Radiate77 wrote: »

Are there plans to push this Rework back an update? If so, what does that mean in regards to the other Reworks?

Would they all be pushed back another update?

No, why would you assume the rework is being pushed back because it wasn't mentioned on stream?

We already know there's more to Update 51 than what was shown in this stream — we know Crimson Veldt and High Seas of Tamriel are coming, but they were already talked about in a previous stream.

At the risk of repeating my earlier comment, we're likely going to get one more stream before the PTS which goes into more detail on the Warden refresh. ZOS doesn't talk about everything all in one stream anymore, which allows them to spend more time on individual things.

Please don't panic! We had several streams leading up to Update 50 where Werewolf wasn't mentioned a single time (but Warden was mentioned several times) and we still got the Werewolf refresh right on time as described on the roadmap.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Are there plans to push this Rework back an update? If so, what does that mean in regards to the other Reworks?

Would they all be pushed back another update?

No, why would you assume the rework is being pushed back because it wasn't mentioned on stream?

Mainly because it was heavily implied that the PTS date for U51 was being pushed back by three weeks because of “something people were talking about in chat.”

Erickson9610 wrote: »

We had several streams leading up to Update 50 where Werewolf wasn't mentioned a single time (but Warden was mentioned several times) and we still got the Werewolf refresh right on time as described on the roadmap.

And yet, it wasn’t radio silence either.

Werewolf got the concept art shared for the new form, a dev comment about how a bite attack was needed and they’re putting that in, and a nugget of info here and there. They never showed anything off on stream, but we still had the sense it was in track.

Warden, on the other hand, has had nothing.

The idea is to mix the lines per role - so no dev wants to even show a singular piece of concept art for making a Plants ability that damages? We don’t get a hint at any defensive Animals? All we had was “Warden Class Masteries are more basic since they’re getting the next refresh,” but no indication of how that refresh is going. And now the delay seems to be answering that for us.

One of the things the players hated most with the old guard was the secrets. “We’re doing cool things, just trust us.” And now that’s back.

Is it so hard for them to say “yeah, we hit a minor snag with Warden so we had to delay a bit, but the other refreshes are still on track and here’s a quick teaser image of a new Warden skill to sate you in the meanwhile.”?

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

It would be logical to change the class refresh order looking at how things are going in game concerning class balance.

[…]

So now let’s see if ZOS has listened to their players/customers on forum, right now I am unable to play the game due to the state of the necromancer class compared to others, especially in PvP. And if the class refresh order remains the same, then things will get worst. And I am not the one who left the game for those reasons.

As has been pointed out several times, the order that they chose the refreshes has nothing to do with which class needs it most.

There is no single person who will argue that necromancer is in a terrible state and really really needs this fix. However, necromancer is also the most complicated class in ESO by far.

The order they did the class refreshes is very obviously based on ease. The first class they did (the only class they did…) has no special mechanics whatsoever. They started with DK just because it was supposed to be the proof of concept. The logical next choice would be to go up one step in complexity and take another class that really doesn’t have any special mechanics, but does require them to do a lot more work in mixing the lines to have a skills for each role, aka Warden. The only real mechanic Warden has to deal with is bear. And if they’re already working on pet mechanics, then obviously they should just go for the full pet experience right after that, aka Sorc. After that that allows them to deal with some minor corpse mechanics for Templar, really trying to do some balance between lines for NB, and then finally the one class that is going to essentially need the knowledge of everything before it in order for it to happen well.

That’s why Necro is so late. It needs to build on Warden’s skill line swaps, Sorc’s pet mechanics, Templar’s corpses, and NB’s balancing. Doing Necro before any of them, while it would make necro mains feel loved for a week or so, would mean it ends up in a state with still-broken mechanics, and then by the end of the refreshes Necro ends up still in a terrible state, but then they’re never gonna look at it again.

I do think they should’ve just stuck with the standard classes and maybe just fed the sub-class werewolf in once the others were rolling out, but - as much as they’re saying they’re not going for a year long stuff anymore - this year does have a very werewolf theme (the new TG story has a werewolf thing involved, they’re doing the two werewolf themed solo dungeons, the new trial is Hircine themed…) so that’s why they shoved it in here at this point.

Actually werewolf could be considered a class now considering how it is

As for classes themselves I wouldn't mind if we got a different class instead. Just wish we'd get more transparancy? I guess? What do I know though lol

I should note that I don't mind at all that the warden refresh is being delayed by a few weeks. That is honestly good news in my opinion because I'd rather have something come out when it's ready instead of being rushed out unfinished. I'd just prefer for it to be explicitly said rather than it to be left to speculation.

Word is, they made cliffracers even bigger and slower, and it keeps crashing the game,.

AScarlato wrote: »

Edit: Tried to look at the ESO reddit as sometimes people summarize these but nothing there, and no YouTube video summaries either.

