What a joke of a balance update patch

hoangdz · June 15

WW is the most broken class in the game and literally cannot die. It often requires coordinated attacks from at least 4 competent players to even hope of doing anything, and if the WW singles out even just 1 of them it's GG. I have been doing BGs all night and seeing good WWs completely dominate this PvP mode, often ignoring an entire team pounding on them while focusing on 1 person in that team until they secure the kill. In dueling, WWs outmatch everything we have seen right now, it's not even close. In Cyrodiil, packs of WW with 45-50k HP are borderline unkillable and it is so annoying having to deal with them. It's absolutely insane that this class is allowed to go live when people, including me, have given plenty of feedback about it during the PTS cycle. We even confidently predicted that WW would quickly become meta too. What a joke of an update.

AScarlato · June 15

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

hoangdz · June 15

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

A good WW will 1v2 a DK and Sorc, it's not even close. The only reason you haven't seen way more WWs is because not many people want to play 1-bar builds, but that doesn't mean the spec isnt' busted.

AScarlato · June 15

hoangdz wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

A good WW will 1v2 a DK and Sorc, it's not even close. The only reason you haven't seen way more WWs is because not many people want to play 1-bar builds, but that doesn't mean the spec isnt' busted.

I've actually seen a ton of WW.

Right now I see the most Sorcs and DKS. Some DKs whip for 17K on a spammable. Sorcs just Haunting/Streak/overload/crystal frag in a half second.

80% of WW i've seen are non-issues and the few good ones I've seen were problematic but still outdamaged by the equally skilled DKs and Sorcs in my experience.

I'm at the point where I'm surprised even see anyone playing characters that aren't Sorcs/DKs or WW that actually do well. It almost never happens .

React · June 15

Yeah, what WW is capable of makes DK look tame in many aspects, which is saying something given how absurdly strong DK itself is. The health scaling aspects of the toolkit need to be completely removed if the damage is going to remain the way it is, and even that probably would not be enough to curb how disgustingly strong and efficient they are right now.

The main warden werewolf spec is the single most ridiculous build I have ever fought in ESO's history, and I've been playing since the beginning. There is no amount of skill which will allow you to win against a person using this setup, unless you're also playing a werewolf. You simply take such an obscene amount of damage that doing anything other than holding down block on an extreme tank or non stop kiting with high mobility means you instantly die. All at the hands of a player with 45-50k HP who is fully unkillable by one person... I just don't see how anyone can justify it.

Really hoping to see some adjustments to this in U51.

Wuuffyy · June 15

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

Don’t tell @React or @hoangdz - it doesn’t fit the ‘werewolf OP at all costs’ narrative they try to push on every thread. It doesn’t die, I’ll give them that. Outside of the signet meta build- I’m not just killing every single person (or even close, regardless of build lol) I run across in Cyro- guess I’ll just 1 v 1 forever and or focus on people sub-35k health as if either are realistic scenarios in any serious PvP content.

Mind you they simply don’t stop posting. Like ZOS, etc.- please recognize the agenda even if the thread picks up- thanks!

In 2 paragraphs (meshed together) OP mentioned said ‘WW’ 6 or more times. Meanwhile-

Arunei · June 15

Unkillable players who can also do a decent amount of damage have been an issue since before WW. First reworked DK was too OP for PvP, now WW is too OP for PvP. When Warden gets its rework it's going to be too OP for PvP, I guarantee it. Not saying things shouldn't be balanced but we see this with every big update that includes really big combat changes.

There's also the fact that we have people who are saying WW is too strong yet at the same time people who are saying it's useless in regards to PvP. Maybe, perhaps, perchance and potentially, something seeming too OP or not has more to do with difference experiences and not just whatever build is the meta? I mean it's been established for ages that you can give two people the exact same build but one of them be capable of doing better DPS/healing/tanking than the other.

Things being changed and balanced for PvP isn't bad inherently. What worries me is when people call for nerfs in PvP and then that thing that people say is too strong also gets nerfed into the ground for PvE so hard it winds up on the other side of the planet. Just like people calling for nerfs to WW because of things like unexpected Mastery Passive interactions or how Shattered Path works with it (and a couple of other things like Overload Sorc) when those aren't problems with WW itself.

