When Werewolf Buff?

dark_hunterxmg · July 11

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

Mattymoo92 · July 11

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Wup_sa · July 11

These are bug fixes really. Tho WW berserker morph should get a buff so its as easy to keep up as pack leader. Other than that the health scaling abilities need to be nuked to scale of offensive stats.

dark_hunterxmg · July 11

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Is that why so many are on DK and Sorcerer now instead of werewolf? You're wrong, but you're allowed to be wrong.

Wup_sa wrote: »

These are bug fixes really. Tho WW berserker morph should get a buff so its as easy to keep up as pack leader. Other than that the health scaling abilities need to be nuked to scale of offensive stats.

Why? So they can be softer targets than DK, Sorcerer, Templar, Necromancer, and Warden, but still do no damage?

NxJoeyD · July 12

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Is that why so many are on DK and Sorcerer now instead of werewolf? You're wrong, but you're allowed to be wrong.

Wup_sa wrote: »

These are bug fixes really. Tho WW berserker morph should get a buff so its as easy to keep up as pack leader. Other than that the health scaling abilities need to be nuked to scale of offensive stats.

Why? So they can be softer targets than DK, Sorcerer, Templar, Necromancer, and Warden, but still do no damage?

It sounds as though you might be experiencing localized issues. Some of what you're describing I'm not seeing in regular gameplay, at least not PvP, while other things you're seeing I'm also seeing the same things outside of WW.

WW Fear is an AoE with a 10m radius, it's area based so if there is an issue with casting that sounds more like server integrity or latency rather than a bug. I'm seeing Werewolves in PvP fear persistently with no issue, in fact, an AoE hard CC is an incredibly powerful skill to have at all in this game.

What are you seeing that's making you think that Pounce isn't applying Carnage? Carnage only applies if the target is 7m or less and that can be tough to gauge if the target is right at that threshold. One of the strats for dealing with WW is to try and stay or linger outside of that range to prevent the Carnage proc.

Also, as for cast time, don't confuse animation with cast times. There are a lot of skills in this game which have an "instant" cast time but have a clumsy or overly longer-than-necessary animation which sees the time that it takes for the skill to execute it's function to be longer than the player would like.

As for humans being faster than WW, that's debatable. WW has a strong mobility passive and it would really depend on the perspective of lore one want's to use as to whether WW should be (natively) quicker than humans or not. IMO, and this is just my opinion; lore should never trump balance. That being said, WW is fine where it is. WW has Master of the Chase which is equivalent to Major Expedition, plus, WW also get Major Evasion which is arguably one of the strongest damage mitigation buffs in the game. I don't think WW needs to be any quicker than they are. Even if there's a lore viewpoint that would support faster WW, the WW skill kit was already given a lot of deliverables with the skills they can slot.

As for power, WW seems to have far more than enough power. The combo of Fear + Claw Fury is huge. Despite Fury having a 4.6s channel time, even on a mid-built WW, that comes out to a per-tick output of around 22K (roughly 100K total 4.6/s). So even if the target only receives one second or one-ticks worth of the skill the amount of damage applied is on par with even the strongest burst skills in the game. In fact, most builds would need to crit or Ult in order to burst that high in a single instance and here WW can do it in just one tick of one skill. WW also has strong execute scaling so I'm not seeing a problem with WW damage.

Some of the things you're seeing I don't think are specific to WW bugs. Things like skills failing to fire / trigger isn't a WW specific bug, it's affecting everyone. The server state, IMO, right now is one of the worst I've ever seen it. More-so in PvP but I have seen issues in PvE as well.

DK & Werewolf are the only two categories of player character which have had their refresh and both of those are IMMENSLY more powerful than anything else. .. To be fair, in terms of power and capability right now it's basically:

Subclassed Hybrid (usually a combo of DK + Warden + Templar or NB) > Pure DK > Werewolf

Those are, by far, the top 3 strongest build options in ESO right now. Pure Sorcs, Temps, NB, Necro, etc aren't even close. WW doesn't need any buffs. WW skills and abilities should function correctly and that should be fixed, but that goes for everyone.

IMO WW could stand with two adjustments for balance. 1) Fear from Roar should be conal, in front of the WW on targets directly in front of the WW, not an AoE. An AoE hard CC is far too powerful for combat for any character. (This goes for Charm as well). & 2) WW shouldn't have access to Class Mastery passives. When a player enters WW form those should be disabled until the player returns to their original form. Again, the WW skill kit was already given a lot of power and utility. Class Masteries weren't written or balanced with WW in mind, and I know this because I, along with others, tested for them on PTS and that was never part of the discussions.

WW doesn't need to be nerfed but they do need to be adjusted, and to be fair, DK could use a couple as well but that's for another thread. As for WW, no buffs are needed and it sounds like most of what you're describing is more server-state than WW specific downsides.

Usureki · July 12

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

dark_hunterxmg · July 12

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Urzigurumash · July 12

I don't know where good players exist, I only know about ballgroups and Battlegrounds, but in the latter WW Execute is stealing kills like it's 2018 Fury.

Nerf it into non-existence so my Executioner can reign supreme

dark_hunterxmg · July 12

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I don't know where good players exist, I only know about ballgroups and Battlegrounds, but in the latter WW Execute is stealing kills like it's 2018 Fury.

Nerf it into non-existence so my Executioner can reign supreme

The execute scaling on Rip and Tear is terrible. 125% on half of the total damage is like 62.5% on the full value. On what other execute would we find 62.5% scaling acceptable? Your Executioner is better by a lot.

Wup_sa · July 12

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

duagloth · July 12

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

dark_hunterxmg · July 12

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

aLi3nZ · July 13

I read OP as satire.

NxJoeyD · July 13

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

Sorc is FAR from meta, Sorc isn't even near the Meta. I don't know where people keep getting these assumptions from. I main Sorc and have for years, I also tested the Mastery passives on PTS, I'll tell you, Sorc isn't Meta. Sorc has no reliable class spammable, no class cleave, and no spammable burst. In a PvP environment that's dominated by Crit & Burst this sees Sorc trailing. Sorcs got a big bump in sustain but Sorc damage isn't coming from the class, it's coming from World & Weapon skills, namely Dual Wield & Two Hand Stam Sorcs. If anyone thinks Sorcs are meta they're complaint is really the over-tuned nature of World & Weapon skills.

Thanks to Subclassing everyone has access to mobility buffs, everyone has access to gap closers; and many of those have a greater range than Streak, and players all have access to un-blockable stuns ... None of those things are unique to Sorc and haven't been for some time. So can we stop pretending like a class that hasn't even had their refresh yet is somehow meta? If anyone thinks that it's not from a source of fact, it's from a lack of skill.

As for a number of players switching from a different base-class into Sorc as a base class, yes, I agree .. but the reason isn't because Sorc is meta or broken it's because Conservation of Energy & Static Reverb align well with Werewolf and those players want access to those two passives.

Guaranteed, if WW was updated to not have access to Class Mastery passives, like I suggested, watch how many players dump Sorc as their base class because the only reason they want it is to buff their WW play. That doesn't make Sorcs strong, it makes Sorc passives too well aligned with WW, which shouldn't be the case for any class.

NxJoeyD · July 13

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I don't know where good players exist, I only know about ballgroups and Battlegrounds, but in the latter WW Execute is stealing kills like it's 2018 Fury.

Nerf it into non-existence so my Executioner can reign supreme

The execute scaling on Rip and Tear is terrible. 125% on half of the total damage is like 62.5% on the full value. On what other execute would we find 62.5% scaling acceptable? Your Executioner is better by a lot.