UESP has published a stream summary on our Bluesky. We always try to liveblog the streams but it simply wasn't possible due to the timing of yesterday's - however, this means that it's a considerably more detailed summary than we usually manage.

Thread 1 - Update 51 Player Experience Improvements with Player Experience Team Lead, Kira Ross Schlitt and Senior Systems Designer, Carrie Day. Including Antiquities refresh, Edit HUD Beta (PC-only for now), Hybridization and Alchemy changes - https://bsky.app/profile/uesp.net/post/3moynh6ngg22y

Thread 2 - Update 51 New PvE Content with Jason Barnes and Mike Finnigan, both Associate Design Directors. Including Solo Dungeons (1 player + optional Companion) and Nowhere Vault (1-4 players). Also featuring Fun Facts with Finn about the Night Market and Challenge Difficulty!
https://bsky.app/profile/uesp.net/post/3moywxnnt5c2w

If you're wondering why we choose to use Bluesky over X, it's because it threads properly and does not require a login to view. Since Twitter became X, it has become increasingly less functional for our liveblogging. We still have many daily tweets but they're pre-planned rather than immediate responses.

Destai wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, I know we mentioned this in yesterday's stream, but recognize not everyone is able to watch those. To reiterate what we said in the stream, to give us some extra polishing time, we're moving out the U51 PTS start date to July 27 (previously July 6.) This will have some knock-on effects for when you see that content come to the live game and we'll provide an update on those adjustments as soon as we're able. We do remain committed to getting early feedback on each of the class refresh efforts, and appreciate your patience.

I'm not really clear what you mean here, I'm sorry. What do you mean by knock-on effects? Like there's PTS changes being made that would impact Live?

I think where the main disconnect here is - what's going on with Warden? Are you saying you're giving the class rework extra polishing time for Wardens specifically, or the general contents of U51 need more time. Just looking for a bit more specificity.

Essentially they're saying the delay will have ripple effects to the development of anything that's waiting on U51 to hit PTS to happen. Some stuff may need to be held back as a result. Likely they don't yet know how much of an impact the delay will have, so they're in a wait-and-see holding pattern, and thus can't comment on specifics because they're trying to avoid making promises they can't keep.

So...anyone going to still make the "wait your turn" argument when it comes to balance or...?

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, I know we mentioned this in yesterday's stream, but recognize not everyone is able to watch those. To reiterate what we said in the stream, to give us some extra polishing time, we're moving out the U51 PTS start date to July 27 (previously July 6.) This will have some knock-on effects for when you see that content come to the live game and we'll provide an update on those adjustments as soon as we're able. We do remain committed to getting early feedback on each of the class refresh efforts, and appreciate your patience.

I appreciate the message, but at least for me, my concern isn’t that warden could be delayed. If warden’s refresh could possibly delayed because it needs more time to bake, I think that’s a good thing. Better golden brown than half-baked. The thing that’s weirding me out is everyone avoiding saying the word “Warden”.

…

…

Ok, I’ll agree on that fully-finished is better than half-baked any day of the week. But that last sentence there just knocked me over.

Just to confirm: Warden is… still going to be Warden, right?
Like… I know people who favor the frost mage style and the ranger style. We’re not… losing one of those, right?

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, I know we mentioned this in yesterday's stream, but recognize not everyone is able to watch those. To reiterate what we said in the stream, to give us some extra polishing time, we're moving out the U51 PTS start date to July 27 (previously July 6.) This will have some knock-on effects for when you see that content come to the live game and we'll provide an update on those adjustments as soon as we're able. We do remain committed to getting early feedback on each of the class refresh efforts, and appreciate your patience.

I appreciate the message, but at least for me, my concern isn’t that warden could be delayed. If warden’s refresh could possibly delayed because it needs more time to bake, I think that’s a good thing. Better golden brown than half-baked. The thing that’s weirding me out is everyone avoiding saying the word “Warden”.

…

…

Ok, I’ll agree on that fully-finished is better than half-baked any day of the week. But that last sentence there just knocked me over.

Just to confirm: Warden is… still going to be Warden, right?
Like… I know people who favor the frost mage style and the ranger style. We’re not… losing one of those, right?

I think that whatever happens to the Class that's refreshed next will ultimately be a net positive. Whether that entails a name change, a theme change, mechanics rework, a Class rework order reshuffle, and so on. I'm looking forward to seeing what ZOS does next.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, I know we mentioned this in yesterday's stream, but recognize not everyone is able to watch those. To reiterate what we said in the stream, to give us some extra polishing time, we're moving out the U51 PTS start date to July 27 (previously July 6.) This will have some knock-on effects for when you see that content come to the live game and we'll provide an update on those adjustments as soon as we're able. We do remain committed to getting early feedback on each of the class refresh efforts, and appreciate your patience.

I appreciate the message, but at least for me, my concern isn’t that warden could be delayed. If warden’s refresh could possibly delayed because it needs more time to bake, I think that’s a good thing. Better golden brown than half-baked. The thing that’s weirding me out is everyone avoiding saying the word “Warden”.

