainly because of two things.
1-Conservation of Energy offers too much sustain and healing. This class mastery by itself makes it so without using any sustain food, any sustain mundus, or sustain potions or sustain sets, sorcerer werewolfs still have an overabundance of sustain. Rest of the werewolf builds on other classes have no such privilege and werewolf on other classes are strong without being overbearing and can run out of sustain and die like any one else (except for dk and sorcerer).
2-Rip and Tear has an extremely strong self heal attached that makes werewolf at times, unfair. When built right a werewolf can sometimes have battle ground games and duels where it doesnt even use Hircine's Fortitude a single time. In fact whenever i find myself using Hircine's Fortitude, its usually in order to restore stamina instead of actually healing.

I am of the opinion that the Zos team has correctly identified that sustain and healing are a problem for werewolf.

But, targeting Hircine's Fortitude in order to reduce the healing will not really solve the werewolf self healing problem because Hircine's Fortitude has never been the main issue for werewolf. It was always the self heal on Rip and Tear.
And that the sustain problem for werewolf was never a werewolf problem, it has always been a conservation of energy class mastery problem, the sustain for werewolf on other classes has always been healthy.

So in conclusion, the proposed changes for werewolf will unfortunately not make self healing less of an issue for werewolf and it will not make sorcerer werewolf unplayable. The sustain nerfs are noticeable on sorcerer but thanks to Conservation of Energy the build is absolutely fine and thanks to Rip and Tear, the healing is still absolutely fine.

What will happen is that it will be impossible to play werewolf for pvp when not playing sorcerer. And when Conservation of Energy inevitably gets adjusted down the line because it absolutely needs adjusting for pvp, there will not be a single viable werewolf build left that can be played.

Nerfing werewolf around Conservation of Energy Sorcerer Werewolf is in my opinion a mistake. I think a more appropriate way to adjust werewolf is a more targeted nerf. With that in mind, i would suggest reverting the sustain cost changes for werewolf, nerfing the heal on Rip and Tear by around 30%, buffing the heal on Hircine's Fortitude. And, if it can be arranged, toning down both Conservation of Energy class mastery for Sorcerer and Core of Flame skill for DK to give half of the sustain they currently give with battle spirit active.

Because here is the thing, there is absolutely a healing problem for werewolf. But the problem is Rip and Tear specifically. And there is absolutely a sustain problem in pvp, and that problem is specifically Conservation of Energy And Core of Flame. This small changes would in my opinion be healthy for the overall balance and enjoyement of the game.

dark_hunterxmg · August 9

Well, you'd be wrong, but only partially. Werewolf should have the same sustain as any reworked class. If Dragon Knight gets great sustain, so should Werewolf. If Conservation of Energy is too strong for Werewolf then it is too strong for Sorcerer too.

You are right about the heal on Rip and Tear being strong(only if you have a target). It isn't too strong though. If that heal gets reduced then Hircine's Fortitude needs to be stronger(it should anyway). When I say stronger, I mean U49 strong, but not costing the ridiculous 5700mag. Werewolf healing is very limited and two of the potential healing sources require and enemy target. Blood Claws rarely finds its target. It's not like we can slot other heals.

Werewolf gets twelve skills to choose from. Only six of those get to be used. Anyone else gets hundreds to chose from.

Every human class gets access to Vigor, and Sorcerer gets access to blood magic too. A Sorcerer using Vigor will get over 4k healing per second through vigor and blood magic, plus shields, burst heals, and cross heals. Werewolf doesn't get all of that. Werewolf only gets a small portion of that.

We are right to compare Werewolf to Dragon Knight since they are the only two reworked classes. The best Werewolf in the game can fight not-the-best Dragon Knight in the game and have a stalemate. Dragon Knight is the new standard. Werewolf is not overperforming. It is performing almost as good as Dragon Knight minus the utility, healing, and burst damage. It is performing almost as good as Sorcerer, minus the healing, shielding, burst damage, and mobility.

Werewolf finally got taken out of meme status after 7+ years and now they're trying to put it back because people are upset that it can do what they've been doing this whole time.

dark_hunterxmg · August 9

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

acanca · August 9

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

Thats a build issue more than anything,

Here is how my heals usually look like

(well thats a bit of an old one actually, i now do around 14k+ heals from rip and tear.)

And here is what my damage usually looks like

This was today vs a pretty fun maarselok sea serpent sorcerer and i was just using my regular bg build.

I think i literally never had a single game or duel where rip and tear wasnt the top heal.

Either you guys are playing ww wrong (which i doubt you can because the floor and ceiling is the same for ww), or more likely you guys have no idea how to build ww right

acanca · August 9

Hircines healed less than base regen in that one btw, i think it heals less nowadays because frankly i cast it less.

