Overland Content Feedback Thread

SilverBride · June 13

No one is punishing vet players. And yea it is helpful for new players if others are willing to help them with world bosses, etc. so that is just one reason not to separate the player base. But we shouldn't be rewarding players that choose difficulty either because that is an optional choice they do not need to make. And they are far from the only ones helping others in zone.

spartaxoxo · June 13

It is punishing to vet players to not want them to have the same rewards that they'd get anywhere else and to want them to have less exp and coin than people playing on normal.

Getting less for doing more "because you dared to make a feature request," is punishment.

People want vet players punished for being willing to help but don't want it framed that way because they want to pretend that outcomes are irrelevant to whether or not a gameplay system is equal.

I want everyone getting to pick the apples. Y'all care more that everyone got an equal size box.

Actual equality would be there no real difference in the rewards because the value of those rewards are about equal when factoring in time spent. With rewards being equal value for the time spent, the only reason to chose one difficulty over another is your immersion.

If one version is far more rewarding the other, then people feel pressured to permanently engage in the difficulty version that they don't particularly enjoy.

Vets having an awful time leveling alts on hard creates pressure to level them on normal instead. Vets getting feted with extremely nice rewards creates pressure on casuals to level their alts on vet instead.

The reward argument works both ways. True equality is about the outcomes for the players not about technical details behind the hood of the game.

SilverBride · June 13

They asked for this. They claimed overland was too easy and boring and they wanted more immersion. I don't hear anyone talking about that now.

SilverBride · June 13

I will just end by saying I think this is one of the worst mistakes they made in a very long time. It is doing nothing but creating conflict and there are so many ways this can be manipulated. I hope it doesn't get worse moving forward..

spartaxoxo · June 13

Why would I talk about how overland is too easy when it's not anymore? I have a solution to that problem.

People used to complain about how everything lit by candles caused fires but now that we have lightbulbs, they don't complain about that anymore. Seems like fear of candle fires was never a real reason to prefer light bulbs.

Similar argument. A solved problem doesn't usually still get complaints.

Now that immersion issue has been solved there's still debates on rewards, player separation, and companions to be had. But there's no real reason to debate about immersion.

People are posting how happy the are playing on the higher difficulty when nobody is around. But some players find it meaningless when a player can come around and steam roll their enemy right away. While others don't mind because it is not happening that often. There are also concerns surrounding this around crossplay.

People are debating whether or not it's fair that it got the rewards that it did. With some feeling they are too much, some feeling they are just right, and some feeling it is not enough.

And some people want the companions nerfed while using it because they think it feels lame to have their companion be stronger than them while others don't want them nerfed either because they find that useful or because they play tanks and healers and actually like having a companion DPS to support while it does the heavy hitting.

Arunei · June 13

@spartaxoxo
The reason they didn't split the different settings into instances wasn't just because they wanted to keep the playerbase together. It was because they literally couldn't afford to make four separates instances for each setting for all Overland content and not have it negatively impact the game altogether, as stated in this post by Finn (which they REALLY need to make a sticky about).

Also, just because they said it's for "veteran players" doesn't make it Vet content. Vet players =/= vet content.

It was said over and over in this thread over the years that people just wanted the challenge for challenge's sake. That's why this option was introduced, because people had been asking for years to make Overland more engaging. NOT to get more rewards from a fully optional difficulty setting that can be changed at any time and only impacts the person who's using it, rather than the world around them.

No one is being punished for playing on a harder difficulty and not getting rewarded for it when the WHOLE POINT was to make the game harder. NOT to get extra rewards from that harder content. I've said before but it's weird to me that there are Dyes/a Title associated with this that were never even mentioned on the PTS afaik. But simple things like that I feel are fine. We don't need things like Houses, Mounts, Costumes, or things like that added to an entirely optional debuff that, again, doesn't alter the world around you any.

Also, we're already running into a very slippery slope regarding rewards for this as it is. There are already Dyes and a Title. How many more rewards do people need? There will always be people who don't feel the incentive is enough if the kind of rewards THEY want aren't included.