Weesacs · June 15

Agreed. WW is a complete crutch. DK was OP after the rework however at least you could sub class and get some of that power.

Against a 45k WW, I'm literally not doing anything and they are melting groups of players.

There are so many DKs and WWs playing BGs atm they should have their own lobby, let the rest of us play more balanced games until all classes are up to par.

Luneca · June 15

The good news is that when people crutch too hard on something, they always fall on their flat on their faces when it disappears. I'll just keep firing siege until that day comes. And when it comes, I'll fire siege even harder.

Gabriel_H · June 15

It's like clockwork. Only earlier there was someone complaining about how bad WW now is: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/694099/werewolf-in-cyrodiil-is-useless-now

Wuuffyy · June 15

Gabriel_H wrote: »

It's like clockwork. Only earlier there was someone complaining about how bad WW now is: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/694099/werewolf-in-cyrodiil-is-useless-now

Anything reworked lol. Hope they don’t gut werewolf completely before Warden comes out (DK will ofc stay around the same)

AScarlato · June 15

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

It's like clockwork. Only earlier there was someone complaining about how bad WW now is: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/694099/werewolf-in-cyrodiil-is-useless-now

Anything reworked lol. Hope they don’t gut werewolf completely before Warden comes out (DK will ofc stay around the same)

I must be really blessed in BGs because out of the 100s of WW I saw during this event only 2 were strong lol.

Meanwhile I just roll my eyes at every DK whip.

Urzigurumash · June 15

Weesacs wrote: »

There are so many DKs and WWs playing BGs atm they should have their own lobby, let the rest of us play more balanced games until all classes are up to par.

This is the real solution, but since we know it's never going to happen best we can get is more broken items and skills that WW can't use and DK can't use well.

Pulsgegank still strong on PC? They're the true heroes of ESO.

Lord_Hev · June 15

Yes nerf WW. Whatever we do, don't nerf shattered signet, class mastery interactions with WW, and other outliers that enable it(meta lol).

AScarlato · June 15

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yes nerf WW. Whatever we do, don't nerf shattered signet, class mastery interactions with WW, and other outliers that enable it(meta lol).

How are people making SS OP? I keep reading this but having been using it I just lose form really fast. Especially if I end up burning for 30 seconds from DK and there is nothing around to generate ult.

Maybe it doesn't matter as I'm a NB and was told my WW is for PVE and Parsing lol

Lord_Hev · June 15

AScarlato wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yes nerf WW. Whatever we do, don't nerf shattered signet, class mastery interactions with WW, and other outliers that enable it(meta lol).

How are people making SS OP? I keep reading this but having been using it I just lose form really fast. Especially if I end up burning for 30 seconds from DK and there is nothing around to generate ult.

Maybe it doesn't matter as I'm a NB and was told my WW is for PVE and Parsing lol

WW doesn't "use ult" so the synergistic use on it is extreme. Very easy to use it to carry all your damage while sourcing everything into tankiness.(health)

As for overcoming the timidity, I don't really know as I haven't bothered playing it myself yet, shocking I know how could I even defend super op WW, omg. But the logic is so blatantly obvious, yet people want to beat around the bush and just target the symptom instead of the cause. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You mention you play NB, if you wanted to do this on your NB for example, you'd just use the NB mastery that generates ultimate on crits. Just with that you could maintain WW for infinity into infinitium in theoretical practice with some generous crit(you could get away with base 30% crit and still generate enough from hemorraging crits passively.) Not taking into account your actual offense rotation which will naturally land criticals.

Let me know when WWs are an overpowered game-breaking menace in torc of the last ayleid king builds, then I will agree WW refresh is the cause and not just a symptom.

Trier_Sero · June 16

Isn't that a normal day in pvp?

Arunei · June 16

AScarlato wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yes nerf WW. Whatever we do, don't nerf shattered signet, class mastery interactions with WW, and other outliers that enable it(meta lol).

