What a joke of a balance update patch

Chase0351 · June 17

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

We’re not talking about playing the OBJ and holding the ball. This thread is clearly pointing out the raw lethality, sustainability and survivability of WW builds and the lack of a counter to them outside of zerging them down and even then that sometimes doesn’t work. And it’s not even about skill (meta rarely is), you can give a meta ww build to mediocre players and they will do very well due to the sheer survivability and sustained damage output of ww, especially when built properly.

On the other hand, Dk’s are pretty easy to counter. If they’re very tanky like your average ww then the dk isn’t killing anything 1v1 against decently geared/skilled players and if they’re high dps then they can also be killed by other dps/brawler type builds. And the same holds true for sorcs who have to be very aware of their positioning.

WW doesn’t require the same awareness because like any other one bar build it doesn’t require nearly the same amount of mental effort to play at a high level. Some of the people I regularly play with even say they are bored with WW because of how easy and mindless it is. Basically you spam light and heavy attacks and mash 4-5 buttons and the class carries you. No thought of positioning required. You cannot achieve the same results on any other class and I’ll gladly take u49 dk meta over u50 ww meta because dk’s can easily be countered.

Chase0351 · June 17

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

Don’t tell @React or @hoangdz - it doesn’t fit the ‘werewolf OP at all costs’ narrative they try to push on every thread. It doesn’t die, I’ll give them that. Outside of the signet meta build- I’m not just killing every single person (or even close, regardless of build lol) I run across in Cyro- guess I’ll just 1 v 1 forever and or focus on people sub-35k health as if either are realistic scenarios in any serious PvP content.

Mind you they simply don’t stop posting. Like ZOS, etc.- please recognize the agenda even if the thread picks up- thanks!

I realize that you’re probably a WW main but c’mon… If we can’t all agree that WW is busted whether you favor it or not, I don’t see how eso PvP can ever be truly balanced. It’s a meme class like vampire that should not be performing at the level it’s currently at. Furthermore, no one bar build should ever be remotely competitive whatsoever. This game was founded on having multiple bars, managing buffs, debuffs, heals and damage output. All of that used to culminate the skill component of the game. WW does all of that with a few buttons, no bar swapping and not much thought in regards to positioning, active defense or resource management.

Chase0351 · June 17

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

There is more balance and variety

Balance in PvP would mean that there would not be such a thing as a “meta” and any build, class or combination there of would be viable in the right hands. In eso this has never really been the case and for the life of me I cannot understand why there has to be a “meta” instead of allowing everything to be equally competitive which would then allow PvP to boil down to actual skill instead of being carried by gear or classes.

Maybe @Zos can answer this question: Why does there always have to be something over tuned every single update patch instead creating true balance which would actually allow people to play how they want to? I’m sure there are plenty of people playing WW and dk that would rather be able to remain competitive on something else.

Chase0351 · June 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Not a werewolf main, but do have a werewolf build on dk (not meta like sorc is), I use it for fun, love werewolf but love my dk more.

DK is still stronger than werewolf in pvp content, namely cyrodiil and bgs. You see more of them because its the new shiny, but overall DK groups are much stronger than werewolf ones. I was fighting the godzilla youtuber and his buddy, both werewolves, and they couldnt take me down as a dk. I saw them today in bgs again and they were on their dks. Probably for the same reason I was, the dk aoe damage and dots is much more useful when dealing with groups. Werewolves are great for 1v1 and xv1 though, as are dks lol. DK though is better for gvg by a mile, and 1vX.

Really I think what werewolf does is make mediocre players instantly much better, which tbh I dont really think is a problem- pure class normal builds will still be stronger once remade. I'm sure the next thread op makes saying something is broken will be warden.

Shattered paths signet was asked to be nerfed for pulse ganking and before that people, especially op, wanted heart of flame nerfed. Now its werewolf. We have a lot of op stuff people have access to, and that people should use. Yes I know werewolves are also using shattered paths signet, but hey, people are suddenly complaining about getting pulse ganked much less huh.

Wait n see before asking for things to be nerfed, Im tired of them nerfing things because people here on these forums overreact, meanwhile people are having fun in the actual game. Try it sometime.

And I hope you keep that same energy when sorc finally gets its rework lol im sure itll be godly.

Meta dk vs meta ww all things being equal the ww wins every single time. Godzilla isn’t really a good example to use because like most streamers he gets his clips and the bulk of his content playing against low level players. None of his bg clips are in high mmr sweat lobbies plus he also just came back to eso recently after multi year layoff so his knowledge of the current state of eso is not the best and he’s really an average skilled player.

WW doesn’t need aoe damage. They can face tank groups while taking out the softer targets one by one. So if you’re the tanky dk that’s left at the end and somehow he couldn’t kill you then you couldn’t kill him either because you’d have to be pretty tanky to survive a well built WW which doesn’t leave much for offensive pressure.

To your point about WW making mediocre players much better, this is just inflating the player skill base artificially instead of actually making the player skill base better as a whole. Why learn the art of blocking when you can just face tank damage from a four man group, heal through it while refilling your resources and dish out sustained damage with the same few skills?

Wuuffyy · June 17

Jamm @Chase0351 - 4 responses in a row just to make sure this dying thread doesn’t fall off of the main page. I was hit with a 9k DK burst delay into a 28k whip with 28k resists. Oh, and they had 41k health and infinite sustain (I imagine) from core of flame also.

DK is plenty fine against wolf

especially the average wolf I imagine (not that building resistance even matters against it)

s3dulo · June 17

If you optimized your WW build, this is accurate. I have smoked plenty of WWs on my DK but I ran into a WW meta build yesterday and It was dizzying. My CMX read about 5500 DPS from the WW. And I was running 33k resist and spent most of the fight on my backbar with major/minor protection. We fought for around two minutes. I managed 3500 DPS being almost entirely defensive and hammering my HoTs but my damage did almost nothing to put the WW on the defensive. As soon as I took some small risks to try to burst, my pitiful 34k HP didn't last long.

If you know anything about dueling, 5500 DPS is crazy high damage output. Especially if the build is also running 45k HP and 100% major protection uptime. That's really unheard of. Your average player has zero chance. Your average 5 players have zero chance.

I think DK ended up in a good place but WW has been overtuned. Nothing wrong with going bold but it needs to be walked back.

Wuuffyy · June 17

s3dulo wrote: »

If you optimized your WW build, this is accurate. I have smoked plenty of WWs on my DK but I ran into a WW meta build yesterday and It was dizzying. My CMX read about 5500 DPS from the WW. And I was running 33k resist and spent most of the fight on my backbar with major/minor protection. We fought for around two minutes. I managed 3500 DPS being almost entirely defensive and hammering my HoTs but my damage did almost nothing to put the WW on the defensive. As soon as I took some small risks to try to burst, my pitiful 34k HP didn't last long.

If you know anything about dueling, 5500 DPS is crazy high damage output. Especially if the build is also running 45k HP and 100% major protection uptime. That's really unheard of. Your average player has zero chance. Your average 5 players have zero chance.

I think DK ended up in a good place but WW has been overtuned. Nothing wrong with going bold but it needs to be walked back.