Wuuffyy · August 9

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

The fact your top healing and sustain are coming from a single mastery and instead of ever thinking about adjusting that mastery or general access to masteries they just double/ and triple costs and reduce healing for fortitude (up to a 43% reduction now from pre-rework on the only on-demand heal; so a stronger heal when we were obviously terrible beyond comprehension)…

…in all the areas that mastery affects, is actually in many ways hilarious.

CoE gives the following

-High, sustained HPS
-High, sustained Mag
-High, sustained Stam

Their nerfs

-On-demand healing reduction (again, have to repeat that it is now working on being half of its formal self from when we were considered to be objectively terrible)

-increased mag and stam costs.

Of course (once again) all affecting PvE (especially difficult solo and 4-man content) despite them mentioning they were ‘happy’ with the state of werewolf in PvE.

Chrlynsch · August 9

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

acanca · August 9

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Wuuffyy · August 9

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

You are not fighting the best of the best DKs on your server and winning consistently.

No one in their right mind on a DK is losing to a werewolf when they have infinite bi-stat sustain through, can turtle up on their back bar with 40% block mit via passives and masteries alone, and can pop 1 of 2 ults with easy access to minor heroism (and potentially Bloodspawn) that will give them the ability to 2-shot you should you make any mistakes.

Stalemating, sure. Winning… those aren’t good DKs. Good players can win fights where they are at a disadvantage; mathematically advantaged… a good DK has that all day/every day.

acanca · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

You are not fighting the best of the best DK on your server and winning consistently.

No one in their right mind on a DK is losing to a werewolf when they have infinite bi-stat sustain through, can turtle up on their back bar with 40% block mit via passives and masteries alone, and can pop 1 of 2 ults with easy access to minor heroism (and potentially BS) that will give them the ability to 2-shot you should you make any mistakes.

Stalemating, sure. Winning… those aren’t good DKs. Good players can win fights where they are mathematically advantage… DK has that.

I'm aware of everything you said but the fact remains that when built right a ww has really good st damage. Even for a dk with really good block mitigation 7k+ sustained dps is 7k+ sustained dps.

I sometimes run into the type of dk that stalemates me easily but they are also the type that can never kill me. Again, i understand why you think dks can easily stalemate ww because their block mitigation is good.

But the fact of the matter is that dks can easily stalemate you because you most likely do little damage. Most of them tend to last around 1-2 minutes max in my opinion even with their ability to perma block. You can say they arent the best dks and for sure, i agree but they are the sweaty dk duelers in Alikr and that probably puts them up there in terms of skill. There are ww builds out there that can do 7k+ dps for 15 minutes vs duelers, i just posted a screenshot of me doing that.

Again, this is a build issue more than a player skill issue. I'm not a good player, im at most average. And in most of my duels i get 7k+ to high 8k damage. I can expect to pressure a dk, a build that regularly does around, i dunno how much you guys are doing, 4-5kish, isnt built well enough to get a kill on a regular dk and can probably get stalemated.

Again, most of your issues with ww are build issues most likely.

Wuuffyy · August 9

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

You are not fighting the best of the best DK on your server and winning consistently.

No one in their right mind on a DK is losing to a werewolf when they have infinite bi-stat sustain through, can turtle up on their back bar with 40% block mit via passives and masteries alone, and can pop 1 of 2 ults with easy access to minor heroism (and potentially BS) that will give them the ability to 2-shot you should you make any mistakes.

Stalemating, sure. Winning… those aren’t good DKs. Good players can win fights where they are mathematically advantage… DK has that.

I'm aware of everything you said but the fact remains that when built right a ww has really good st damage. Even for a dk with really good block mitigation 7k+ sustained dps is 7k+ sustained dps.

I sometimes run into the type of dk that stalemates me easily but they are also the type that can never kill me. Again, i understand why you think dks can easily stalemate ww because their block mitigation is good.

But the fact of the matter is that dks can easily stalemate you because you most likely do little damage. Most of them tend to last around 1-2 minutes max in my opinion even with their ability to perma block. You can say they arent the best dks and for sure, i agree but they are the sweaty dk duelers in Alikr and that probably puts them up there in terms of skill. There are ww builds out there that can do 7k+ dps for 15 minutes vs duelers, i just posted a screenshot of me doing that.

Again, this is a build issue more than a player skill issue. I'm not a good player, im at most average. And in most of my duels i get 7k+ to high 8k damage. I can expect to pressure a dk, a build that regularly does around, i dunno how much you guys are doing, 4-5kish, isnt built well enough to get a kill on a regular dk and can probably get stalemated.

Again, most of your issues with ww are build issues most likely.

