Werewolf obliterated while DK remains! Everyone Rejoice!

gammelscroll · August 3

8 DKs are steamrolling in cyrodil as we speak. Unkillable trains with infinite sustain and crazy dmg. Good they didnt get nerfed.

Wuuffyy · August 3

gammelscroll wrote: »

8 DKs are steamrolling in cyrodil as we speak. Unkillable trains with infinite sustain and crazy dmg. Good they didnt get nerfed.

It's okay, werewolves get to RIP now while DK and sorc fly-high. Let's go team!!

Wuuffyy · August 3

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Parses are not a good way to see classes viability on PVP (that is the most called nerf that people use to nuke WW to oblivion if they can)

I agree. I’m happy to consider PvE parses myself to a degree but live data in actual content is far more important. As always, not a ‘PvE trifecta expert’ or anything but I’m fairly certain the meta STILL wasn’t all werewolves at any point. Oh well, blanket nerfs for all (well, just werewolf I guess) apparently.

demonology89 · August 4

I don't want to say this because I was so excited for this year, but I may be taking another long break from ESO. These nerfs to WW are awful. Cyro PVP has been a meme for a couple years now (IMO). But this clown show of Corrosive DKs running around untouched and killing groups of players with VD is a joke. And this coming from someone who has Warden, DK, and Plar in their top 3 favorite classes. I was really enjoying Warden WW before they deleted Signet. Now it will all be Sorc WWs. Greeeat -.-

Wuuffyy · August 4

demonology89 wrote: »

I don't want to say this because I was so excited for this year, but I may be taking another long break from ESO. These nerfs to WW are awful. Cyro PVP has been a meme for a couple years now (IMO). But this clown show of Corrosive DKs running around untouched and killing groups of players with VD is a joke. And this coming from someone who has Warden, DK, and Plar in their top 3 favorite classes. I was really enjoying Warden WW before they deleted Signet. Now it will all be Sorc WWs. Greeeat -.-

Look at me go! Don't worry, I'm ‘healthy’ and balanced (DK bomber)!!

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/6RRgACnLZW

HunterDawn · August 4

The prosperous future is as the ESO team wishes👍

Vaqual · August 4

For what it is worth, I think that reworking the most problematic class masteries to work less efficiently on class agnostic builds like WW would indeed have been a better starting point for WW balancing changes.

I stand by my statement from a couple weeks ago: Class masteries, as they were released, were among the lowest quality combat changes we have seen since U35. They just dumped power into the game, were the prudent thing would have been to cut back outliers and bolster low performers.

But why fix Conservation of Energy when you can adjust the cost across the board to mess with everyone else.

gammelscroll · August 4

Balance team in action!

huskandhunger · August 4

If we are going to have the costs to werewolf abilities return very close to the pre-rework Werewolf then we need to also reset the damage values that lost roughly 1/3rd of their original values, remove the "while in PVP/battle spirit" reductions to the werewolf passive Feral Cruelty and Berserker Bleed duration.

Panderbander · August 4

gammelscroll wrote: »

[snip]

Psst, give a little more info lest you receive the wrath of the mods.

That said, the little testing I did last night didn't feel terrible, but the changes to devour (you'll never rename that for me) are abysmal, particularly as I tend to play zerker and the influx of fury from devour during combat goes a long way to sustaining the form as well as boosting my damage.
[edited to remove quote]

Red99 · August 4

At least they had given the wolf minor resolve after all these nerfs, everyone has access to minor resolve except the wolf

Lord_Hev · August 4

So, I approach WW the same way I've been approaching DK. They are both re-worked. It's very frustrating having to deal with the obnoxious-icity of them running meta rampant. But it is what it is. I keep the long term in mind, and when more and more classes get refreshed, we will have new fun universal power creep issues to deal with. But hey, at least some form of an "equal-footing" is finally achieved.

But it is pretty telling that werewolves are getting targeted sustain nerfs... because of one singular class and one singular class mastery... And these nerfs make it so that werewolves have to double-down on that one singular class, and one singular class mastery.

