NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We’re seeing a lot, and I do mean a lot, of content demonstrating WW absolutely excelling in PvP post-rework. YT and Reddit are both flooded with examples of WW builds and gameplay that prove WW strength.

Further, if we look through the forums we don’t see really any threads of players asking for a buff or otherwise increase in capability for WW.

It seems that there’s maybe 2 or 3 people in this thread that think WW is somehow under-performing? And the only evidence what so ever that’s been cited is comparing to DK, despite both of those characters / classes working fundamentally differently?

Why are we seeing so much WW elevated results if the rework is so flawed or underperforming? Why aren’t there more players positing issues about WW performance?

You see PLENTY of examples of GOOD/dedicated players using anywhere from abysmal specs (mag blade, etc.) to DK to overcome, outplay, and push the mark significantly over their peers.

I, was provably (meaning I kept screenshots, clips, have testimony from others) doing this with werewolf even directly PRIOR to this rework patch despite it having been in a known, abysmal state while DK was running rampant (in this context, uncontested last patch)- same as any version of meta subclassing.

Good players can overcome. Your average player isn’t making ‘x’ clips or consistently topping leaderboards regardless. With that being said, this does NOT mean that something ‘ISN’T underperforming’ or ‘DOESN’T have issues’ (in this case, current werewolf has legitimate, gameplay-impacting bugs as OP mentioned, info cited further below by the *)

~~~

Moving on, you mentioned DK working fundamentally different from werewolf- I agree.

DK has a metric ton of burst and werewolf has none. Werewolf has a ‘skill ceiling’ (outside of keeping roto up, bash weaving, using rampage at the ‘right’ times) where if a player is overtly survivable, for whatever reason that may be, you literally cannot kill them as you lack the DPS in a ‘burst’ to do so)

As always, you do still trade-off damage for tankiness (contrary to any notion that this isn’t the case for werewolf) and while the consistent pressure from werewolf is nice, adjusting these values ~of course~ still decreases damage relatively proportionally (and ergo a player with less survivability will more consistently survive your ‘pressure’)…

…meanwhile, a DK can build relatively tanky and at minimum ‘crutch’ on onslaught/corro to hit burst numbers ease amounting to 20-40k in 1 to 2 GCDs with little effort while also having less but still great sustain (meaning that they, for example, have the capability to kill most players whereas a werewolf can ‘lack the damage necessary to kill’ even with that aforementioned ‘pressure’)

(fyi, this can kill high health, ‘damage-oriented’ werewolves as well; especially comboed with reworked, delayed fossilize)

~~~

*quick note: If you read OP (clickbait title, I know) you’ll actually see that the vast majority of what they’re referencing are legitimate functionality bugs versus ‘give werewolf a buff’. These are mostly valid, objective feedback points (bugs and non-working functionality are bad and feel bad, mkay).

Most of what the OP is citing as “bugs”, are issues with gameplay but those issues aren’t specific to WW; they’re affecting everyone.

Skills failing to cast
Skills casting on a delay
Inputs failing to properly register a target or correct target location / range
A different action executed than what was triggered.

The OP cites specific skills but those exact same things are happening to players in every class and all skills; especially in PvP. These aren’t WW specific bugs as much as they’re just an abysmally bad current gameplay state.

As for DK vs WW, I do agree; DK can drop massive burst and that’s by design. This is because the meta level crit Subclassed builds can also scale damage that high .. one hit 30K Merciless became commonplace after Subclassing, so DK was refreshed to not only meet that level of power creep but have the associated mechanics / methods to compete.

As for WW, they do have a higher skill floor IMO and they might not have the raw burst that DK has but that doesn’t mean they don’t have any kind of burst. Like I mentioned earlier, even one tick from a non Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will deal 21.5k damage; that’s on par with DK bursts. A one stack Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will see a per tick damage output of 27k .. 2 stacks scales to 32.3k .. so even if the full 4.6 second duration isn’t applied, even that one tick is equitable to some of the heavier bursts in the game.

That’s more than just pressure. Pair that with the insanely powerful AoE Fear as one of the best CC skills in the game and a properly played WW has the potential to chunk even a DK.

In reality an experienced DK vs an experienced WW will likely trade off back & forth quite a bit and that makes sense at the levels of power in PvP. Both can be tanky, WW typically having a higher health pool; both can strong self heal, and both have strong damage potential .. DK is just easier to play and more flexible with their skill sets.

Thank you for the thought-out response.