Plus there's already a thread explaining the easiest ways to get the Dyes/Title. So unless they make it so a group is always force set to whatever the highest difficulty in the group is, then adding rewards to Challenge Difficulty is just going to result in people complaining about others not actually "earning" things or whatever.

Deserrick · June 14

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Attorneyatlawl · June 14

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Deserrick · June 14

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Arunei wrote: »

The reason they didn't split the different settings into instances wasn't just because they wanted to keep the playerbase together. It was because they literally couldn't afford to make four separates instances for each setting for all Overland content and not have it negatively impact the game altogether, as stated in this post by Finn (which they REALLY need to make a sticky about).

Yes, that's what I meant about not being technologically possible. Neither "we wanted to make it a separate instance but couldn't because of the coding," and "they were willing to cooperate," are reasons to punish a player.

Also, just because they said it's for "veteran players" doesn't make it Vet content. Vet players =/= vet content.

Yes. That's exactly what means. Vet players are people who play vet content. And vet content is higher difficulty than normal.

It was said over and over in this thread over the years that people just wanted the challenge for challenge's sake.

Proven false multiple times.

You might be fine with us getting XP and dyes. But many people aren't and want even that taken away.

Without the rewards vet players would be locked out of the same experience as everyone else. Nobody else has to choose between rewards and gameplay functionality. And neither should people using challenge difficulty.

This whole conversation started because people were mad that someone said they were fine with the existing rewards. Small requests to make some of the people a little happier like the drops going from green to blue were also stated to be "wrong," because "we're asking for it."

Almost nobody was requesting to be treated as having their time valued less than casual players. Many said they wanted rewards from the very beginning. A lot of people are fine with things like no mounts or costumes. But I am opposed to things like no exp. That crosses the line from ensuring that casual players can get a good experience to active contempt for vet players time imo. It would be disrespectful to have it have nothing imo.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

BretonMage · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Let's say there's a good chance to drop green, a small chance to drop blue, and a super small chance to drop purple.

They could change that to a good chance to drop blue, a small chance to drop purple, and a super small chance to drop gold on Vestige

I think it would be fine to have a chance at purple gear on defeating a boss on challenge mode. While I think that the challenge itself was supposed to be the reward, I can also understand that if you had to spend a lot of time (aside from those "gaming" the system) killing a boss, you'd probably appreciate a chance at purple gear. Not so sure about gold gear, but there's already a chance for purple gear in overland treasure chests, so why not challenge difficulty.

As long as you're not getting something completely unique and otherwise unobtainable, I think it would be fair, and not feel exclusionary to the normal questers.

spartaxoxo · June 14

BretonMage wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Let's say there's a good chance to drop green, a small chance to drop blue, and a super small chance to drop purple.

They could change that to a good chance to drop blue, a small chance to drop purple, and a super small chance to drop gold on Vestige

I think it would be fine to have a chance at purple gear on defeating a boss on challenge mode. While I think that the challenge itself was supposed to be the reward, I can also understand that if you had to spend a lot of time (aside from those "gaming" the system) killing a boss, you'd probably appreciate a chance at purple gear. Not so sure about gold gear, but there's already a chance for purple gear in overland treasure chests, so why not challenge difficulty.

As long as you're not getting something completely unique and otherwise unobtainable, I think it would be fair, and not feel exclusionary to the normal questers.

Yeah, that basically how I feel about it. I don't need unique and otherwise unobtainable fancy cosmetics. I also really like that the devs made most of it available on seasoned difficulty and that the seasoned difficulty isn't so much harder than the normal. I think for most people they'll be able to get the dyes and stuff thanks to that.

Deserrick · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

BretonMage · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Let's say there's a good chance to drop green, a small chance to drop blue, and a super small chance to drop purple.