Sustained DPS doesn’t kill someone with infinite sustain, that’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. When the vast majority of the damage you deal comes from blockable components, the fictitious non-sensible number you pull straight out of your hat on random people doesn’t remain at 7k… it degrades to a significantly smaller number whenever they should choose. This becomes even more so the case when they are capable of placing any meaningful pressure on you… anything that stops your bite spam in any capacity.

What a horrid, basic take ‘because you think their block is good’. No, their everything is good. Also, more props to the ‘I’m good because I kill mediocre DKs in this one area’.

Sustained DPS is not what kills a player with proper sustain and defense, burst is; burst of which you have none. I really need whatever some of you no-PFPers are… uh, nevermind.

Chrlynsch · August 9

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

acanca · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

You are not fighting the best of the best DK on your server and winning consistently.

No one in their right mind on a DK is losing to a werewolf when they have infinite bi-stat sustain through, can turtle up on their back bar with 40% block mit via passives and masteries alone, and can pop 1 of 2 ults with easy access to minor heroism (and potentially BS) that will give them the ability to 2-shot you should you make any mistakes.

Stalemating, sure. Winning… those aren’t good DKs. Good players can win fights where they are mathematically advantage… DK has that.

I'm aware of everything you said but the fact remains that when built right a ww has really good st damage. Even for a dk with really good block mitigation 7k+ sustained dps is 7k+ sustained dps.

I sometimes run into the type of dk that stalemates me easily but they are also the type that can never kill me. Again, i understand why you think dks can easily stalemate ww because their block mitigation is good.

But the fact of the matter is that dks can easily stalemate you because you most likely do little damage. Most of them tend to last around 1-2 minutes max in my opinion even with their ability to perma block. You can say they arent the best dks and for sure, i agree but they are the sweaty dk duelers in Alikr and that probably puts them up there in terms of skill. There are ww builds out there that can do 7k+ dps for 15 minutes vs duelers, i just posted a screenshot of me doing that.

Again, this is a build issue more than a player skill issue. I'm not a good player, im at most average. And in most of my duels i get 7k+ to high 8k damage. I can expect to pressure a dk, a build that regularly does around, i dunno how much you guys are doing, 4-5kish, isnt built well enough to get a kill on a regular dk and can probably get stalemated.

Again, most of your issues with ww are build issues most likely.

Sustained DPS doesn’t kill someone with infinite sustain, that’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. When the vast majority of the damage you deal comes from blockable components, the fictitious non-sensible number you pull straight out of your hat on random people doesn’t remain at 7k… it degrades to a significantly smaller number. This becomes even more so the case when they are capable of placing any meaningful pressure on you… anything that stops your bite spam in any capacity.

Someone give me a list of sweaty PC DK duelers for this dude to fight. I wanna watch, not gonna lie.

Raise the damage high enough and you kill anything and 7-8k dps is pretty high even with our currently broken pvp state. And when my spammable + CoE heals for 20k by itself, the burst you guys fear so much from dks becomes way less scary.

I dont know what to tell you, all i can give you is my anectodal experience. And my anectodal experience is what i gave you, without exaggeration. All i can tell you is that when built right, a good ww build is capable of killing basically all dks in alikr, and all dks in 4 bgs. You can say no those arent the best dks, no there are dks out there that can toy around with you and sure. I agree. I am not the best player, i am sure there are players of all classes that can toy with me. Yet my experience is that in bgs, and in duels, i dont find dks unkillable.

Firstmep · August 9

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

This pretty much. I'm a Templar main and my 3 most heals are all health based. Bastion/Guardian and restoring focus together make up over 70% of my healing in most fights unless they're super quick.
Battlespirit should either cap max hp or turn health based heals into offensive scaled ones.

acanca · August 9

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Wuuffyy · August 9

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

You wonderful people discard and discredit solutions that don’t align with your perspective. I’m of the rightful mindset that werewolf should come out of a power-adjustment rework stronger than before it started. My tooltips have lost damage, such as 25% or more from my spammable, uptime on my claw dot, a 20-40% dps reduction in my berserker bleed dot along with a hefty reduction in uptime, and up to a 43% (citing another user here) reduction in my burst heal option, fortitude, since this rework and this PTS launch.

With that being said, and to avoid more aimless destruction that serves to make werewolf unviable, yet again, here is my own take on this exact matter:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

Wuuffyy · August 9

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do’.

You act as if actual burst and sustain pressure are so very similar that sustained pressure somehow creates 45-50k damage windows in 1-2 GCDs. This is incomprehensibly unhinged.

Firstmep · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

You wonderful people discard and discredit solutions that don’t align with your perspective. I’m of the rightful mindset that werewolf should come out of a power-adjustment rework stronger than before it started. My tooltips have lost damage, such as 25% or more from my spammable, uptime on my claw dot, a 20-40% dps reduction in my berserker bleed dot along with a hefty reduction in uptime, and up to a 43% (citing another user here) reduction in my burst heal option, fortitude, since this rework and this PTS launch.