Rip & Tear doesn't quite work like that. Rip & Tear does two separate instances of damage with each cast, it's only the 2nd instance that receives the scaling. To just cut the 125% in half and compare that to the other skills across the board is wildly inaccurate.

The reason for only the 2nd instance receiving the scaling is probably because the total amount of both base instances of damage is WAY higher than any of the base damage amounts of any other execute skill in the game so if you applied the 125% scaling to the total output it's going to scale far too high.

Tested scale values on same stats:
Killers Blade > 5,405 > up to 400% starting at 50% target health
Impale > 5,405 > up to 330% starting at 25% health and allow for 28m range
Radiant Glory > 34,824 over 3.8s (9,164 per second) > up to 500% more starting at 33% health + 1,374 heal per second
Radiant Oppression > 34,824 over 3.8s (9,164 per second) > up to 500% more at 40% health
Mages Wrath > 4,054 > flat 14,866 when under 20% health to target + 5m AoE
Endless Fury > 4,054 > flat 14,866 when under 20% health to target only + 4,860 Mag restore

Rip & Tear > 6,001 + 6,000 per instant cast = 12,001 (12,001 per second) > 2nd instance deals 125% under 25% and heals based on max health. *has the option to increase the initial 2 instances of damage & the healing done by 25% per stack.

Bloody Gnash > 6,001 + 6,196 per instant cast = 12,197 (12,197 per second) > 2nd instance deals 200% under 25% + Hemorrhaging *has the option to increase the initial 2 instances of damage by 25% per stack and has a 50% chance not to consume the stack.

Now, admittedly, the WW executes are a bit more complicated than the rest. These are only the skill-based executes, not any Ultis or set procs.

In this case we can see that the base damage output, per second, is higher on WW than any other of the skills in the game. The base scaling is lower, but, while other executes have no way of bumping up their execute scale, WW does, in a sense.

Lets say a WW consumes 2 stacks and bumps up the initial damage by 50%, lets use Rip & Tear as the example:

( (6,001 * 50%) + 6,001) = 9,002 + ((6,000 * 50%) + 6,000) = 9,000 = 18,002 (before execute scaling)

The base damage goes from 12,001 > 18,002, but, more importantly, the execute portion goes from:

Base > 6,000 * 125% = 7,500
Increased > 9,000 * 125% = 11,250

So, base, on a low health target, Rip & Tear could hit a max of 12,001 but a Blood Hunger buffed cast would yield:

9002 + 11,250 = 20,252, the first instance is buffed by 50% and the 2nd instance is buffed and received the execute scale.

If we compare that 20,252 to the other class executes above, from a per-cast or per-second/tick basis, we see the WW executes with the Blood Hunger bonus is in line with the other execute skills in the game, with the exception of Templars Radiant which can scale higher (in total) over a 3.8 second duration.

From a purely numbers perspective WW is in line with everyone else and WW scaling was given plenty of potential to be strong and seems perfectly acceptable by the numbers, it just has to be used properly and that might be the part that's tripping people up. This is one reason why you see WWs persistently howling.

Lets also not forget that the exampled Rip & Tear is also applying Major Breach to the target, a critical debuff in PvP, which no other execute can simultaneously do. In any other case a player would have to separately cast Major Breach and then the execute skill, requiring 2 GCD, whist WW can do the same thing in 1.

Now, if players aren't happy with the mechanics behind how those WW execute skills function, that's a totally separate issue, but, the fact remains that WWs were given fair execute power.

IZZEFlameLash · July 13

NxJoeyD wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

Sorc is FAR from meta, Sorc isn't even near the Meta. I don't know where people keep getting these assumptions from. I main Sorc and have for years, I also tested the Mastery passives on PTS, I'll tell you, Sorc isn't Meta. Sorc has no reliable class spammable, no class cleave, and no spammable burst. In a PvP environment that's dominated by Crit & Burst this sees Sorc trailing. Sorcs got a big bump in sustain but Sorc damage isn't coming from the class, it's coming from World & Weapon skills, namely Dual Wield & Two Hand Stam Sorcs. If anyone thinks Sorcs are meta they're complaint is really the over-tuned nature of World & Weapon skills.

Thanks to Subclassing everyone has access to mobility buffs, everyone has access to gap closers; and many of those have a greater range than Streak, and players all have access to un-blockable stuns ... None of those things are unique to Sorc and haven't been for some time. So can we stop pretending like a class that hasn't even had their refresh yet is somehow meta? If anyone thinks that it's not from a source of fact, it's from a lack of skill.

As for a number of players switching from a different base-class into Sorc as a base class, yes, I agree .. but the reason isn't because Sorc is meta or broken it's because Conservation of Energy & Static Reverb align well with Werewolf and those players want access to those two passives.

Guaranteed, if WW was updated to not have access to Class Mastery passives, like I suggested, watch how many players dump Sorc as their base class because the only reason they want it is to buff their WW play. That doesn't make Sorcs strong, it makes Sorc passives too well aligned with WW, which shouldn't be the case for any class.

"Far from meta" yet nearly all the sweaty ones have moved on to Sorc unless they really like the class they were playing prior to this. You can really tell which class is meta just by seeing what meta hoppers are playing, running almost exactly the same setups, playing almost exactly the same as one another.

NxJoeyD · July 13

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

Sorc is FAR from meta, Sorc isn't even near the Meta. I don't know where people keep getting these assumptions from. I main Sorc and have for years, I also tested the Mastery passives on PTS, I'll tell you, Sorc isn't Meta. Sorc has no reliable class spammable, no class cleave, and no spammable burst. In a PvP environment that's dominated by Crit & Burst this sees Sorc trailing. Sorcs got a big bump in sustain but Sorc damage isn't coming from the class, it's coming from World & Weapon skills, namely Dual Wield & Two Hand Stam Sorcs. If anyone thinks Sorcs are meta they're complaint is really the over-tuned nature of World & Weapon skills.

Thanks to Subclassing everyone has access to mobility buffs, everyone has access to gap closers; and many of those have a greater range than Streak, and players all have access to un-blockable stuns ... None of those things are unique to Sorc and haven't been for some time. So can we stop pretending like a class that hasn't even had their refresh yet is somehow meta? If anyone thinks that it's not from a source of fact, it's from a lack of skill.

As for a number of players switching from a different base-class into Sorc as a base class, yes, I agree .. but the reason isn't because Sorc is meta or broken it's because Conservation of Energy & Static Reverb align well with Werewolf and those players want access to those two passives.

Guaranteed, if WW was updated to not have access to Class Mastery passives, like I suggested, watch how many players dump Sorc as their base class because the only reason they want it is to buff their WW play. That doesn't make Sorcs strong, it makes Sorc passives too well aligned with WW, which shouldn't be the case for any class.

"Far from meta" yet nearly all the sweaty ones have moved on to Sorc unless they really like the class they were playing prior to this. You can really tell which class is meta just by seeing what meta hoppers are playing, running almost exactly the same setups, playing almost exactly the same as one another.

What sweaty ones?

Sweaty players running the meta are running Subclassed builds, most often a combination of DK + Warden and then either Templar or NB Assassination. .. That's your sweaty meta and has been since subclassing. No single, pure, class can deliver all of the damage & utility that those subclassed builds can. A DK comes close, but they should as they just received their refresh.

Now if we're talking "sweaty WW", yeah, some of them may have switched to Sorc and I explained why above, because they want Conservation & Static passives. But that doesn't make Sorc meta that simply makes those two passives strong with WW.

Non-WW Sorcs are nowhere near the top of the power list. Sorcs got more durable but a more durable Sorc doesn't necessarily make a more powerful Sorc. Again, Sorcs have no class cleave, no class spammable burst, and no class direct burst (they're all delayed and/or cleansable).

