Luneca wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

olda90 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This person here (he knows who he is and was NOT emp) did more or less the same to a high health wolf here:

Hey, thats me! Here's the context for this image. I was;

5 medium, dark elf, triple infused weapon damage, shadow mundus, 3x offensive blue CP, nirnhoned battleaxe, continuous attack active. Orders wrath, rallying, mono. 33k hp.

Igneous says 19k because the recap is showing many instances of damage in one recap item, it hits for 1k ish.

An extremely high damage setup which itself can die fairly easily.

That recap is showing this individual did not block, dodge, or outspace any part of the extremely telegraphed combo across 3 GCDs.

Quite a bit different compared to the 45-50k HP WW doing more damage than you can heal primarily through dots, light attacks, and status effects with zero counterplay, whilst being entirely unkillable.

Hey- that's you! Except you saying 3 GCD is deceptive when you mean in reality you mean all the damage landing in 1-2 GCDs.

Quick context for your context.

Onslaught- 1 GCD

Incinerate- already casted way before

Heart of flame (woah, is this a bi-sustain move and a burst move in one???)- casted up to 4 seconds prior

Igneous (someone remind me... is this a 60 second damage ability?)- casted WAY before

Molten whip- 1 GCD, of course casted IMMEDIATELY after onslaught as onslaught is channeled and leads into the next GCD

Like a 17k whip is remotely miraculous.

///

Your build (if accurate):

-shadow (healing, your buddy literally complained about this)
-3 offensive blue CP (this isn't uncommon and becomes fully moot in BGs where whips still hit HARD)
-orders wrath (healing)
-rallying cry (crit resist and many other very important stats)
-major protection and minor vitality.

These completely exclude any skills just simply how you've built.

This is provably not unique (as in high whip damage with everything landing in 1-2 GCDs) as I have collected a few videos already (I suppose not that 'True' guy) where my health bar is noticeably dropping simply because a DK exists around me.

no point discussing with people using cheats and nowadays there are quite many. I encountered the dk few times in cyro and most likely using armory station glitch since there is no way he can sustain for so long a certain amount of incoming dmg by using rally+wrath with that offensive setup and the guy can stand in the open in a 10vs1 without using much los and tank all the inc dmg and then land you that macro combo for the kill. The other day we killed him 2vs1 after a very long fight and it was quite clear to me what he doing when in cyro.

DKs are meta strong but when it comes to certain players is not anymore about DK or WW or the theorycrafting but about what they using for make it be an extreme unfair fight in an undetectable "smart" way. I've even saw in IC a WW using ulfrid scribing skill...

I do also think though that WW with meta setup is way too braindead strong.

There's a point where gear doesn't matter and power can be derived from positioning, distance, and specific actions at the right place and right time. Not many people can do it and it's part of the "skill" section of the game. If you see someone moving exactly out of the range of your skills and attacking back, you know that you aren't dealing with the run of the mill player and you better get ready.

The game isn't balanced in the slightest, and DK right now is one class where it's easy to do that because they have a skill that gives resources back. And it's why it's also complained about on these forums btw. Go check the PTS section or PvP section and you will find people complaining about DK as well as WW.

That removal of needing to build for sustain allows flexibility that enemies won't have, where you can build and spec into a "specialization" that benefits your playstyle that you otherwise would not. And that is exactly what people are talking about here and with DK, and why it is not balanced.

For some people, that specialization won't matter but for others it can make them into a god tier player. Because roll is extremely powerful (designed to not be sustained), block is powerful, and then we have things like riposte that are REALLY powerful and enable dumb things like 35K leaps out of stealth.

^ ZOS is the one that made such builds possible. I refrain from using boring builds like the one I just said. But not everyone will and if they have the skill to use it, then it will be oppressive to the point that most people can't fight back.

And that is what we are talking about WW here when we say OP, and why people are talking about DK elsewhere. It's the fact that in the right hands with the right conditions most people cannot ever hope to win. And the problem with WW is that it's so simplified and the skills so compressed that it's far easier than any other spec in the game to create those conditions.