Kazajhan · August 4

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So, I approach WW the same way I've been approaching DK. They are both re-worked. It's very frustrating having to deal with the obnoxious-icity of them running meta rampant. But it is what it is. I keep the long term in mind, and when more and more classes get refreshed, we will have new fun universal power creep issues to deal with. But hey, at least some form of an "equal-footing" is finally achieved.

But it is pretty telling that werewolves are getting targeted sustain nerfs... because of one singular class and one singular class mastery... And these nerfs make it so that werewolves have to double-down on that one singular class, and one singular class mastery.

I think that's my whole concern with the balance problem.

Players will meta. That's normal and not a problem. Then the players find some outlier in the numbers and mechanics. This is also normal; lots more players than developers, and they're going to examine every combination until they find the winner. And instead of sanding down the outlier combination, the devs are making global changes to a class.

Devs could cap the stacked effects, or they could just make that one class mastery not work the same with werewolf, but instead they put down the heavy hand on the werewolf. The sustain I could probably overcome with good sets. The Insatiable Hunger mechanic, not so much.

That's like grading on a curve and telling the class that since one person was way above the curve this time, nobody else gets an A, instead of discarding the outlier and calculating from there.

And then those of us who have other goals in the game: Playing the class we want, PvE, endgame PvE, RP, stuff like that...get our gameplay experience severely curtailed.

It really sucks for werewolf to go from being nerfed to death in U35 to improvement, but being nerfed again somewhat in U50 PTS, to this. I stuck myself out there and joined a guild and have been running vet trials as a werewolf, not a sorceror. It's been...working! And I finally sustained WW form through a whole trial! It's really fun having an offbeat character in a run.

After 10 years in this game, I was breaking new ground, and having fun.

And now, it looks like the viability of WW for that kind of thing is going to get stomped. Really damn disheartening.

Wuuffyy · August 4

Kazajhan wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So, I approach WW the same way I've been approaching DK. They are both re-worked. It's very frustrating having to deal with the obnoxious-icity of them running meta rampant. But it is what it is. I keep the long term in mind, and when more and more classes get refreshed, we will have new fun universal power creep issues to deal with. But hey, at least some form of an "equal-footing" is finally achieved.

But it is pretty telling that werewolves are getting targeted sustain nerfs... because of one singular class and one singular class mastery... And these nerfs make it so that werewolves have to double-down on that one singular class, and one singular class mastery.

I think that's my whole concern with the balance problem.

Players will meta. That's normal and not a problem. Then the players find some outlier in the numbers and mechanics. This is also normal; lots more players than developers, and they're going to examine every combination until they find the winner. And instead of sanding down the outlier combination, the devs are making global changes to a class.

Devs could cap the stacked effects, or they could just make that one class mastery not work the same with werewolf, but instead they put down the heavy hand on the werewolf. The sustain I could probably overcome with good sets. The Insatiable Hunger mechanic, not so much.

That's like grading on a curve and telling the class that since one person was way above the curve this time, nobody else gets an A, instead of discarding the outlier and calculating from there.

And then those of us who have other goals in the game: Playing the class we want, PvE, endgame PvE, RP, stuff like that...get our gameplay experience severely curtailed.

It really sucks for werewolf to go from being nerfed to death in U35 to improvement, but being nerfed again somewhat in U50 PTS, to this. I stuck myself out there and joined a guild and have been running vet trials as a werewolf, not a sorceror. It's been...working! And I finally sustained WW form through a whole trial! It's really fun having an offbeat character in a run.

After 10 years in this game, I was breaking new ground, and having fun.

And now, it looks like the viability of WW for that kind of thing is going to get stomped. Really damn disheartening.

This is also a major problem I have with nerfs on ESO as a whole. Looking at another game that I play called Smite, they handle balance very differently. Instead of drastic and immediate swinging in one direction, they do moderate changes here and there to 'overperforming' characters to naturally reign in high win rates/pick rates (or buffs to underperforming items, etc.) and then that concept also can still be up on the buffing block (typically for parts of a character's 'kit' that can be seen as 'underperforming').