I personally don’t really see a lot of value in claw fury for the average player (which remains important as a reflective baseline for werewolf to evaluate intrinsic power) in PvP. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable and becomes significantly less intuitive with bite no longer being the main damage spammable (yet draining blood hunger) and ‘blood claws’ no longer generating a stack per person of ‘blood hunger’ (where-as you’d otherwise have to spam/continuously channel claws with far less damage front loaded)

It is very similar to beam and while it outshines bite in coordinated gameplay (such as ‘bombing’/ group ‘turn-and-burn’ strats) it is generally even more horribly utilized by your average player in PvP than using bite as the main spammable.

*also, the counter is usually as simple as walking in/ through the player or moving away with your opponent’s position in mind or rather CC to end and zero their hunger stacks (I.E. their pressure in that case)…

…of course positional dsync is also bound to be very strong with this one

(again, yes I do understand certain components of issues are related to environments like Cyro/areas with many, many calculations due to player skill spam/effects/etc. and ergo not just the skills themselves. Some, like many of werewolf’s skills are very prone to these issues through their design; thought I’d address that in the parenthesis here as acknowledgment).

I think the real elephant in the room with WW isn't so much how much power they have or how much potential they have; we're seeing examples of WW being competitive .. but more over I think the way the Devs built the underlying mechanics of how WW skills are designed to interact and synergize off one another might not align with how many players may want to play WW or how many players may feel is intuitive for WW. .. and they might be right.

This might explain why some player struggle, even if they're experienced, whilst others are running leaderboards. Because the play style mechanics are so different now.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

You mean semantics?

"Your paws are too clumsy to stop the autocorrect"

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

You mean semantics?

"Your paws are too clumsy to stop the autocorrect"

Dang. You got me. I am officially ruined now.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

-no purge
-no burst (not like really, go through the skills)
-in-kit immobilize
-no snare
-no snare removal/immunity
-no actual hot (definitely not like vigor)
-no shields in-kit
-limited mag sustain (out of rampage)
-no minor resolve
-minor protection dependent on morph
-major evasion dependent on morph
-no minor maim
list certainly goes on…

I think WW specific passives would be fine, so long as they're geared to align with the overall kit for WW and not classes.

WW already has a lot, and because of that there are some things they don't need or should not have.

* Immobilizations & Snares: WW should not have this so long as Roar is an AoE CC. That's far too overpowered of a mechanical combination. If Roar is adjusted to no longer be an AoE I could see giving WW an immobilization but not a snare. There's already too much CC in PvP as it is and increasing the number of sources of snare, overall, into PvP just adds to imbalance. At least if WW had an immobilization to complement, say, a conal Roar then the value of immobilization immunity doesn't globally diminish in PvP.

* Shields: I don't think there's any circumstance where a shield on a WW makes sense, either lore wise or balance wise. We see consistent examples of WW durability and a shield would be overkill. Now, I do recognize that a good bit of this durability is likely coming from Warden's Green-Keeper or DKs Inexorable so if we take those away I'm not opposed to a WW passive that provides some degree of damage reduction at a measurable point (non static). This would also eliminate the need for Minor Protection.
- side note: I, personally, would like to see a better mechanic than the Hunger passive for healing. I'm not fond of the way that passive is setup because it requires WW to take themselves, essentially, out of combat for a PvP scaled heal that's not overly worth it. Every other build in PvP has the ability to burst & HoT while maintaining combat so I think "sitting down to a body buffet to heal" is very lacking; That could be reworked into a proccable health & resource return.

* No Purge: This is true, but, most classes don't have a purge either and any pure-class that's running in PvP that doesn't have access to one isn't getting one from their Mastery Passives so I don't think WW is inherently entitled to a cleanse. If every class had a purge of some sort then I would agree here, but that's not the case.

There are a lot of sets / monster sets WW cannot use but there's still a large amount of them that they can. Again, there's nothing stopping them from running and proccing Arie's Cry or Pyrebrand which I've seen quite a bit of and which can dial up heavy passive damage. There's a good number of WW running 5pc Shattered + Sharpened + Heartland for a boat load of Pen which can see a WW chunk even a tanky players health. Not everyone can use every set, I'm a Sorc and running Power Overload and I can't use Balorgh either, I had to find another set to complement burst, damage, & Pen buffs; but it seems that there's a solid amount of variety that WW can use.

WW has to have some degree of vulnerabilities for counterplay purposes and despite WW not having a dedicated "burst" skill, per se, we can't pretend that WW isn't outputting serious damage pressure on everyone, including subclassed builds & DKs; and that their pressure is netting them kills and results. Granted, those two might be the more difficult to kill but we're still seeing too many examples of WW excelling in PvP to just think or believe that WW is on any kind of significant downside. Any drawback WW might have right now is minor at best. Otherwise, statistically, we'd be seeing far more players across the board failing to achieve results in PvP and we're not seeing that.

