You all have some wild POVs on balance.

ESO has never been equally balanced where every class can be equal at every spec. It never will be. It’s not balanced via a 1v1 or an outnumbered situation, it *tries to be balanced class by class and how they synergize within groups and how they can perform in certain specs.

The argument being made about WW is legitimate. It can currently play as a pressure DD with Tank HP and very large self heals. That’s all 3 main specs combined. The unfortunate part is this was subclassing in a nutshell. Everyone subclassed into this same triune spec monster. That said, the point being brought up about group play in Cyrodiil is 100% valid when it comes to WW, they aren’t great for objective Cyrodiil. A pack of nothing but WWs couldn’t even siege a keep. In an AvAvA setting, they are actually suboptimal cause it’s a selfish ultimate that doesn’t synergize within a group for siege warfare. This is why they likely won’t get nerfed. If an entire alliance was running werewolves, they would lose every single time. Subclassing on the other hand, is 100% optimal for group play. You borrow group buffs from line to line until all basis is covered and then put your button pressing to the test. The theorycrafting behind ballgroups is unprecedented since subclassing came live. The refreshes are suppose to even out this curve, bringing unused skill lines back into competition. In the case of WW, they brought it up to par with Subclassing, same with DK, but WW’s still lack the group utility to be effective as an optimal inclusion to the group.

If a class or subclass is overperforming at every spec (in a group setting) after the refreshes, it 100% does need tuned down. But until all the classes are brought up to subclassing’s power, we’ll continue to see “Strongest Build Ever” videos of people X’ing in Cyrodiil.

@hoangdz - you keep saying you argue with numbers in here but fully denied the evidence I showed demonstrating the across the board damage decrease and healing decrease on Hircine’s fortitude during PTS from prior live where werewolf was PROVEN to vastly underperform in ALL aspects of combat (“Werewolf tooltips (PvP) significantly nerfed from live (proof)”; like your party literally waived it off with an excuse) and even now you refuse to fully admit the discrepancy (which is more than just feeling) between a Signet build and a non-Signet build that results in a 25-40k damage decrease to next best options in PvE alone.

You’re unhappy about ‘infinite sustain’ but somehow still fail to grasp that this is ‘the standard’ and will likely be carried over in concept to Warden. (also, yet another do-not-pin-this-on-me reminder that I personally do not agree with health-based healing but werewolf healing in general NEEDS to be strong if future reworks are ANYTHING like DK in pressure and sustain).

I get that you feel frustrated and you are absolutely more dedicated to having werewolf nerfed than I’ve ever seen anyone try and nerf something before (I mean it’s just post after post and when other sections weren’t working you slapped something in general and have not stopped bumping it… I would know, I’ve been reluctantly paying attention)… but like come on. There are metric-based facts and logic being presented on both sides. You just don’t like to accept them because they don’t result in absolute success on your publicly proclaimed stance that ‘one bar should not compete ergo nuke werewolf’ (whereas I frequently relent and even offer happy ‘middle ground’ suggestions to retain base kit features and handle outliers… which you can see in many of my comments even though I frequently disagree with you on this subject).

Just because rational people don’t appreciate your borderline goofy PvP
duel parses doesn’t mean that I can’t go to my own version of Cyro right now and find more DKs/other specs than werewolves and the werewolves that I do find in Cyro are usually terrible as is (so it’s either more difficult to play than you predicted which is unlikely or only a handful truly have the ‘max damage+ max sustain Signet build on’… which they can address by targeting the outliers and other silly nonsense like 5.2k armor pots which just logically should no longer exist being based off old resolve values at that) or by extension only a handful of builds result in that ‘unkillable max damage werewolf’.

*edit: it would have helped if your party didn’t outright LIE on day 2 of the PTS on the feedback thread saying werewolf was doubling DPS of every spec and yet everything that can utilize Signet or masteries effective has a ceiling of around that same limit but with more burst (you’re untrustworthy, this is disingenuous… we literally have 1 and 6 second dots that clearly did not address YOUR problem because of this). I legitimately don’t think you realize that once many hop off the meta, werewolf should be in an acceptable state this time instead of abysmal garbage like you want and that was the case across the board prior. *Thanks for listening (read it or not, it doesn’t change the validity of what I’m relaying. I have receipts for every jamm thing I relayed here)

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

[snip] Players act like you can't heavy attack in addition to using that skill. If someone here claims that there is no opportunity to heavy attack in a 1vX, duel, or whatever, then that's a skill issue esp. when nearly all of the META builds don't push out continuous damage and are built around burst-defense windows. WW not being the case, which is exactly why we are talking about it and balance in the first place here

Maybe because they are so used to holding block all the time until their ult goes up and trying to get people in a predictable, boring offensive burst window, that they lack the ability to actually utilize one of the game's core resource sustain mechanics. But how that translates to the skill being acceptable when I can heavy attack and use that skill and have nearly half my stam bar back in addition to mag back on my hybrid DK. Buddy you're not convincing me and no one following that line of argumentation is either.

