Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wrong skill chief, core of flame

Also lets please add Conservation of Energy to the mix.

No need to go from a dk/ww/sorc meta to sorc only meta

For Sorc nerfing the healing is actually a better move. If you nerf the sustain from conservation sorc will now be stuck with old bars and limited builds. No bueno

Don't be selfish. Both Conservation of Energy (healing AND sustain) and Heart of flame (sustain) must be disbled in PvP.

I'm not being selfish lol. It's one or the other, not both. I have already tested fighing without that passive in PvP and the result was not good.

On this we will have to disagree. HOF should sustain definitely needs a nerf but so does the sorc class mastery. I’m not saying to remove it but it should be adjusted.

It does, and I made an entire thread about it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691944/conservation-of-energy-needs-to-be-adjusted-for-the-health-of-the-game#latest

I suggested these:

1) Either remove the interaction with Blood Magic and introduce a fixed heal tooltip upon activating a cost (around 1k - 1.5k) OR making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats only. This ensures that the extreme cases of manipulating this skill are removed, while also providing a decent "heal over time" for people with less experience in PvP
2) Reintroduce the fixed 1k stam and mag value per proc to allow for more fluid game play.


Granted that my suggestions were a while ago during the PTS cycle and things have changed, I still firmly believe that, strictly for sorc, the sustain from Conservation allows for more build diversity, which is a good thing for the class. Sorc has struggled with bar space for a long time and was limited to running a few builds because it had to slot Dark Deal and waste an entire slot. Nerfing the heal would be a much better approach while keeping the build options.

Some people want that entire passive removed though, and I have to disagree with them. But let’s say we did remove the entire passive. I would just switch to Calculated Defense instead and gain 6% WD (100% uptime) and a fat HP scaling shield every time I use a Sorc ability or one with a cast time. I tested this btw and found that my survivability was mostly untouched, while that extra 6% WD let me use 2-3 recovery glyphs anyway. But guess what? Build options became limited because you’d have bar space issues, so Sorc went back to pre u50, just with more tankiness lol.

The most ideal fix for this passive imo would be to make Blood Magic give a fixed heal tooltip (maybe 1.5k per proc) and a fixed stam + mag return. This value can be adjusted.

You just want infinite sustain with sorc using streak, dark deal/exchange, and CoE.

That is not healthy gameplay any more than CoF is healthy gameplay. Why is sorc the only in your equation that maintains near-zero risk, high sustain 'for free'?

If anything, they're even the most apt to abuse given they have a multitude of various burst moves that can be comboed for no apparent reason and yet another mastery that heavily rewards them for max-mag stack. There is a reason after all that they are widely considered 'top 3' despite not even being a reworked class.

They should either rework CoE or heavily nerf all health/stam/mag values received as a result of this passive.

Infinite sustain is a stretch lol. Dark Deal only restores 1 pool and and costs another pool to cast, while CoE restores on average 400 off resource and 500-600 main resource per ability cast. The most frequent scenario you'll run into is having 1 pool with very good sustain and 1 pool always low.

I think you really need to play as Sorc and DK to see how much better CoF is compared to CoE if we're strictly speaking about sustain. There's really no contest between the two. I have played both and I found DK sustain to be vastly superior.

As for the burst moves, Curse is extremely unreliable in PvP because it's fixed around a target instead of your character. If you want to burst a group of people and he runs away from the group, your combo is basically screwed. Compare that to CoF + Incinerate which is centered around your character similarly to Deep Fissure is a much better burst combo, at least for melee. Not only that, but Curse feels great until you run into a build with cleanses. Now it's both blockable and cleansable, no bueno. If you had to make me choose between Curse and Fissure or Incinerate, I would choose the latter 2, all the time. In fact, I dropped Curse from my bar in exchange for Contingency solely due to the 2 aforementioned drawbacks.

As for other burst abilities, they are indeed very good, but I don't see them as any different than other classes' (with maybe the exception of Arcanist and Templar because they both have bad offensive rotations). Bound Armaments is a poor man's version of Spectral Bow, and Cfrag is a poor man's version of Flame Lash. Being ranged, they both suffer tremendously against Spell Wall users or any DK with wings as their damage gets reflected or cut by half.

The only 2 reasons why you're seeing Sorc in the spot light right now are due to:

1) CoE giving between ~2k-4k permanent HPS (you should know this if you're a WW main), meaning less need to cast Vigor and other heals => less resource drain
2) Font of Power giving ~500-700 extra WD

That extra WD buffs Sorc's damage output significantly, and in combination with CoE doing the heavy lifting for survivability, you have a Sorc that can stay on the offense for significantly longer. In fact, after I created this thread and people were complaining about CoE's sustain, I went ahead and dropped CoE for Calculated Defense. You know what I noticed? It wasn't the sustain that killed me because I already play with sub 1k regen pre-U50. It was the fact that I no longer had access to a free 2k-4k HPS. No more 4k mini burst heal off every bash, roll dodge, or break free. No more 4k burst heal off every ability casted. No more 4k burst heal that made BfB essentially free.

The sustain was never the problem. It was always the free HPS all along.

With just 20.9k stam and 18.6k magicka, CoE is granting me 418 stamina and 372 magicka per skill cast which is the maximum equivalent of (418x2) 836 stamina recovery and (372x2) 744 magicka recovery in PvP off of a single passive.