With that being said, and to avoid more aimless destruction that serves to make werewolf unviable, yet again, here is my own take on this exact matter:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

I personally disaggree with making Hircines stronger. I think the core idea behind werewolf is a blood hungry aggressive playstyle. I do think health based heals in all pvp should be reigned in, on all classes and specs.

Wuuffyy · August 9

Firstmep wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

You wonderful people discard and discredit solutions that don’t align with your perspective. I’m of the rightful mindset that werewolf should come out of a power-adjustment rework stronger than before it started. My tooltips have lost damage, such as 25% or more from my spammable, uptime on my claw dot, a 20-40% dps reduction in my berserker bleed dot along with a hefty reduction in uptime, and up to a 43% (citing another user here) reduction in my burst heal option, fortitude, since this rework and this PTS launch.

With that being said, and to avoid more aimless destruction that serves to make werewolf unviable, yet again, here is my own take on this exact matter:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

I personally disaggree with making Hircines stronger. I think the core idea behind werewolf is a blood hungry aggressive playstyle. I do think health based heals in all pvp should be reigned in, on all classes and specs.

So let me get this straight.

You want werewolf to be unable to recover from the immensely high burst damage (using their only on-demand heal) that everyone is capable of right now, while also reducing the healing while I’m in their face (as they’re bursting me), reducing my sustain, returning no damage, not providing morph independent minor/major protection, minor resolve, or providing the full list of weapon passives such as sword and board extra mitigation…

…and you’re concerned about the viability of werewolf how exactly here?

*not to mention my suggestion even truly making fortitude ‘stronger’, you’re just returning some gutted healing in exchange for rip and tear (low cost) healing

(the lower number minus yet another 10%)

Panderbander · August 9

acanca wrote: »

Hircines healed less than base regen in that one btw, i think it heals less nowadays because frankly i cast it less.

You have significantly higher uptime on Bloodclaws here than the fight posted by dark_hunterxmg and spent a significantly higher percentage of your time topped off as indicated by the fact that despite your fight only lasting about 60% of the duration of the fight the other posted, you had less than a third as many activations of Blood Magic heal as they did (only activates if you're not at full health). Both of you have similar numbers of casts of Rip and Tear (despite the time difference) with similar individual healing numbers from them.

What this tells me: Your incoming HPS was significantly buoyed by Blood Claws (triple as much average HPS as dark_hunterxmg) and likely had significantly lower incoming damage, meaning you were not forced onto the defensive as often as they were. Alternately, your target may not have been as keen or capable at dodging, meaning your Rip and Tear casts were landing more consistently, applying better healing, allowing you to keep up pressure without going defensive.

This matters. Simply posting a cropped image of a single CMX field doesn't tell the entire story. When placed under significant pressure, the incoming healing from Rip and Tear does not provide enough to stabilize, not to mention the ability can be dodged, leading to a total loss of healing from the cast.

I agree with you that the on-demand heal is not the problem with werewolf healing, but Rip and Tear is also not the culprit. What I see from BOTH of you is Blood Magic through Conservation of Energy sitting right there at the top, passively outpacing either Rip and Tear (in dark_hunterxmg's case) or Hircine's Fortitude (in your case).

The problem is not, and never was, the werewolf kit. It lies purely within the Sorc Conservation of Energy mastery.

Firstmep · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

You wonderful people discard and discredit solutions that don’t align with your perspective. I’m of the rightful mindset that werewolf should come out of a power-adjustment rework stronger than before it started. My tooltips have lost damage, such as 25% or more from my spammable, uptime on my claw dot, a 20-40% dps reduction in my berserker bleed dot along with a hefty reduction in uptime, and up to a 43% (citing another user here) reduction in my burst heal option, fortitude, since this rework and this PTS launch.

With that being said, and to avoid more aimless destruction that serves to make werewolf unviable, yet again, here is my own take on this exact matter:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

I personally disaggree with making Hircines stronger. I think the core idea behind werewolf is a blood hungry aggressive playstyle. I do think health based heals in all pvp should be reigned in, on all classes and specs.

So let me get this straight. You want werewolf to be unable to recover from the immensely high burst damage (using their only on-demand heal) that everyone is capable of right now, while also reducing the healing while I’m in their face (as their bursting me), reducing my sustain, returning no damage…

And you’re considered about the viability of werewolf how exactly here?

Making it scale off of offensive stats would already be better. Also, ww should try to stay on the offensive as much as possible. Its okay to not be able to recover from getting caught in a massive burst with 1 button. Most classes already cannot.

acanca · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not

Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

Wuuffyy · August 9

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not

Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

I can spam a bunch of BGs SS too. Peep the player class and player model, when possible, in the background of each.