It's good that you also agree WW is busted because it's literally the same thing as DK with a different coat of paint. The crazy part is that the endpoint of DK and WW power is not even what you've seen or what they've done. That's the worst part about it; as time goes on people will realize and find the even stronger build combinations that exist soon enough.

You must not play dk on any meaningful level because as I’ve already said to another mistaken poster on this thread hof is not carrying your sustain. Any dk that’s fought outnumbered on a regular basis knows that. When you are getting real pressure where you have to actively block cast, roll dodge onslaughts, pop elder dragon followed up by vigor, recast your buffs and counter attack with damage of your own you soon realize how nice it would be to have something like wretched or roksa on unless your running recovery food but then your stats take a hit so something has to give because hof is not going to cut it on its own against good players. Not happening. Good dk’s know this. So please stop regurgitating misinformation.

How do you know? I've used DK even when it had that "1 year" where it was the most mediocre class in the game. You know, the year when the searing claw and other DoTs weren't allowed to stack and DK skills became useless on the bar in PvP and PvE?

But of course you can't find an actual refutation so you go "ah well you're not experienced". Here's a newsflash: not everyone plays the game the same way.

I never once needed nor have ever slotted Wretched Vitality. In fact, if you ask me, it's a waste. If I want resources back, esp. on the current DK, I'm not slotting Wretched.

I also dont' hold block on DK nor need to block cast and prefer roll every time vs. block. Wow, look how crazy that is. I'm completely different than you are at how we use the same class.

But let me guess, "good DKs" like you and whoever you cite, know better than I do about how to tailor a build to my tendencies and habits and overcome the limitations in the game?

Please do enlighten me with more knowledge. I'm always ready to learn. But I'm still just going to fire siege anyway.

Luneca wrote: »

But I'm still just going to fire siege anyway.

Luneca wrote: »

olda90 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

olda90 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This person here (he knows who he is and was NOT emp) did more or less the same to a high health wolf here:

Hey, thats me! Here's the context for this image. I was;

5 medium, dark elf, triple infused weapon damage, shadow mundus, 3x offensive blue CP, nirnhoned battleaxe, continuous attack active. Orders wrath, rallying, mono. 33k hp.

Igneous says 19k because the recap is showing many instances of damage in one recap item, it hits for 1k ish.

An extremely high damage setup which itself can die fairly easily.

That recap is showing this individual did not block, dodge, or outspace any part of the extremely telegraphed combo across 3 GCDs.

Quite a bit different compared to the 45-50k HP WW doing more damage than you can heal primarily through dots, light attacks, and status effects with zero counterplay, whilst being entirely unkillable.

Hey- that's you! Except you saying 3 GCD is deceptive when you mean in reality you mean all the damage landing in 1-2 GCDs.

Quick context for your context.

Onslaught- 1 GCD

Incinerate- already casted way before

Heart of flame (woah, is this a bi-sustain move and a burst move in one???)- casted up to 4 seconds prior

Igneous (someone remind me... is this a 60 second damage ability?)- casted WAY before

Molten whip- 1 GCD, of course casted IMMEDIATELY after onslaught as onslaught is channeled and leads into the next GCD

Like a 17k whip is remotely miraculous.

///

Your build (if accurate):

-shadow (healing, your buddy literally complained about this)
-3 offensive blue CP (this isn't uncommon and becomes fully moot in BGs where whips still hit HARD)
-orders wrath (healing)
-rallying cry (crit resist and many other very important stats)
-major protection and minor vitality.

These completely exclude any skills just simply how you've built.

This is provably not unique (as in high whip damage with everything landing in 1-2 GCDs) as I have collected a few videos already (I suppose not that 'True' guy) where my health bar is noticeably dropping simply because a DK exists around me.

no point discussing with people using cheats and nowadays there are quite many. I encountered the dk few times in cyro and most likely using armory station glitch since there is no way he can sustain for so long a certain amount of incoming dmg by using rally+wrath with that offensive setup and the guy can stand in the open in a 10vs1 without using much los and tank all the inc dmg and then land you that macro combo for the kill. The other day we killed him 2vs1 after a very long fight and it was quite clear to me what he doing when in cyro.