With just 30k in a resource, those numbers are easily increased by 50% or greater. (so the equivalent of 1200 stamina recovery with just 30k stam)

That is the exact same type of not healthy as CoF. The only difference is, sorc can also streak very far away with a shield up and spam dark deal (which also procs this) in addition to that.

That's ridiculous

Since you are a WW main, all your stam skills cost less than 1k, and your burst heal restores upto 7k stam per cast. If you really want to test my statement, you should try 21k stam and 18.6k mag on a normal Sorc and come back to me if you can sustain that against a proper opponent (5k+ DPS).

If I drop my stam below 30k, it will be incredibly difficult to sustain when fighting a DK with Pyrebrand + Wildfire class mastery + Gorethief/Rally. These guys regularly put up 5k DPS at a minimum, and can deal up to 35k burst instantly. You either need a minimum of 33k stam in a more offensive build or extremely high mitigation to afford lower max stam (because they do less DPS > you don't need to heal as much).

And all of that is with Conservation of Energy outputing 2k-3k HPS permanently. If I dropped Conservation, I would literally explode in 10 seconds against a good DK player. I have tested this already, but you don't have to take my word for it. Just fight a properly built DK without Conservation and see for yourself lol.

Vaqual wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wrong skill chief, core of flame

Also lets please add Conservation of Energy to the mix.

No need to go from a dk/ww/sorc meta to sorc only meta

For Sorc nerfing the healing is actually a better move. If you nerf the sustain from conservation sorc will now be stuck with old bars and limited builds. No bueno

Don't be selfish. Both Conservation of Energy (healing AND sustain) and Heart of flame (sustain) must be disbled in PvP.

I'm not being selfish lol. It's one or the other, not both. I have already tested fighing without that passive in PvP and the result was not good.

On this we will have to disagree. HOF should sustain definitely needs a nerf but so does the sorc class mastery. I’m not saying to remove it but it should be adjusted.

It does, and I made an entire thread about it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691944/conservation-of-energy-needs-to-be-adjusted-for-the-health-of-the-game#latest

I suggested these:

1) Either remove the interaction with Blood Magic and introduce a fixed heal tooltip upon activating a cost (around 1k - 1.5k) OR making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats only. This ensures that the extreme cases of manipulating this skill are removed, while also providing a decent "heal over time" for people with less experience in PvP
2) Reintroduce the fixed 1k stam and mag value per proc to allow for more fluid game play.


Granted that my suggestions were a while ago during the PTS cycle and things have changed, I still firmly believe that, strictly for sorc, the sustain from Conservation allows for more build diversity, which is a good thing for the class. Sorc has struggled with bar space for a long time and was limited to running a few builds because it had to slot Dark Deal and waste an entire slot. Nerfing the heal would be a much better approach while keeping the build options.

Some people want that entire passive removed though, and I have to disagree with them. But let’s say we did remove the entire passive. I would just switch to Calculated Defense instead and gain 6% WD (100% uptime) and a fat HP scaling shield every time I use a Sorc ability or one with a cast time. I tested this btw and found that my survivability was mostly untouched, while that extra 6% WD let me use 2-3 recovery glyphs anyway. But guess what? Build options became limited because you’d have bar space issues, so Sorc went back to pre u50, just with more tankiness lol.

The most ideal fix for this passive imo would be to make Blood Magic give a fixed heal tooltip (maybe 1.5k per proc) and a fixed stam + mag return. This value can be adjusted.

You just want infinite sustain with sorc using streak, dark deal/exchange, and CoE.

That is not healthy gameplay any more than CoF is healthy gameplay. Why is sorc the only in your equation that maintains near-zero risk, high sustain 'for free'?

If anything, they're even the most apt to abuse given they have a multitude of various burst moves that can be comboed for no apparent reason and yet another mastery that heavily rewards them for max-mag stack. There is a reason after all that they are widely considered 'top 3' despite not even being a reworked class.

They should either rework CoE or heavily nerf all health/stam/mag values received as a result of this passive.

Infinite sustain is a stretch lol. Dark Deal only restores 1 pool and and costs another pool to cast, while CoE restores on average 400 off resource and 500-600 main resource per ability cast. The most frequent scenario you'll run into is having 1 pool with very good sustain and 1 pool always low.

I think you really need to play as Sorc and DK to see how much better CoF is compared to CoE if we're strictly speaking about sustain. There's really no contest between the two. I have played both and I found DK sustain to be vastly superior.

As for the burst moves, Curse is extremely unreliable in PvP because it's fixed around a target instead of your character. If you want to burst a group of people and he runs away from the group, your combo is basically screwed. Compare that to CoF + Incinerate which is centered around your character similarly to Deep Fissure, you have a much better burst combo, at least for melee. Not only that, but Curse feels great until you run into a build with cleanses. Now it's both blockable and cleansable, so no bueno. If you had to make me choose between Curse and Fissure or Incinerate, I would choose the latter 2, all the time. In fact, I dropped Curse from my bar in exchange for Contingency solely due to the 2 aforementioned drawbacks.

As for other burst abilities, they are indeed very good, but I don't see them as any different than other classes' (with maybe the exception of Arcanist and Templar because they both have bad offensive rotations). Bound Armaments is a poor man's version of Spectral Bow, and Cfrag is a poor man's version of Flame Lash. Being ranged, they both suffer tremendously against Spell Wall users or any DK with wings as their damage either gets reflected or cut by half.

