When Werewolf Buff?

Wuuffyy · July 13

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We’re seeing a lot, and I do mean a lot, of content demonstrating WW absolutely excelling in PvP post-rework. YT and Reddit are both flooded with examples of WW builds and gameplay that prove WW strength.

Further, if we look through the forums we don’t see really any threads of players asking for a buff or otherwise increase in capability for WW.

It seems that there’s maybe 2 or 3 people in this thread that think WW is somehow under-performing? And the only evidence what so ever that’s been cited is comparing to DK, despite both of those characters / classes working fundamentally differently?

Why are we seeing so much WW elevated results if the rework is so flawed or underperforming? Why aren’t there more players positing issues about WW performance?

You see PLENTY of examples of GOOD/dedicated players using anywhere from abysmal specs (mag blade, etc.) to DK to overcome, outplay, and push the mark significantly over their peers.

I, was provably (meaning I kept screenshots, clips, have testimony from others) doing this with werewolf even directly PRIOR to this rework patch despite it having been in a known, abysmal state while DK was running rampant (in this context, uncontested last patch)- same as any version of meta subclassing.

Good players can overcome. Your average player isn’t making ‘x’ clips or consistently topping leaderboards regardless. With that being said, this does NOT mean that something ‘ISN’T underperforming’ or ‘DOESN’T have issues’ (in this case, current werewolf has legitimate, gameplay-impacting bugs as OP mentioned, info cited further below by the *)

~~~

Moving on, you mentioned DK working fundamentally different from werewolf- I agree.

DK has a metric ton of burst and werewolf has none. Werewolf has a ‘skill ceiling’ (outside of keeping roto up, bash weaving, using rampage at the ‘right’ times) where if a player is overtly survivable, for whatever reason that may be, you literally cannot kill them as you lack the DPS in a ‘burst’ to do so)

As always, you do still trade-off damage for tankiness (contrary to any notion that this isn’t the case for werewolf) and while the consistent pressure from werewolf is nice, adjusting these values ~of course~ still decreases damage relatively proportionally (and ergo a player with less survivability will more consistently survive your ‘pressure’)…

…meanwhile, a DK can build relatively tanky and at minimum ‘crutch’ on onslaught/corro to hit burst numbers ease amounting to 20-40k in 1 to 2 GCDs with little effort while also having less but still great sustain (meaning that they, for example, have the capability to kill most players whereas a werewolf can ‘lack the damage necessary to kill’ even with that aforementioned ‘pressure’)

(fyi, this can kill high health, ‘damage-oriented’ werewolves as well; especially comboed with reworked, delayed fossilize)

~~~

*quick note: If you read OP (clickbait title, I know) you’ll actually see that the vast majority of what they’re referencing are legitimate functionality bugs versus ‘give werewolf a buff’. These are mostly valid, objective feedback points (bugs and non-working functionality are bad and feel bad, mkay).

Most of what the OP is citing as “bugs”, are issues with gameplay but those issues aren’t specific to WW; they’re affecting everyone.

Skills failing to cast
Skills casting on a delay
Inputs failing to properly register a target or correct target location / range
A different action executed than what was triggered.

The OP cites specific skills but those exact same things are happening to players in every class and all skills; especially in PvP. These aren’t WW specific bugs as much as they’re just an abysmally bad current gameplay state.

As for DK vs WW, I do agree; DK can drop massive burst and that’s by design. This is because the meta level crit Subclassed builds can also scale damage that high .. one hit 30K Merciless became commonplace after Subclassing, so DK was refreshed to not only meet that level of power creep but have the associated mechanics / methods to compete.

As for WW, they do have a higher skill floor IMO and they might not have the raw burst that DK has but that doesn’t mean they don’t have any kind of burst. Like I mentioned earlier, even one tick from a non Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will deal 21.5k damage; that’s on par with DK bursts. A one stack Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will see a per tick damage output of 27k .. 2 stacks scales to 32.3k .. so even if the full 4.6 second duration isn’t applied, even that one tick is equitable to some of the heavier bursts in the game.

That’s more than just pressure. Pair that with the insanely powerful AoE Fear as one of the best CC skills in the game and a properly played WW has the potential to chunk even a DK.

In reality an experienced DK vs an experienced WW will likely trade off back & forth quite a bit and that makes sense at the levels of power in PvP. Both can be tanky, WW typically having a higher health pool; both can strong self heal, and both have strong damage potential .. DK is just easier to play and more flexible with their skill sets.

Thank you for the thought-out response.

I personally don’t really see a lot of value in claw fury for the average player (which remains important as a reflective baseline for werewolf to evaluate intrinsic power) in PvP. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable and becomes significantly less intuitive with bite no longer being the main damage spammable (yet draining blood hunger) and ‘blood claws’ no longer generating a stack per person of ‘blood hunger’ (where-as you’d otherwise have to spam/continuously channel claws with far less damage front loaded)

It is very similar to beam and while it outshines bite in coordinated gameplay (such as ‘bombing’/ group ‘turn-and-burn’ strats) it is generally even more horribly utilized by your average player in PvP than using bite as the main spammable.