DKs are meta strong but when it comes to certain players is not anymore about DK or WW or the theorycrafting but about what they using for make it be an extreme unfair fight in an undetectable "smart" way. I've even saw in IC a WW using ulfrid scribing skill...

I do also think though that WW with meta setup is way too braindead strong.

There's a point where gear doesn't matter and power can be derived from positioning, distance, and specific actions at the right place and right time. Not many people can do it and it's part of the "skill" section of the game. If you see someone moving exactly out of the range of your skills and attacking back, you know that you aren't dealing with the run of the mill player and you better get ready.

The game isn't balanced in the slightest, and DK right now is one class where it's easy to do that because they have a skill that gives resources back. And it's why it's also complained about on these forums btw. Go check the PTS section or PvP section and you will find people complaining about DK as well as WW.

That removal of needing to build for sustain allows flexibility that enemies won't have, where you can build and spec into a "specialization" that benefits your playstyle that you otherwise would not. And that is exactly what people are talking about here and with DK, and why it is not balanced.

For some people, that specialization won't matter but for others it can make them into a god tier player. Because roll is extremely powerful (designed to not be sustained), block is powerful, and then we have things like riposte that are REALLY powerful and enable dumb things like 35K leaps out of stealth.

^ ZOS is the one that made such builds possible. I refrain from using boring builds like the one I just said. But not everyone will and if they have the skill to use it, then it will be oppressive to the point that most people can't fight back.

And that is what we are talking about WW here when we say OP, and why people are talking about DK elsewhere. It's the fact that in the right hands with the right conditions most people cannot ever hope to win. And the problem with WW is that it's so simplified and the skills so compressed that it's far easier than any other spec in the game to create those conditions.

It's good that you also agree WW is busted because it's literally the same thing as DK with a different coat of paint. The crazy part is that the endpoint of DK and WW power is not even what you've seen or what they've done. That's the worst part about it; as time goes on people will realize and find the even stronger build combinations that exist soon enough.

i wont stay into this discussion becouse for me its pointless to talk in forums where everyone can express their theories and ideas but then you mostly don't know what they actually are capable to do in the game (and if they are legit or not). In the same way i wont even stay here crunching numbers, theorycraft or "player skills" since it makes no sense when on the other side there is someone cheating even it has the strongest minmax meta setup or is a "skilled player" becouse at some point its none of that BS.

I play DK myself killed many of these "op dk" but at certain point when it comes to some ppl its nothing that has to due with balance, builds or player skills. And still many ppl that dont play DK think Heart of Flame is a skill that gives that infinite sustain but this is not true when it comes to a 1vsX without using los or mobility, and ppl that actually never play 1vsX that are the majority dont know how short window time you actually have for get a kill when there are even +2-3 players (that aint complete trash or 0 dmg) chasing you.

But as i said its pointless to discuss this in a forum.

ZOS knows all of this and WW imo was designed for give to the average/newbie/solo/pve player a simple build they could play on 1 bar and be effective in pvp.

The bold conclusion canont be true because if ZOS wanted to make it easier for power to be distributed among players, why wouldn't they just...you know... buff siege instead?

Buffing siege would actually solve a lot of problems in the game, even population issues and discrepencies + ball groups.

If ZOS wanted to level the playing field why wouldn't they have gone the route of buffing current siege and introducing newer siege like ones that do HP% damage to counter hp stacking balls, siege that offers negate, siege that cancels invisibility in an area, etc. ?

I highly doubt if the goal was to address a balance issue in the game and provide people from PvE or new to the game options to fight back against "pros" that they would choose an ultimate, and a skill line that not everyone can run or would run, that could be progressively stronger in the hands of the very same "pros" you imply it was meant to address.