The only 2 reasons why you're seeing Sorc in the spot light right now are due to:

1) CoE giving between ~2k-4k permanent HPS (you should know this if you're a WW main), meaning less need to cast Vigor and other heals => less resource drain
2) Font of Power giving ~500-700 extra WD

That extra WD buffs Sorc's damage output significantly, and in combination with CoE doing the heavy lifting for survivability, you have a Sorc that can stay on the offense for significantly longer. In fact, after I created this thread and people were complaining about CoE's sustain, I went ahead and dropped CoE for Calculated Defense. You know what I noticed? It wasn't the sustain that killed me because I already played with sub 1k regen pre-U50. It was the fact that I no longer had access to a free 2k-4k HPS. No more 4k mini burst heal off every bash, roll dodge, or break free. No more 4k burst heal off every ability casted. No more 4k burst heal that made BfB essentially free.

The sustain was never the problem. It was always the free HPS all along.

I think they just need to play around with the conditions or uptimes to find a compromise. A selection of Sorc skills (not necessarily only Dark Magic) should proc Blood Magic and CoE once per GCD, as if you'd be spamming Frags/Cwep. Outside of the CoE mastery could allow any resource expenditure to proc Blood Magic and CoE in moderate intervals, e.g. every 5 seconds. In my impression this whole thing was inspired by the fact that it was very hard to leverage Blood Magic to a reasonable extent, especially the recently added resource buff. Blood Magic was however already somewhat designed around suboptimal uptimes, being a kind of fake HoT that scaled with pressure uptime. In the end they violated their own balancing trying to help Sorc out. But this was predictably and evidently too much. And honestly it really doesn't fit the class flavour anyway. They need to at least dial it down.

HoF could very simply benefit from reasonable caps. I am personally easily seeing single ticks going for 2-3.5k on my medium resource builds per pool, while remaining on comfortable and safe levels. This should be a supplementary sustain tool, working with Combustion and Storm Voice. The ticks simply don't need to get that big. Builds with high average recovery or low pools are already not benefiting so much from HoF. The simplest change would be to let the ticks cap out somewhere around the 1500 resource range, which would still offer great total resource recovery per GCD, without breaking even on single ticks. Then the additional effects on the ability, which I find thematically quite good, would be much more justifiable.

CoE and HoF existing as mutual excuse for each other is really not enough of a justification for their respective power, if balancing continues at the current pace. I know that we have been talking about the topic for months and I don't address this to anyone of you personally, this just my best suggestions for this situation.

Yes, they can play around with the conditions. I still think touching the sustain of CoE is the wrong way to balance this class. I mean, just look at this duel I had vs a DK:




That's a 46s duel which only ended because I stopped casting abilities. I sustained 4.9k HPS for that duration WITHOUT VIGOR against a good DK. Do you think nerfing the sustain would have mattered at all when my skill bar looked like this:



The only stam skills I had were BA and Hurricane. At 36k stam and not casting a single stam ability, I would still never run out of it even if CoE didn't give me any sustain. The thing with Sorcerer in general is that this class has always been pretty decent at sustaining without relying on recovery food (Dark Deal and passives like Persistence, Capacitor, & Unholy Knowledge). While a NB or Warden in the same build might need 1.8k+ stam regen, a Sorc could comfortably play at 1.1k or even <1k if the player is experienced. That has always been a thing and I've played like this even before the class mastery introduction.

BUT, Sorcerer has always lacked a proper HoT. While Crit Surge is amazing when it reliably procs, the opportunity cost to make it happen usually isn't worth it. You have to either build high crit chance, stack multiple sources of damage, or maintain a very aggressive playstyle to keep its uptime high. That's a lot to ask for in a build. With CoE proccing BM off every ability with a cost, core combat abilities included, this creates a huge problem where Sorc now has great survivability without needing to stay aggressive. Even if ZOS removed the sustain from CoE, Sorc would still have so much extra sustain off this heal alone. I mean, B4B is essentially an offensive heal with this passive (2k HP cost vs 4k BM tooltip).

So when people ask for CoE's sustain to be nerfed, I say they are not looking at the correct offender. If you just nerf the sustain, I can still spam B4B for basically zero cost and free up so much stamina from not needing to use Vigor frequently. I am still very tanky with minimal effort, and the outcome is still largely the same. However, if the heal from CoE was removed or nerfed in someway, the free sustain problem would instantly be fixed because I now have to cast Vigor and dodge roll more often. I would also not get the heal from casting core combat abilities either, so I'm going to die much sooner. I get to keep my build diversity, and people get to achieve their goals of nerfing Sorc's sustain. It is THE correct way of addressing this.

OR we can also remove CoE altogether like some people suggested here, but that's basically applying a sledge hammer to fix a problem. If ZOS actually did that, I would just swap to Calculated Defense instead and get my tankiness back that way. I gain 6% more WD too, so that's ~300 WD extra that I can exchange for ~2 recovery glyphs. Nothing changes for the top players lol.

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wrong skill chief, core of flame

Also lets please add Conservation of Energy to the mix.