Many of these were against teams with ‘good players’ and/or healers (especially alongside games that have low team score) on my server. Your no-context screenshot demonstrates, in actuality, as little as mine do:

I can provide many more of these types of screenshots from this patch, last patch, in werewolf before rework, after, on many, many classes, etc.

I don’t know where you believe your perspective gets to trump everyone else because you have a single BG screenshot and your testimony saying ‘I kill good DKs consistently’ which isn’t even logical in any capacity.

*edited out what I realized tag-wise, will edit out as more as I can in a bit

Firstmep · August 9

Forget bgs screenshots, the stars next to my name is all the proof you should need to know that ive been around for long enough that my opinion is solid gold. *wink wink

Wuuffyy · August 9

Firstmep wrote: »

Forget bgs screenshots, the stars next to my name is all the proof you should need to know that ive been around for long enough that my opinion is solid gold. *wink wink

I understand you’re very likely joking here but for the record:

All this necessarily means is that you likely split your time between the forums and the game. In fact, it could easily mean that you spend more time honing your speechcraft than you do your combat skills.

Firstmep wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

@acanca show me where the Rip and Tear healing "problem" is located in this picture. This is a 27minute duel with a Dragon Knight who is doing double the DPS that my Werewolf does.

Werewolf was hard nerfed early on in U50 PTS because of class mastery passivesn and equipment and it is being done again now.

I think the point that they were trying to get across is that in situations where werewolf doesn't have massive oppresive nature like a well built dk. Rip and tear spam would have been more than enough to keep you alive while appling non stop damage. If you would have done nothing but rip and tear spam you would have had over 7k HPS.

Now is that the way you will beat a good player? No. But that strategy is good enough to beat mediocre opponents and below.

I have 0 problem vs dks. I do sometimes die to the burst combo but 9 times out of 10 i just win vs good dks. Yes i mean the sweaty ones in Alikr. And yes the way you win vs a good player is the same way you win vs a bad player when playing ww. The action economy of rip and tear allowing you to keep up pressure while healing yourself is one of the reasons why ww is so strong. Just block cast a sec or two if you are low, rip and tear heals a quarter of my hp at 45k, you'll be fine.

Agreeing with you here, Rip and tear is definitely overtuned on high health builds which compound further alongside conservation of energy.

You wonderful people discard and discredit solutions that don’t align with your perspective. I’m of the rightful mindset that werewolf should come out of a power-adjustment rework stronger than before it started. My tooltips have lost damage, such as 25% or more from my spammable, uptime on my claw dot, a 20-40% dps reduction in my berserker bleed dot along with a hefty reduction in uptime, and up to a 43% (citing another user here) reduction in my burst heal option, fortitude, since this rework and this PTS launch.

With that being said, and to avoid more aimless destruction that serves to make werewolf unviable, yet again, here is my own take on this exact matter:

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

I personally disaggree with making Hircines stronger. I think the core idea behind werewolf is a blood hungry aggressive playstyle. I do think health based heals in all pvp should be reigned in, on all classes and specs.

So let me get this straight. You want werewolf to be unable to recover from the immensely high burst damage (using their only on-demand heal) that everyone is capable of right now, while also reducing the healing while I’m in their face (as their bursting me), reducing my sustain, returning no damage…

And you’re considered about the viability of werewolf how exactly here?

Making it scale off of offensive stats would already be better. Also, ww should try to stay on the offensive as much as possible. Its okay to not be able to recover from getting caught in a massive burst with 1 button. Most classes already cannot.

I don’t know about you Mep, but when 1 person hits me, vigor+healing soul get me out of just about any 1 instance of a burst combo (except being caught by corro because yet another massive, no effort hit is following suit). DK itself has always been capable of hitting very large, low-health heals… and also vigor (I’d say that combination even rivals the old fortitude heal).

Werewolf is becoming increasingly unable to replicate even the most basic of on-demand, staple healing in any capacity. I feel a rework should have improved this in some way, not woefully reduced it.

It’s manageable with rip and tear but why not remove some of the more consistent rip and tear healing (20-25% for starters) in favor of providing more responsiveness to the on-demand capacity and incredibly more finite healing sourced from Rage and Fortitude (such as keeping live values and increasing by 15-20%; a new value that is still woefully overshadowed by on-demand healing from just prior to the rework).

acanca · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not

Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

I can spam a bunch of BGs SS too. Peep the player class and player model, when possible, in the background of each.

Many of these were against teams with ‘good players’ and/or healers (especially alongside games that have low team score) on my server. Your no-context screenshot demonstrates, in actuality, as little as mine do:

I can provide many more of these types of screenshots from this patch, last patch, in werewolf before rework, after, on many, many classes, etc.