Pure-Sorcs are, in a sense, what I like to call a strong "cheerleader" class. They can be effective when they have a strong team / squad covering them and enabling them to cast sub-par skills whilst receiving cover. But any Sorc that has to carry their own is more likely Subclassed rather than being a Pure-Sorc because PvP requires strong direct burst and/or cleave and/or Crit and the Sorc class has none.

I've watched the meta and am looking at the Meta ever day and your top leaderboard players in PvP are either Subclassed builds, Subclassed DKs, Pure DKs or WW, in that order.

IZZEFlameLash · July 13

NxJoeyD wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

Sorc is FAR from meta, Sorc isn't even near the Meta. I don't know where people keep getting these assumptions from. I main Sorc and have for years, I also tested the Mastery passives on PTS, I'll tell you, Sorc isn't Meta. Sorc has no reliable class spammable, no class cleave, and no spammable burst. In a PvP environment that's dominated by Crit & Burst this sees Sorc trailing. Sorcs got a big bump in sustain but Sorc damage isn't coming from the class, it's coming from World & Weapon skills, namely Dual Wield & Two Hand Stam Sorcs. If anyone thinks Sorcs are meta they're complaint is really the over-tuned nature of World & Weapon skills.

Thanks to Subclassing everyone has access to mobility buffs, everyone has access to gap closers; and many of those have a greater range than Streak, and players all have access to un-blockable stuns ... None of those things are unique to Sorc and haven't been for some time. So can we stop pretending like a class that hasn't even had their refresh yet is somehow meta? If anyone thinks that it's not from a source of fact, it's from a lack of skill.

As for a number of players switching from a different base-class into Sorc as a base class, yes, I agree .. but the reason isn't because Sorc is meta or broken it's because Conservation of Energy & Static Reverb align well with Werewolf and those players want access to those two passives.

Guaranteed, if WW was updated to not have access to Class Mastery passives, like I suggested, watch how many players dump Sorc as their base class because the only reason they want it is to buff their WW play. That doesn't make Sorcs strong, it makes Sorc passives too well aligned with WW, which shouldn't be the case for any class.

"Far from meta" yet nearly all the sweaty ones have moved on to Sorc unless they really like the class they were playing prior to this. You can really tell which class is meta just by seeing what meta hoppers are playing, running almost exactly the same setups, playing almost exactly the same as one another.

What sweaty ones?

Sweaty players running the meta are running Subclassed builds, most often a combination of DK + Warden and then either Templar or NB Assassination. .. That's your sweaty meta and has been since subclassing. No single, pure, class can deliver all of the damage & utility that those subclassed builds can. A DK comes close, but they should as they just received their refresh.

Now if we're talking "sweaty WW", yeah, some of them may have switched to Sorc and I explained why above, because they want Conservation & Static passives. But that doesn't make Sorc meta that simply makes those two passives strong with WW.

Non-WW Sorcs are nowhere near the top of the power list. Sorcs got more durable but a more durable Sorc doesn't necessarily make a more powerful Sorc. Again, Sorcs have no class cleave, no class spammable burst, and no class direct burst (they're all delayed and/or cleansable).

Pure-Sorcs are, in a sense, what I like to call a strong "cheerleader" class. They can be effective when they have a strong team / squad covering them and enabling them to cast sub-par skills whilst receiving cover. But any Sorc that has to carry their own is more likely Subclassed rather than being a Pure-Sorc because PvP requires strong direct burst and/or cleave and/or Crit and the Sorc class has none.

I've watched the meta and am looking at the Meta ever day and your top leaderboard players in PvP are either Subclassed builds, Subclassed DKs, Pure DKs or WW, in that order.

This is not at all reflective of what is seen in the u50 in both the actual open world pvp and bg. You'd know that subclassing has gone out of favor because of the sheer number of class mastery related procs you encounter in those.

And no, pure Sorc is not at all 'cheerleader'. In fact, Sorc has absolutely 0 incentive to run subclassing builds at the moment. Why lose free shield from Calculated Defense, infinite sustain from Conservation of Energy, free damage boost from Font of Power and free damage proc from Static Reverberation? Unless you want a very specific gank setup with base Sorc, you just don't run subclass on Sorc.

NxJoeyD · July 13

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Well sorc is as broken as dk since you are rewarded for playing like a tank with the best mobility and since sorcs have infinite sustain now, you can just go balls to the wall with dmg.

When a large number of meta DK players from last patch swap to Sorcerer, that's a pretty good tell as to what the meta actually is right now.

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

This has "AkTcHuAlLy" meme all over it. Schematics my dude. It doesn't matter.

Sorc is FAR from meta, Sorc isn't even near the Meta. I don't know where people keep getting these assumptions from. I main Sorc and have for years, I also tested the Mastery passives on PTS, I'll tell you, Sorc isn't Meta. Sorc has no reliable class spammable, no class cleave, and no spammable burst. In a PvP environment that's dominated by Crit & Burst this sees Sorc trailing. Sorcs got a big bump in sustain but Sorc damage isn't coming from the class, it's coming from World & Weapon skills, namely Dual Wield & Two Hand Stam Sorcs. If anyone thinks Sorcs are meta they're complaint is really the over-tuned nature of World & Weapon skills.

Thanks to Subclassing everyone has access to mobility buffs, everyone has access to gap closers; and many of those have a greater range than Streak, and players all have access to un-blockable stuns ... None of those things are unique to Sorc and haven't been for some time. So can we stop pretending like a class that hasn't even had their refresh yet is somehow meta? If anyone thinks that it's not from a source of fact, it's from a lack of skill.

As for a number of players switching from a different base-class into Sorc as a base class, yes, I agree .. but the reason isn't because Sorc is meta or broken it's because Conservation of Energy & Static Reverb align well with Werewolf and those players want access to those two passives.

Guaranteed, if WW was updated to not have access to Class Mastery passives, like I suggested, watch how many players dump Sorc as their base class because the only reason they want it is to buff their WW play. That doesn't make Sorcs strong, it makes Sorc passives too well aligned with WW, which shouldn't be the case for any class.

"Far from meta" yet nearly all the sweaty ones have moved on to Sorc unless they really like the class they were playing prior to this. You can really tell which class is meta just by seeing what meta hoppers are playing, running almost exactly the same setups, playing almost exactly the same as one another.

What sweaty ones?

Sweaty players running the meta are running Subclassed builds, most often a combination of DK + Warden and then either Templar or NB Assassination. .. That's your sweaty meta and has been since subclassing. No single, pure, class can deliver all of the damage & utility that those subclassed builds can. A DK comes close, but they should as they just received their refresh.

Now if we're talking "sweaty WW", yeah, some of them may have switched to Sorc and I explained why above, because they want Conservation & Static passives. But that doesn't make Sorc meta that simply makes those two passives strong with WW.

Non-WW Sorcs are nowhere near the top of the power list. Sorcs got more durable but a more durable Sorc doesn't necessarily make a more powerful Sorc. Again, Sorcs have no class cleave, no class spammable burst, and no class direct burst (they're all delayed and/or cleansable).

Pure-Sorcs are, in a sense, what I like to call a strong "cheerleader" class. They can be effective when they have a strong team / squad covering them and enabling them to cast sub-par skills whilst receiving cover. But any Sorc that has to carry their own is more likely Subclassed rather than being a Pure-Sorc because PvP requires strong direct burst and/or cleave and/or Crit and the Sorc class has none.

I've watched the meta and am looking at the Meta ever day and your top leaderboard players in PvP are either Subclassed builds, Subclassed DKs, Pure DKs or WW, in that order.