No need to go from a dk/ww/sorc meta to sorc only meta

For Sorc nerfing the healing is actually a better move. If you nerf the sustain from conservation sorc will now be stuck with old bars and limited builds. No bueno

Don't be selfish. Both Conservation of Energy (healing AND sustain) and Heart of flame (sustain) must be disbled in PvP.

I'm not being selfish lol. It's one or the other, not both. I have already tested fighing without that passive in PvP and the result was not good.

On this we will have to disagree. HOF should sustain definitely needs a nerf but so does the sorc class mastery. I’m not saying to remove it but it should be adjusted.

It does, and I made an entire thread about it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691944/conservation-of-energy-needs-to-be-adjusted-for-the-health-of-the-game#latest

I suggested these:

1) Either remove the interaction with Blood Magic and introduce a fixed heal tooltip upon activating a cost (around 1k - 1.5k) OR making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats only. This ensures that the extreme cases of manipulating this skill are removed, while also providing a decent "heal over time" for people with less experience in PvP
2) Reintroduce the fixed 1k stam and mag value per proc to allow for more fluid game play.


Granted that my suggestions were a while ago during the PTS cycle and things have changed, I still firmly believe that, strictly for sorc, the sustain from Conservation allows for more build diversity, which is a good thing for the class. Sorc has struggled with bar space for a long time and was limited to running a few builds because it had to slot Dark Deal and waste an entire slot. Nerfing the heal would be a much better approach while keeping the build options.

Some people want that entire passive removed though, and I have to disagree with them. But let’s say we did remove the entire passive. I would just switch to Calculated Defense instead and gain 6% WD (100% uptime) and a fat HP scaling shield every time I use a Sorc ability or one with a cast time. I tested this btw and found that my survivability was mostly untouched, while that extra 6% WD let me use 2-3 recovery glyphs anyway. But guess what? Build options became limited because you’d have bar space issues, so Sorc went back to pre u50, just with more tankiness lol.

The most ideal fix for this passive imo would be to make Blood Magic give a fixed heal tooltip (maybe 1.5k per proc) and a fixed stam + mag return. This value can be adjusted.

You just want infinite sustain with sorc using streak, dark deal/exchange, and CoE.

That is not healthy gameplay any more than CoF is healthy gameplay. Why is sorc the only in your equation that maintains near-zero risk, high sustain 'for free'?

If anything, they're even the most apt to abuse given they have a multitude of various burst moves that can be comboed for no apparent reason and yet another mastery that heavily rewards them for max-mag stack. There is a reason after all that they are widely considered 'top 3' despite not even being a reworked class.

They should either rework CoE or heavily nerf all health/stam/mag values received as a result of this passive.

Infinite sustain is a stretch lol. Dark Deal only restores 1 pool and and costs another pool to cast, while CoE restores on average 400 off resource and 500-600 main resource per ability cast. The most frequent scenario you'll run into is having 1 pool with very good sustain and 1 pool always low.

I think you really need to play as Sorc and DK to see how much better CoF is compared to CoE if we're strictly speaking about sustain. There's really no contest between the two. I have played both and I found DK sustain to be vastly superior.

As for the burst moves, Curse is extremely unreliable in PvP because it's fixed around a target instead of your character. If you want to burst a group of people and he runs away from the group, your combo is basically screwed. Compare that to CoF + Incinerate which is centered around your character similarly to Deep Fissure is a much better burst combo, at least for melee. Not only that, but Curse feels great until you run into a build with cleanses. Now it's both blockable and cleansable, no bueno. If you had to make me choose between Curse and Fissure or Incinerate, I would choose the latter 2, all the time. In fact, I dropped Curse from my bar in exchange for Contingency solely due to the 2 aforementioned drawbacks.

As for other burst abilities, they are indeed very good, but I don't see them as any different than other classes' (with maybe the exception of Arcanist and Templar because they both have bad offensive rotations). Bound Armaments is a poor man's version of Spectral Bow, and Cfrag is a poor man's version of Flame Lash. Being ranged, they both suffer tremendously against Spell Wall users or any DK with wings as their damage gets reflected or cut by half.

The only 2 reasons why you're seeing Sorc in the spot light right now are due to:

1) CoE giving between ~2k-4k permanent HPS (you should know this if you're a WW main), meaning less need to cast Vigor and other heals => less resource drain
2) Font of Power giving ~500-700 extra WD

That extra WD buffs Sorc's damage output significantly, and in combination with CoE doing the heavy lifting for survivability, you have a Sorc that can stay on the offense for significantly longer. In fact, after I created this thread and people were complaining about CoE's sustain, I went ahead and dropped CoE for Calculated Defense. You know what I noticed? It wasn't the sustain that killed me because I already play with sub 1k regen pre-U50. It was the fact that I no longer had access to a free 2k-4k HPS. No more 4k mini burst heal off every bash, roll dodge, or break free. No more 4k burst heal off every ability casted. No more 4k burst heal that made BfB essentially free.

The sustain was never the problem. It was always the free HPS all along.

With just 20.9k stam and 18.6k magicka, CoE is granting me 418 stamina and 372 magicka per skill cast which is the maximum equivalent of (418x2) 836 stamina recovery and (372x2) 744 magicka recovery in PvP off of a single passive.

With just 30k in a resource, those numbers are easily increased by 50% or greater. (so the equivalent of 1200 stamina recovery with just 30k stam)

That is the exact same type of not healthy as CoF. The only difference is, sorc can also streak very far away with a shield up and spam dark deal (which also procs this) in addition to that.

