What a joke of a balance update patch

hoangdz · June 16

Arunei wrote: »

Where's this everyone you speak of? I'm sure myself and many others would like to speak with them. Because a handful of people cannot speak for everyone, and we shouldn't act like they can.

People YOU know might think it needs a nerf, and hey, maybe it does for PvP (tho again I cannot stress enough that every time a new shiny thing comes along combat wise it's ALWAYS too OP for PvP so it's nothing new with WW). But trying to say the people YOU know, when that is a very small percent of the playerbase, thinks it needs a nerf = ""everyone"" thinking it needs a nerf is...silly. And so is trying to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree as a "WW main", too.

This whole thing was beaten to death over in the PTS, where a handful of Mastery Passives + Signet were doing a lot of damage with WW and it being lauded as a problem with WW itself rather than the unexpected interactions with it and certain Mastery Passives (admitted by ZOS) and how WW Ult works and how Signet interacts with THAT. And we saw that there were indeed builds that DIDN'T use those things that weren't doing as much. YOU posted one, the 6k damage one that was hardly the 10k and then 14k damage that more min-maxed builds were doing.

So again, maybe instead of asking ZOS to nerf WW, y'all should focus on asking them to look at what is ACTUALLY causing problems and adjust those? While this dev team is doing much better than those prior in not just smacking a sledgehammer into something to nerf it in PvE for PvP adjustments, that doesn't mean it can't still happen. And with WW having been awful for the last several YEARS, I'd much rather it not be given the Old Yellar treatment when other things are what need looking at.

Everyone outside of the WW community? Lol.

hoangdz · June 16

Arunei wrote: »

Unkillable players who can also do a decent amount of damage have been an issue since before WW.

Show me a build in the history of the game that can stack 50k HP, deal 6k+ DPS, and can tank 10 people in Cyrodiil. I will wait.

Wuuffyy · June 16

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

Edit: OMG, just passed by this dude and he zero’d my OP wolf.

hoangdz · June 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

There is a reason I name-drop him and React in every WW thread. Pelican is currently one of the best WWs in the game (which is ironic because he doesn't main the class and has only played WW this update). React is also one of the better DKs in the game. Every duel between React and Pelican has been onesided, with Pelican easily putting React on the back bar for the majority of the duel. The only win condition for React is critting everything in his combo (which can deal 40k burst), yet that is STILL not enough damage because Pelican has 48k HP and 2 casts of his burst heal will restore him to full.

So if you struggle against DKs and other people, then I don't know what to tell you man. WW is objectively overtuned and just because people can't utilize it to its fullest potential doesn't mean it does not deserve a nerf. It does.

Oblivion_Protocol · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is the most broken class in the game and literally cannot die. It often requires coordinated attacks from at least 4 competent players to even hope of doing anything, and if the WW singles out even just 1 of them it's GG. I have been doing BGs all night and seeing good WWs completely dominate this PvP mode, often ignoring an entire team pounding on them while focusing on 1 person in that team until they secure the kill. In dueling, WWs outmatch everything we have seen right now, it's not even close. In Cyrodiil, packs of WW with 45-50k HP are borderline unkillable and it is so annoying having to deal with them. It's absolutely insane that this class is allowed to go live when people, including me, have given plenty of feedback about it during the PTS cycle. We even confidently predicted that WW would quickly become meta too. What a joke of an update.

Now put WW in the hands of a bad player. If they can still 1vX and magically survive everything while killing people, then you can ring the alarm. If only good players can make it work in most situations, that means it take skill, which is the definition of balance.

Everyone is mad about everything that’s come out so far. “DK is broken!” “Pulse ganker is broken!” “WW is broken!” “Sorc is broken!” Except all these things exist at the same time, because that’s what all of these reworks are about. It’s no longer just subclassed Charm Wardens running the show. And there’s more coming with the rest of the class reworks.

So many people cried and screamed and complained about how bad WW is in PVP, and now that’s viable, people are demanding nerfs, lol.

Xarc · June 16

When DK was reworked, I started a thread asking for the DK to be rebalanced before we entered a phase where every new class rework would be unbalanced compared to the rest, I was politely told by everyone:

"Oh no, every class will be updated, you just have to be patient."