I was hit by a 28k whip (you can see above I also have clips, etc.) and nearly insta-killed by a 41k health DK (with core of flame I imagine too). I don’t know if you knew this but between corrosive, vigor, and healing soul+ ability to roll dodge ‘5500’ with no burst is not the same as 4k with the ability to pop your ulti and hit for 40k in a second. Which is exactly how I said this would go in practice.

Fantastic for 1v1s though… assuming it doesn’t just end in a stalemate.

Yeah, either neither is balanced or both are balanced around being on a ‘reworked’ level. Most certainly not ‘wolf OP’ and ‘DK is fine’.

Twohothardware · June 17

Sorc with the new Mythic proc'ing constant status effects is more OP than WW. In Battlegrounds you get deleted by it even on a high health WW.

Chase0351 · June 17

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Jamm @Chase0351 - 4 responses in a row just to make sure this dying thread doesn’t fall off of the main page. I was hit with a 9k DK burst delay into a 28k whip with 28k resists. Oh, and they had 41k health and infinite sustain (I imagine) from core of flame also.

DK is plenty fine against wolf especially the average wolf I imagine (not that building resistance even matters against it)

Don’t take this the wrong way but 28k resistance is very low in current meta. Once you are debuffed with major and minor breach you’re down to roughly 19k and if you are fighting more than one player you may have more resistance debuffs on you lowering your already squishy resistance down even further. So at 28k resistance you are obviously not the kind of WW player/build that this thread is referring to. The meta ww builds are high resistance plus armor pots and high health which is why they can 1vX large Zergs and do very well. I’m talking 40k+ resistance easily and 40k+ health with infinite sustain and really good damage pressure plus you can’t outrun them either. These are the balance breaking builds that need to be addressed, not the casual builds. The casual builds are not even a factor.

Oh, and I made four separate posts because I wanted to address each of those four points individually instead of all in one long text block post.

AScarlato · June 17

In response to some of the above, I'm not here to pretend to be a PVP expert. I'm just here to share my experiences which isn't in alignment with the original premise that WW are dominating anything.

I was then told that you see less of them because they are single-bar builds, and honestly I still see less of them still spamming the BG event than I do Sorcs and DKs which outnumber WWs by far. I am then told a lot of them are bad, and it's just the highest tier of player who is the problem.

Well, I never run into those so for my experience I'm not seeing the "Domination" here. lol.

Most people I have seen this event are DKs and Sorcs, with WW in third. Lots of those have been "bad" and easy to kill/fall out of firm, my own WW included so I guess I'd have to remove Shatterd SIgnet which I was using due to the mistaken belief that merely equipping it would make me legendary which it has not.

*shrug*

hoangdz · June 17

Twohothardware wrote: »

Sorc with the new Mythic proc'ing constant status effects is more OP than WW. In Battlegrounds you get deleted by it even on a high health WW.

WW is also running the same thing. From my testing WW actually nukes that Sorc spec way faster.

Twohothardware · June 17

hoangdz wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Sorc with the new Mythic proc'ing constant status effects is more OP than WW. In Battlegrounds you get deleted by it even on a high health WW.

WW is also running the same thing. From my testing WW actually nukes that Sorc spec way faster.

WW is melee range and Sorc is ranged with ele sus that costs nothing to cast. In Battlegrounds where you don't have damage resistance from CP Sorc is more op.

Chase0351 · June 17

AScarlato wrote: »

I am then told a lot of them are bad, and it's just the highest tier of player who is the problem.

It’s not ‘high tier’ players. It’s the class. Most strong WW’s running around are mediocre players playing the current WW meta. The fact that some of the WW population is unaware of the meta for their current chosen class is irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that WW needs to be tuned down quite a bit. You can do high damage but you can’t be tanky. You can be tanky but you don’t get high damage output. And typically pressure/attrition (high sustain) builds have some tankiness to them but take a while to wear their opponents down usually by outlasting their resources. You can choose one archetype but for the sake of balance you cannot and should not have 2 or more of any of the three. This has been the way.

hoangdz · June 17

Twohothardware wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Sorc with the new Mythic proc'ing constant status effects is more OP than WW. In Battlegrounds you get deleted by it even on a high health WW.

WW is also running the same thing. From my testing WW actually nukes that Sorc spec way faster.

WW is melee range and Sorc is ranged with ele sus that costs nothing to cast. In Battlegrounds where you don't have damage resistance from CP Sorc is more op.

WW has a gap closer

Chase0351 · June 17

Twohothardware wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Sorc with the new Mythic proc'ing constant status effects is more OP than WW. In Battlegrounds you get deleted by it even on a high health WW.

WW is also running the same thing. From my testing WW actually nukes that Sorc spec way faster.

WW is melee range and Sorc is ranged with ele sus that costs nothing to cast. In Battlegrounds where you don't have damage resistance from CP Sorc is more op.

Sorcs are pretty easy to counter. You can block their crushing shock gank if you have enough resistances and seek cover to break line of sight. It’s really that simple. Most of the time this strategy solves the issue because most sorcs are too squishy to run you down and they know if they get cc’d and ult dumped by leap or dawn breaker they are probably done. This is not the case with WW. There is no escape from WW and they do not care about line of sight because they are going to close the gap anyway.

Also, if elesus is killing you then you probably need to increase your resistances and examine your build because while it can sting a good bit especially on proper status effect build it’s still just chip damage that you can easily heal through.

Wuuffyy · June 17

Chase0351 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Jamm @Chase0351 - 4 responses in a row just to make sure this dying thread doesn’t fall off of the main page. I was hit with a 9k DK burst delay into a 28k whip with 28k resists. Oh, and they had 41k health and infinite sustain (I imagine) from core of flame also.

DK is plenty fine against wolf especially the average wolf I imagine (not that building resistance even matters against it)

Don’t take this the wrong way but 28k resistance is very low in current meta. Once you are debuffed with major and minor breach you’re down to roughly 19k and if you are fighting more than one player you may have more resistance debuffs on you lowering your already squishy resistance down even further. So at 28k resistance you are obviously not the kind of WW player/build that this thread is referring to. The meta ww builds are high resistance plus armor pots and high health which is why they can 1vX large Zergs and do very well. I’m talking 40k+ resistance easily and 40k+ health with infinite sustain and really good damage pressure plus you can’t outrun them either. These are the balance breaking builds that need to be addressed, not the casual builds. The casual builds are not even a factor.

Oh, and I made four separate posts because I wanted to address each of those four points individually instead of all in one long text block post.

I’m running the Signet meta/Warden mastery build (over here waiting for the inevitable nerfs as these 3 or so people literally don’t stop spinning it so) but with more pen and mag recovery. Mind you I’m both still killable if I don’t watch my Rampage and hold it until the entire Zerg jumps on me because I’m a HUGE target AND my damage on any of the 35k+ health builds is just… okay (ooooh, deficiencies)

I still have permanent major protection as well as corrosive full pens armor… but even if it didn’t… That’s a 20k or so whip (from the 28k there) and the other, smaller whip that came right before would have been 10k (instead of the 14k) as you can clearly see in the screenshot on the top of page 2…

That’s not counting the other burst move (yet another DK move) they hit me for or the one I’m sure didn’t even pop up on the recap. I was taking back as I was in Cyro and just passed by this person… and died.

It finally clicked when I saw that the DK in question has 41k health and then I was legitimately questioning how wolf is any different except I only have serious damage with a handful of builds for werewolf and none of them have actual burst outside of proc sets.