That's not to say that there isn't room to adjust WW, I agree that there is but we cant go making a laundry list of things that we think WW doesn't have and think that's a problem. WW should not have everything, nobody does; not even Dk has everything. Even subclassed builds that can act as their own tank, self healer, and DD don't have access to every combat mechanic in the game.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

-no purge
-no burst (not like really, go through the skills)
-in-kit immobilize
-no snare
-no snare removal/immunity
-no actual hot (definitely not like vigor)
-no shields in-kit
-limited mag sustain (out of rampage)
-no minor resolve
-minor protection dependent on morph
-major evasion dependent on morph
-no minor maim
list certainly goes on…

I think WW specific passives would be fine, so long as they're geared to align with the overall kit for WW and not classes.

WW already has a lot, and because of that there are some things they don't need or should not have.

* Immobilizations & Snares: WW should not have this so long as Roar is an AoE CC. That's far too overpowered of a mechanical combination. If Roar is adjusted to no longer be an AoE I could see giving WW an immobilization but not a snare. There's already too much CC in PvP as it is and increasing the number of sources of snare, overall, into PvP just adds to imbalance. At least if WW had an immobilization to complement, say, a conal Roar then the value of immobilization immunity doesn't globally diminish in PvP.

* Shields: I don't think there's any circumstance where a shield on a WW makes sense, either lore wise or balance wise. We see consistent examples of WW durability and a shield would be overkill. Now, I do recognize that a good bit of this durability is likely coming from Warden's Green-Keeper or DKs Inexorable so if we take those away I'm not opposed to a WW passive that provides some degree of damage reduction at a measurable point (non static). This would also eliminate the need for Minor Protection.
- side note: I, personally, would like to see a better mechanic than the Hunger passive for healing. I'm not fond of the way that passive is setup because it requires WW to take themselves, essentially, out of combat for a PvP scaled heal that's not overly worth it. Every other build in PvP has the ability to burst & HoT while maintaining combat so I think "sitting down to a body buffet to heal" is very lacking; That could be reworked into a proccable health & resource return.

* No Purge: This is true, but, most classes don't have a purge either and any pure-class that's running in PvP that doesn't have access to one isn't getting one from their Mastery Passives so I don't think WW is inherently entitled to a cleanse. If every class had a purge of some sort then I would agree here, but that's not the case.

There are a lot of sets / monster sets WW cannot use but there's still a large amount of them that they can. Again, there's nothing stopping them from running and proccing Arie's Cry or Pyrebrand which I've seen quite a bit of and which can dial up heavy passive damage. There's a good number of WW running 5pc Shattered + Sharpened + Heartland for a boat load of Pen which can see a WW chunk even a tanky players health. Not everyone can use every set, I'm a Sorc and running Power Overload and I can't use Balorgh either, I had to find another set to complement burst, damage, & Pen buffs; but it seems that there's a solid amount of variety that WW can use.

WW has to have some degree of vulnerabilities for counterplay purposes and despite WW not having a dedicated "burst" skill, per se, we can't pretend that WW isn't outputting serious damage pressure on everyone, including subclassed builds & DKs; and that their pressure is netting them kills and results. Granted, those two might be the more difficult to kill but we're still seeing too many examples of WW excelling in PvP to just think or believe that WW is on any kind of significant downside. Any drawback WW might have right now is minor at best. Otherwise, statistically, we'd be seeing far more players across the board failing to achieve results in PvP and we're not seeing that.

That's not to say that there isn't room to adjust WW, I agree that there is but we cant go making a laundry list of things that we think WW doesn't have and think that's a problem. WW should not have everything, nobody does; not even Dk has everything. Even subclassed builds that can act as their own tank, self healer, and DD don't have access to every combat mechanic in the game.

There has never been a class/subclass (honestly don’t care what you call it, I don’t see many ‘shifter’ builds out there for a reason) that trades out nearly as much as werewolf does.

I mean it took like 5 years for Necro to have even the most basic of Major buffs and a useable spammable but sure go off.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

There is no way you waived off this list of things we don’t have as if we don’t deserve anything else xD.

Everyone has access to snare removal/major expedition in some capacity in human for with little expense (DW blade cloak). If DK is any indicator, YES, reworked classes will have MANY things they didn’t have before: consistent burst, pressure, sustain, BIG snare, snare removal, multiple heals which are also health-based; for every thing werewolf doesn’t have, I can name you 3 that DK does and ergo Warden likely will.