Fact is, the design of the WW changes seemed to have just been pushed through without any real thought of the game and an overall systemic approach at balancing in the slightest. There's no real indication that it was meant to balance anything, not when it takes 6x coldfire siege to take a META WW out, and more than one of these same builds are playing in the same battlespace.

Know what that means? It means ZOS essentially made WW a "I win" button as long as you stack enough of them, and there isn't any counter. ZOS even reduced the number of diesease and poison sources recently, and meatbag damage against a werewolf is a joke -- just use coldfire.

Absolutely disagree with the idea that it was introduced to alleviate anything in PvP, esp. when WW just became an issue in and of itself.

albertberku wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

It’s necessary

At the end of all the class refreshes, if they will just increase the burst damages for all classes, and remove sustain considerations from all of them, and players settle down at 40k hp 10k HoT pure class builds as a result, what will exactly the difference be after 4 - 5 years of extensive combat updates? In the meanwhile keeping PvP completely unbalanced during the whole process, as well. Still pure classes, just 10k higher hp and couple k's higher HoT than the meta before subclass introduced since everyone will have higher damage in total. What a waste of ressources actually.

It is necessary, because subclassing exist. But pure class updates due to subclass being in the game will make subclassing once again obsolete. So, what was the point exactly?

Luneca wrote: »

[snip] Players act like you can't heavy attack in addition to using that skill. If someone here claims that there is no opportunity to heavy attack in a 1vX, duel, or whatever, then that's a skill issue esp. when nearly all of the META builds don't push out continuous damage and are built around burst-defense windows. WW not being the case, which is exactly why we are talking about it and balance in the first place here

Maybe because they are so used to holding block all the time until their ult goes up and trying to get people in a predictable, boring offensive burst window, that they lack the ability to actually utilize one of the game's core resource sustain mechanics. But how that translates to the skill being acceptable when I can heavy attack and use that skill and have nearly half my stam bar back in addition to mag back on my hybrid DK. Buddy you're not convincing me and no one following that line of argumentation is either.

That you don't have to consider heavy attacking on yoru build because of a singualar skill is proof in itself that the skill is OP. Especially when compared to all other options. But of course, these players claim to know so much more and be so skilled that they can't do anything besides toss insults and hold their nose up.

Guess what? You're not convincing anyone else that actually plays the game. Not everyone that plays DK only plays it, and not everyone wants to lean on a crutch.

Even more bizzarre is that they've come to a topic about WW to spread noise and change the topic elsewhere. Go make another thread, and why don't you defend why a singular skill in the game, along with an ult in the same class, enables you to forgo sacrifices that other builds (besides WW) have to make and how it's balanced.

[snip]

What did you do before the crutch was introduced? Play another class? I've got over 7 DKs on PC NA and EU. And just like the templars, they are in PvP. And they are built differently around different broken concepts, some to investigate buggy behavior.

[snip]

Chase0351 wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

I’m simply asking you to back up your claims. If it’s so broken then let’s see it carry you. Make a clip. No one is asking you to fight with no gear on. Prove what you are saying to be true or stop regurgitating other people’s baseless claims.

You did not just ask me to back up my claims lol. I can easily do that with 1vX clips in a normal build or by linking other 1vX clips. But that is not what you wanted from me. You literally said this:



Do you understand how insanely absurd that request is? You are effectively saying that the only scenario where HoF can truly be considered overpowered is when you can drop everything else and still survive. That is no different than this person's request on WW:



"WW is only truly imbalanced when a bad player can survive and win fights"
"HoF is only truly imbalanced when a player can survive win fights without needing any additional heals"

Both statements are equally illogical. Like, nobody needs to go to that extreme to just to prove that a skill is beyond busted. If I apply this logic to other aspects of the game, 99% of broken mechanics would've never deserved their nerfs because they weren't capable of being imbalanced on their own. Double infused glyphs meta wouldn't have been broken because you couldn't secure kills only with them. Sloads Semblance could still be healed through hence wasn't busted. Pre-nerfed Rush of Agony couldn't kill people who block and therefore wasn't overperforming. Do you see the point?