I don’t know where you believe your perspective gets to trump everyone else because you have a single BG screenshot and your testimony saying ‘I kill good DKs consistently’ which isn’t even logical in any capacity.

*edited out what I realized tag-wise, will edit out as more as I can in a bit

I honestly dont understand why we are arguing. I keep sharing my anectodal experience and you keep for some reason objecting to my anectodal experience. I genuinely do 7-8k dps in duels, i genuinely do not have any problems vs dks, i genuinely do dive into teams with healers and expect to get kills. I understand its easy to think these as picking exceptions but these arent exceptions for me, this is how i experience the game.

But if we manage to leave that aside, my proposed changes are reverting the cost changes for ww, nerfing the heal on rip and tear by around 30%, buffing the heal on hircines fortitude, toning down the sustain from both core of flame and conservation of energy.

Do you object or agree with anything that actually has to do with the subject at hand that isnt my anectodal experience when playing sorc ww?

AdonisJorge · August 9

If Werewolves get the PTS nerf on the live server, the only viable options will be Sorcerers or other classes running full sustain with no damage. Werewolves only have one bar (for better or worse) and very limited customization possibilities. If they could add some scribing skills to Werewolves, maybe things could be balanced out against that extreme over-nerf

Wuuffyy · August 9

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not

Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

I can spam a bunch of BGs SS too. Peep the player class and player model, when possible, in the background of each.

Many of these were against teams with ‘good players’ and/or healers (especially alongside games that have low team score) on my server. Your no-context screenshot demonstrates, in actuality, as little as mine do:

I can provide many more of these types of screenshots from this patch, last patch, in werewolf before rework, after, on many, many classes, etc.

I don’t know where you believe your perspective gets to trump everyone else because you have a single BG screenshot and your testimony saying ‘I kill good DKs consistently’ which isn’t even logical in any capacity.

*edited out what I realized tag-wise, will edit out as more as I can in a bit

I honestly dont understand why we are arguing. I keep sharing my anectodal experience and you keep for some reason objecting to my anectodal experience. I genuinely do 7-8k dps in duels, i genuinely do not have any problems vs dks, i genuinely do dive into teams with healers and expect to get kills. I understand its easy to think these as picking exceptions but these arent exceptions for me, this is how i experience the game.

But if we manage to leave that aside, my proposed changes are reverting the cost changes for ww, nerfing the heal on rip and tear by around 30%, buffing the heal on hircines fortitude, toning down the sustain from both core of flame and conservation of energy.

Do you object or agree with anything that actually has to do with the subject at hand that isnt my anectodal experience when playing sorc ww?

Sure, and I’m sharing my anecdotal experience as well. My boi (friend) in full tank gear does something ever similar yet even he fears the wrath of 1 or 2 good DKs in a bonk/corro- why is that?

My proposal is similar but doesn’t involve ripping healing apart on rip and tear or gutting werewolf heal-based healing like that other poster prefers.

Besides, we/they act is if there is any real problem with being conservative, even with nerfs, and then doing further and slight ones later.

‘Werewolf balancing’ in this game very heavily dictates that ‘once you lose it, you don’t get it back’ (looking at this patch it was take, take, take, ‘oh here’s a mediocre heal on the PvE claws’, take, take despite Signet having been nerfed and them going ballistic with blanket nerfs on the PTS).

You can clearly see that time and results are the greatest teacher of the truth in this for ESO. It took a massive cost investment and full rework for them to change anything meaningful and when they did, they want nuclear 3 months later even despite their ‘we are happy with werewolf in PvE’ statement.

acanca · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not

Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

I can spam a bunch of BGs SS too. Peep the player class and player model, when possible, in the background of each.

Many of these were against teams with ‘good players’ and/or healers (especially alongside games that have low team score) on my server. Your no-context screenshot demonstrates, in actuality, as little as mine do:

I can provide many more of these types of screenshots from this patch, last patch, in werewolf before rework, after, on many, many classes, etc.

I don’t know where you believe your perspective gets to trump everyone else because you have a single BG screenshot and your testimony saying ‘I kill good DKs consistently’ which isn’t even logical in any capacity.

*edited out what I realized tag-wise, will edit out as more as I can in a bit

I honestly dont understand why we are arguing. I keep sharing my anectodal experience and you keep for some reason objecting to my anectodal experience. I genuinely do 7-8k dps in duels, i genuinely do not have any problems vs dks, i genuinely do dive into teams with healers and expect to get kills. I understand its easy to think these as picking exceptions but these arent exceptions for me, this is how i experience the game.

But if we manage to leave that aside, my proposed changes are reverting the cost changes for ww, nerfing the heal on rip and tear by around 30%, buffing the heal on hircines fortitude, toning down the sustain from both core of flame and conservation of energy.