That's ridiculous

Since you are a WW main, all your stam skills cost less than 1k, and your burst heal restores upto 7k stam per cast. If you really want to test my statement, you should try 21k stam and 18.6k mag on a normal Sorc and come back to me if you can sustain that against a proper opponent (5k+ DPS).

If I drop my stam below 30k, it will be incredibly difficult to sustain when fighting a DK with Pyrebrand + Wildfire class mastery + Gorethief/Rally. These guys regularly put up 5k DPS at a minimum, and can deal up to 35k burst instantly. You either need a minimum of 33k stam in a more offensive build or extremely high mitigation to afford lower max stam (because they do less DPS > you don't need to heal as much).

And all of that is with Conservation of Energy outputing 2k-3k HPS permanently. If I dropped Conservation, I would literally explode in 10 seconds against a good DK player. I have tested this already, but you don't have to take my word for it. Just fight a properly built DK without Conservation and see for yourself lol.

Bold of you to assume I’m a ‘werewolf main’ like I don’t play other classes, haven’t played other classes proficiently, or don’t have a meaningful and fundamental understanding of how the game works as a result. Beyond this, I’d be far more privy to play anything else if it were already reworked and was properly competitive to DK, for example.

My skills prior to this patch on werewolf alone however had average costs of 3k stam and 5k mag so even as a werewolf prior, I know the struggle of ‘glob awful sustain’ very well. I fight people on my server out of werewolf (built like a stam-sorc) with a tri-pots and I am able to kill quite a few people I shouldn’t with basically CoE sustain alone. In fact, I am honestly able to sustain just about anything but a DK (thank you constant hard hitting burst attempts 24/7), even some werewolves.

Regardless of the personal jab or assumption of skill and capability, I can assure you as you clearly see by sorc being the only-non-reworked class that remotely competes; 1200 stam recov (30k stam; bound armaments makes this much easier than other classes) and 800 mag recovery off a single, whimsical passive is not healthy unless we’re okay with everyone everyone having similar sustain.

*p.s. DK being over performant, especially with Pyrebrand and Wildfire does not merit ‘near infinite’ sustain for the sorc, especially if they were to touch CoE in a further attempt to bring sustain down across the board. Also, I literally have to end my existence on my NB (300+ days of in-game playtime over 10+ years) with 4k oblivion damage ticks each just for mediocre sustain why the hekk should you get that and a decent heal+sustain from dark deal with the arguably better ‘free movement’ tool???

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wrong skill chief, core of flame

Also lets please add Conservation of Energy to the mix.

No need to go from a dk/ww/sorc meta to sorc only meta

For Sorc nerfing the healing is actually a better move. If you nerf the sustain from conservation sorc will now be stuck with old bars and limited builds. No bueno

Don't be selfish. Both Conservation of Energy (healing AND sustain) and Heart of flame (sustain) must be disbled in PvP.

I'm not being selfish lol. It's one or the other, not both. I have already tested fighing without that passive in PvP and the result was not good.

On this we will have to disagree. HOF should sustain definitely needs a nerf but so does the sorc class mastery. I’m not saying to remove it but it should be adjusted.

It does, and I made an entire thread about it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691944/conservation-of-energy-needs-to-be-adjusted-for-the-health-of-the-game#latest

I suggested these:

1) Either remove the interaction with Blood Magic and introduce a fixed heal tooltip upon activating a cost (around 1k - 1.5k) OR making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats only. This ensures that the extreme cases of manipulating this skill are removed, while also providing a decent "heal over time" for people with less experience in PvP
2) Reintroduce the fixed 1k stam and mag value per proc to allow for more fluid game play.


Granted that my suggestions were a while ago during the PTS cycle and things have changed, I still firmly believe that, strictly for sorc, the sustain from Conservation allows for more build diversity, which is a good thing for the class. Sorc has struggled with bar space for a long time and was limited to running a few builds because it had to slot Dark Deal and waste an entire slot. Nerfing the heal would be a much better approach while keeping the build options.

Some people want that entire passive removed though, and I have to disagree with them. But let’s say we did remove the entire passive. I would just switch to Calculated Defense instead and gain 6% WD (100% uptime) and a fat HP scaling shield every time I use a Sorc ability or one with a cast time. I tested this btw and found that my survivability was mostly untouched, while that extra 6% WD let me use 2-3 recovery glyphs anyway. But guess what? Build options became limited because you’d have bar space issues, so Sorc went back to pre u50, just with more tankiness lol.

The most ideal fix for this passive imo would be to make Blood Magic give a fixed heal tooltip (maybe 1.5k per proc) and a fixed stam + mag return. This value can be adjusted.

You just want infinite sustain with sorc using streak, dark deal/exchange, and CoE.

That is not healthy gameplay any more than CoF is healthy gameplay. Why is sorc the only in your equation that maintains near-zero risk, high sustain 'for free'?

If anything, they're even the most apt to abuse given they have a multitude of various burst moves that can be comboed for no apparent reason and yet another mastery that heavily rewards them for max-mag stack. There is a reason after all that they are widely considered 'top 3' despite not even being a reworked class.

They should either rework CoE or heavily nerf all health/stam/mag values received as a result of this passive.