That you don't have to consider heavy attacking on yoru build because of a singualar skill is proof in itself that the skill is OP. Especially when compared to all other options. But of course, these players claim to know so much more and be so skilled that they can't do anything besides toss insults and hold their nose up.

Guess what? You're not convincing anyone else that actually plays the game. Not everyone that plays DK only plays it, and not everyone wants to lean on a crutch.

Even more bizzarre is that they've come to a topic about WW to spread noise and change the topic elsewhere. Go make another thread, and why don't you defend why a singular skill in the game, along with an ult in the same class, enables you to forgo sacrifices that other builds (besides WW) have to make and how it's balanced.

[snip]

What did you do before the crutch was introduced? Play another class? I've got over 7 DKs on PC NA and EU. And just like the templars, they are in PvP. And they are built differently around different broken concepts, some to investigate buggy behavior.

[snip]

We have seen in the last months that there is no reasoning with certain players. Their nonsense goes unchecked these days. They are immune to facts, math or even video proof. They'd rather have the game cater to their individual preferences, rather than allowing everyone to play in a fair environment.
Luckily the WW vs DK topics are already starting to divide them. By the time we reach the NB reworks they will be begging for nerfs.

What’s funny is that the DK players defending HoF were also complaining about how subclassing made their class non-viable, but are completely OK with their own class over performing lol. Talk about a severe case of double standard. I swear if it wasn’t DK that got the first rework, THEY would be here asking for nerfs to those classes lmao. You can’t reason with them. Anyone reading my posts vs theirs will see the mental hoops they’re going thru to justify a broken mechanic.

I play dk when it is good and when it is bad, I am always a dk, the most I ever did was subclass two lines out of it. If dk wasnt overperforming I would just do that and still keep playing a dk like the rest of my dk enthusiast pals. You painting a broad brush, some of us are just tired of the forum goers for years coming here to beg zos to nerf everything when the game is fun.

Otherwise I wouldnt be here saying shattering paths signet shouldnt be nerfed because of pulse ganking. I never made such a build or anything similar to it. And in the past there's always been some ridiculous gank build floating around, the ep guy whose name escapes me on pcna is known for it, he's almost always the only one I ever had to worry about getting ganked by. Im sure it'll come to me later. Evo333 or Echo, something like that.
[edited to remove quote]

So you're acknowledging that DK is overperforming, but you're also telling people to stop giving feedback and demanding nerfs. How convenient of you since DK is the first reworked class. So let me ask you these 2 questions:

1) If all of those broken meta builds haven't been addressed, would you complain about them and ask for them to be fixed?
2) If DK was the last class to be reworked, would you be perfectly fine if people told you to wait for 2 years for your turn?

Yea I would be, to be honest before they rearranged my class skills my subclassed builds were easier to 1vX in, I had some fun doing that with Templar and warden skill lines, but my main love is just playing dk. You probably won’t take me on my word on that though, easy to say in hindsight, but I never needed dk to be especially strong, we’ve been nerfed more than any other class and I still played it only aside from subclassing skill lines

Sorc has been Stier for the majority of this game’s life cycle, I never once came in here to complain about it, go ahead and search for it

And yea dk is over performing, as are top subclassed builds before and after the rework, that’s the point. I never said it wasn’t strong, opposite in fact, stated many times it’s more of a problem than WWs are. What I also said was instead of nerfing things I wanna see their strat of buffing all the classes play out first.

That finally clear? You don’t gotta agree but I’ve been consistent from the start

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

You actually don't even need to complain about Sorc because I have already done that myself while being a Sorc main. It's pretty amusing to see the Sorc community conjure up some crazy justifications to keep their toys.

I understand your point about waiting it out, but you do need to understand that people cannot wait for 3 months at a time for their class to be reworked. For DK and WW mains, it's fun, but I cannot say the same thing for Arc and Templar mains. Waiting for 1-2 years takes serious commitment and during that time you are either getting rekt by 2.0 classes or forced to stick to subclassing (negative points if you never liked it from the start).