This is not at all reflective of what is seen in the u50 in both the actual open world pvp and bg. You'd know that subclassing has gone out of favor because of the sheer number of class mastery related procs you encounter in those.

And no, pure Sorc is not at all 'cheerleader'. In fact, Sorc has absolutely 0 incentive to run subclassing builds at the moment. Why lose free shield from Calculated Defense, infinite sustain from Conservation of Energy, free damage boost from Font of Power and free damage proc from Static Reverberation? Unless you want a very specific gank setup with base Sorc, you just don't run subclass on Sorc.

Who said subclassing has gone out of favor? Where did you get that from?

Even if you look on these very forums the overwhelming feedback on Class Mastery passives is that they did not live up to the expectation, which was to elevate non-refreshed pure-class builds up to the level of power and potential that subclassed builds and/or DKs have. Just look at the screenshot of the poll from this very forum! only 12% think the Mastery passives did the job, everyone else is thinks that they haven't or that they haven't enough. And, if you look at the responses for the 50% group the vast majority of them cite the DK passives specifically; so we're seeing DK even drive up some of the mid-level responses.

We're still seeing a lot of subclassing. What we've seen the highest uptick in is DKs, by far.

As for Sorc. The main ones running Static are WW and that's really because it's the only other passive that pertains to WW. The bread & butter of Sorc passives is, by far, Conservation. WW's can slot Conservation but can't proc any of the other passives besides Static so that's the one that gets slotted.

We did the math on Static in the PTS forums here and found that the Templar's Burning Light passive dealt more, total, damage in parsing sessions than Static Reverb ever did. When the Devs got the feedback they adjusted Static to make it a little stronger but it still trails Burning simply because it doesn't really start to reasonably contribute until the target is below 50% health. Sorcs don't have class skills that can chunk a player's healthy by enough to proc Static before that said target can heal out of the effective health range, but a WW can; so Static on a non-WW is a choice but it's typically not a choice for experienced players.

As for non-WW Sorcs, again, Conservation is the same main go-to for the sustain, which is great but sustain doesn't equal power. Font of Power is the next strongest Sorc passive and delivers fair power but not OP power. Sorcs that put all of their resource into Mag can buff Font & their output but leaves them very exposed to incoming damage so there's a very real tradeoff for trying to scale Font to sky high amounts.

As for Calculated Defense, no Sorc with any real experience in PvP is slotting this. A 0.5/s shield on a class that already has one of the strongest self shields in the game and is used in rotation means that out of all 5 Passive choices a Sorc could make Calc Defense would easily rank 4th and given one can only slot 2 passives this one is very much a back burner item.

Keep in mind that although Conservation does deliver a lot of sustain and Font delivers a fair amount of W/S damage, most Sorcs didn't have an issue with sustain or power prior to the Class Mastery passives. Sorcs that give up subclassing to go to pure-Sorc for the passives also give up whatever damage and/or mechanics that they had been getting from subclassing.

Sorcs have great durability and strong healing but in the current state of PvP, subclassing sees builds being their own tank, DD, & healer all in one. The pain point of Sorcs is the damage, Sorc skills are mechanically poor in comparison to any other class.

I'm in BG's every day and in the IC often and I have clips & screen shots of match recaps showing consistently top tier performance out of subclassed builds, DKs, & WW.

Pure Sorc is difficult to make competitive unless they're running in a ball group that's covering their tail. A comparably powerful solo-Sorc in PvP can be done, but it's incredibly tricky. I've discussed this on other threads in these forums. Sorcs just don't have all of what it takes, we have no class Breach, no spammable, no cleave, no class CC immunity, Streak has no I-frames and only a 15m range .. we have to get all of that elsewhere and there's a W/S penalty Sorcs take for not slotting class skills.

If anyone thinks they're going to go into a BG or IC against hard-core experienced, sweaty players while slotting Frags, Curse, Lightning Form, Streak, Flood, & Wrath and think's they're going to run the leaderboard without being carried, I have bad news for them. Unless they have someone covering them they're going to have a rough time. Everyone has mobility now, everyone has CC now, everyone has gap closers now, and everyone else has high spammable burst & cleave.

Sorcs are one of the easiest classes for me to defeat, even as a Sorc, because they want to lean on skills like Curse (which can be cleansed or healed through) or try and spam Crystal Frags, which has a ridiculous cast time that can be easily blocked. Stam Sorcs will put up more of a fight but even then they're easy to take out. Other Sorc skills require the target to step-in-stupid to actually deal damage, which players don't do.

Sorcs aren't meta, as a class, and a good number of them still subclass despite the class mastery passives simply because subclassing can deliver a ton of what the Sorc class cannot. So as long as a player has a strategy for sustain and damage they don't necessarily- need the Sorc passives because they can get more elsewhere.

I won't say that a good number of Sorcs didn't go back to being a pure-Sorc after U50, but what I am saying is that you don't see them running the top of high end, experienced player leaderboards.

Honestly, this is about WW and whether the request for a buff is supported by facts, and so far, I haven't seen any facts that justify any buffs to an already strong WW build out.

Wuuffyy · July 13

duagloth wrote: »

Mattymoo92 wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Werewolf was rolled out to the live server in an unfinished state. By unfinished, I mean packed with bugs that inhibit the use of abilities.

-Bood Claws doesn't hit moving targets. U49 Claws would never miss.

-Roar will fail to cast (cancel) due to the imposed cast time. This cast time is a huge disservice to Werewolf. The cast time means that you cannot stun a target that you are chasing unless they are less than ~3m away. It also means that when an opponent is low health, they will always be able to cast their life saving heal before they get stunned.

-Pounce/Carnage has a growing list of bugs that have been identified.
- Pounce casts within melee range when it should be Carnage.
-Pounce will cause you to just jump up in the air and land in the same place if your target is on another elevation.
-Pounce shows the damage tick at the start location and not the end location if it casts at all.
-Pounce is not instant cast as stated in the tool tip.
-Pounce has a dead zone where neither Pounce nor Carnage will cast when you are chasing an enemy. Additionally it will remove you from sprint even though it cannot cast, which causes the enemy to get further away.
-Pounce cannot find targets even with a group of enemies in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies further away rather than casting Carnage the ones in front of you.
-Pounce will target enemies behind you.

-Rampage will not activate reliably and gets locked out. We are wasting GCDs to activate try to activate this.

-Human players are still faster than Werewolves.

These are just some of the problems. The list is continously growing.

Next are the nerfs that occurred due to overperforming item sets. Those sets are gone for pvp. The nerfs should be reverted. Werewolf damage is nowhere near where it should be for a melee brawler. Any decent player with heals/shields will not struggle against Werewolf damage. Werewolf damage is pressure only, no burst whatsoever. Werewolf damage relies heavily on proc sets. Stats sets do very little.
7k+ weapon damage and 20k+ armor penetration does nothing to a good player. Where is the damage?
Rip and Tear execute generally hits good players for 2k-4k is that what we're calling execute scaling? Make Rip and Tear a single hit and scale on the full value so that it actually might make a difference.
Feral Cruelty should be a 33% damage buff as originally intended. Even with that change, we won't see numbers that human players can produce in a single hit. 10k, 12k, 15k, 19k are numbers that I see from single hits from human skills with no execute scaling. You will never see that from a Rip and Tear against a good player.

We're already back to meme status again. Tanky no damage or Squishy mid damage.

This take is just not it. Werewolf is THE best class alongside DK in PvP

Hate to break it to you but this is one of the times where the issue is skill

Werewolf isnt a class, is vampire a class? Fighter guilds? Undaunted? Mages guild?