Edit (think I’ll put this on every page @React or @hoangdz bump this to; this was done TO an ‘unstoppable meta werewolf’ mind you):

Arunei · June 18

hoangdz wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Where's this everyone you speak of? I'm sure myself and many others would like to speak with them. Because a handful of people cannot speak for everyone, and we shouldn't act like they can.

People YOU know might think it needs a nerf, and hey, maybe it does for PvP (tho again I cannot stress enough that every time a new shiny thing comes along combat wise it's ALWAYS too OP for PvP so it's nothing new with WW). But trying to say the people YOU know, when that is a very small percent of the playerbase, thinks it needs a nerf = ""everyone"" thinking it needs a nerf is...silly. And so is trying to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree as a "WW main", too.

This whole thing was beaten to death over in the PTS, where a handful of Mastery Passives + Signet were doing a lot of damage with WW and it being lauded as a problem with WW itself rather than the unexpected interactions with it and certain Mastery Passives (admitted by ZOS) and how WW Ult works and how Signet interacts with THAT. And we saw that there were indeed builds that DIDN'T use those things that weren't doing as much. YOU posted one, the 6k damage one that was hardly the 10k and then 14k damage that more min-maxed builds were doing.

So again, maybe instead of asking ZOS to nerf WW, y'all should focus on asking them to look at what is ACTUALLY causing problems and adjust those? While this dev team is doing much better than those prior in not just smacking a sledgehammer into something to nerf it in PvE for PvP adjustments, that doesn't mean it can't still happen. And with WW having been awful for the last several YEARS, I'd much rather it not be given the Old Yellar treatment when other things are what need looking at.

Everyone outside of the WW community? Lol.

And where is that? Because there's only like two threads here talking about it being too OP, and I didn't see much talk about it being too OP over on Reddit. Also I remember when you told me months ago how my input on something didn't matter since I don't PvP; well, I guess we could just say everyone who doesn't play WW also shouldn't have their input taken into account, right? As for your request about specific builds, I don't need to provide one. Anyone can do a search of the forums and find threads complaining about people who are both unkillable and can kill other players. Just because WW can do it now doesn't mean it's something inherently wrong with WW. It's a symptom, not the cause, and the cause is what y'all should be wanting to get fixed because otherwise you'll just keep complaining that each symptom needs to be nerfed despite it not being the problem.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Unkillable players who can also do a decent amount of damage have been an issue since before WW.

All of such builds should.have their main vomponents banned, but this is 100% correct. If one isnt cheesing in ESO, they are just inferior and are going to die quickly.

I wouldn't say they need to be banned, that's silly and it would adversely impact people who aren't abusing X or Y thing. What needs to be looked at is the components and tweaks made to them where appropriate.

Luneca wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Just play Vengeance, don't know why you're crying to ZOS about balance when they started developing a more balanced ruleset

Vengeance still isn't balanced, and one campaign isn't all of PvP. At least hopefully that won't be the future.

Also the greater issue with balance is that it's not just poor in PvP, it's poor across the board for various reasons.

Two classes that are poorly balanced right now, templar and necro, are bad in PvP, sure. But the core issue lies with their skill lines and that they lack even a basic buff like major savagery with reliable uptime.

When this is the case, and ZOS releases things like werewolf with high uptime on buffs just tossed around, how can anyone not call attention to how poorly balanced the game is?

There needs to be some semblance of consistency with the changes they are making, otherwise there's no reason to have other options even exist if it's just an inferior variation of the same thing.

And we can find many examples of why werewolf isn't balanced. I just came out of anesthesia and I can think of them off the top of my head with little difficulty. There is no way people playing the contrarian right now don't know what's wrong with the "class" of werewolf, they just simply don't want their power taken away.

I said it in another post, but the game is not in a competitive state right now. That's a fact. What's happening in PvP spaces isn't really PvP; it's just a poor imiation of it.

So what's new with WW that makes it any different from all the other unkillable DPS builds that have existed in Cyro for years? Again, WW is a symptom of things that need addressing, it's not the cause.

And people aren't being contrarian because we don't want to lose power. We're pointing out things that have been the case for ages, and also don't want to see WW getting nerfed in PvE for PvP when it's not WW itself that's the problem, but the way some things in the game interact.

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

Sure, but first, let's address this problem. In 2 of your posts you said this:

"your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts",
" your echochamber"

First of all, I, React, Pelican, and many others have played Cyrodiil on multiple characters and done 1vX, smallscale, and largescale PvP. I personally also play BG a lot and the BG community knows me pretty well. So no, we are not a "clique of 1v1 enthusiasts". We are simply good players.

Second of all, the term "echochamber" means "a phenomenon in which an individual's beliefs and views are reinforced by exposure to information that aligns with their preexisting opinions." This is factually wrong, considering the fact that most of us have done OUR OWN testings on the PTS and came to the same conclusion. If I say WW is busted and Pelican says it isn't, we will not hesitate to try proving each other wrong. In fact, React has openly disagreed with me both in our discord and on the forums when I made several threads asking for Heart of Flame to be nerfed. That is NOT an echochamber whatsoever. Meanwhile, the forums resembles an echochamber more than what you're trying to paint us as. I have seen multiple people band together to argue against me while providing zero tangible evidence to support their claims.

Back to your main argument. Why balance around the top players?

It's simple. You balance around the ceiling because at that level, only class/build balance affects the outcome. If 2 players have perfected their mechanics and know each other's combo by heart, then the only winning factor in that fight is whoever plays a better class/build. Both React and Pelican are extremely good players and are probably on par with each other. If you put both of them on a DK build, they will stalemate for a long time until 1 of them makes a mistake or lags out. But if you put 1 of them on a WW, then the outcome heavily favors the one with the WW. If you try to buff a class in favor of average players, sure they'll perform slightly better, but average players will still have a massive gap of PvP knowledge. Like, bad/average DKs are still failing to survive and sustain well in outnumbered PvP even with infinite sustain from Heart of Flame and survivability from Wings. They are still not timing their combo correctly and securing kills when their spammable can deal ~20k tooltip damage and their AoE burst can nuke 40k+ HP instantly. Like, do we just keep making them stronger so these players can finally secure kills reliably? This only serves to divide the veteran community into 2 fragments:

1) Those who chase the meta to stay competitive
2) Those who leave the game because they can't play their own class due to balance issues

Average players don't really notice this issue because it doesn't matter what class they play. They are still going to die or fail at getting kills. So why does it matter that we veteran players ask for balance changes if the outcome is the same for the average ones?

Do you remember U35? The thing I kept bringing up in the PTS that did exactly what you seem to want to happen? The thing that was supposed to lower the ceiling and all that, but instead resulted in DPS loss across the board for everyone, INCLUDING more casual players? The thing that hardly affected the top 1% of players despite it being done to bring what they could do in line?

You CANNOT BALANCE around what the top meta pushing min-maxers can do, because all it ever does is result in nerfs that will NEVER stop that 1% from finding other ""broken"" things that need fixing. Meanwhile everyone else below the 1% has their builds nerfed in some way and they lose DPS/healing/tanking that the ones at the top have NO problem getting back after a bit of time. Average players DO feel that loss, too, regardless of how little you think they notice it. Why do you think so many people were upset by it?