So: about ww, be patient

Usureki · June 16

Its so lovely to see that some peoples reasoning against that WW might be a bit overpowered is the following: tHeRe ArE oThEr OvErPoWeReD bUiLdS iN tEh GaMe, So No PrObLeM, rIgHt???

I love that both WW and DK received some love, it made both classes more exciting.

I hate that I stand little to zero chance against both. But I guess it is still a bit better that I can be butchered by pure classes and furries too, not just those subclasser monsters.

Wuuffyy · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

There is a reason I name-drop him and React in every WW thread. Pelican is currently one of the best WWs in the game (which is ironic because he doesn't main the class and has only played WW this update). React is also one of the better DKs in the game. Every duel between React and Pelican has been onesided, with Pelican easily putting React on the back bar for the majority of the duel. The only win condition for React is critting everything in his combo (which can deal 40k burst), yet that is STILL not enough damage because Pelican has 48k HP and 2 casts of his burst heal will restore him to full.

So if you struggle against DKs and other people, then I don't know what to tell you man. WW is objectively overtuned and just because people can't utilize it to its fullest potential doesn't mean it does not deserve a nerf. It does.

Did I say dying? I typically die to multiple individuals (let's not pretend like werewolf is unzergable... unless you're quite literally running a tank with no damage). DKs are still are threat and are also objectively strong as well.

If a handful of players are significantly better than others then there is a skill gap, meaning that despite the 1 bar format there is a room for skill expression. I know it isn't just build b/c Signet or even the meta builds in general aren't some trade secret.

It's funny to me that you mentioned this because I could have sworn you said that skill expression doesn't exist for werewolf and anyone could do what Pelican does. Most werewolf players I've come across have been pretty mid- even the high health ones.

hoangdz · June 16

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is the most broken class in the game and literally cannot die. It often requires coordinated attacks from at least 4 competent players to even hope of doing anything, and if the WW singles out even just 1 of them it's GG. I have been doing BGs all night and seeing good WWs completely dominate this PvP mode, often ignoring an entire team pounding on them while focusing on 1 person in that team until they secure the kill. In dueling, WWs outmatch everything we have seen right now, it's not even close. In Cyrodiil, packs of WW with 45-50k HP are borderline unkillable and it is so annoying having to deal with them. It's absolutely insane that this class is allowed to go live when people, including me, have given plenty of feedback about it during the PTS cycle. We even confidently predicted that WW would quickly become meta too. What a joke of an update.

Now put WW in the hands of a bad player. If they can still 1vX and magically survive everything while killing people, then you can ring the alarm.

By your logic nearly 99% of things in this game didn't deserve a nerf. If this is how you think balance changes should be based on, I can only hope that ZOS treads carefully.

Wuuffyy · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is the most broken class in the game and literally cannot die. It often requires coordinated attacks from at least 4 competent players to even hope of doing anything, and if the WW singles out even just 1 of them it's GG. I have been doing BGs all night and seeing good WWs completely dominate this PvP mode, often ignoring an entire team pounding on them while focusing on 1 person in that team until they secure the kill. In dueling, WWs outmatch everything we have seen right now, it's not even close. In Cyrodiil, packs of WW with 45-50k HP are borderline unkillable and it is so annoying having to deal with them. It's absolutely insane that this class is allowed to go live when people, including me, have given plenty of feedback about it during the PTS cycle. We even confidently predicted that WW would quickly become meta too. What a joke of an update.

Now put WW in the hands of a bad player. If they can still 1vX and magically survive everything while killing people, then you can ring the alarm.

By your logic nearly 99% of things in this game didn't deserve a nerf. If this is how you think balance changes should be based on, I can only hope that ZOS treads carefully.

Tell you what- we nerf DKs, class masteries, Jerall’s, proc sets, Signet and status effects, plus whatever else aggravates you (much longer and expanded list) and it’s a deal.

Mathius_Mordred · June 16

What a joke. In GH the other night I saw two werewolves all evening, and one of them was me. Not only that as a berserker it's damn near impossible to even stay in form long enough to kill someone. [snip] I love both, but WW berserker is not something you're gonna see in Cyro, pack leaders if anything, and not very often. When the whip is hitting for 25k a shot the WW looks tame, assuming it can even maintain form.
[edited for baiting]

hoangdz · June 16

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

[snip]

Bad bait. Stay on topic please
[edited to remove quote]

Usureki · June 16

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

I saw two werewolves all evening, and one of them was me. Not only that as a berserker it's damn near impossible to even stay in form long enough to kill someone.