So yes, I can post my own 1vX clips on DK using NORMAL abilities and builds or link others' clips (such as @React and @Pelican) to prove that HoF is busted, but I won't go with your request because it is simply too biased.

Yeah except you can put meta ww in the hands of a bad player and they will X. But the best player isn’t using hof to completely carry their heals and sustain. It’s a supplemental skill. And to address a previous point you made earlier, the aoe damage from hof by itself is laughable. Even the higher damage morph soul of flame is weak by itself. That’s why it needs to be timed burst combined with other skills to do any meaningful damage. So good luck using hof to heal you, sustain you and do your dps against any decent player. It’s not happening therefore it’s not broken. WW literally turns zeroes into heroes which is why they are literally all over PvP and in much greater numbers than dk’s were last patch. I was in IC last night with a literal Zerg of WW’s and their pet pack animals. We crushed it and ran the ring. The other alliances got rolled and it wasn’t even close. And they were all zerging in large numbers but our smaller Zerg of WW’s destroyed them and their tanks and heals got absolutely wrecked. I was actually taken back in amazement because a group of 5-10 WW’s plus their wolf pack pets is unstoppable right now. DK’s aren’t doing that.

But yeah, heart of flame… riiight. 🙄


One more thing. The only way you’re Xing against good players right now is WW. You might X against bad players on other classes but you and I know you can’t do that on the other classes against good players because the other classes are somewhat balanced. WW has no shortcomings they have tankiness with excellent sustain and damage output. And when I say Xing I’m not talking about that nonsense on yt where mediocre players get chased around towers and pick off the pve players, I’m talking about standing in the middle of a field and fighting toe to toe with an entire Zerg surrounding you. I’ve watched my WW guildies do this. No other class can take that pressure right now against a Zerg of good PvP players.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

So DK and WW are overpowered monsters, almost as if the class and morph has had some sort of ... what's the word ... refresh?! Weird.

It's going to be like this for the next 18 months until all the class refreshes are done. Then comes the next problem, there will still be imbalances, because balancing for 1 v 1 is not possible because it throws out the balance at X v X - which is where the game is designed around.

The only long term solution to the 1 v 1 balance problem is to remove group wide effects, because of how they scale into X v X. That's not to say there aren't outlier problems than can be easily solved, but the only real solution to balance issues long term is a cut down ruleset or heavily caveated skills.

Judgement's Brand springs to mind for the latter, wherein the damage is differentiated between PvE and PvP, but at present even that implementation is massively broken. For the former, well that already exists and a large chunk of the PvP community has rejected it outright. /shrug

Vaqual wrote: »

By the time we reach the NB reworks they will be begging for nerfs.

hoangdz wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

[snip] Players act like you can't heavy attack in addition to using that skill. If someone here claims that there is no opportunity to heavy attack in a 1vX, duel, or whatever, then that's a skill issue esp. when nearly all of the META builds don't push out continuous damage and are built around burst-defense windows. WW not being the case, which is exactly why we are talking about it and balance in the first place here

Maybe because they are so used to holding block all the time until their ult goes up and trying to get people in a predictable, boring offensive burst window, that they lack the ability to actually utilize one of the game's core resource sustain mechanics. But how that translates to the skill being acceptable when I can heavy attack and use that skill and have nearly half my stam bar back in addition to mag back on my hybrid DK. Buddy you're not convincing me and no one following that line of argumentation is either.

That you don't have to consider heavy attacking on yoru build because of a singualar skill is proof in itself that the skill is OP. Especially when compared to all other options. But of course, these players claim to know so much more and be so skilled that they can't do anything besides toss insults and hold their nose up.

Guess what? You're not convincing anyone else that actually plays the game. Not everyone that plays DK only plays it, and not everyone wants to lean on a crutch.