As I've said, rolling out the class mastery system first would have been the ideal start, then universal skill line revamp (Weapon skills, Psijic, Fighter's Guild, etc.), and finally 2-3 classes at a time with a longer PTS cycle to thoroughly test the changes. ZOS can absolutely change their time line, but they won't and that is an issue.

Fair enough, I can understand that and said as much before in other discussions

I get that perspective. I agree it could have been rolled out more efficiently and universal skill lines would have been better

Same as they could’ve and should have made sure sublclassing was a balanced feature before they dropped it with some sort of cost, even with dk in a/b tier I was happy with where it was prior to sub classing, and I will be when/if the refreshes in the future put it back there as well

Moving off your topic to continue a prior point (not directly related to poster being tagged in this reply). I also get how it feels terrible that your favorite class is not slated to be reworked in the immediate future. This is NOT grounds to constantly badger the team requesting they upend their vision so that we end up with whatever mix of a half-baked bandaid solution they implement to keep as close to their vision as possible while making adjustments on behalf of the temperamental player base (cannot stress enough… especially PvP) that they haven’t shared the big picture with.

I said this before but the time to have done this was during DK PTS. What DK ended up with (infinite sustain, 4 burst moves, every ability chocked full of utility, etc.) was clearly an intentional design choice that they continued through the werewolf rework. It is incredibly likely warden will have a similar outlook (and if it does then this is all the proof that should be needed for ANYONE). It’s best they continue along with their standardized path now so if adjustments are to be made later… it can be done equivalently across the board instead of on a PvPers whim.

I.E. I support ZOS not having to apply bandaid changes to their plan, one they inevitably will try and see through anyway, just to immediately need a rework for the rework halfway through.

If they’re gonna nerf sustain on dk I at least want my old corrosive 3 percent damage cap back, or, let us gain ult in corrosive again. Don’t need both, just one or the other

Gabriel_H wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

ZOS can absolutely change their time line, but they won't and that is an issue.

They can? Awesome! So you know how much pre-work has already been done? What workflows are already in existence. You know the co-ordination schedule between the combat, animation, lore and coding teams? You know how much resources have already been committed? How much their budget is? Time constraints? Upper management sign off? Excellent. Good to know.

This ^^ is called context.

It’s really not a concern of mine what their issues are as the customer, they can either match demands or people go play another game

I may be in disagreement overall with hoan but I can’t stand the defense team moving in for Zos when any sensible developer should have known the damage dropping subclassing in the game would do with zero cost at all or checks.

They’re doing well imo with the reworks so I’m willing to give them time to finish, even though others aren’t and yea I get why

But I’m not gonna cover for them either on their timeline, especially when they wasted time and effort on vengeance as well as subclassing which are two things pvpers did not ask for

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If they’re gonna nerf sustain on dk I at least want my old corrosive 3 percent damage cap back, or, let us gain ult in corrosive again. Don’t need both, just one or the other

They can do that, I just need DKs to be visibly marked in corrosive (not just more flames).

It used to be easily identifiable by the green glow and stagnant damage numbers but now… in the heat of battle it’s near impossible to tell when one of the MANY DKs has corrosive up.

It’s why I don’t use any of the blue skill styles lol, or green, even though they look awesome

I even saw there’s an addon now to tell people when we pop corrosive ._.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

ZOS can absolutely change their time line, but they won't and that is an issue.

They can? Awesome! So you know how much pre-work has already been done? What workflows are already in existence. You know the co-ordination schedule between the combat, animation, lore and coding teams? You know how much resources have already been committed? How much their budget is? Time constraints? Upper management sign off? Excellent. Good to know.

This ^^ is called context.

It’s really not a concern of mine what their issues are as the customer, they can either match demands or people go play another game

I may be in disagreement overall with hoan but I can’t stand the defense team moving in for Zos when any sensible developer should have known the damage dropping subclassing in the game would do with zero cost at all or checks.

They’re doing well imo with the reworks so I’m willing to give them time to finish, even though others aren’t and yea I get why

But I’m not gonna cover for them either on their timeline, especially when they wasted time and effort on vengeance as well as subclassing which are two things pvpers did not ask for

I know I’m replying to you a lot but ‘I’m here’ and, to me, you’re making fair points. I wanted to say as a long term player I was personally expecting subclassing to come with health/reduction adjustments for at least PvE… or soon after… and they did not. This part still has me reeling my expectations to this day. I feel like the whole subclassing power infusion (I.E vastly trivialized mechs in PvE, etc.) and now rework (pure class) power infusion is the direct result of this oversight.