*also, the counter is usually as simple as walking in/ through the player or moving away with your opponent’s position in mind or rather CC to end and zero their hunger stacks (I.E. their pressure in that case)…

…of course positional dsync is also bound to be very strong with this one

(again, yes I do understand certain components of issues are related to environments like Cyro/areas with many, many calculations due to player skill spam/effects/etc. and ergo not just the skills themselves. Some, like many of werewolf’s skills are very prone to these issues through their design; thought I’d address that in the parenthesis here as acknowledgment).

I think the real elephant in the room with WW isn't so much how much power they have or how much potential they have; we're seeing examples of WW being competitive .. but more over I think the way the Devs built the underlying mechanics of how WW skills are designed to interact and synergize off one another might not align with how many players may want to play WW or how many players may feel is intuitive for WW. .. and they might be right.

This might explain why some player struggle, even if they're experienced, whilst others are running leaderboards. Because the play style mechanics are so different now.

I feel the kit is more comprehensive and cohesive than ever before. The blood hunger mechanic could serve to be sourced in more ways…

…(and there are several QoL issues that could be improved, especially ones focused around the leap, 2-part skill+ the ‘blood claws’ dot duration and a more forgiving hitbox; I personally believe berserker bleed duration should NOT be that short in PvP compared to before either… especially given its damage was nerfed from last patch)…

BUT this is generally, absolutely a significant improvement over pre-rework states regarding at-least kit synergy (and learning this synergy is definitely a form of skill expression… I will say it ‘feels good’ even when attempting to play similarly to the old kit functionality-wise).

With all that being said, claw fury is simply another type of beam. One variant is ‘ST-focused’ and the other is ‘AoE focused’ (like Arc with or without beam/ the difference between DK channel breath and a standard build that doesn’t center around DK channel breath). It makes sense that the 2 play styles aren’t hyper compatible or rather that they force trade-offs for the AoE gains (like ST berserker bleed in PvP being nearly incompatible with the claw fury playstyle).

dark_hunterxmg · July 13

Usureki wrote: »

Please take a minute to look around in the many complaints and threads on these forums or type in 'meta eso build' in youtube and check the top pvp creators. Then you will realize that not the burst damage it is what people are complaining about, but how an adequate damage output is paired with endless health, sustain and great mobility.

Oh I've read the endless posts and complaints and I've seen the streamers claiming how strong it is. Lots of cherry picked clips and data which doesn't at all represent typical performance. There may be a lot of complaints and commentary, but bad information doesn't become good information just because more people say it.
Are we calling "great mobility" 30% speed(still subject to speed cap) and a buggy gap closer? Lack of any snare removal would like a word...
I play this thing nearly every day. I have a pretty good idea of what it is capable of. The claims of "unkillable tEn ThOuSaNd dPs" are laughable. My point is that Werewolf is not as strong as these forums and "top creators" are saying. It is good, but for a reworked playstyle it was released unfinished and needs to be fixed.

duagloth · July 13

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

You mean semantics?

IZZEFlameLash · July 14

duagloth wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

You mean semantics?

"Your paws are too clumsy to stop the autocorrect"

dark_hunterxmg · July 14

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

You mean semantics?

"Your paws are too clumsy to stop the autocorrect"

Dang. You got me. I am officially ruined now.

Triipzzz · July 14

Seriously a buff? What planet are you on.

Every WW in PvP is stacking 40+k health and proc sets capable of killing anyone. I would argue this thing needs a nerf if you want to preserve any form of group play.

It does however have alot of bugs.
- Being discovered from the prowl mechanic will not open your steal eye cue
- They often stand on top of or drag on the group under mounts
- Interacting with siege has no animation, they literally just stand still to burn.
- The scrolls they pick up drag on the ground

Ask yourself why we have a PTS and bother giving feedback if they keep sending these flaws into the live release.

IZZEFlameLash · July 14

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

duagloth wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

You mean semantics?

"Your paws are too clumsy to stop the autocorrect"

Dang. You got me. I am officially ruined now.

Instantly sapped your ult to transform you back to non-WW form, that is my ult.

NxJoeyD · July 14

Triipzzz wrote: »

Seriously a buff? What planet are you on.

Every WW in PvP is stacking 40+k health and proc sets capable of killing anyone. I would argue this thing needs a nerf if you want to preserve any form of group play.

It does however have alot of bugs.
- Being discovered from the prowl mechanic will not open your steal eye cue
- They often stand on top of or drag on the group under mounts
- Interacting with siege has no animation, they literally just stand still to burn.
- The scrolls they pick up drag on the ground

Ask yourself why we have a PTS and bother giving feedback if they keep sending these flaws into the live release.