How are people making SS OP? I keep reading this but having been using it I just lose form really fast. Especially if I end up burning for 30 seconds from DK and there is nothing around to generate ult.

Maybe it doesn't matter as I'm a NB and was told my WW is for PVE and Parsing lol

Pack Leader Morph is the secret for Shattered having a bad interaction with WW. Call of the Pack at Rank 2 decreases the Ult consumption by 16% base, 16% for yourself, and then 16% for every other WW OR Direwolf in the group, up to 80%. I'm assuming these are additive and if that's the case I believe that makes it a 64% reduction. And since it's 100 Ult I think it's just a flat conversion of 64% to 64 Ult? If my (precarious) math is right, that means it only costs a Pack Leader 36 Ult every 10 seconds to keep their form. It would make the Ult drain from Shattered Path trivial.

I don't quite trust my math tho so I'll remorph my Berserker to Pack Leader when I'm done doing some crafter stuff on my main account and see how it actually works lol. But this is why myself and others were saying Shattered Path shouldn't work with WW; on its own Pack Master's cost reduction isn't an issue, but when taking how Shattered works with Ult in general, that's where the problem comes from.

AScarlato · June 16

Thanks Hev and Aru for the info - appreciate it!

Arunei · June 16

So findings after test:

At 100-ish Ult, popping Pack Leader and standing there doing nothing = dropping Pack Leader after 10 seconds
However, at like 130-ish Ult, standing there doing nothing = not dropping Pack Leader until about 20 seconds.

That makes sense given the initial transformation costs 100 Ult up front, and it lines up with my math of Pack Leader knocking down the Ult cost to around 35 Ult, since I stayed in WW form twice as long at only an extra 30-ish Ult.

Also, after running around and only doing LA for about two minutes, I wound up gaining Ult with Pack Leader. After transforming with 100-ish Ult, it took about two minutes to get up to around 130 (and staying in constant combat as often as I could to prevent gaining Ult while not actively losing it in combat). She's a Khajiit NB and I thiiiiink I have Nocturnal Inspiration on her, which would help obviously if she does, and has Minor Heroism from Oaken.

Aaaaalso ahaha the Passive is actually Call of the Hunt, idk why I've been calling it Call of the Pack all this time.

SkillzMFG · June 16

PvP balance is a joke in general.

Almost every time I queue a battleground I get reminded why Vengeance is not that bad of an idea after all.

Elvenheart · June 16

Hasn’t anybody seen the Underworld movies? Werewolves are supposed to be this way!

Jeremy · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is the most broken class in the game and literally cannot die. It often requires coordinated attacks from at least 4 competent players to even hope of doing anything, and if the WW singles out even just 1 of them it's GG. I have been doing BGs all night and seeing good WWs completely dominate this PvP mode, often ignoring an entire team pounding on them while focusing on 1 person in that team until they secure the kill. In dueling, WWs outmatch everything we have seen right now, it's not even close. In Cyrodiil, packs of WW with 45-50k HP are borderline unkillable and it is so annoying having to deal with them. It's absolutely insane that this class is allowed to go live when people, including me, have given plenty of feedback about it during the PTS cycle. We even confidently predicted that WW would quickly become meta too. What a joke of an update.

That's typically how PvP works on this game. It jumps from one overpowered thing to another with everyone chasing the "meta". There is no consistent attempt at balance that I can see. And when there is some attention paid is it usually involves just deleting the build entirely or nerfing it so severely no one wants to play it anymore, thus wasting the player's time and effort.

That's one of the reasons I support this new vengeance thing. Build diversity, theory crafting and creating unique builds sounds great on paper. But what that translates to (at least on this game) is an endless cycle of meta chasing and nerfs that make PvP unbearable.