Do you object or agree with anything that actually has to do with the subject at hand that isnt my anectodal experience when playing sorc ww?

Sure, and I’m sharing my anecdotal experience as well. My boi (friend) in full tank gear does something ever similar yet even he fears the wrath of 1 or 2 good DKs in a bonk/corro- why is that?

My proposal is similar but doesn’t involve ripping healing apart on rip and tear or gutting werewolf heal-based healing like that other poster prefers.

Besides, we/they act is if there is any real problem with being conservative, even with nerfs, and then doing further and slight ones later.

‘Werewolf balancing’ in this game very heavily dictates that ‘once you lose it, you don’t get it back’ (looking at this patch it was take, take, take, ‘oh here’s a mediocre heal on the PvE claws’, take, take despite Signet having been nerfed and them going ballistic with blanket nerfs on the PTS).

You can clearly see that time and results are the greatest teacher of the truth in this for ESO. It took a massive cost investment and full rework for them to change anything meaningful and when they did, they want nuclear 3 months later even despite their ‘we are happy with werewolf in PvE’ statement.

its because being a tank is irrelevant for good ww survival. I heal probably around twice as much as a tank ww and my armor is so low that most builds probably literally dont benefit from onslaughting me all that much.

Think of it this way. I take what, 30k damage and heal up to 20k with a single spammable, a tank takes 30% less damage than me and heals for, i dont know 7-8k on average? Who is actually more survivable.

I am not making a hypothetical scenario here, a single spammable does heal me up to 20k, 14.5k from rip and tear, 5.5k+ from CoE

Wuuffyy · August 9

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not

Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

I can spam a bunch of BGs SS too. Peep the player class and player model, when possible, in the background of each.

Many of these were against teams with ‘good players’ and/or healers (especially alongside games that have low team score) on my server. Your no-context screenshot demonstrates, in actuality, as little as mine do:

I can provide many more of these types of screenshots from this patch, last patch, in werewolf before rework, after, on many, many classes, etc.

I don’t know where you believe your perspective gets to trump everyone else because you have a single BG screenshot and your testimony saying ‘I kill good DKs consistently’ which isn’t even logical in any capacity.

*edited out what I realized tag-wise, will edit out as more as I can in a bit

I honestly dont understand why we are arguing. I keep sharing my anectodal experience and you keep for some reason objecting to my anectodal experience. I genuinely do 7-8k dps in duels, i genuinely do not have any problems vs dks, i genuinely do dive into teams with healers and expect to get kills. I understand its easy to think these as picking exceptions but these arent exceptions for me, this is how i experience the game.

But if we manage to leave that aside, my proposed changes are reverting the cost changes for ww, nerfing the heal on rip and tear by around 30%, buffing the heal on hircines fortitude, toning down the sustain from both core of flame and conservation of energy.

Do you object or agree with anything that actually has to do with the subject at hand that isnt my anectodal experience when playing sorc ww?

Sure, and I’m sharing my anecdotal experience as well. My boi (friend) in full tank gear does something ever similar yet even he fears the wrath of 1 or 2 good DKs in a bonk/corro- why is that?

My proposal is similar but doesn’t involve ripping healing apart on rip and tear or gutting werewolf heal-based healing like that other poster prefers.

Besides, we/they act is if there is any real problem with being conservative, even with nerfs, and then doing further and slight ones later.

‘Werewolf balancing’ in this game very heavily dictates that ‘once you lose it, you don’t get it back’ (looking at this patch it was take, take, take, ‘oh here’s a mediocre heal on the PvE claws’, take, take despite Signet having been nerfed and them going ballistic with blanket nerfs on the PTS).

You can clearly see that time and results are the greatest teacher of the truth in this for ESO. It took a massive cost investment and full rework for them to change anything meaningful and when they did, they want nuclear 3 months later even despite their ‘we are happy with werewolf in PvE’ statement.

its because being a tank is irrelevant for good ww survival. I heal probably around twice as much as a tank ww and my armor is so low that most builds probably literally dont benefit from onslaughting me all that much.

Think of it this way. I take what, 30k damage and heal up to 20k with a single spammable, a tank takes 30% less damage than me and heals for, i dont know 7-8k on average? Who is actually more survivable.

I am not making a hypothetical scenario here, a single spammable does heal me up to 20k, 14.5k from rip and tear, 5.5k+ from CoE

My spammable IS NOT healing me for that on live (20k) with 43k health in 5 heavy. And to hekk with CoE, as I’ve stated that isn’t the werewolf kit that’s an overperforming mastery they can take out back and —— for all I care. (I even made it a point above to state that the things they are nerfing happen to directly coincide with the things that mastery are very unhealthily providing)

Also, coming even remotely close means critting and potentially being near a keep/flag… critting alone you are unlikely to have it set for more than 1/4 to 1/3 of your heals to even do that. I’m not sure why you feel the need to talk in exaggeration.

acanca · August 9

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

This isnt to say that Core of Flames shouldnt be touched btw. Core of Flames and Conservation of Energy are fundementally broken skills that break the game for pvp and need to be toned down

Also, you know what you’re saying basically equates to ‘yeah I can walk into groups of people with a healer or 2 and outright kill people with 35-40k health because my ‘sustained pressure’ somehow equates to the bonk, etc. line-up that every else has to do.