Also the "Average players don't really notice this issue because it doesn't matter what class they play. They are still going to die or fail at getting kills. So why does it matter that we veteran players ask for balance changes if the outcome is the same for the average ones?" part is...ridiculous at best. People in PvP aren't only ever going up against the PvP pros, they're going up against people who are more skilled, equally skilled, and less skilled than they are. And nerfing X or Y could very well alter what any given person's build can do against anyone else.

You say it's bad for the game to balance around what the majority can do. How is nerfing something that a handful of players can abuse, compared to the number of actual players, somehow better? When average or below average players can start keeping up with above average PvPers then there might be a problem, but I don't see that happening. I see skilled players using things that have existed to make busted PvP builds in this game for years doing it with WW now and people acting like those skilled players using busted builds somehow means EVERYONE running WW is doing the same thing.

Despite the fact that there are people in this very thread mentioning how they AREN'T unkillable murderhobos, but their posts being dismissed with "well these top players can do it so it must be a you problem if you can't". So tell us, then; how is it such a problem if that exact scenario, that average players can't do what the above average players can, is happening?

Chase0351 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

Don’t tell @React or @hoangdz - it doesn’t fit the ‘werewolf OP at all costs’ narrative they try to push on every thread. It doesn’t die, I’ll give them that. Outside of the signet meta build- I’m not just killing every single person (or even close, regardless of build lol) I run across in Cyro- guess I’ll just 1 v 1 forever and or focus on people sub-35k health as if either are realistic scenarios in any serious PvP content.

Mind you they simply don’t stop posting. Like ZOS, etc.- please recognize the agenda even if the thread picks up- thanks!

I realize that you’re probably a WW main but c’mon… If we can’t all agree that WW is busted whether you favor it or not, I don’t see how eso PvP can ever be truly balanced. It’s a meme class like vampire that should not be performing at the level it’s currently at. Furthermore, no one bar build should ever be remotely competitive whatsoever. This game was founded on having multiple bars, managing buffs, debuffs, heals and damage output. All of that used to culminate the skill component of the game. WW does all of that with a few buttons, no bar swapping and not much thought in regards to positioning, active defense or resource management.

You can't dismiss a playstyle as a "meme" just because you don't like it. Neither WW nor Vamp are "meme Classes" and they're actually allowed to perform as well as any other Class is. You sound like you just don't think 1bar builds in general should be allowed to be viable.

React · June 18

Arunei wrote: »

You sound like you just don't think 1bar builds in general should be allowed to be viable.

In an environment where you are directly competing against other players, something with 50% of the mechanical complexity of everything else should not be producing similar, or in current ww's case, better results. It's as simple as that. One bar builds are fine as a simplified version of the game for people that want it, but they should not be outperforming two bar setups.

WW is dramatically outperforming everything that isn't a DK or a status sorc, and it is still edging out both of those specs at the highest levels on the "meta" builds. It has unparalleled survivability, great mobility, excellent sustain, and the highest DPS you can achieve. The dramatically reduced complexity of one bar means WAY less GCDs spent on buffing, and way more GCDs spent damaging or healing (or in rip and tear's case, both).

Something's gotta give.

Radiate77 · June 18

Whatever they do with Werewolf balance, it has to be thoughtful… there are people who love the spec and fantasy archetype.

I’ve always been a fan of the idea to add a second bar to Werewolf and then balance it like a class.

Luneca · June 18

Radiate77 wrote: »

Whatever they do with Werewolf balance, it has to be thoughtful… there are people who love the spec and fantasy archetype.

I’ve always been a fan of the idea to add a second bar to Werewolf and then balance it like a class.

That is the true solution, but you better believe the WW players right now don't want to give up their super compressed toolkit. Because it enables them to take more actions they otherwise could not. Bringing it to two bars and removing the compression would actually be the biggest nerf that WW's could recieve out of any of the proposals.

But it would also be the only "balancing" one as well. But watch the WW defense squad that keeps claiming WW is a class claim that it's not reasonable to do it. Let me guess, they will cite "history" in the game and how it worked.

Oh, the same history where damaging ability that healed never healed for HP% or got nerfed? The same history where the heal on puncturing sweeps was thought to be OP and nerfed into the ground? Or how about the same history where dark cloak got nerfed into the ground?

It's comical how hard these guys are trying to protect their cheese. But tough that no matter how hard you protect it, it'll eventually turn moldy or melt.

Radiate77 · June 18

@Luneca believe it or not; I’ve heard several Werewolf mains state that they wish it were 2-bar, or would be okay with it becoming so.

I’d imagine that it’s gotta be exhausting watching all the hate for your preferred roleplay in an RPG, and if it’s two bar or nerfed to oblivion, why wouldn’t they pick the first option?

s3dulo · June 18

Wuuffyy wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

If you optimized your WW build, this is accurate. I have smoked plenty of WWs on my DK but I ran into a WW meta build yesterday and It was dizzying. My CMX read about 5500 DPS from the WW. And I was running 33k resist and spent most of the fight on my backbar with major/minor protection. We fought for around two minutes. I managed 3500 DPS being almost entirely defensive and hammering my HoTs but my damage did almost nothing to put the WW on the defensive. As soon as I took some small risks to try to burst, my pitiful 34k HP didn't last long.

If you know anything about dueling, 5500 DPS is crazy high damage output. Especially if the build is also running 45k HP and 100% major protection uptime. That's really unheard of. Your average player has zero chance. Your average 5 players have zero chance.

I think DK ended up in a good place but WW has been overtuned. Nothing wrong with going bold but it needs to be walked back.

I was hit by a 28k whip (you can see above I also have clips, etc.) and nearly insta-killed by a 41k health DK (with core of flame I imagine too). I don’t know if you knew this but between corrosive, vigor, and healing soul+ ability to roll dodge ‘5500’ with no burst is not the same as 4k with the ability to pop your ulti and hit for 40k in a second. Which is exactly how I said this would go in practice.

Fantastic for 1v1s though… assuming it doesn’t just end in a stalemate.

Yeah, either neither is balanced or both are balanced around being on a ‘reworked’ level. Most certainly not ‘wolf OP’ and ‘DK is fine’.

Yes. I could hit you with such a whip as well. However, it takes a large amount of skill and some luck to do that on a good player. People can land 30k spec bows as well and that's ranged. Fe7on showed this on his yt channel early in subclassing. But that's what the riposte CP is for. Supercharing one hit of direct damage.

But if a WW is on you with 5500 DPS and 45-50k health, there is no bursting that. Your only hope is applying enough pressure via DoTs. I'm running a pyre/wildfire build that can hit high DPS as well but I'm 10k health short. Maybe if I managed a 500 Balorg ulti with riposte I could burst down such a WW but it's unlikely. I forgot to mention that I was holding block for much of that fight and he still managed 5500 dps.

Go to Pelican's YouTube channel where he's shown a 200-0 dueling record with his WW. This is against some very good duelers too who would smoke 99.99% of players.