Even more bizzarre is that they've come to a topic about WW to spread noise and change the topic elsewhere. Go make another thread, and why don't you defend why a singular skill in the game, along with an ult in the same class, enables you to forgo sacrifices that other builds (besides WW) have to make and how it's balanced.

[snip]

What did you do before the crutch was introduced? Play another class? I've got over 7 DKs on PC NA and EU. And just like the templars, they are in PvP. And they are built differently around different broken concepts, some to investigate buggy behavior.

[snip]

We have seen in the last months that there is no reasoning with certain players. Their nonsense goes unchecked these days. They are immune to facts, math or even video proof. They'd rather have the game cater to their individual preferences, rather than allowing everyone to play in a fair environment.
Luckily the WW vs DK topics are already starting to divide them. By the time we reach the NB reworks they will be begging for nerfs.

What’s funny is that the DK players defending HoF were also complaining about how subclassing made their class non-viable, but are completely OK with their own class over performing lol. Talk about a severe case of double standard. I swear if it wasn’t DK that got the first rework, THEY would be here asking for nerfs to those classes lmao. You can’t reason with them. Anyone reading my posts vs theirs will see the mental hoops they’re going thru to justify a broken mechanic.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

This is why I dont gotta prove jack to you @hoangdz , you had plenty of people in this thread stating the same thing early on already. You and a few of your friends stating otherwise because theyre better than most at 1v1 or 1vX is irrelevant. If that hurts your ego Im sorry, but you dont affect the game as much as you like to believe. And neither do werewolves.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

So DK and WW are overpowered monsters, almost as if the class and morph has had some sort of ... what's the word ... refresh?! Weird.

It's going to be like this for the next 18 months until all the class refreshes are done. Then comes the next problem, there will still be imbalances, because balancing for 1 v 1 is not possible because it throws out the balance at X v X - which is where the game is designed around.

The only long term solution to the 1 v 1 balance problem is to remove group wide effects, because of how they scale into X v X. That's not to say there aren't outlier problems than can be easily solved, but the only real solution to balance issues long term is a cut down ruleset or heavily caveated skills.

Judgement's Brand springs to mind for the latter, wherein the damage is differentiated between PvE and PvP, but at present even that implementation is massively broken. For the former, well that already exists and a large chunk of the PvP community has rejected it outright. /shrug

There is no balance at X v X. It has been 10 years and cross healing is still unresolved.

You have 2 groups of equal skill, all have the same sets. Each group consists of 2 DKs, 2 Sorcs, 2 Arcanists, 2 Wardens, 1 NB WW, 1 Templar, 1 Necro Vamp and a non WW NB.

Who wins?

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

By the time we reach the NB reworks they will be begging for nerfs.

You say this but I have been stating clearly and concisely I am against all nerfs until the refreshes are done, the main and important changes are being made in the pts cycle that zos agrees with. I for one cant wait for the nb refresh, it will add a lot more squishy players to run through in cyrodiil lol and bgs, already have some thanks to youtubers posting clickbait pulse gank builds

hoangdz wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

By the time we reach the NB reworks they will be begging for nerfs.

You say this but I have been stating clearly and concisely I am against all nerfs until the refreshes are done, the main and important changes are being made in the pts cycle that zos agrees with. I for one cant wait for the nb refresh, it will add a lot more squishy players to run through in cyrodiil lol and bgs, already have some thanks to youtubers posting clickbait pulse gank builds

Wow. The poster must be wider off the mark than I thought if Bardok and I agree on something.

Lol. You and Bardok agreeing doesn't mean I'm wrong lol. There are just as many people agreeing with me, if not more, if you want to go down that path. Like, check the # of likes in my original post about WW for reference:



Also, his point about being against all nerfs is disingenuous. Of course he is against all nerfs. It's easy to take that stance when his main class, DK, was the first to be reworked I would be more surprised if he could still say the same thing if his class was the LAST in line lol.

hoangdz wrote: »

ZOS can absolutely change their time line, but they won't and that is an issue.