As for the PTS, as someone who tests & contributes on PTS, Bethesda seemingly only uses a minimal QA team. The lions share of "quality" testing comes from their own customers who volunteer our time to test and feedback through PTS campaigns. The issue is that the Dev team has always been, admittedly, more PvE focused than PvP; they've never really given a hard, objective look at PvP balance up front, it's always after the fact adjustments and then only after a significant amount of feedback. This is why the majority of feedback we see that's negative is usually PvP related. The Devs simply don't devote the energy or attention that they should given that PvP makes up a solid 30% to 40% of the game activity.

In one of the post U50 updates one of the community managers mentioned that the teams never really gave much thought into how PvE establishments carry over into PvP balancing so it would seem as if this is more of a newer viewpoint for them to take and as such there's going to be pain points.

As for WW, I don't think it's fair to call for nerfs. Remember, the whole point of the refreshes is to bring every non-subclassed build up in power with the potential of subclassed builds. If we look at the tippy top of the meta, which is still subclassed builds, we end up with our "baseline goal", that's the area that all classes and character refreshes are looking to achieve.

When the Devs released the DK update they pretty much achieved what they set out to do and what we saw was a significant migration of players back into Pure DK or at least a base DK build. This meant that subclassing was no longer the only option for high end competition in PvP.

The same goes for WW, these characters need to deliver on power and mechanics in order to keep pace. This does mean that for all of the rest of us that there will continue to be a large power imbalance between subclassed builds & those whom have had their refresh and everyone else.

Class Mastery passives did not deliver on elevating all of the pure classes to meet with the top tier of possible performance in PvP .. and let's think for a moment, if Class Mastery passives had done that then there would be no more need for class refreshes would there? The work would be done .. but that isn't the case. Class Masteries were meant to "hold us over".

Back to WW. As I've mentioned before I, personally, think the only 2 adjustments that would be fair for WW would be to change Fear to be a conal zone in front of the WW, affecting any enemies within that cone; rather than being a full AoE. Personally I don't think any CC skill should be full AoE, so Charm would also need addressing.

Secondly, WW shouldn't have access to Class Mastery passives. When we ran the PTS cycles and were testing the Passives and the WW none of us made mention of the effects the Mastery passives had on the WW performance. We knew WW was going to come out strong but none of us raised the flag on this and so we, in the PTS community, dropped the ball on that one. It should have been caught on those cycles that the Mastery passives have very large swings in WW outputs. Sets and set procs are fine, I see no issue with that but the class masteries are a bit much.

Oddly enough we don't see the majority of WW running Sorc, the majority are running pure Warden with Arie's Cry plus Wild Adaptation & Green Keeper; whist an interesting amount are running pure NB to slot the Eye for Exploitation passive, which can seriously dial up a WW output and durability.

We want WW to be strong and they should be because that's the state of gameplay the Devs put us all in. It's not right to nerf WW into oblivion because there's a power imbalance, we know there's going to be an imbalance for some time, unfortunately.

I do agree with many who have said all of the refreshes should have been released at once. Drop the Mastery Passives now and then release all of the refreshed classes at once; that would have made more sense.

Wuuffyy · 12:02AM

I’m only okay with werewolf losing masteries if we receive are own (and again they have rightfully stated wolf deserves options so they should understandably be hard-pressed to ‘punish us’ for having these… I also want further access to wep damage passives like the 2H/DW dagger crit buff if they do this).

What a horrible excuse of balancing to say otherwise. Let me just go through a top of my head list of deficiencies on wolf of things we already don’t have just as a reminder that werewolf does not ‘have everything’:

-no purge
-no burst (not like really, go through the skills)
-no snare
-no snare removal
-no actual hot (definitely not like vigor)
-no shields in-kit
-limited mag sustain (out of rampage)
-no minor resolve
-minor protection dependent on morph
-major evasion dependent on morph
-no minor maim
list certainly goes on…

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Cannot access a monster and a mythic (or weapon sets by extension) like everyone else. Balorgh doesn’t really function for us (which is a staple for viable burst damage in many PvP builds right now)

Monomyth which could at least be viable for damage basically doesn’t function for us damage wise (it defaults to back bar buffs)

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Our burst heal lost healing value from last patch (meaning our max possible hps is significantly reduced at same health values). Our PvP berserker bleed lost damage from last patch (and it’s only 1 second now instead of 4)….

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They are gearing every pure class to have more sustain (which is mainly what we have in spades for stam and at-least in Rampage). Meta subclassing has already allowed up to 2 ‘sustain moves’ in a viable way for PvP in a long time (you can run rune AND netch with assassins for even more damage). In PvE, we are no longer parsing at the top (best of the best) despite being ST with basically non-existent cleave.

Werewolves are very killable and mileage absolutely varies based on the user… tanks with no damage will remain tanks with no damage (you are unlikely to die to a 50k health wolf if you actually heal yourself post-Signet) and 40k health does not immediately equate to 33k resists (also, please remove armor pots, these shouldn’t exist)

We don’t need more egregious, heavy handed, and overtly thoughtless nerfs and exclusions. I very much expect we’ll even need buffs as reworks come through over time.