I have no problem with the possibility of a 30k hit in PVP as long as it's difficult, dodgeable, and blockable. But what is happening with WW is busted OP. Nobody on a DK is going 200-0. Subclassing builds and pure sorcs are still very much capable of performing at DK levels but WW is a level above them all.

hoangdz · June 18

Arunei wrote: »

Do you remember U35? The thing I kept bringing up in the PTS that did exactly what you seem to want to happen? The thing that was supposed to lower the ceiling and all that, but instead resulted in DPS loss across the board for everyone, INCLUDING more casual players? The thing that hardly affected the top 1% of players despite it being done to bring what they could do in line?

Yes, in U35 ZOS reduced the damage of LAs by 26%:

Their reasoning:

"Overall, we are keeping Light Attacks in place of the top DPS producing results, albeit at a lesser extent than what they were doing before, and Heavy Attacks will remain more resource driven."

"The main reason for streamlining these values was to reduce the bloat of damage production they can provide at the high level, reinforcing an intense necessity to perfectly “light weave” to produce viable damage. "

If I understand these two statements correctly, ZOS still intended for LAs to remain the top DPS, and reinforced the need to have a perfect LA weave.

Yes, people who retained a perfect LA weave would have netted a DPS loss due to the 26% light attack damage reduction. People who did not have a perfect rotation would have suffered a significantly more reduction. How is this a problem though? If a player has a bad rotation, they are going to suffer the most. Do you know what would instantly improve their DPS? By practicing their weaving on a target dummy.

Arunei wrote: »

You CANNOT BALANCE around what the top meta pushing min-maxers can do, because all it ever does is result in nerfs that will NEVER stop that 1% from finding other ""broken"" things that need fixing. Meanwhile everyone else below the 1% has their builds nerfed in some way and they lose DPS/healing/tanking that the ones at the top have NO problem getting back after a bit of time. Average players DO feel that loss, too, regardless of how little you think they notice it. Why do you think so many people were upset by it?

No, this is exactly why you should balance around top players. For example, if 99 people are wearing unoptimized setups and 1 guy shows up with a min-maxed cringe build that nobody has seen before and starts dominating every fight, people are going to try copying him. Eventually, you'll have more than half of the population running that dude's build, and PvP becomes extremely toxic because you need to be in that setup to compete.

Top players are the ones who are most knowledgable about the game and are willing to push the limits of theory-crafting. They are the ones who will be running the most cancerous setups and dominating everyone they come across. Then other players will want to play like that and will ask for that specific build, accidentally setting the meta as everyone will be running that cringe cancerous setup. That is how metas are created in every PvP game. To say that we shouldn't balance around top players is just flat out denying the reality of PvP game design.

Arunei wrote: »

Also the "Average players don't really notice this issue because it doesn't matter what class they play. They are still going to die or fail at getting kills. So why does it matter that we veteran players ask for balance changes if the outcome is the same for the average ones?" part is...ridiculous at best. People in PvP aren't only ever going up against the PvP pros, they're going up against people who are more skilled, equally skilled, and less skilled than they are. And nerfing X or Y could very well alter what any given person's build can do against anyone else.

That is literally how we tested on the PTS. The top 1% of PvPers mostly have perfect mechanics, so the only deciding factors are builds and class balance. At that level, anyone running a WW would instantly dominate fights against someone else on a normal setup. This will translate to fights at lower skill level as well. If you put 2 average players against each other, the one on a WW will have a much higher chance of winning the fight because its toolkit is incredibly easy and forgiving.

Arunei wrote: »

You say it's bad for the game to balance around what the majority can do. How is nerfing something that a handful of players can abuse, compared to the number of actual players, somehow better? When average or below average players can start keeping up with above average PvPers then there might be a problem, but I don't see that happening. I see skilled players using things that have existed to make busted PvP builds in this game for years doing it with WW now and people acting like those skilled players using busted builds somehow means EVERYONE running WW is doing the same thing.

Last time I checked, proc sets and mythics are accessible to everyone? You're talking like top players are gate keeping builds behind a paywall lol. Pelican even released a build video and guide on how to play WW, all for free. People can literally watch it and practice as guided until they get better. That is exactly the reason why we balance around top players instead of the majority. They are the ones who discover the meta and release it into the wild.

Arunei wrote: »

Despite the fact that there are people in this very thread mentioning how they AREN'T unkillable murderhobos, but their posts being dismissed with "well these top players can do it so it must be a you problem if you can't". So tell us, then; how is it such a problem if that exact scenario, that average players can't do what the above average players can, is happening?

If average players are still dying despite wearing a build that has a 20k burst heal tooltip, a spammable with a 15k burst heal tooltip, Major Protection, Major Expedition, unlimited sustain, that is NOT an indicator that the class is balanced. The benchmark has been set that WW is an unkillable machine with 8k+ DPS. Failing to meet that benchmark is not a reason to defend WW.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

Sure, but first, let's address this problem. In 2 of your posts you said this:

"your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts",
" your echochamber"

First of all, I, React, Pelican

Second of all, the term "echochamber" means "a phenomenon in which an individual's beliefs and views are reinforced by exposure to information that aligns with their preexisting opinions." This is factually wrong, considering the fact that most of us have done OUR OWN testings on the PTS and came to the same conclusion.

Exactly, the same names that always come up in your threads. Yourself, and the more well known React and Pelican. React I see around cyrodiil still, and he's usually xing, Pelican's new account I always forget the name of so if he's playing in pcna idk but I know he also likes to x and duel. You, almost always only talk about duels. Will take your word on the rest, but just like most of the community of vet pvpers, they get a lot of their opinions from react and pelican especially.

You're not special in that regard, but I can say as good as they are, their knowledge and their opinion doesn't really apply to the general population as much as they think because the general population isn't playing the way they do. They don't group seemingly at all and you wont see them around others, so for instance when react is complaining about pulse gankers etc or the amount of damage he's dealing with, its almost always in the scenario of react v 8 or so zerglings.

Duels is 1v1 obviously. Neither situation is really applicable to most pvp game modes. 1v1s happen but nothing is based around it.

This is where you're not understanding, 'we're just good, we're veteran players' well let me tell ya veteran players is a very general term and your mileage will vary there. Ballgroupers for instance don't play anything like any of us in this convo and they would probably argue soloers, duelers, and 1vXers are trash. Their playstyle is also much more suited to cyrodiil and even bgs, been on the business end of those four mans in bgs, lol not fun, and even the best players get folded by those.

TLDR is: I really do not think you are taking into account what the general population of pvpers is actually like, and why your suggestions for nerfing everything is not widely accepted here. Most players including ones many consider better players, because they play in a way thats suited for the actual game modes, arent asking for nerfs. Same reason why my brawler builds deal with pulse gankers just fine unless there's a bunch of them on me at once, and why others are begging for a nerf. Even with how you describe yourself and include yourself in the conversation next to react and pelican, which react participates in these threads and can speak for himself, its clear you really don't look at things in much of any other way that is outside the perspective of your group of duelers and pts buddies. Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way. Can tell ya for sure, heart of flame seems pretty dang reasonable when i have 45k plus health werewolves dropping 6k dps on me, was very thankful for it. If they listened to you I'd be helpless to the very werewolves you're now asking to nerf.

As I said many times before, Zos is powering up everyone, so if you wanna nerf something you should wait until they're done cooking.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

Dunno how many times it has to be said, we're in a transition phase and everything that comes out is gonna likely feel very strong compared to 1. Subclassing and 2. Unfinished pure classes.