…

…

Ok, I’ll agree on that fully-finished is better than half-baked any day of the week. But that last sentence there just knocked me over.

Just to confirm: Warden is… still going to be Warden, right?
Like… I know people who favor the frost mage style and the ranger style. We’re not… losing one of those, right?

Yeah, exactly. Not mentioning Warden directly but alluding to it is creating ripe opportunity for conspiracy. Will Warden get split in half? Is Necromancer next instead? Like… we shouldn’t theorize, there’s nothing good to come of that. But it’s so incredibly weird to avoid saying Warden like this?

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, I know we mentioned this in yesterday's stream, but recognize not everyone is able to watch those. To reiterate what we said in the stream, to give us some extra polishing time, we're moving out the U51 PTS start date to July 27 (previously July 6.) This will have some knock-on effects for when you see that content come to the live game and we'll provide an update on those adjustments as soon as we're able. We do remain committed to getting early feedback on each of the class refresh efforts, and appreciate your patience.

I appreciate the message, but at least for me, my concern isn’t that warden could be delayed. If warden’s refresh could possibly delayed because it needs more time to bake, I think that’s a good thing. Better golden brown than half-baked. The thing that’s weirding me out is everyone avoiding saying the word “Warden”.

…

…

Ok, I’ll agree on that fully-finished is better than half-baked any day of the week. But that last sentence there just knocked me over.

Just to confirm: Warden is… still going to be Warden, right?
Like… I know people who favor the frost mage style and the ranger style. We’re not… losing one of those, right?

I think that whatever happens to the Class that's refreshed next will ultimately be a net positive. Whether that entails a name change, a theme change, mechanics rework, a Class rework order reshuffle, and so on. I'm looking forward to seeing what ZOS does next.

I’m sorry, but there’s a major difference between “we cleaned up the animations” and “yeah, the character you’ve had for 9 years now no longer has the theme you wrote him with, but it’s not like you care about pixels, right?”

There was enough fury from removing poison from DK (when DK didn’t originally even have poison and only got it for a stam alternative until hybridization made it irrelevant). Warden has never not had all three themes.

Yes, it was cobbled. But it was possible for people to make frost-themed or nature-themed characters from that (or to make a Skaal, who is frost and nature themed so Warden fit perfectly). If they change our characters’ entire theme out from under them, that’s not cool at all, especially if they drop the theme that you built your character around.
The only only way a split Warden would work would be with the introduction of Class Changes.

I realize this is a foreign concept to a lot of MMO players, but some of us are very into the character lore part, so coming by and saying that my Skaal barbarian built around his polar bear and icy winds will lose one of those (and I don’t get to pick!) is not cool.

Add, don’t subtract. Add a new frostmage Class (even if it overlaps with Warden) and a new Druid Class (even if it overlaps with Warden). Don’t mandate our existing characters have to change that radically.

Destai wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, I know we mentioned this in yesterday's stream, but recognize not everyone is able to watch those. To reiterate what we said in the stream, to give us some extra polishing time, we're moving out the U51 PTS start date to July 27 (previously July 6.) This will have some knock-on effects for when you see that content come to the live game and we'll provide an update on those adjustments as soon as we're able. We do remain committed to getting early feedback on each of the class refresh efforts, and appreciate your patience.

I appreciate the message, but at least for me, my concern isn’t that warden could be delayed. If warden’s refresh could possibly delayed because it needs more time to bake, I think that’s a good thing. Better golden brown than half-baked. The thing that’s weirding me out is everyone avoiding saying the word “Warden”.

You're spot on @Soarora. It feels like they're avoiding the Warden topic directly. Just a bit odd given the thread is specifically about Warden. Feels a little obtuse.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom can you please give us some comfort or clarity here? The vibes are off, I would hope you're seeing that. Please don't let this turn into a debacle.

I think the cows have already left the barn on that second point, honestly >__>. And if not they sure are making their way for that open door in a hurry.

People in this thread definitely should take off their tin foil hats and realise that correlation does not equal causation.

U51 PTS could be postponed for various reasons. Warden refresh is only one part of U51. Why do you all assume that it's not ready, it needs more time, or something like that? Maybe Crimson Veldt is not ready, maybe HUD Editor is not ready, or maybe it's even some backend code that prepares crossplay. Or maybe the problem lies in internal ZOS processes, or maybe the problem is the console certification process - we don't know. It's wild to assume that the state of the Warden refresh is the problem.

Wheeler and Gilliam were presenting combat refresh in previous streams. They were not announced as speakers this time. They were not present during the stream. Well, imagine my shock when no one spoke about the Warden refresh.

A simple explanation for why the Warden refresh wasn't mentioned: PTS was postponed, so ZOS needs some info to save for the next monthly stream, which is why they decided not to speak about Warden this time. Full stop on all your conspiracy theories. Just be patient, pretty please.