There has never been a class/subclass (honestly don’t care what you call it, I don’t see many ‘shifter’ builds out there for a reason) that trades out nearly as much as werewolf does.

You’re clearly thinking of this in the vacuum of werewolf ‘vs everything else’. Think of this in the mindset of DK vs werewolf and then consider class mastery passives like pure class sorc’s ’conservation of energy’+ max mag stacking as further proof of the direction that we’re headed. Werewolf has an absolute inability to avoid being locked down (or to even lock down since they do not have a snare/immobilize) or catch sustainable targets ‘in a burst’.

As time goes on and class masteries are naturally toned down when power is restored via reworks, alongside the potential for “infinite sustain” becomes the norm- werewolf will likely need what it has just to be functional.

*also, I have not seen any wolves using Pyrebrand this patch but that would definitely be memeing. Set took at hit without class masteries and you essentially want to be pure-class DK with a niche-for-wolf mastery to even pull substantial value from the set.

Major Expedition and snare removal aren't the same mechanic.

Master of the Chase passive provides the equivalent of Major Expedition to WW permanently and Rampage provides an additional 20% so that's a non issue.

As for snare removal, no, not every class has a snare removal or immunity to snares. Blade Cloak doesn't grant immunity, now, players can slot RaT from Psijic but it's not a mechanic inherent to every class, and it can easily become a downside if a player already has a skill slotted that, in combination, already grants Major Expedition; at that point slotting both the class combination skill + RAT become redundant and a waste of a slot, so while it is a good option, it's not a guarantee.

You're somewhat right, I'm not looking at this as WW vs Everything else, I'm looking at this as WW vs DK vs Highest-top end-potential Subclassed build. DK received a lot but even DK didn't receive every combat mechanic in the game. DK does have counterplay; albeit, most of that counterplay is found in your harder hitting subclassed builds as opposed to any other class in the game. It can't be just a perspective of "WW vs DK" because it was subclassing that started the problem and established the power creep + mechanical combos in the first place.

Sorcs Conservation is far from the powerhouse people perceive it to be, even with WW. In my daily experience I see FAR more Warden & DK Werewolves than I do Sorcs. And this is not a surprise because Conservation only delivers sustain and just about every experienced player in ESO PvP was aware of multiple sustain strategies so when it comes to choosing Mastery Passives most are going to choose the ones that deliver the most power or most, overall, versatility, hence Warden & DK. Sorc will give either a Pure Sorc or WW more sustain but it won't give them more power and an experienced WW knows how to manage their resources. So, yeah, there are some Sorc WW out there but I think most players are quickly realizing that's not the strongest play if running WW.

Oh, 100%, the WW's I see running Pyre are absolutely Pure DK's slotting DK Masteries running Wildfire & Inexorable, which works since Pyre acts as a back-door method for a WW to proc Wildfire and scale a lot of passive damage to targets. Once every 10 second a WW's light attacks can proc passive damage that increases in scale by 25% each time, on top of the direct damage they're dealing; and with execute scaling. That's not a bad setup.

WW might not have snare immunity but WW can absolutely lock down target, more effectively than most. Roar is insanely powerful of a CC skill, especially given that it's un-blockable, un-dodgeable, is full AoE so it can affect targets without any accuracy on the part of the WW caster, and has a known, delayed, break-free mechanic; enabling almost guaranteed follow up to the Fear. The only immunity to Fear is the immunity from Fear and every experienced WW knows this and uses the skill repeatedly to put targets on the defensive.

There are a number of mechs that WW doesn't have but WW does have high damage scaling, high durability potential, massive cleave, high mobility, access to major buffs without having to cast, access to the major debuffs without having to separate-cast. WW can do quite a bit within each GCD, more than most builds can; including subclassed builds. .. Take mobility & snare immunity, for example. Many subclassed builds slot BoP for the combination of Expedition + Immunity (Berserk is just a bonus) .. Now that subclassed build will only have Expedition for 6 seconds and immunity for 4 before needing to re-cast. On the other hand, WW doesn't get snare immunity but they have perma-expedition, plus access to an additional 20% during Rampage .. some might consider that a fair tradeoff. .. If we're going to give WW snare / immobilization immunity then we open the door to talk about adjusting WWs movement buff from being a perma-passive to something that requires a cast. Something tells me that if we posted that scenario as a poll to most WW users they wouldn't like that and would rather keep their resource recover + the perma-movement buff as they are now.