Class Masteries were made to somewhat alleviate things until the process is done. People can say what they like about that strategy, if the masteries were adjusted enough for this cycle, if refreshed classes should even receive class masteries, etc. But zos has also already said they're not trying to nerf things overall until theyre done. Until then buckle in and enjoy the ride.

And as for werewolf specifically since they dont have a mastery, ngl really if they did nerf werewolves, why would anyone play them in this meta with how strong dk are, and what use would they serve? Ask yourself that before worrying about whats dominating your 1v1 circle. They've been very useless for a long, long time. Losing dps or healing would make them big hairy chonky dk targets, they already are tbh.

hoangdz · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

Sure, but first, let's address this problem. In 2 of your posts you said this:

"your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts",
" your echochamber"

First of all, I, React, Pelican

Second of all, the term "echochamber" means "a phenomenon in which an individual's beliefs and views are reinforced by exposure to information that aligns with their preexisting opinions." This is factually wrong, considering the fact that most of us have done OUR OWN testings on the PTS and came to the same conclusion.

Exactly, the same names that always come up in your threads. Yourself, and the more well known React and Pelican. React I see around cyrodiil still, and he's usually xing, Pelican's new account I always forget the name of so if he's playing in pcna idk but I know he also likes to x and duel. You, almost always only talk about duels. Will take your word on the rest, but just like most of the community of vet pvpers, they get a lot of their opinions from react and pelican especially.

You're not special in that regard, but I can say as good as they are, their knowledge and their opinion doesn't really apply to the general population as much as they think because the general population isn't playing the way they do. They don't group seemingly at all and you wont see them around others, so for instance when react is complaining about pulse gankers etc or the amount of damage he's dealing with, its almost always in the scenario of react v 8 or so zerglings.

Duels is 1v1 obviously. Neither situation is really applicable to most pvp game modes. 1v1s happen but nothing is based around it.

This is where you're not understanding, 'we're just good, we're veteran players' well let me tell ya veteran players is a very general term and your mileage will vary there. Ballgroupers for instance don't play anything like any of us in this convo and they would probably argue soloers, duelers, and 1vXers are trash. Their playstyle is also much more suited to cyrodiil and even bgs, been on the business end of those four mans in bgs, lol not fun, and even the best players get folded by those.

TLDR is: I really do not think you are taking into account what the general population of pvpers is actually like, and why your suggestions for nerfing everything is not widely accepted here. Most players including ones many consider better players, because they play in a way thats suited for the actual game modes, arent asking for nerfs. Same reason why my brawler builds deal with pulse gankers just fine unless there's a bunch of them on me at once, and why others are begging for a nerf. Even with how you describe yourself and include yourself in the conversation next to react and pelican, which react participates in these threads and can speak for himself, its clear you really don't look at things in much of any other way that is outside the perspective of your group of duelers and pts buddies. Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way. Can tell ya for sure, heart of flame seems pretty dang reasonable when i have 45k plus health werewolves dropping 6k dps on me, was very thankful for it. If they listened to you I'd be helpless to the very werewolves you're now asking to nerf.

As I said many times before, Zos is powering up everyone, so if you wanna nerf something you should wait until they're done cooking.

1) I bring up React and Pelican alot because they are active participants in the PTS testing phase. @Alchimiste1 , @FoJul , @Decimus and alot more are all in agreement about WW's overpeformance. I could name them all, but this isn't a naming contest.

2) Lol, I also gank too, and that spec is busted. You must have never been ganked by a group of pulseblades then, because they can actually delete an unorganized pug

3) 1v1s definitely exist in Cyrodiil. Outside of a zerg, every fight is a micro-1v1. If you don't see it then you need to stop zerg surfing

4) The best ball groups I've seen consist of good players who can also do well solo. I can't say the same thing for all though

5) It's actually very simple why we come to the same conclusion. If you had the entire forums show up on the PTS at once to test, Pelican would obviously dominate everyone on his WW. Then you'd see other people copy him slowly until WW made up a sizable portion of the testing player base. This is how metas are formed and we are trying to prevent this meta from happening. Not an echochamber at all

6) Or maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't need to have Heart of Flame if ZOS properly balances their game? Lol.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

Sure, but first, let's address this problem. In 2 of your posts you said this:

"your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts",
" your echochamber"

First of all, I, React, Pelican

Second of all, the term "echochamber" means "a phenomenon in which an individual's beliefs and views are reinforced by exposure to information that aligns with their preexisting opinions." This is factually wrong, considering the fact that most of us have done OUR OWN testings on the PTS and came to the same conclusion.

Exactly, the same names that always come up in your threads. Yourself, and the more well known React and Pelican. React I see around cyrodiil still, and he's usually xing, Pelican's new account I always forget the name of so if he's playing in pcna idk but I know he also likes to x and duel. You, almost always only talk about duels. Will take your word on the rest, but just like most of the community of vet pvpers, they get a lot of their opinions from react and pelican especially.

You're not special in that regard, but I can say as good as they are, their knowledge and their opinion doesn't really apply to the general population as much as they think because the general population isn't playing the way they do. They don't group seemingly at all and you wont see them around others, so for instance when react is complaining about pulse gankers etc or the amount of damage he's dealing with, its almost always in the scenario of react v 8 or so zerglings.

Duels is 1v1 obviously. Neither situation is really applicable to most pvp game modes. 1v1s happen but nothing is based around it.

This is where you're not understanding, 'we're just good, we're veteran players' well let me tell ya veteran players is a very general term and your mileage will vary there. Ballgroupers for instance don't play anything like any of us in this convo and they would probably argue soloers, duelers, and 1vXers are trash. Their playstyle is also much more suited to cyrodiil and even bgs, been on the business end of those four mans in bgs, lol not fun, and even the best players get folded by those.

TLDR is: I really do not think you are taking into account what the general population of pvpers is actually like, and why your suggestions for nerfing everything is not widely accepted here. Most players including ones many consider better players, because they play in a way thats suited for the actual game modes, arent asking for nerfs. Same reason why my brawler builds deal with pulse gankers just fine unless there's a bunch of them on me at once, and why others are begging for a nerf. Even with how you describe yourself and include yourself in the conversation next to react and pelican, which react participates in these threads and can speak for himself, its clear you really don't look at things in much of any other way that is outside the perspective of your group of duelers and pts buddies. Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way. Can tell ya for sure, heart of flame seems pretty dang reasonable when i have 45k plus health werewolves dropping 6k dps on me, was very thankful for it. If they listened to you I'd be helpless to the very werewolves you're now asking to nerf.

As I said many times before, Zos is powering up everyone, so if you wanna nerf something you should wait until they're done cooking.

1) I bring up React and Pelican alot because they are active participants in the PTS testing phase. @Alchimiste1 , @FoJul , @Decimus and alot more are all in agreement about WW's overpeformance. I could name them all, but this isn't a naming contest.

2) Lol, I also gank too, and that spec is busted. You must have never been ganked by a group of pulseblades then, because they can actually delete an unorganized pug

3) 1v1s definitely exist in Cyrodiil. Outside of a zerg, every fight is a micro-1v1. If you don't see it then you need to stop zerg surfing

4) The best ball groups I've seen consist of good players who can also do well solo. I can't say the same thing for all though

5) It's actually very simple why we come to the same conclusion. If you had the entire forums show up on the PTS at once to test, Pelican would obviously dominate everyone on his WW. Then you'd see other people copy him slowly until WW made up a sizable portion of the testing player base. This is how metas are formed and we are trying to prevent this meta from happening. Not an echochamber at all

6) Or maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't need to have Heart of Flame if ZOS properly balances their game? Lol.