Orbital78 · June 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

It's like clockwork. Only earlier there was someone complaining about how bad WW now is: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/694099/werewolf-in-cyrodiil-is-useless-now

Anything reworked lol. Hope they don’t gut werewolf completely before Warden comes out (DK will ofc stay around the same)

Yes I have a feeling Warden is going to be a little "too" fun.

hoangdz · June 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

Don’t tell @React or @hoangdz - it doesn’t fit the ‘werewolf OP at all costs’ narrative they try to push on every thread. It doesn’t die, I’ll give them that. Outside of the signet meta build- I’m not just killing every single person (or even close, regardless of build lol) I run across in Cyro- guess I’ll just 1 v 1 forever and or focus on people sub-35k health as if either are realistic scenarios in any serious PvP content.

Mind you they simply don’t stop posting. Like ZOS, etc.- please recognize the agenda even if the thread picks up- thanks!

“I’m not just killing every single person”.

1) Just because WW doesn’t kill everyone doesn’t mean it’s not busted.
2) The only people a WW cannot kill are pure tanks or DPS builds heavily speccing into survivability. They won’t be able to kill WW either. Outside of that, WW mops 99% of the population.

The only people who think WW isn’t busted are WW mains. Outside of that, EVERYONE ELSE agrees it is in dire need of a nerf.

AScarlato · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

Don’t tell @React or @hoangdz - it doesn’t fit the ‘werewolf OP at all costs’ narrative they try to push on every thread. It doesn’t die, I’ll give them that. Outside of the signet meta build- I’m not just killing every single person (or even close, regardless of build lol) I run across in Cyro- guess I’ll just 1 v 1 forever and or focus on people sub-35k health as if either are realistic scenarios in any serious PvP content.

Mind you they simply don’t stop posting. Like ZOS, etc.- please recognize the agenda even if the thread picks up- thanks!

“I’m not just killing every single person”.

1) Just because WW doesn’t kill everyone doesn’t mean it’s not busted.
2) The only people a WW cannot kill are pure tanks or DPS builds heavily speccing into survivability. They won’t be able to kill WW either. Outside of that, WW mops 99% of the population.

The only people who think WW isn’t busted are WW mains. Outside of that, EVERYONE ELSE agrees it is in dire need of a nerf.

??? Isn't focusing down people with no survivability what EVERYONE does?

My WW sucks in PvP so I don't play him at all. I also don't main one in PVE either, I barely play it. But in my experience tanking is getting bursted down by DKS and Sorcs, like you said not WW, and it's DK and Sorc that have been what 70% of people play in BGs, maybe 25% WW because it's new, and 5% of all the other classes combined being fodder for said DK and Sorcs.

BardokRedSnow · June 16

Not a werewolf main, but do have a werewolf build on dk (not meta like sorc is), I use it for fun, love werewolf but love my dk more.

DK is still stronger than werewolf in pvp content, namely cyrodiil and bgs. You see more of them because its the new shiny, but overall DK groups are much stronger than werewolf ones. I was fighting the godzilla youtuber and his buddy, both werewolves, and they couldnt take me down as a dk. I saw them today in bgs again and they were on their dks. Probably for the same reason I was, the dk aoe damage and dots is much more useful when dealing with groups. Werewolves are great for 1v1 and xv1 though, as are dks lol. DK though is better for gvg by a mile, and 1vX.

Really I think what werewolf does is make mediocre players instantly much better, which tbh I dont really think is a problem- pure class normal builds will still be stronger once remade. I'm sure the next thread op makes saying something is broken will be warden.

Shattered paths signet was asked to be nerfed for pulse ganking and before that people, especially op, wanted heart of flame nerfed. Now its werewolf. We have a lot of op stuff people have access to, and that people should use. Yes I know werewolves are also using shattered paths signet, but hey, people are suddenly complaining about getting pulse ganked much less huh.

Wait n see before asking for things to be nerfed, Im tired of them nerfing things because people here on these forums overreact, meanwhile people are having fun in the actual game. Try it sometime.

And I hope you keep that same energy when sorc finally gets its rework lol im sure itll be godly.

Arunei · June 16

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I honestly have seen way more DKs and Sorcs dominating BGs than WW and I've been spamming the ball event.

They can't even pick up the ball though due to a bug.