Well I did 6 BGs today so far.

6 of them had WW.

6 out of 6 the team had more WW won.

My experience is similar since the launch of U50 every single Daedra-ridden day.

Any more questions? None from my side.

Nordstern · June 16

AScarlato wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

A good WW will 1v2 a DK and Sorc, it's not even close. The only reason you haven't seen way more WWs is because not many people want to play 1-bar builds, but that doesn't mean the spec isnt' busted.

I've actually seen a ton of WW.

Right now I see the most Sorcs and DKS. Some DKs whip for 17K on a spammable. Sorcs just Haunting/Streak/overload/crystal frag in a half second.

80% of WW i've seen are non-issues and the few good ones I've seen were problematic but still outdamaged by the equally skilled DKs and Sorcs in my experience.

I'm at the point where I'm surprised even see anyone playing characters that aren't Sorcs/DKs or WW that actually do well. It almost never happens .

WW just got reworked, so a lot of people jump on it. Ofc theres also casual players running it, but no good player will lose a 1v1 on ww against a non-ww-toon. You just cant die on ww if you dont fall asleep.
And saying DKs do 17k dmg on a spammable is also not true. Buffed whip is NOT a spammable..

BardokRedSnow · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

albertberku · June 16

I just dont understand why there was a need for literal 100% uptime 50m stealth detection on a single player.

There is already extreme Sentry set, and then 33% uptime detect pots that people just stack in groups all the time. Not even mentioning other stealth detection mechanics.

BardokRedSnow · June 16

albertberku wrote: »

I just dont understand why there was a need for literal 100% uptime 50m stealth detection on a single player.

There is already extreme Sentry set, and then 33% uptime detect pots that people just stack in groups all the time. Not even mentioning other stealth detection mechanics.

Same question, why does there need to be nearly 100 percent uptime for invisibility.

Personofsecrets · June 16

Arunei wrote: »

Unkillable players who can also do a decent amount of damage have been an issue since before WW.

All of such builds should.have their main vomponents banned, but this is 100% correct. If one isnt cheesing in ESO, they are just inferior and are going to die quickly.

hoangdz · June 16

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

BardokRedSnow · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

BardokRedSnow · June 16

albertberku wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

I just dont understand why there was a need for literal 100% uptime 50m stealth detection on a single player.

There is already extreme Sentry set, and then 33% uptime detect pots that people just stack in groups all the time. Not even mentioning other stealth detection mechanics.

Same question, why does there need to be nearly 100 percent uptime for invisibility.

I am going to really be happy that you 3 - 4 same skill issue commenters dont comment about everything in every single post about PvP with your negativity, turning everything to heated discussions. You make me regret it every time i post a single short comment once in a while in the forums.

What does your comment even mean? 100% uptime stealth detection means 0% invisibility uptime. So, basically pointing out that > 0% uptime invisibility would make more sense. Where does 100% invisibility uptime even come from? Like what?

Didnt answer the question, noted.

Tommy_The_Gun · June 16

React wrote: »

Yeah, what WW is capable of makes DK look tame in many aspects, which is saying something given how absurdly strong DK itself is. The health scaling aspects of the toolkit need to be completely removed if the damage is going to remain the way it is, and even that probably would not be enough to curb how disgustingly strong and efficient they are right now.

The main warden werewolf spec is the single most ridiculous build I have ever fought in ESO's history, and I've been playing since the beginning. There is no amount of skill which will allow you to win against a person using this setup, unless you're also playing a werewolf. You simply take such an obscene amount of damage that doing anything other than holding down block on an extreme tank or non stop kiting with high mobility means you instantly die. All at the hands of a player with 45-50k HP who is fully unkillable by one person... I just don't see how anyone can justify it.

Really hoping to see some adjustments to this in U51.