Infinite sustain is a stretch lol. Dark Deal only restores 1 pool and and costs another pool to cast, while CoE restores on average 400 off resource and 500-600 main resource per ability cast. The most frequent scenario you'll run into is having 1 pool with very good sustain and 1 pool always low.

I think you really need to play as Sorc and DK to see how much better CoF is compared to CoE if we're strictly speaking about sustain. There's really no contest between the two. I have played both and I found DK sustain to be vastly superior.

As for the burst moves, Curse is extremely unreliable in PvP because it's fixed around a target instead of your character. If you want to burst a group of people and he runs away from the group, your combo is basically screwed. Compare that to CoF + Incinerate which is centered around your character similarly to Deep Fissure is a much better burst combo, at least for melee. Not only that, but Curse feels great until you run into a build with cleanses. Now it's both blockable and cleansable, no bueno. If you had to make me choose between Curse and Fissure or Incinerate, I would choose the latter 2, all the time. In fact, I dropped Curse from my bar in exchange for Contingency solely due to the 2 aforementioned drawbacks.

As for other burst abilities, they are indeed very good, but I don't see them as any different than other classes' (with maybe the exception of Arcanist and Templar because they both have bad offensive rotations). Bound Armaments is a poor man's version of Spectral Bow, and Cfrag is a poor man's version of Flame Lash. Being ranged, they both suffer tremendously against Spell Wall users or any DK with wings as their damage gets reflected or cut by half.

The only 2 reasons why you're seeing Sorc in the spot light right now are due to:

1) CoE giving between ~2k-4k permanent HPS (you should know this if you're a WW main), meaning less need to cast Vigor and other heals => less resource drain
2) Font of Power giving ~500-700 extra WD

That extra WD buffs Sorc's damage output significantly, and in combination with CoE doing the heavy lifting for survivability, you have a Sorc that can stay on the offense for significantly longer. In fact, after I created this thread and people were complaining about CoE's sustain, I went ahead and dropped CoE for Calculated Defense. You know what I noticed? It wasn't the sustain that killed me because I already play with sub 1k regen pre-U50. It was the fact that I no longer had access to a free 2k-4k HPS. No more 4k mini burst heal off every bash, roll dodge, or break free. No more 4k burst heal off every ability casted. No more 4k burst heal that made BfB essentially free.

The sustain was never the problem. It was always the free HPS all along.

With just 20.9k stam and 18.6k magicka, CoE is granting me 418 stamina and 372 magicka per skill cast which is the maximum equivalent of (418x2) 836 stamina recovery and (372x2) 744 magicka recovery in PvP off of a single passive.

With just 30k in a resource, those numbers are easily increased by 50% or greater. (so the equivalent of 1200 stamina recovery with just 30k stam)

That is the exact same type of not healthy as CoF. The only difference is, sorc can also streak very far away with a shield up and spam dark deal (which also procs this) in addition to that.

That's ridiculous

Since you are a WW main, all your stam skills cost less than 1k, and your burst heal restores upto 7k stam per cast. If you really want to test my statement, you should try 21k stam and 18.6k mag on a normal Sorc and come back to me if you can sustain that against a proper opponent (5k+ DPS).

If I drop my stam below 30k, it will be incredibly difficult to sustain when fighting a DK with Pyrebrand + Wildfire class mastery + Gorethief/Rally. These guys regularly put up 5k DPS at a minimum, and can deal up to 35k burst instantly. You either need a minimum of 33k stam in a more offensive build or extremely high mitigation to afford lower max stam (because they do less DPS > you don't need to heal as much).

And all of that is with Conservation of Energy outputing 2k-3k HPS permanently. If I dropped Conservation, I would literally explode in 10 seconds against a good DK player. I have tested this already, but you don't have to take my word for it. Just fight a properly built DK without Conservation and see for yourself lol.

Bold of you to assume I’m a ‘werewolf main’ like I don’t play other classes, haven’t played other classes proficiently, or don’t have a meaningful and fundamental understanding of how the game works as a result. Beyond this, I’d be far more privy to play anything else if it were already reworked and was properly competitive to DK, for example.

My skills prior to this patch on werewolf alone however had average costs of 3k stam and 5k mag so even as a werewolf prior, I know the struggle of ‘glob awful sustain’ very well. I fight people on my server out of werewolf (built like a stam-sorc) with a tri-pots and I am able to kill quite a few people I shouldn’t with basically CoE sustain alone. In fact, I am honestly able to sustain just about anything but a DK (thank you constant hard hitting burst attempts 24/7), even some werewolves.

Regardless of the personal jab or assumption of skill and capability, I can assure you as you clearly see by sorc being the only-non-reworked class that remotely competes; 1200 stam recov (30k stam; bound armaments makes this much easier than other classes) and 800 mag recovery off a single, whimsical passive is not healthy unless we’re okay with everyone everyone having similar sustain.

*p.s. DK being over performant, especially with Pyrebrand and Wildfire does not merit ‘near infinite’ sustain for the sorc, especially if they were to touch CoE in a further attempt to bring sustain down across the board. Also, I literally have to end my existence on my NB (300+ days of in-game playtime over 10+ years) with 4k oblivion damage ticks each just for mediocre sustain why the hekk should you get that and a decent heal+sustain from dark deal with the arguably better ‘free movement’ tool???