Werewolf had a class rep in the official class rep program.

It functions as a hybrid between a class and a subclass. I can’t use weapon passives but I can use SOME of my classes passives.

I am locked out of any and all non werewolf functions while in werewolf. Just like a pure sorc (in combat) is locked out of any non-sorc abilities.

This excuse remains a massive ‘cop out’.

Not to mention SO many things scale off health nowadays (I didn’t even realize this myself I honestly thought they ripped this with polar but ig not)… and the burst heal was nerfed from prior patch (not buffed contrary to popular belief)

Usureki · July 13

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Umm.. so do I get it right that the problem you perceive is that your WW is not 100% meta against the other two OP meta monsters we have atm. Dude...

Have you ever considered that there are other players playing this game too? While you are complaining from the podium, how the remaining 5 of the 7 classes still left in the dirt, especially necro and arca? Do you really think that the top prio of the remaining ZOS team should be getting your already OP setup and fine-tune it, instead of working on the idk.. 75% other part of the game? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that WW received some love and the update it got is cool and all, but seeing the same gameplay that deletes my character over and over again is just stale and miserable - I welcome the diversity the powerful Sorcerer brings to the table an I wish there were even more viable options to build with for PvP.

Please take a minute to look around in the many complaints and threads on these forums or type in 'meta eso build' in youtube and check the top pvp creators. Then you will realize that not the burst damage it is what people are complaining about, but how an adequate damage output is paired with endless health, sustain and great mobility.

Wuuffyy · July 13

Usureki wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Umm.. so do I get it right that the problem you perceive is that your WW is not 100% meta against the other two OP meta monsters we have atm. Dude...

Have you ever considered that there are other players playing this game too? While you are complaining from the podium, how the remaining 5 of the 7 classes still left in the dirt, especially necro and arca? Do you really think that the top prio of the remaining ZOS team should be getting your already OP setup and fine-tune it, instead of working on the idk.. 75% other part of the game? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that WW received some love and the update it got is cool and all, but seeing the same gameplay that deletes my character over and over again is just stale and miserable - I welcome the diversity the powerful Sorcerer brings to the table an I wish there were even more viable options to build with for PvP.

Please take a minute to look around in the many complaints and threads on these forums or type in 'meta eso build' in youtube and check the top pvp creators. Then you will realize that not the burst damage it is what people are complaining about, but how an adequate damage output is paired with endless health, sustain and great mobility.

I have countless clips and screenshots of various 20k whips, DKs (DK being the only official, fully complete ‘new level’ class atm) that can both half or empty your health bar (40k+ health and 30k+ resist btw) in a second while also being able to hold block in the middle of an open field in Cyro and not die… for eternity (and NO, I am not referring to strictly ‘good’ players)

DK has the same or a similar capacity for pressure (post Signet nerf) while being organically tankier and also having a snare removal+ major expo (with that burst too).

“People” complain about the fact that werewolf, which has not been relevant for years and ergo not ‘in their face’, is now able to actually exist, hang, and potentially execute functions without feeding the ego of the average meta build user for free (and even then, I have SO many clips of werewolves just falling over while being in the 25-50k health range… so even that isn’t as ‘free’ or insulating as ‘anti-one-bar’ players cite it to be).

“People” don’t like change and the “people” that complain cite the silliest reasons like “not a class”, “one bar”, and “should be meme spec” as their ‘valid’ reasons why werewolf performance should be abysmal.

///

Regardless of the incessant complaining to try and place werewolf back into non-existence, this should not limit them from fixing bugs, desync issues, and animation issues (when they can of course); same as DK.

Usureki · July 13

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Umm.. so do I get it right that the problem you perceive is that your WW is not 100% meta against the other two OP meta monsters we have atm. Dude...

Have you ever considered that there are other players playing this game too? While you are complaining from the podium, how the remaining 5 of the 7 classes still left in the dirt, especially necro and arca? Do you really think that the top prio of the remaining ZOS team should be getting your already OP setup and fine-tune it, instead of working on the idk.. 75% other part of the game? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that WW received some love and the update it got is cool and all, but seeing the same gameplay that deletes my character over and over again is just stale and miserable - I welcome the diversity the powerful Sorcerer brings to the table an I wish there were even more viable options to build with for PvP.

Please take a minute to look around in the many complaints and threads on these forums or type in 'meta eso build' in youtube and check the top pvp creators. Then you will realize that not the burst damage it is what people are complaining about, but how an adequate damage output is paired with endless health, sustain and great mobility.

I have countless clips and screenshots of various 20k whips, DKs that don’t die and can half or empty your health bar in a second regardless of health while also being able to hold block in the middle of an open field in Cyro and not die… for eternity (and NO, I am not referring to strictly ‘good’ players)

DK has the same or a similar capacity for pressure while being organically tankier and also having a snare removal+ major expo (with that burst too).

“People” complain about the fact that werewolf, which has not been relevant for years and ergo not ‘in their face’, is now able to actually exist, hang, and potentially execute functions without feeding the ego of the average meta build user for free (and even then, I have SO many clips of werewolves just falling over while being in the 25-50k health range… so even that isn’t as ‘free’ or insulating as ‘anti-one-bar’ players cite it to be). “People” don’t like change and the “people” that complain cite the silliest reasons like “not a class”, “one bar”, and “should be meme spec” as their ‘valid’ reasons why werewolf performance should be abysmal.

///

Regardless of the incessant complaining to try and place werewolf back into non-existence, this should not limit them from fixing bugs, desync issues, and animation issues (when they can of course); same as DK.

Is that it? Is your big reason against bringing other classes to the WW level or bringing WW to other classes level (called balance) is simply that DKs are OP too?

Wuuffyy · July 13

Usureki wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

I was sceptical about some others pointing out earlier in the forums, that whatever opinion can exist, it will exist on this forum. Seeing how somebody actually managed to create a post, asking to buff werewolves in the current meta absolutely proved this point. Some points seem to be bug fixing requests, but others are asking to make a killing machine that is more powerful right out of the box than 95% of any build regardless of its one bar setup.

Bro, are we playing the same game? I think you are in a dire need of a reality check.

Have you ever experienced the 'joy' of trying to face a WW that knows what they doing w/ any class other than DK or Sorc?

I'm glad someone said it. Sorcerer. The elephant in the room. The class that hasn't been reworked yet and is S-tier. More damage, mobility, utility, survivability than a Werewolf, yet isn't being talked about.

Sounds like we aren't playing the same game. I was told by these forums that Werewolf is some super crazy high damage powerhouse, but I have yet to see it. According to these forums werewolf is killing everything in sight and there is nothing to be done. Have you actually played it against good players? Because I have and it isn't that. I output more dps than 100% of the Werewolves that I encounter and I am not seeing the high damage that most of these forum threads claim.

Go play the thing. Fight good players. You will see exactly what I am talking about.

Umm.. so do I get it right that the problem you perceive is that your WW is not 100% meta against the other two OP meta monsters we have atm. Dude...

Have you ever considered that there are other players playing this game too? While you are complaining from the podium, how the remaining 5 of the 7 classes still left in the dirt, especially necro and arca? Do you really think that the top prio of the remaining ZOS team should be getting your already OP setup and fine-tune it, instead of working on the idk.. 75% other part of the game? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that WW received some love and the update it got is cool and all, but seeing the same gameplay that deletes my character over and over again is just stale and miserable - I welcome the diversity the powerful Sorcerer brings to the table an I wish there were even more viable options to build with for PvP.

Please take a minute to look around in the many complaints and threads on these forums or type in 'meta eso build' in youtube and check the top pvp creators. Then you will realize that not the burst damage it is what people are complaining about, but how an adequate damage output is paired with endless health, sustain and great mobility.