Tbh. I have no idea why they did not gave Warden Class Mastery passive same treatment as NB's Class Mastery passives. I mean, NB's "problematic ones" have battle spirit condition added. So they are weak in PvP.

hoangdz · June 16

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

ceruulean · June 17

Just play Vengeance, don't know why you're crying to ZOS about balance when they started developing a more balanced ruleset

BardokRedSnow · June 17

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

BardokRedSnow · June 17

ceruulean wrote: »

Just play Vengeance, don't know why you're crying to ZOS about balance when they started developing a more balanced ruleset

PvPers dont wanna play your casual slop game mode, I was told it was popular so you dont need us anyways.

Luneca · June 17

ceruulean wrote: »

Just play Vengeance, don't know why you're crying to ZOS about balance when they started developing a more balanced ruleset

Vengeance still isn't balanced, and one campaign isn't all of PvP. At least hopefully that won't be the future.

Also the greater issue with balance is that it's not just poor in PvP, it's poor across the board for various reasons.

Two classes that are poorly balanced right now, templar and necro, are bad in PvP, sure. But the core issue lies with their skill lines and that they lack even a basic buff like major savagery with reliable uptime.

When this is the case, and ZOS releases things like werewolf with high uptime on buffs just tossed around, how can anyone not call attention to how poorly balanced the game is?

There needs to be some semblance of consistency with the changes they are making, otherwise there's no reason to have other options even exist if it's just an inferior variation of the same thing.

And we can find many examples of why werewolf isn't balanced. I just came out of anesthesia and I can think of them off the top of my head with little difficulty. There is no way people playing the contrarian right now don't know what's wrong with the "class" of werewolf, they just simply don't want their power taken away.

I said it in another post, but the game is not in a competitive state right now. That's a fact. What's happening in PvP spaces isn't really PvP; it's just a poor imiation of it.

hoangdz · June 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have 45k health and 28k resist and I’m being hit by 14k whips. Mind you that DK has 2-3 other burst moves and infinite bi-sustain through ‘core of flame’ by yea… “nerf werewolf” as a whole because OP, React, and Pelican never stop making threads for same topic xD.

People are still sustaining forever against me outside of robots because of course in Cyro/outside of the PvErs that queue in BGs- the opposing heals as always are simply unreal. IF I can catch someone in a 1 v 1 then they can still easily stand toe to toe with most mastery specs built correctly and/or DK Ardent Flame.

How are you dying to DKs on a 45k HP WW? I have yet to see a DK consistently beat Pelican.

Here's y'alls problem. Everyone aint Pelican lol, not everyone plays like pelican and even after his recent WW drop people arent all built like Pelican and even when they are they still ain't him. I've fought werewolves using his same suggested setups including gorethief and serpents disdain or savage werewolf with different variations inbetween. They're strong 1v1 yea but group content is where they fall beneath DK. Most of the time 1v1 werewolves run away as soon as i pop corrosive and fossilize, and when they dont if they dont die i can stall them out, theyre very single target based and thats a big weakness.

Pelican is damn good. Your average werewolf enjoyer is not, I tanked a group of them from dc a day ago on a normal brawler dk build till they got bombed trying to zerg me down. Its the same with DK, everyone was talking about how op they were and most of the people who switched to dk and realized it was harder than they thought like explanicide went immediately to pulse ganking cheese with shattered paths signet.

I said this before, you cant base everything on your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts and come here begging for nerfs based on that. No pvp mode is based around 1v1s which is why people slip on a duel build to 1v1 in rather than use their bgs or cyrodiil builds instead.

Dk and hard shouldn’t ever be in the same sentence post rework.

Sounds nice for a gotcha and yet I see plenty of amateur dk running around trying to play like the 1vXers and failing

Same as I see WWs running around in Pelicans suggested builds, and playing nothing like Pelican.

I’ve seen stamsorcs running my Onslaught nuker build and they play no where near my level. I've also seen sweaty DKs pulling off 1vXs easily while average ones struggle to kill a 1v3. That doesn't mean my build or DK aren't busted lol.

Yes, it's called a skill gap, and just because bad players don't do well doesn't mean something isn't overperforming. Balance changes should always be done around top players who have perfected their mechanics and know the ins and outs of PvP.

Why

The top players are not even 1 percent of the population, and the few who actually are top players arent causing nearly the problems you think they are outside of stormhaven. They are dueling and 1vXing, in the grand scheme of things thats not even close to affecting the general population of players, and they almost never do anything objective based. Thats all the pvp content besides deathmatch in bgs.