The sustain was never the problem lol. I dropped CoE for Calculated Defense and the outcome was the same:



This was without slotting Essence Thief (very stat dense set for melee builds) like I used to before U50. If CoE was nerfed, I would just run this exact setup (Essence Thief/Rally) with Calculated Defense and nothing will change.

You are not going to be able to sit here and tell me or anyone with any kind of brain thinking cap that a single passive that provides the equivalent of 1200 stam recov (30k stam) and 800 mag recov (20k mag) is healthy in any way and shouldn’t go alongside CoF, should it go.

That is preposterous beyond comprehension to me and would severely impact the already unhealthy meta (3 classes far above the rest) that we have now.

I mean, at least I can consistently get my hands on a DK; sorc over there is just free casting in the back with max damage, max sustain, and 0 actual sustain sets plus they streak any time you do anything to their actual health bar. There is no way you think that kind of sustain and gameplay where everyone else is brought down to non-reworked levels of sustain is fun in any way.

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acanca wrote: »

Wrong skill chief, core of flame

Also lets please add Conservation of Energy to the mix.

No need to go from a dk/ww/sorc meta to sorc only meta

For Sorc nerfing the healing is actually a better move. If you nerf the sustain from conservation sorc will now be stuck with old bars and limited builds. No bueno

Don't be selfish. Both Conservation of Energy (healing AND sustain) and Heart of flame (sustain) must be disbled in PvP.

I'm not being selfish lol. It's one or the other, not both. I have already tested fighing without that passive in PvP and the result was not good.

On this we will have to disagree. HOF should sustain definitely needs a nerf but so does the sorc class mastery. I’m not saying to remove it but it should be adjusted.

It does, and I made an entire thread about it:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691944/conservation-of-energy-needs-to-be-adjusted-for-the-health-of-the-game#latest

I suggested these:

1) Either remove the interaction with Blood Magic and introduce a fixed heal tooltip upon activating a cost (around 1k - 1.5k) OR making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats only. This ensures that the extreme cases of manipulating this skill are removed, while also providing a decent "heal over time" for people with less experience in PvP
2) Reintroduce the fixed 1k stam and mag value per proc to allow for more fluid game play.


Granted that my suggestions were a while ago during the PTS cycle and things have changed, I still firmly believe that, strictly for sorc, the sustain from Conservation allows for more build diversity, which is a good thing for the class. Sorc has struggled with bar space for a long time and was limited to running a few builds because it had to slot Dark Deal and waste an entire slot. Nerfing the heal would be a much better approach while keeping the build options.

Some people want that entire passive removed though, and I have to disagree with them. But let’s say we did remove the entire passive. I would just switch to Calculated Defense instead and gain 6% WD (100% uptime) and a fat HP scaling shield every time I use a Sorc ability or one with a cast time. I tested this btw and found that my survivability was mostly untouched, while that extra 6% WD let me use 2-3 recovery glyphs anyway. But guess what? Build options became limited because you’d have bar space issues, so Sorc went back to pre u50, just with more tankiness lol.

The most ideal fix for this passive imo would be to make Blood Magic give a fixed heal tooltip (maybe 1.5k per proc) and a fixed stam + mag return. This value can be adjusted.

You just want infinite sustain with sorc using streak, dark deal/exchange, and CoE.

That is not healthy gameplay any more than CoF is healthy gameplay. Why is sorc the only in your equation that maintains near-zero risk, high sustain 'for free'?

If anything, they're even the most apt to abuse given they have a multitude of various burst moves that can be comboed for no apparent reason and yet another mastery that heavily rewards them for max-mag stack. There is a reason after all that they are widely considered 'top 3' despite not even being a reworked class.

They should either rework CoE or heavily nerf all health/stam/mag values received as a result of this passive.

Infinite sustain is a stretch lol. Dark Deal only restores 1 pool and and costs another pool to cast, while CoE restores on average 400 off resource and 500-600 main resource per ability cast. The most frequent scenario you'll run into is having 1 pool with very good sustain and 1 pool always low.

I think you really need to play as Sorc and DK to see how much better CoF is compared to CoE if we're strictly speaking about sustain. There's really no contest between the two. I have played both and I found DK sustain to be vastly superior.

As for the burst moves, Curse is extremely unreliable in PvP because it's fixed around a target instead of your character. If you want to burst a group of people and he runs away from the group, your combo is basically screwed. Compare that to CoF + Incinerate which is centered around your character similarly to Deep Fissure is a much better burst combo, at least for melee. Not only that, but Curse feels great until you run into a build with cleanses. Now it's both blockable and cleansable, no bueno. If you had to make me choose between Curse and Fissure or Incinerate, I would choose the latter 2, all the time. In fact, I dropped Curse from my bar in exchange for Contingency solely due to the 2 aforementioned drawbacks.

As for other burst abilities, they are indeed very good, but I don't see them as any different than other classes' (with maybe the exception of Arcanist and Templar because they both have bad offensive rotations). Bound Armaments is a poor man's version of Spectral Bow, and Cfrag is a poor man's version of Flame Lash. Being ranged, they both suffer tremendously against Spell Wall users or any DK with wings as their damage gets reflected or cut by half.