I can and regularly do that. Even when i lose bgs because we start 3v4 etc, i usually go 14/0 and can tank all 4 by myself or at least expect to survive.

I probably average around 20/1/x in 4 bgs. And i honestly dont really mind getting onslaughted, i usually just use tripots cause they are free and my armor is low enough that its usually not that much damage increase, it is a bit funny when you think about it.

I know this probably sounds like im trolling but no, i really am not

Here is a dk that had 2 healers to pocket themselves but still managed to die repeatedly. I tanked all 4 for several minutes myself and i admit getting a kill solo with 2 compotent healers is hard but considering i joined this match when it was half done with the team getting camped at base, its still a good indication how not unkillable dks are.

Hell, if its 1 healer its not even a problem to usually focus the healer down and then get the rest when playing solo vs 4s.

I know that you can say those arent the best, there are betters etc. But my anectodal experience remains the same.

I can spam a bunch of BGs SS too. Peep the player class and player model, when possible, in the background of each.

Many of these were against teams with ‘good players’ and/or healers (especially alongside games that have low team score) on my server. Your no-context screenshot demonstrates, in actuality, as little as mine do:

I can provide many more of these types of screenshots from this patch, last patch, in werewolf before rework, after, on many, many classes, etc.

I don’t know where you believe your perspective gets to trump everyone else because you have a single BG screenshot and your testimony saying ‘I kill good DKs consistently’ which isn’t even logical in any capacity.

*edited out what I realized tag-wise, will edit out as more as I can in a bit

I honestly dont understand why we are arguing. I keep sharing my anectodal experience and you keep for some reason objecting to my anectodal experience. I genuinely do 7-8k dps in duels, i genuinely do not have any problems vs dks, i genuinely do dive into teams with healers and expect to get kills. I understand its easy to think these as picking exceptions but these arent exceptions for me, this is how i experience the game.

But if we manage to leave that aside, my proposed changes are reverting the cost changes for ww, nerfing the heal on rip and tear by around 30%, buffing the heal on hircines fortitude, toning down the sustain from both core of flame and conservation of energy.

Do you object or agree with anything that actually has to do with the subject at hand that isnt my anectodal experience when playing sorc ww?

Sure, and I’m sharing my anecdotal experience as well. My boi (friend) in full tank gear does something ever similar yet even he fears the wrath of 1 or 2 good DKs in a bonk/corro- why is that?

My proposal is similar but doesn’t involve ripping healing apart on rip and tear or gutting werewolf heal-based healing like that other poster prefers.

Besides, we/they act is if there is any real problem with being conservative, even with nerfs, and then doing further and slight ones later.

‘Werewolf balancing’ in this game very heavily dictates that ‘once you lose it, you don’t get it back’ (looking at this patch it was take, take, take, ‘oh here’s a mediocre heal on the PvE claws’, take, take despite Signet having been nerfed and them going ballistic with blanket nerfs on the PTS).

You can clearly see that time and results are the greatest teacher of the truth in this for ESO. It took a massive cost investment and full rework for them to change anything meaningful and when they did, they want nuclear 3 months later even despite their ‘we are happy with werewolf in PvE’ statement.

its because being a tank is irrelevant for good ww survival. I heal probably around twice as much as a tank ww and my armor is so low that most builds probably literally dont benefit from onslaughting me all that much.

Think of it this way. I take what, 30k damage and heal up to 20k with a single spammable, a tank takes 30% less damage than me and heals for, i dont know 7-8k on average? Who is actually more survivable.

I am not making a hypothetical scenario here, a single spammable does heal me up to 20k, 14.5k from rip and tear, 5.5k+ from CoE

My spammable IS NOT healing me for that on live (20k) with 43k health in 5 heavy. And to hekk with CoE, as I’ve stated that isn’t the werewolf kit that’s an overperforming mastery they can take out back and —— for all I care.

Also, coming even remotely close means critting and potentially being near a keep/flag… critting alone you are unlikely to have it set for more than 1/4 to 1/3 of your heals to even do that.

I know, its a build issue, and no im not talking about hypothetical scenarios where your healing is increased near a flag or something. My build really does heal me up to 20k with a single spammable.

Edit: I know you dont like it when i post random screenshots, yes they dont mean everything, but here it is anyway