I have countless clips and screenshots of various 20k whips, DKs that don’t die and can half or empty your health bar in a second regardless of health while also being able to hold block in the middle of an open field in Cyro and not die… for eternity (and NO, I am not referring to strictly ‘good’ players)

DK has the same or a similar capacity for pressure while being organically tankier and also having a snare removal+ major expo (with that burst too).

“People” complain about the fact that werewolf, which has not been relevant for years and ergo not ‘in their face’, is now able to actually exist, hang, and potentially execute functions without feeding the ego of the average meta build user for free (and even then, I have SO many clips of werewolves just falling over while being in the 25-50k health range… so even that isn’t as ‘free’ or insulating as ‘anti-one-bar’ players cite it to be). “People” don’t like change and the “people” that complain cite the silliest reasons like “not a class”, “one bar”, and “should be meme spec” as their ‘valid’ reasons why werewolf performance should be abysmal.

///

Regardless of the incessant complaining to try and place werewolf back into non-existence, this should not limit them from fixing bugs, desync issues, and animation issues (when they can of course); same as DK.

Is that it? Is your big reason against bringing other classes to the WW level or bringing WW to other classes level (called balance) is simply that DKs are OP too?

DK is ‘werewolf level’ (I.E. ‘reworked level’ or rather ‘different from the majority of specs at this point of the game), werewolf is ‘DK level’, and both have trade-offs to what they can and can’t do. Pure class sorc is up there also, especially ‘mag sorc’ in OW. Warden will be more or less the same.

I don’t want DK nerfed and I will not ask for Warden to be nerfed. People are stuck in 2016 with their ideologies of power levels, ‘proc sets bad’, ‘Wildfire is unholy because it’s a hard hitting ‘proc’’, etc. (and/or they are somehow just completely unaware of the function of these reworks for balance). These people REALLY need to go to vengeance (with all its calm, balanced goodness) and stay there… EXCEPT, people currently STILL prefer this version of PvP to that.

///

The only major, structural ‘mistakes’ they seemingly made for this was releasing the werewolf rework too early in the rework line (before a few other classes; albeit this was likely done to give themselves a ‘break’ between DK and upcoming warden) and releasing 1 class/spec only roughly once a quarter (versus multiple at once and/or all
in less than a year; still, likely done to allow more time to work on each rework while still releasing other content also).

NxJoeyD · July 13

We’re seeing a lot, and I do mean a lot, of content demonstrating WW absolutely excelling in PvP post-rework. YT and Reddit are both flooded with examples of WW builds and gameplay that prove WW strength.

Further, if we look through the forums we don’t see really any threads of players asking for a buff or otherwise increase in capability for WW.

It seems that there’s maybe 2 or 3 people in this thread that think WW is somehow under-performing? And the only evidence what so ever that’s been cited is comparing to DK, despite both of those characters / classes working fundamentally differently?

Why are we seeing so much WW elevated results if the rework is so flawed or underperforming? Why aren’t there more players positing issues about WW performance?

In truth, and this is just my guess, is that the WW rework went the other way in terms of skill floor versus what Subclassing did. Subclassing enabled low skill spamming and rewarded players for doing it. Now, I’m not saying that’s what WW players do, but, it would seem that the WW rework elevated WW power but made it harder to play in order to do so.

There’s an intended play style that’s needed to maximize WW and that’s clear based on how WW is built. If we look at the details of the tooltips for WW skills we can see how they’re designed to synergize off one another; meaning that if a WW player isn’t properly supporting the use of their skills by buffing them with other actions, their outcome is going to fall short of the max potential.

I, personally, like this approach because it forces a degree of combat strategy to the use of WW

WW isn’t weak for lacking, per se, but, if the player doesn’t use WW properly they are going to struggle.

DK may be arguably stronger than WW depending on some build details but they’re not far off when played with experience.

serga523 · July 13

Whoever says that the werewolf is very strong in PvP, you just don't know how to play your character. The werewolf is easily killed by poison. Now, the werewolf's ability damage in PvE has become worthy of using its form where necessary, especially in solo play.

mmtaniac · July 13

WW are strong just people adapt to counter them that's all.

Wuuffyy · July 13

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We’re seeing a lot, and I do mean a lot, of content demonstrating WW absolutely excelling in PvP post-rework. YT and Reddit are both flooded with examples of WW builds and gameplay that prove WW strength.

Further, if we look through the forums we don’t see really any threads of players asking for a buff or otherwise increase in capability for WW.

It seems that there’s maybe 2 or 3 people in this thread that think WW is somehow under-performing? And the only evidence what so ever that’s been cited is comparing to DK, despite both of those characters / classes working fundamentally differently?

Why are we seeing so much WW elevated results if the rework is so flawed or underperforming? Why aren’t there more players positing issues about WW performance?

You see PLENTY of examples of GOOD/dedicated players using anywhere from abysmal specs (mag blade, etc.) to DK to overcome, outplay, and push the mark significantly over their peers.

I, was provably (meaning I kept screenshots, clips, have testimony from others) doing this with werewolf even directly PRIOR to this rework patch despite it having been in a known, abysmal state while DK was running rampant (in this context, uncontested last patch)- same as any version of meta subclassing.

Good players can overcome. Your average player isn’t making ‘x’ clips or consistently topping leaderboards regardless. With that being said, this does NOT mean that something ‘ISN’T underperforming’ or ‘DOESN’T have issues’ (in this case, current werewolf has legitimate, gameplay-impacting bugs as OP mentioned, info cited further below by the *)

~~~

Moving on, you mentioned DK working fundamentally different from werewolf- I agree.

DK has a metric ton of burst and werewolf has none. Werewolf has a ‘skill ceiling’ (outside of keeping roto up, bash weaving, using rampage at the ‘right’ times) where if a player is overtly survivable, for whatever reason that may be, you literally cannot kill them as you lack the DPS in a ‘burst’ to do so)

As always, you do still trade-off damage for tankiness (contrary to any notion that this isn’t the case for werewolf) and while the consistent pressure from werewolf is nice, adjusting these values ~of course~ still decreases damage relatively proportionally (and ergo a player with less survivability will more consistently survive your ‘pressure’)…

…meanwhile, a DK can build relatively tanky and at minimum ‘crutch’ on onslaught/corro to hit burst numbers ease amounting to 20-40k in 1 to 2 GCDs with little effort while also having less but still great sustain (meaning that they, for example, have the capability to kill most players whereas a werewolf can ‘lack the damage necessary to kill’ even with that aforementioned ‘pressure’)

(fyi, this can kill high health, ‘damage-oriented’ werewolves as well; especially comboed with reworked, delayed fossilize)

~~~

*quick note: If you read OP (clickbait title, I know) you’ll actually see that the vast majority of what they’re referencing are legitimate functionality bugs versus ‘give werewolf a buff’. These are mostly valid, objective feedback points (bugs and non-working functionality are bad and feel bad, mkay).

NxJoeyD · July 13

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We’re seeing a lot, and I do mean a lot, of content demonstrating WW absolutely excelling in PvP post-rework. YT and Reddit are both flooded with examples of WW builds and gameplay that prove WW strength.

Further, if we look through the forums we don’t see really any threads of players asking for a buff or otherwise increase in capability for WW.

It seems that there’s maybe 2 or 3 people in this thread that think WW is somehow under-performing? And the only evidence what so ever that’s been cited is comparing to DK, despite both of those characters / classes working fundamentally differently?

Why are we seeing so much WW elevated results if the rework is so flawed or underperforming? Why aren’t there more players positing issues about WW performance?