The only 2 reasons why you're seeing Sorc in the spot light right now are due to:

1) CoE giving between ~2k-4k permanent HPS (you should know this if you're a WW main), meaning less need to cast Vigor and other heals => less resource drain
2) Font of Power giving ~500-700 extra WD

That extra WD buffs Sorc's damage output significantly, and in combination with CoE doing the heavy lifting for survivability, you have a Sorc that can stay on the offense for significantly longer. In fact, after I created this thread and people were complaining about CoE's sustain, I went ahead and dropped CoE for Calculated Defense. You know what I noticed? It wasn't the sustain that killed me because I already play with sub 1k regen pre-U50. It was the fact that I no longer had access to a free 2k-4k HPS. No more 4k mini burst heal off every bash, roll dodge, or break free. No more 4k burst heal off every ability casted. No more 4k burst heal that made BfB essentially free.

The sustain was never the problem. It was always the free HPS all along.

With just 20.9k stam and 18.6k magicka, CoE is granting me 418 stamina and 372 magicka per skill cast which is the maximum equivalent of (418x2) 836 stamina recovery and (372x2) 744 magicka recovery in PvP off of a single passive.

With just 30k in a resource, those numbers are easily increased by 50% or greater. (so the equivalent of 1200 stamina recovery with just 30k stam)

That is the exact same type of not healthy as CoF. The only difference is, sorc can also streak very far away with a shield up and spam dark deal (which also procs this) in addition to that.

That's ridiculous

Since you are a WW main, all your stam skills cost less than 1k, and your burst heal restores upto 7k stam per cast. If you really want to test my statement, you should try 21k stam and 18.6k mag on a normal Sorc and come back to me if you can sustain that against a proper opponent (5k+ DPS).

If I drop my stam below 30k, it will be incredibly difficult to sustain when fighting a DK with Pyrebrand + Wildfire class mastery + Gorethief/Rally. These guys regularly put up 5k DPS at a minimum, and can deal up to 35k burst instantly. You either need a minimum of 33k stam in a more offensive build or extremely high mitigation to afford lower max stam (because they do less DPS > you don't need to heal as much).

And all of that is with Conservation of Energy outputing 2k-3k HPS permanently. If I dropped Conservation, I would literally explode in 10 seconds against a good DK player. I have tested this already, but you don't have to take my word for it. Just fight a properly built DK without Conservation and see for yourself lol.

Bold of you to assume I’m a ‘werewolf main’ like I don’t play other classes, haven’t played other classes proficiently, or don’t have a meaningful and fundamental understanding of how the game works as a result. Beyond this, I’d be far more privy to play anything else if it were already reworked and was properly competitive to DK, for example.

My skills prior to this patch on werewolf alone however had average costs of 3k stam and 5k mag so even as a werewolf prior, I know the struggle of ‘glob awful sustain’ very well. I fight people on my server out of werewolf (built like a stam-sorc) with a tri-pots and I am able to kill quite a few people I shouldn’t with basically CoE sustain alone. In fact, I am honestly able to sustain just about anything but a DK (thank you constant hard hitting burst attempts 24/7), even some werewolves.

Regardless of the personal jab or assumption of skill and capability, I can assure you as you clearly see by sorc being the only-non-reworked class that remotely competes; 1200 stam recov (30k stam; bound armaments makes this much easier than other classes) and 800 mag recovery off a single, whimsical passive is not healthy unless we’re okay with everyone everyone having similar sustain.

*p.s. DK being over performant, especially with Pyrebrand and Wildfire does not merit ‘near infinite’ sustain for the sorc, especially if they were to touch CoE in a further attempt to bring sustain down across the board. Also, I literally have to end my existence on my NB (300+ days of in-game playtime over 10+ years) with 4k oblivion damage ticks each just for mediocre sustain why the hekk should you get that and a decent heal+sustain from dark deal with the arguably better ‘free movement’ tool???

The sustain was never the problem lol. I dropped CoE for Calculated Defense and the outcome was the same:



This was without slotting Essence Thief (very stat dense set for melee builds) like I used to before U50. If CoE was nerfed, I would just run this exact setup (Essence Thief/Rally) with Calculated Defense and nothing will change.

You are not going to be able to sit here and tell me or anyone with any kind of brain thinking cap that a single passive that provides the equivalent of 1200 stam recov (30k stam) and 800 mag recov (20k mag) is healthy in any way and shouldn’t go alongside CoF, should it go.

That is preposterous beyond comprehension to me and would severely impact the already unhealthy meta (3 classes far above the rest) that we have now.

I mean, at least I can consistently get my hands on a DK; sorc over there is just free casting in the back with max damage, max sustain, and 0 actual sustain sets plus they streak any time you do anything to their actual health bar. There is no way you think that kind of sustain and gameplay where everyone else is brought down to non-reworked levels of sustain is fun in any way.

Nerfing the sustain would change nothing when the permanent healing from BM is the problem lol. If you nerfed the sustain, I can still spam Blood for Blood for basically zero cost. 😂

But go ahead lol, Sorc is high skill cap class. Nerf that sustain and nothing changes for me. I have already dropped CoE to test other builds anyway

Both are a problem, nerf both ends (health sustain and resource sustain). Recommend reworking the passive entirely/ changing in some capacity for PvP.

The only situation I don't see this being necessary is if they don't deem CoF a problem (which may be likely considering the dev note essentially said they are 'healthy in PvP').

if that suggestions come to live it will be completely disaster for pve players
just make it like if battle spirit is active, NERF
thats the solution