I understand ZOS struggles with balance changes comparatively to a game like Smite (essentially a 3-month change cadence compared to bi-weekly or monthly), however I find that even more a reason to have thought-out adjustments instead of just issuing playstyle-upending nerfs without any meaningful compensation and calling it at that.

‘Werewolf balancing’ has been the most egregious balancing for any particular game I've played. Over the past decade, and if I was distinctly better at remembering specifics, I'm sure I could count on just my hands the amount of times werewolf has been outright buffed. And then when it is buffed, just like you see now, it is subsequently destroyed without as much as a second thought.

*even around a year ago, when we received the ability to tank and we were collectively-perceived to be at an all-time low, my PvP toon lost things as they worked to add some minor buffs, ability to taunt, and moved some things around (at a time when removing anything in favor of just adding things seemingly shouldn't have been a consideration).

Wuuffyy · August 4

Red99 wrote: »

At least they had given the wolf minor resolve after all these nerfs, everyone has access to minor resolve except the wolf

I wish minor resolve was a consideration at any point for werewolf. I don't understand why so many decent and just absolutely random skills casually have this and we don't have it at all.

Why not just remove the minor protection of the defensive roar and replace it instead with minor resolve? At least I'd have something in the way of armor adjacent to everyone else. It'd also help my PvE tank more easily reach the cap without needing to run armor pots or drop block cost reduction to have this.

I don't see how this would be overtly detrimental for PvP either as the values are similar and your armor can be 'countered' anyway with onslaught/corrosive.

dark_hunterxmg · 2:29AM

U51: The Werewolf Un-work

U50 rework isn't even complete yet.

In case you didn't know, Hircine's Fortitude in U51 has 43% less healing than U49 on the same build.

IncultaWolf · 3:20AM

Lord_Hev wrote: »

So, I approach WW the same way I've been approaching DK. They are both re-worked. It's very frustrating having to deal with the obnoxious-icity of them running meta rampant. But it is what it is. I keep the long term in mind, and when more and more classes get refreshed, we will have new fun universal power creep issues to deal with. But hey, at least some form of an "equal-footing" is finally achieved.

But it is pretty telling that werewolves are getting targeted sustain nerfs... because of one singular class and one singular class mastery... And these nerfs make it so that werewolves have to double-down on that one singular class, and one singular class mastery.

Finally other people are noticing the real issue, conservation of energy class mastery.

Sephyr · 10:15AM

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It will require some testing, but at 1st glance it seems like WW is going back to being meme class again.... I mean at 1st glance, as I am not 100% sure. Nerf is quite huge. I guess if you look at this from a far, WW seems to be the most nerfed thing in the history of eso.

If you play a sorc, you'll feel okay-ish. Then they do something to masteries, the procs we use, or more... and then it becomes worse.

Tommy, you know how this goes. I've seen you acknowledge this in other threads as well.

I knew this before the PTS ever dropped. I told everyone I know that 'it will be less than half a page of DK with a 'slap on the wrist' and 'over a page for werewolf'... I knew too.

Honestly, at this point (for me) I think I'm more inclined to just wait to play the game again until after they rework all of the classes and go through the whole rebalancing phase, though that also is a big maybe.

There was a whole lot more I was going to say, especially since the nerfs don't really address underlying issues, but I just don't know if folks are ready to have that conversation.

AdonisJorge · 11:52AM

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

U51: The Werewolf Un-work

U50 rework isn't even complete yet.

In case you didn't know, Hircine's Fortitude in U51 has 43% less healing than U49 on the same build.

If everyone play DK the game will be balanced, i will make mine today, maybe this is a design choice, The Elder DKs Online

Wuuffyy · 12:42PM

Sephyr wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It will require some testing, but at 1st glance it seems like WW is going back to being meme class again.... I mean at 1st glance, as I am not 100% sure. Nerf is quite huge. I guess if you look at this from a far, WW seems to be the most nerfed thing in the history of eso.

If you play a sorc, you'll feel okay-ish. Then they do something to masteries, the procs we use, or more... and then it becomes worse.

Tommy, you know how this goes. I've seen you acknowledge this in other threads as well.