You see PLENTY of examples of GOOD/dedicated players using anywhere from abysmal specs (mag blade, etc.) to DK to overcome, outplay, and push the mark significantly over their peers.

I, was provably (meaning I kept screenshots, clips, have testimony from others) doing this with werewolf even directly PRIOR to this rework patch despite it having been in a known, abysmal state while DK was running rampant (in this context, uncontested last patch)- same as any version of meta subclassing.

Good players can overcome. Your average player isn’t making ‘x’ clips or consistently topping leaderboards regardless. With that being said, this does NOT mean that something ‘ISN’T underperforming’ or ‘DOESN’T have issues’ (in this case, current werewolf has legitimate, gameplay-impacting bugs as OP mentioned, info cited further below by the *)

~~~

Moving on, you mentioned DK working fundamentally different from werewolf- I agree.

DK has a metric ton of burst and werewolf has none. Werewolf has a ‘skill ceiling’ (outside of keeping roto up, bash weaving, using rampage at the ‘right’ times) where if a player is overtly survivable, for whatever reason that may be, you literally cannot kill them as you lack the DPS in a ‘burst’ to do so)

As always, you do still trade-off damage for tankiness (contrary to any notion that this isn’t the case for werewolf) and while the consistent pressure from werewolf is nice, adjusting these values ~of course~ still decreases damage relatively proportionally (and ergo a player with less survivability will more consistently survive your ‘pressure’)…

…meanwhile, a DK can build relatively tanky and at minimum ‘crutch’ on onslaught/corro to hit burst numbers ease amounting to 20-40k in 1 to 2 GCDs with little effort while also having less but still great sustain (meaning that they, for example, have the capability to kill most players whereas a werewolf can ‘lack the damage necessary to kill’ even with that aforementioned ‘pressure’)

(fyi, this can kill high health, ‘damage-oriented’ werewolves as well; especially comboed with reworked, delayed fossilize)

~~~

*quick note: If you read OP (clickbait title, I know) you’ll actually see that the vast majority of what they’re referencing are legitimate functionality bugs versus ‘give werewolf a buff’. These are mostly valid, objective feedback points (bugs and non-working functionality are bad and feel bad, mkay).

Most of what the OP is citing as “bugs”, are issues with gameplay but those issues aren’t specific to WW; they’re affecting everyone.

Skills failing to cast
Skills casting on a delay
Inputs failing to properly register a target or correct target location / range
A different action executed than what was triggered.

The OP cites specific skills but those exact same things are happening to players in every class and all skills; especially in PvP. These aren’t WW specific bugs as much as they’re just an abysmally bad current gameplay state.

As for DK vs WW, I do agree; DK can drop massive burst and that’s by design. This is because the meta level crit Subclassed builds can also scale damage that high .. one hit 30K Merciless became commonplace after Subclassing, so DK was refreshed to not only meet that level of power creep but have the associated mechanics / methods to compete.

As for WW, they do have a higher skill floor IMO and they might not have the raw burst that DK has but that doesn’t mean they don’t have any kind of burst. Like I mentioned earlier, even one tick from a non Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will deal 21.5k damage; that’s on par with DK bursts. A one stack Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will see a per tick damage output of 27k .. 2 stacks scales to 32.3k .. so even if the full 4.6 second duration isn’t applied, even that one tick is equitable to some of the heavier bursts in the game.

That’s more than just pressure. Pair that with the insanely powerful AoE Fear as one of the best CC skills in the game and a properly played WW has the potential to chunk even a DK.

In reality an experienced DK vs an experienced WW will likely trade off back & forth quite a bit and that makes sense at the levels of power in PvP. Both can be tanky, WW typically having a higher health pool; both can strong self heal, and both have strong damage potential .. DK is just easier to play and more flexible with their skill sets.

Wuuffyy · July 13

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We’re seeing a lot, and I do mean a lot, of content demonstrating WW absolutely excelling in PvP post-rework. YT and Reddit are both flooded with examples of WW builds and gameplay that prove WW strength.

Further, if we look through the forums we don’t see really any threads of players asking for a buff or otherwise increase in capability for WW.

It seems that there’s maybe 2 or 3 people in this thread that think WW is somehow under-performing? And the only evidence what so ever that’s been cited is comparing to DK, despite both of those characters / classes working fundamentally differently?

Why are we seeing so much WW elevated results if the rework is so flawed or underperforming? Why aren’t there more players positing issues about WW performance?

You see PLENTY of examples of GOOD/dedicated players using anywhere from abysmal specs (mag blade, etc.) to DK to overcome, outplay, and push the mark significantly over their peers.

I, was provably (meaning I kept screenshots, clips, have testimony from others) doing this with werewolf even directly PRIOR to this rework patch despite it having been in a known, abysmal state while DK was running rampant (in this context, uncontested last patch)- same as any version of meta subclassing.

Good players can overcome. Your average player isn’t making ‘x’ clips or consistently topping leaderboards regardless. With that being said, this does NOT mean that something ‘ISN’T underperforming’ or ‘DOESN’T have issues’ (in this case, current werewolf has legitimate, gameplay-impacting bugs as OP mentioned, info cited further below by the *)

~~~

Moving on, you mentioned DK working fundamentally different from werewolf- I agree.

DK has a metric ton of burst and werewolf has none. Werewolf has a ‘skill ceiling’ (outside of keeping roto up, bash weaving, using rampage at the ‘right’ times) where if a player is overtly survivable, for whatever reason that may be, you literally cannot kill them as you lack the DPS in a ‘burst’ to do so)

As always, you do still trade-off damage for tankiness (contrary to any notion that this isn’t the case for werewolf) and while the consistent pressure from werewolf is nice, adjusting these values ~of course~ still decreases damage relatively proportionally (and ergo a player with less survivability will more consistently survive your ‘pressure’)…

…meanwhile, a DK can build relatively tanky and at minimum ‘crutch’ on onslaught/corro to hit burst numbers ease amounting to 20-40k in 1 to 2 GCDs with little effort while also having less but still great sustain (meaning that they, for example, have the capability to kill most players whereas a werewolf can ‘lack the damage necessary to kill’ even with that aforementioned ‘pressure’)

(fyi, this can kill high health, ‘damage-oriented’ werewolves as well; especially comboed with reworked, delayed fossilize)

~~~

*quick note: If you read OP (clickbait title, I know) you’ll actually see that the vast majority of what they’re referencing are legitimate functionality bugs versus ‘give werewolf a buff’. These are mostly valid, objective feedback points (bugs and non-working functionality are bad and feel bad, mkay).

Most of what the OP is citing as “bugs”, are issues with gameplay but those issues aren’t specific to WW; they’re affecting everyone.

Skills failing to cast
Skills casting on a delay
Inputs failing to properly register a target or correct target location / range
A different action executed than what was triggered.

The OP cites specific skills but those exact same things are happening to players in every class and all skills; especially in PvP. These aren’t WW specific bugs as much as they’re just an abysmally bad current gameplay state.

As for DK vs WW, I do agree; DK can drop massive burst and that’s by design. This is because the meta level crit Subclassed builds can also scale damage that high .. one hit 30K Merciless became commonplace after Subclassing, so DK was refreshed to not only meet that level of power creep but have the associated mechanics / methods to compete.

As for WW, they do have a higher skill floor IMO and they might not have the raw burst that DK has but that doesn’t mean they don’t have any kind of burst. Like I mentioned earlier, even one tick from a non Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will deal 21.5k damage; that’s on par with DK bursts. A one stack Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will see a per tick damage output of 27k .. 2 stacks scales to 32.3k .. so even if the full 4.6 second duration isn’t applied, even that one tick is equitable to some of the heavier bursts in the game.