1. Could fool me lol but echochambers aren’t necessarily small, look at these forums for instance
2. I’ve yet to see a gank group take a keep or push the field, even win a bgs match against a good team of non pvers, all they’re busted at is being annoying, and a waste of space
3. Of course they exist, it’s not like I don’t duel. Theyre not what Cyrodiil is designed for however and those who seek them in cyro are easily ignored in most cases. Anything claiming to need a nerf because of duels is honestly irrelevant in every actual PvP mode or else things like huntsman would also need a nerf
4. Majority of ballgroupers I see solo lol it’s pretty sad tbh, the ones that are actually good alone stand out, there’s very few nowadays at least and they spend their time instead chasing down solos xv1
5. Wish that did happen because werewolves are really not suited for groups with lack of aoes aside from fear, and their easily dodgeable cone claw swipes, and cross healing which dominates all game modes
6. Part of their process to try that is buffing everyone. Like I’ve said yet again. You disagree with the strategy fine, noted but that is indeed the strategy. Maybe just maybe asking for nerfs every cycle isn’t the way to go.

hoangdz · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

Sure, but first, let's address this problem. In 2 of your posts you said this:

"your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts",
" your echochamber"

First of all, I, React, Pelican

Second of all, the term "echochamber" means "a phenomenon in which an individual's beliefs and views are reinforced by exposure to information that aligns with their preexisting opinions." This is factually wrong, considering the fact that most of us have done OUR OWN testings on the PTS and came to the same conclusion.

Exactly, the same names that always come up in your threads. Yourself, and the more well known React and Pelican. React I see around cyrodiil still, and he's usually xing, Pelican's new account I always forget the name of so if he's playing in pcna idk but I know he also likes to x and duel. You, almost always only talk about duels. Will take your word on the rest, but just like most of the community of vet pvpers, they get a lot of their opinions from react and pelican especially.

You're not special in that regard, but I can say as good as they are, their knowledge and their opinion doesn't really apply to the general population as much as they think because the general population isn't playing the way they do. They don't group seemingly at all and you wont see them around others, so for instance when react is complaining about pulse gankers etc or the amount of damage he's dealing with, its almost always in the scenario of react v 8 or so zerglings.

Duels is 1v1 obviously. Neither situation is really applicable to most pvp game modes. 1v1s happen but nothing is based around it.

This is where you're not understanding, 'we're just good, we're veteran players' well let me tell ya veteran players is a very general term and your mileage will vary there. Ballgroupers for instance don't play anything like any of us in this convo and they would probably argue soloers, duelers, and 1vXers are trash. Their playstyle is also much more suited to cyrodiil and even bgs, been on the business end of those four mans in bgs, lol not fun, and even the best players get folded by those.

TLDR is: I really do not think you are taking into account what the general population of pvpers is actually like, and why your suggestions for nerfing everything is not widely accepted here. Most players including ones many consider better players, because they play in a way thats suited for the actual game modes, arent asking for nerfs. Same reason why my brawler builds deal with pulse gankers just fine unless there's a bunch of them on me at once, and why others are begging for a nerf. Even with how you describe yourself and include yourself in the conversation next to react and pelican, which react participates in these threads and can speak for himself, its clear you really don't look at things in much of any other way that is outside the perspective of your group of duelers and pts buddies. Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way. Can tell ya for sure, heart of flame seems pretty dang reasonable when i have 45k plus health werewolves dropping 6k dps on me, was very thankful for it. If they listened to you I'd be helpless to the very werewolves you're now asking to nerf.

As I said many times before, Zos is powering up everyone, so if you wanna nerf something you should wait until they're done cooking.

1) I bring up React and Pelican alot because they are active participants in the PTS testing phase. @Alchimiste1 , @FoJul , @Decimus and alot more are all in agreement about WW's overpeformance. I could name them all, but this isn't a naming contest.

2) Lol, I also gank too, and that spec is busted. You must have never been ganked by a group of pulseblades then, because they can actually delete an unorganized pug

3) 1v1s definitely exist in Cyrodiil. Outside of a zerg, every fight is a micro-1v1. If you don't see it then you need to stop zerg surfing

4) The best ball groups I've seen consist of good players who can also do well solo. I can't say the same thing for all though

5) It's actually very simple why we come to the same conclusion. If you had the entire forums show up on the PTS at once to test, Pelican would obviously dominate everyone on his WW. Then you'd see other people copy him slowly until WW made up a sizable portion of the testing player base. This is how metas are formed and we are trying to prevent this meta from happening. Not an echochamber at all

6) Or maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't need to have Heart of Flame if ZOS properly balances their game? Lol.

1. Could fool me lol but echochambers aren’t necessarily small, look at these forums for instance
2. I’ve yet to see a gank group take a keep or push the field, even win a bgs match against a good team of non pvers, all they’re busted at is being annoying, and a waste of space
3. Of course they exist, it’s not like I don’t duel. Theyre not what Cyrodiil is designed for however and those who seek them in cyro are easily ignored in most cases. Anything claiming to need a nerf because of duels is honestly irrelevant in every actual PvP mode or else things like huntsman would also need a nerf
4. Majority of ballgroupers I see solo lol it’s pretty sad tbh, the ones that are actually good alone stand out, there’s very few nowadays at least and they spend their time instead chasing down solos xv1
5. Wish that did happen because werewolves are really not suited for groups with lack of aoes and cross healing which dominates all game modes
6. Part of their process to try that is buffing everyone. Like I’ve said yet again. You disagree with the strategy fine, noted but that is indeed the strategy. Maybe just maybe asking for nerfs every cycle isn’t the way to go.

1) By that definition you are also in an echochamber, even if you don't actually care about that class. Everyone's got an agenda
2) See now you're looking at that from the wrong perspective. Yes, they can't take a keep or push the field, but they can delete multiple key targets (such as healers, other snipers, people rezzing and running back to the keep, people on walls, etc.) and turn the tide. In a combat zone irl, snipers do that job. Are they not contributing because they aren't charging into a building?
3) 1v1 sets are still used in Cyrodiil to zerg people down tho. You say that but historically problematic duel builds have spread to Cyrodiil. Sloads Semblance, infused glyphs meta, triple proc stacking meta, are prime examples.
4) Yes, most ball groups aren't that good either
5) But it dominates BGs and other PvP modes outside of large-scale group content. That is still grounds for balance adjustments. Largescale Cyrodiil PvP isn't the only form of PvP, you know?
6) That's basically powercreeping up everything until theorycrafting becomes meaningless. Everyone's able to stack absurd amounts of health, damage, and defense, while ignoring sustain completely. The class mastery system should have been introduced first along with minor changes to other universal skill lines like weapon skills, psijic skills, etc, while simultaneously working on 2 classes at a time to release. I'm sure people are ok with a longer PTS cycle to thoroughly test the balance changes before things go live.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

Sure, but first, let's address this problem. In 2 of your posts you said this:

"your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts",
" your echochamber"

First of all, I, React, Pelican

Second of all, the term "echochamber" means "a phenomenon in which an individual's beliefs and views are reinforced by exposure to information that aligns with their preexisting opinions." This is factually wrong, considering the fact that most of us have done OUR OWN testings on the PTS and came to the same conclusion.