I knew this before the PTS ever dropped. I told everyone I know that 'it will be less than half a page of DK with a 'slap on the wrist' and 'over a page for werewolf'... I knew too.

Honestly, at this point (for me) I think I'm more inclined to just wait to play the game again until after they rework all of the classes and go through the whole rebalancing phase, though that also is a big maybe.

There was a whole lot more I was going to say, especially since the nerfs don't really address underlying issues, but I just don't know if folks are ready to have that conversation.

Trust me when I say, werewolf only goes downhill from here. They wouldn’t re-increase the damage, burst heal, or return any sustain….

…even if they made everyone like DK now with their own core of flame. It has always been ‘balanced’ in such an incredibly disappointing way.

s3dulo · 3:43PM

Calling WW obliterated is hilarious. Not even close. The only thing that happened to WW is now builds will actually have to invest in mag or stam instead of going 100% into health. So a WW might have to go 35k health instead of 40K plus. Sorc WW will still be OP for a skilled user. They are just a little more killable.

Wuuffyy · 3:49PM

s3dulo wrote: »

Calling WW obliterated is hilarious. Not even close. The only thing that happened to WW is now builds will actually have to invest in mag or stam instead of going 100% into health. So a WW might have to go 35k health instead of 40K plus. Sorc WW will still be OP for a skilled user. They are just a little more killable.

Brother, having to build 40k health just to survive and be able to heal because every heal you have scales off health is not the ‘ew, got em now they have to sustain like everyone else’ you think it is.

I literally can’t build the same stats everyone else gets to build. I can’t back bar a sword and board, get minor protection from slotting undo, get minor resolve from one of the best heals in the game, and get major protection from Monomyth (so I couldn’t maintain that type of mitigation on Berserker to even go ‘more damage’).

I have to stack those amounts of health to bolster my survivability (so raising health to account for more damage taken and also, generally requiring more health as basically there exists no relevant wep/spell scaling heals and only health-heals), amounts that undoubtedly leave me with a below average stam pool (15-20k stam with 40k health outside of sorc) which results in poor sustain no matter what I do…

As you mentioned at the end, that’s the problem, on PTS in a 1 v 1 I hardly noticed a discernible difference with sorc werewolf (I can tell it will be rough in a 1 v x now but that’s besides the point). All this change does is relegate any non-sorc werewolf in PvP to sorc. That’s appears like a failed change not addressing what they were going for in the first place, to me.

In the eventuality they continue to rip sustain from us further, we need the damage we lost prior to the rework just to be capable of killing still, nevermind ‘sustaining’ or ‘healing worth a jamm’. Werewolf shouldn’t feel worse than before the rework and right now, outside of sorc, it feels awful.

IncultaWolf · 4:40PM

AdonisJorge wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

U51: The Werewolf Un-work

U50 rework isn't even complete yet.

In case you didn't know, Hircine's Fortitude in U51 has 43% less healing than U49 on the same build.

If everyone play DK the game will be balanced, i will make mine today, maybe this is a design choice, The Elder DKs Online

As someone in one of my guilds said "DK is the final meta of eso" 🔥

acanca · 5:09PM

s3dulo wrote: »

Calling WW obliterated is hilarious. Not even close. The only thing that happened to WW is now builds will actually have to invest in mag or stam instead of going 100% into health. So a WW might have to go 35k health instead of 40K plus. Sorc WW will still be OP for a skilled user. They are just a little more killable.

You cannot, none of us were running any max hp sets in the first place and the healing is unviable below 40ks. No one can allocate any points outside of health and find success and i was already running sustain sets on my ww builds when not on sorc. If there is a way to make stuff like warden ww work after the reworks, i dont see it.

Thats not really me defending ww being overpowered. It sure as hell was overpowered, but mainly on sorc and im pretty sure ww will continue to be overpowered on sorc while not really being viable on other classes

Attaching a photo of a game i lost where the survivability and kill pressure of what i was playing, ww sorc, was a clear outlier in a high damage lobby. I cannot do anything close to this on warden ww, or arcanist ww or dk ww or necro ww. This is only an issue on sorc ww and mainly an issue of Conservation of Energy.