That’s more than just pressure. Pair that with the insanely powerful AoE Fear as one of the best CC skills in the game and a properly played WW has the potential to chunk even a DK.

In reality an experienced DK vs an experienced WW will likely trade off back & forth quite a bit and that makes sense at the levels of power in PvP. Both can be tanky, WW typically having a higher health pool; both can strong self heal, and both have strong damage potential .. DK is just easier to play and more flexible with their skill sets.

Thank you for the thought-out response.

I personally don’t really see a lot of value in claw fury for the average player (which remains important as a reflective baseline for werewolf to evaluate intrinsic power) in PvP. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable and becomes significantly less intuitive with bite no longer being the main damage spammable (yet draining blood hunger) and ‘blood claws’ no longer generating a stack per person of ‘blood hunger’ (where-as you’d otherwise have to spam/continuously channel claws with far less damage front loaded)

It is very similar to beam and while it outshines bite in coordinated gameplay (such as ‘bombing’/ group ‘turn-and-burn’ strats) it is generally even more horribly utilized by your average player in PvP than using bite as the main spammable.

*also, the counter is usually as simple as walking in/ through the player or moving away with your opponent’s position in mind or rather CC to end and zero their hunger stacks (I.E. their pressure in that case)…

…of course positional dsync is also bound to be very strong with this one

(again, yes I do understand certain components of issues are related to environments like Cyro/areas with many, many calculations due to player skill spam/effects/etc. and ergo not just the skills themselves. Some, like many of werewolf’s skills are very prone to these issues through their design; thought I’d address that in the parenthesis here as acknowledgment).

NxJoeyD · July 13

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

We’re seeing a lot, and I do mean a lot, of content demonstrating WW absolutely excelling in PvP post-rework. YT and Reddit are both flooded with examples of WW builds and gameplay that prove WW strength.

Further, if we look through the forums we don’t see really any threads of players asking for a buff or otherwise increase in capability for WW.

It seems that there’s maybe 2 or 3 people in this thread that think WW is somehow under-performing? And the only evidence what so ever that’s been cited is comparing to DK, despite both of those characters / classes working fundamentally differently?

Why are we seeing so much WW elevated results if the rework is so flawed or underperforming? Why aren’t there more players positing issues about WW performance?

You see PLENTY of examples of GOOD/dedicated players using anywhere from abysmal specs (mag blade, etc.) to DK to overcome, outplay, and push the mark significantly over their peers.

I, was provably (meaning I kept screenshots, clips, have testimony from others) doing this with werewolf even directly PRIOR to this rework patch despite it having been in a known, abysmal state while DK was running rampant (in this context, uncontested last patch)- same as any version of meta subclassing.

Good players can overcome. Your average player isn’t making ‘x’ clips or consistently topping leaderboards regardless. With that being said, this does NOT mean that something ‘ISN’T underperforming’ or ‘DOESN’T have issues’ (in this case, current werewolf has legitimate, gameplay-impacting bugs as OP mentioned, info cited further below by the *)

~~~

Moving on, you mentioned DK working fundamentally different from werewolf- I agree.

DK has a metric ton of burst and werewolf has none. Werewolf has a ‘skill ceiling’ (outside of keeping roto up, bash weaving, using rampage at the ‘right’ times) where if a player is overtly survivable, for whatever reason that may be, you literally cannot kill them as you lack the DPS in a ‘burst’ to do so)

As always, you do still trade-off damage for tankiness (contrary to any notion that this isn’t the case for werewolf) and while the consistent pressure from werewolf is nice, adjusting these values ~of course~ still decreases damage relatively proportionally (and ergo a player with less survivability will more consistently survive your ‘pressure’)…

…meanwhile, a DK can build relatively tanky and at minimum ‘crutch’ on onslaught/corro to hit burst numbers ease amounting to 20-40k in 1 to 2 GCDs with little effort while also having less but still great sustain (meaning that they, for example, have the capability to kill most players whereas a werewolf can ‘lack the damage necessary to kill’ even with that aforementioned ‘pressure’)

(fyi, this can kill high health, ‘damage-oriented’ werewolves as well; especially comboed with reworked, delayed fossilize)

~~~

*quick note: If you read OP (clickbait title, I know) you’ll actually see that the vast majority of what they’re referencing are legitimate functionality bugs versus ‘give werewolf a buff’. These are mostly valid, objective feedback points (bugs and non-working functionality are bad and feel bad, mkay).

Most of what the OP is citing as “bugs”, are issues with gameplay but those issues aren’t specific to WW; they’re affecting everyone.

Skills failing to cast
Skills casting on a delay
Inputs failing to properly register a target or correct target location / range
A different action executed than what was triggered.

The OP cites specific skills but those exact same things are happening to players in every class and all skills; especially in PvP. These aren’t WW specific bugs as much as they’re just an abysmally bad current gameplay state.

As for DK vs WW, I do agree; DK can drop massive burst and that’s by design. This is because the meta level crit Subclassed builds can also scale damage that high .. one hit 30K Merciless became commonplace after Subclassing, so DK was refreshed to not only meet that level of power creep but have the associated mechanics / methods to compete.

As for WW, they do have a higher skill floor IMO and they might not have the raw burst that DK has but that doesn’t mean they don’t have any kind of burst. Like I mentioned earlier, even one tick from a non Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will deal 21.5k damage; that’s on par with DK bursts. A one stack Blood Hunger buffed Claw Fury will see a per tick damage output of 27k .. 2 stacks scales to 32.3k .. so even if the full 4.6 second duration isn’t applied, even that one tick is equitable to some of the heavier bursts in the game.

That’s more than just pressure. Pair that with the insanely powerful AoE Fear as one of the best CC skills in the game and a properly played WW has the potential to chunk even a DK.

In reality an experienced DK vs an experienced WW will likely trade off back & forth quite a bit and that makes sense at the levels of power in PvP. Both can be tanky, WW typically having a higher health pool; both can strong self heal, and both have strong damage potential .. DK is just easier to play and more flexible with their skill sets.

Thank you for the thought-out response.

I personally don’t really see a lot of value in claw fury for the average player (which remains important as a reflective baseline for werewolf to evaluate intrinsic power) in PvP. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable and becomes significantly less intuitive with bite no longer being the main damage spammable (yet draining blood hunger) and ‘blood claws’ no longer generating a stack per person of ‘blood hunger’ (where-as you’d otherwise have to spam/continuously channel claws with far less damage front loaded)

It is very similar to beam and while it outshines bite in coordinated gameplay (such as ‘bombing’/ group ‘turn-and-burn’ strats) it is generally even more horribly utilized by your average player in PvP than using bite as the main spammable.

*also, the counter is usually as simple as walking in/ through the player or moving away with your opponent’s position in mind or rather CC to end and zero their hunger stacks (I.E. their pressure in that case)…

…of course positional dsync is also bound to be very strong with this one

(again, yes I do understand certain components of issues are related to environments like Cyro/areas with many, many calculations due to player skill spam/effects/etc. and ergo not just the skills themselves. Some, like many of werewolf’s skills are very prone to these issues through their design; thought I’d address that in the parenthesis here as acknowledgment).

I think the real elephant in the room with WW isn't so much how much power they have or how much potential they have; we're seeing examples of WW being competitive .. but more over I think the way the Devs built the underlying mechanics of how WW skills are designed to interact and synergize off one another might not align with how many players may want to play WW or how many players may feel is intuitive for WW. .. and they might be right.

This might explain why some player struggle, even if they're experienced, whilst others are running leaderboards. Because the play style mechanics are so different now.