It’s even more surprising when you realize they had adjusted these values in the past essentially ‘for less’.

Seems the one thing everyone does agree with is that subclassing getting gutted isn’t a problem lol

Only thing I care about is making sure that being pure class is viable, I don’t wanna have to start streaking around or using jabs again etc, can’t stand that

Don’t need to have the strongest class, half the fun of theory crafting is getting around limitations of them. Subclassing at the time made that impossible though off your build alone.

Looking at the class masteries of u50 I’d say that they should strengthen them for the classes that aren’t refreshed for sure. And, if I agreed on any nerf to werewolf it would be to make class masteries not apply to them.

gotta face the facts that there will be balance issues until all the class refreshes are done but i think the the tanky werewolf needs to get some rebalanace they are no enjoyable to fight in pvp becasue they gain rss back to fast

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If they’re gonna nerf sustain on dk I at least want my old corrosive 3 percent damage cap back, or, let us gain ult in corrosive again. Don’t need both, just one or the other

That is actually fine tbh. They can bring the old corrosive back lol

Holy hell we found a compromise lol, bet.

Now we must make zos sign the treaty

As good as hof is, I'd much much prefer having old corrosive back, half the reason i feel like hof is needed is because the lack of ult gen popping corrosive, just doesnt feel as good even if hof with 30k magicka is better. At least to me it doesnt.

hoangdz wrote: »

Nerf WW

Haha! He's back and bumped it again!

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Nerf WW

Haha! He's back and bumped it again!

WW needs a nerf yes!

Usureki wrote: »

DK not even remotely close to water level lol more like out of the pool cheering ww on.

SandandStars wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Unkillable players who can also do a decent amount of damage have been an issue since before WW. First reworked DK was too OP for PvP, now WW is too OP for PvP. When Warden gets its rework it's going to be too OP for PvP, I guarantee it. Not saying things shouldn't be balanced but we see this with every big update that includes really big combat changes.

There's also the fact that we have people who are saying WW is too strong yet at the same time people who are saying it's useless in regards to PvP. Maybe, perhaps, perchance and potentially, something seeming too OP or not has more to do with difference experiences and not just whatever build is the meta? I mean it's been established for ages that you can give two people the exact same build but one of them be capable of doing better DPS/healing/tanking than the other.

Things being changed and balanced for PvP isn't bad inherently. What worries me is when people call for nerfs in PvP and then that thing that people say is too strong also gets nerfed into the ground for PvE so hard it winds up on the other side of the planet. Just like people calling for nerfs to WW because of things like unexpected Mastery Passive interactions or how Shattered Path works with it (and a couple of other things like Overload Sorc) when those aren't problems with WW itself.

Pro Tip: The Warden refresh won't make it OP in terms of damage dealing, like the refresh on DK and WW did. It will give Warden some convoluted, un-fun, yet OP healing synergies that will make it even tougher/impossible to kill. I'm talking PVP, as I don't PVE unless forced to for gear.

It's the zos Warden aesthetic. Until they completely change out Cliff Racers for a class spammable that can occasionally hit someone in PVP, Warden will have to borrow other classes' offensive skills.

Many have complained about shalks, and they do hit hard on the 9-second interval, and give the class a strong pen option. But stop and think about that: the class has 1 decent offensive skill, that hits every 9 seconds, which takes a bit of skill/luck to line up properly when combatting a good player.

Anyhoo. In my ideal Warden refresh, Cliff Racers are either completely reworked or an alternate class spammable is introduced. Those things flap across the screen like something that fell out of a garbage truck.

I think you meant templar. Like they will remove our spell damage buff and make us tankier with more armor. Oh wait we don't have to wait for the rework.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Reminder that WW is overperforming!

Reminder that DK and most likely warden is ‘overperforming’! Also yet another shameless bump!

I hope to see you, @React, and @Pelican doing this when Warden is out. Like ALL of the effort please and thank you!

Pretty sure I did the same thing when DK patch first rolled out. You can rest assured knowing that Warden, Sorc (my main), and the remaining classes will get the same treatment if they overperform.

hoangdz wrote: »

Reminder that WW is overperforming!

Booooo. Hiss. Boo this man