Exactly, the same names that always come up in your threads. Yourself, and the more well known React and Pelican. React I see around cyrodiil still, and he's usually xing, Pelican's new account I always forget the name of so if he's playing in pcna idk but I know he also likes to x and duel. You, almost always only talk about duels. Will take your word on the rest, but just like most of the community of vet pvpers, they get a lot of their opinions from react and pelican especially.

You're not special in that regard, but I can say as good as they are, their knowledge and their opinion doesn't really apply to the general population as much as they think because the general population isn't playing the way they do. They don't group seemingly at all and you wont see them around others, so for instance when react is complaining about pulse gankers etc or the amount of damage he's dealing with, its almost always in the scenario of react v 8 or so zerglings.

Duels is 1v1 obviously. Neither situation is really applicable to most pvp game modes. 1v1s happen but nothing is based around it.

This is where you're not understanding, 'we're just good, we're veteran players' well let me tell ya veteran players is a very general term and your mileage will vary there. Ballgroupers for instance don't play anything like any of us in this convo and they would probably argue soloers, duelers, and 1vXers are trash. Their playstyle is also much more suited to cyrodiil and even bgs, been on the business end of those four mans in bgs, lol not fun, and even the best players get folded by those.

TLDR is: I really do not think you are taking into account what the general population of pvpers is actually like, and why your suggestions for nerfing everything is not widely accepted here. Most players including ones many consider better players, because they play in a way thats suited for the actual game modes, arent asking for nerfs. Same reason why my brawler builds deal with pulse gankers just fine unless there's a bunch of them on me at once, and why others are begging for a nerf. Even with how you describe yourself and include yourself in the conversation next to react and pelican, which react participates in these threads and can speak for himself, its clear you really don't look at things in much of any other way that is outside the perspective of your group of duelers and pts buddies. Hence, echochamber. You do your own testing and compare them regularly with the same people who play similarly and have generally a similar outlook on the game.

If you didn't, you might think hmm maybe heart of flame doesnt need that nerf in hindsight now that we have this werewolf refresh, the pulse ganking builds, and warden on the way. Can tell ya for sure, heart of flame seems pretty dang reasonable when i have 45k plus health werewolves dropping 6k dps on me, was very thankful for it. If they listened to you I'd be helpless to the very werewolves you're now asking to nerf.

As I said many times before, Zos is powering up everyone, so if you wanna nerf something you should wait until they're done cooking.

1) I bring up React and Pelican alot because they are active participants in the PTS testing phase. @Alchimiste1 , @FoJul , @Decimus and alot more are all in agreement about WW's overpeformance. I could name them all, but this isn't a naming contest.

2) Lol, I also gank too, and that spec is busted. You must have never been ganked by a group of pulseblades then, because they can actually delete an unorganized pug

3) 1v1s definitely exist in Cyrodiil. Outside of a zerg, every fight is a micro-1v1. If you don't see it then you need to stop zerg surfing

4) The best ball groups I've seen consist of good players who can also do well solo. I can't say the same thing for all though

5) It's actually very simple why we come to the same conclusion. If you had the entire forums show up on the PTS at once to test, Pelican would obviously dominate everyone on his WW. Then you'd see other people copy him slowly until WW made up a sizable portion of the testing player base. This is how metas are formed and we are trying to prevent this meta from happening. Not an echochamber at all

6) Or maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't need to have Heart of Flame if ZOS properly balances their game? Lol.

1. Could fool me lol but echochambers aren’t necessarily small, look at these forums for instance
2. I’ve yet to see a gank group take a keep or push the field, even win a bgs match against a good team of non pvers, all they’re busted at is being annoying, and a waste of space
3. Of course they exist, it’s not like I don’t duel. Theyre not what Cyrodiil is designed for however and those who seek them in cyro are easily ignored in most cases. Anything claiming to need a nerf because of duels is honestly irrelevant in every actual PvP mode or else things like huntsman would also need a nerf
4. Majority of ballgroupers I see solo lol it’s pretty sad tbh, the ones that are actually good alone stand out, there’s very few nowadays at least and they spend their time instead chasing down solos xv1
5. Wish that did happen because werewolves are really not suited for groups with lack of aoes and cross healing which dominates all game modes
6. Part of their process to try that is buffing everyone. Like I’ve said yet again. You disagree with the strategy fine, noted but that is indeed the strategy. Maybe just maybe asking for nerfs every cycle isn’t the way to go.

1) By that definition you are also in an echochamber, even if you don't actually care about that class. Everyone's got an agenda
2) See now you're looking at that from the wrong perspective. Yes, they can't take a keep or push the field, but they can delete multiple key targets (such as healers, other snipers, people rezzing and running back to the keep, people on walls, etc.) and turn the tide. In a combat zone irl, snipers do that job. Are they not contributing because they aren't charging into a building?
3) 1v1 sets are still used in Cyrodiil to zerg people down tho. You say that but historically problematic duel builds have spread to Cyrodiil. Sloads Semblance, infused glyphs meta, triple proc stacking meta, are prime examples.
4) Yes, most ball groups aren't that good either
5) But it dominates BGs and other PvP modes outside of large-scale group content. That is still grounds for balance adjustments. Largescale Cyrodiil PvP isn't the only form of PvP, you know?
6) That's basically powercreeping up everything until theorycrafting becomes meaningless. Everyone's able to stack absurd amounts of health, damage, and defense, while ignoring sustain completely. The class mastery system should have been introduced first along with minor changes to other universal skill lines like weapon skills, psijic skills, etc, while simultaneously working on 2 classes at a time to release. I'm sure people are ok with a longer PTS cycle to thoroughly test the balance changes before things go live.

Lol the problem here is pulse gankers don’t do any of this, instead they get a couple of people then die or run, or pick off soloers by themselves xv1 or so on, but in any case they’re faaaaar less effective than a bomber, and far less of an issue

Now bombers, they turn the tide in group content.

1v1 sets sure but it’s a Zerg, Zergs run people down regardless by nature of the Zerg and numbers. That’s why they’re op, not the duel sets or dueler builds. No one’s complaining about duelers in Zergs killing groups at a time, they’re complaining about the ballgroups. THOSE need to be nerfed

I also bg, my dk buddy and my subclassed dk friends, and healer friends together tame and put down those puppers just fine, they dominate the game mode because they’re the new shiny, and also it’s an easy one bar build setup that’s even more cheese than dk in bgs. I think that much you and I can agree on but with all the complaining about dk im happy that others can eat too, including eating these whips lol

I can’t predict the future or say if the strategy will work but im willing to wait and see if it does because we’ve been dealing with anti fun nerfs for years and its getting stale, aren’t you tired of that? Surely you’re excited to see what comes of your favorite class eventually

As for echochambers yea everyone’s got a bias, it’s good to occasionally recognize that.

BardokRedSnow · June 18

If I had to state what my bias was here, it’s that I like my werewolf not being totally and completely useless for one and for two, finally crit builds don’t have such a chokehold on the meta either, was annoying having most of my builds have to slot rallying cry, boring.