Don’t tell @React or @hoangdz - it doesn’t fit the ‘werewolf OP at all costs’ narrative they try to push on every thread. It doesn’t die, I’ll give them that. Outside of the signet meta build- I’m not just killing every single person (or even close, regardless of build lol) I run across in Cyro- guess I’ll just 1 v 1 forever and or focus on people sub-35k health as if either are realistic scenarios in any serious PvP content.

Mind you they simply don’t stop posting. Like ZOS, etc.- please recognize the agenda even if the thread picks up- thanks!

“I’m not just killing every single person”.

1) Just because WW doesn’t kill everyone doesn’t mean it’s not busted.
2) The only people a WW cannot kill are pure tanks or DPS builds heavily speccing into survivability. They won’t be able to kill WW either. Outside of that, WW mops 99% of the population.

The only people who think WW isn’t busted are WW mains. Outside of that, EVERYONE ELSE agrees it is in dire need of a nerf.

Where's this everyone you speak of? I'm sure myself and many others would like to speak with them. Because a handful of people cannot speak for everyone, and we shouldn't act like they can.

People YOU know might think it needs a nerf, and hey, maybe it does for PvP (tho again I cannot stress enough that every time a new shiny thing comes along combat wise it's ALWAYS too OP for PvP so it's nothing new with WW). But trying to say the people YOU know, when that is a very small percent of the playerbase, thinks it needs a nerf = ""everyone"" thinking it needs a nerf is...silly. And so is trying to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree as a "WW main", too.

This whole thing was beaten to death over in the PTS, where a handful of Mastery Passives + Signet were doing a lot of damage with WW and it being lauded as a problem with WW itself rather than the unexpected interactions with it and certain Mastery Passives (admitted by ZOS) and how WW Ult works and how Signet interacts with THAT. And we saw that there were indeed builds that DIDN'T use those things that weren't doing as much. YOU posted one, the 6k damage one that was hardly the 10k and then 14k damage that more min-maxed builds were doing.

So again, maybe instead of asking ZOS to nerf WW, y'all should focus on asking them to look at what is ACTUALLY causing problems and adjust those? While this dev team is doing much better than those prior in not just smacking a sledgehammer into something to nerf it in PvE for PvP adjustments, that doesn't mean it can't still happen. And with WW having been awful for the last several YEARS, I'd much rather it not be given the Old Yellar treatment when other things are what need looking at.

IncultaWolf · June 16

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yes nerf WW. Whatever we do, don't nerf shattered signet, class mastery interactions with WW, and other outliers that enable it(meta lol).

Yeah nobody seems to be talking about what is actually enabling this. Sorcerer and Warden class masteries. Every werewolf that isn't running either of these gets killed. I've done at least 100 battlegrounds since the patch dropped and I've seen everything. Most of my lobbies are filled with majority pure dragonknights and sorcerers. Everytime I see an "unkillable" werewolf, they're almost always a sorc, sometimes warden.

You're forced to play packleader with 40k+ hp or you get nuked by dragonknights still able to hit 14k whips in no cp.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 16

Stop nerfing our characters over GH. All they want is more dps. They will do anything to say dps caps are bad. Its always going to be something. Every time, that same old song, "Nerf this, nerf that", One days its, "Warden Charm ruining PvP", then its "DK ruining PvP", then it's, "Pulse gankers ruining PvP". It never ends. The Class mastery passives are saving the game. There is more balance and variety we have had in over a year with the Arcanist laser show. Stop catering to the same people, its been going on for over a decade and its the reason PvP is so broken now.

Vaqual · June 16

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Stop nerfing our characters over GH. All they want is more dps. They will do anything to say dps caps are bad. Its always going to be something. Every time, that same old song, "Nerf this, nerf that", One days its, "Warden Charm ruining PvP", then its "DK ruining PvP", then it's, "Pulse gankers ruining PvP". It never ends. The Class mastery passives are saving the game. There is more balance and variety we have had in over a year with the Arcanist laser show. Stop catering to the same people, its been going on for over a decade and its the reason PvP is so broken now.

???