You want pvp to revolve around your echochamber but it doesn't, so instead of trying to ruin the fun, why dont you let skilled players eat a bit until Zos is finished cooking, instead of making a new thread about a new feature needing to be nerfed as soon as said feature drops.

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

Sure, but first, let's address this problem. In 2 of your posts you said this:

"your clique of 1v1 enthusiasts",
" your echochamber"

First of all, I, React, Pelican, and many others have played Cyrodiil on multiple characters and done 1vX, smallscale, and largescale PvP. I personally also play BG a lot and the BG community knows me pretty well. So no, we are not a "clique of 1v1 enthusiasts". We are simply good players.

Second of all, the term "echochamber" means "a phenomenon in which an individual's beliefs and views are reinforced by exposure to information that aligns with their preexisting opinions." This is factually wrong, considering the fact that most of us have done OUR OWN testings on the PTS and came to the same conclusion. If I say WW is busted and Pelican says it isn't, we will not hesitate to try proving each other wrong. In fact, React has openly disagreed with me both in our discord and on the forums when I made several threads asking for Heart of Flame to be nerfed. That is NOT an echochamber whatsoever. Meanwhile, the forums resembles an echochamber more than what you're trying to paint us as. I have seen multiple people band together to argue against me while providing zero tangible evidence to support their claims.

Back to your main argument. Why balance around the top players?

It's simple. You balance around the ceiling because at that level, only class/build balance affects the outcome. If 2 players have perfected their mechanics and know each other's combo by heart, then the only winning factor in that fight is whoever plays a better class/build. Both React and Pelican are extremely good players and are probably on par with each other. If you put both of them on a DK build, they will stalemate for a long time until 1 of them makes a mistake or lags out. But if you put 1 of them on a WW, then the outcome heavily favors the one with the WW. If you try to buff a class in favor of average players, sure they'll perform slightly better, but average players will still have a massive gap of PvP knowledge. Like, bad/average DKs are still failing to survive and sustain well in outnumbered PvP even with infinite sustain from Heart of Flame and survivability from Wings. They are still not timing their combo correctly and securing kills when their spammable can deal ~20k tooltip damage and their AoE burst can nuke 40k+ HP instantly. Like, do we just keep making them stronger so these players can finally secure kills reliably? This only serves to divide the veteran community into 2 fragments:

1) Those who chase the meta to stay competitive
2) Those who leave the game because they can't play their own class due to balance issues

Average players don't really notice this issue because it doesn't matter what class they play. They are still going to die or fail at getting kills. So why does it matter that we veteran players ask for balance changes if the outcome is the same for the average ones?

ceruulean · June 17

What's most balanced ruleset: CP, No CP, or Vengeance? And saying none of them are balanced is not a real answer, because I'm asking which is most balanced.

If you want to consider Vengeance a failure, then that means the current playerbase don't really appreciate or want balance. In general when it comes to pvp game design, the devs have to consider what's fun for the entire population. Low skilled players prefer more chaos and randomness (CP and gear is kind of one way to introduce randomness) to even the odds against high skill players, while high skill players prefer more balance and less chaos that could upset their chances at winning.

Hence threads like this tend to fall on deaf ears. Sure, ZOS is trying to balance the game since having certain classes or builds be strictly dominant and obviously the best choice is bad balancing and it will drive away build diversity and options, but I'm going to guess that the majority of the playerbase doesn't really care about balance. They care about winning.

hoangdz · June 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Zos said their goal is to bring everything up to subclass, something you keep ignoring. I will bet my account sorc will be the most broken rework of all and you can finally be happy.

U50 is the patch where most pure class builds are now on par with or better than subclassed builds. We will only see pure class builds dominate from now on, and I praise ZOS for achieving this very well. However, that doesn't mean these patches don't come with their own balance issues.

If Sorc is the most broken rework of all, I will still be on the forums calling for nerfs to my own class if there are aspects of it that break the game. I have done so in the past when Hardened Ward was overtuned, or when the triple proc-stacking stamsorc was dominating PvP. Like, I was literally arguing against the Sorc community while being a Sorc main myself.