They could change that to a good chance to drop blue, a small chance to drop purple, and a super small chance to drop gold on Vestige

I think it would be fine to have a chance at purple gear on defeating a boss on challenge mode. While I think that the challenge itself was supposed to be the reward, I can also understand that if you had to spend a lot of time (aside from those "gaming" the system) killing a boss, you'd probably appreciate a chance at purple gear. Not so sure about gold gear, but there's already a chance for purple gear in overland treasure chests, so why not challenge difficulty.

As long as you're not getting something completely unique and otherwise unobtainable, I think it would be fair, and not feel exclusionary to the normal questers.

Yeah, that basically how I feel about it. I don't need unique and otherwise unobtainable fancy cosmetics. I also really like that the devs made most of it available on seasoned difficulty and that the seasoned difficulty isn't so much harder than the normal. I think for most people they'll be able to get the dyes and stuff thanks to that.

I just had a look at the achievements and I agree, it's great that the dyes are available to Seasoned players. It looks like I'll stay on seasoned for a while more, at least till I get the dyes.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

They do not because the person who isn't using challenge difficulty kills far faster so they get more exp. Adventurers can also take on more mobs at the same time to speed things up.

Deserrick · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

They do not because the person who isn't using challenge difficulty kills far faster so they get more exp. Adventurers can also take on more mobs at the same time to speed things up.

Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy is not killing far faster than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy. The one who takes 30 seconds because they are using challenge difficulty is getting more xp.

Arunei · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

The reason they didn't split the different settings into instances wasn't just because they wanted to keep the playerbase together. It was because they literally couldn't afford to make four separates instances for each setting for all Overland content and not have it negatively impact the game altogether, as stated in this post by Finn (which they REALLY need to make a sticky about).

Yes, that's what I meant about not being technologically possible. Neither "we wanted to make it a separate instance but couldn't because of the coding," and "they were willing to cooperate," are reasons to punish a player.
How is it punishing anyone? Especially if they can't do it because it would make the game run worse? So the entirety of Overland should run worse for everyone for the sake of people who want to take longer to kill Overland mobs?

Also, just because they said it's for "veteran players" doesn't make it Vet content. Vet players =/= vet content.

Yes. That's exactly what means. Vet players are people who play vet content. And vet content is higher difficulty than normal.
Uh...Vet content does not mean it's specifically for veteran players. It's simply harder content that ANYONE can do once they reach a certain level. And that level doesn't make them a veteran, especially now that people can super power level.

And vet players do not all do Vet content either. I'm one who doesn't. Just because the harder content has 'vet' in its name doesn't make it synonymous with vet players.

It was said over and over in this thread over the years that people just wanted the challenge for challenge's sake.

Proven false multiple times.

You might be fine with us getting XP and dyes. But many people aren't and want even that taken away.

Without the rewards vet players would be locked out of the same experience as everyone else. Nobody else has to choose between rewards and gameplay functionality. And neither should people using challenge difficulty.

This whole conversation started because people were mad that someone said they were fine with the existing rewards. Small requests to make some of the people a little happier like the drops going from green to blue were also stated to be "wrong," because "we're asking for it."

Almost nobody was requesting to be treated as having their time valued less than casual players. Many said they wanted rewards from the very beginning. A lot of people are fine with things like no mounts or costumes. But I am opposed to things like no exp. That crosses the line from ensuring that casual players can get a good experience to active contempt for vet players time imo. It would be disrespectful to have it have nothing imo.

Many people in this thread over the years 100% did say they didn't need to be enticed into harder content because the challenge itself was to be the reward. And it was brought up numerous times that people would likely start asking for rewards.

It isn't disrespectful at all for Challenge Difficulty not to offer additional rewards when what the main problem people have been saying for years is Overland is too easy and they want it to be engaging again. The problem was NOT that Overland didn't give enough rewards for doing it. Challenge Difficulty was made to resolve the first issue, that's the whole reason it exists.

Like I said, if someone feels their that the challenge on its own ISN'T reward enough, then they weren't the target audience. Also my points about slippery slope in regards to rewards wasn't addressed. WHY aren't the Dyes and Title enough? Why do more rewards need to be added? When will it be enough?

If purple Overland Gear drops (which I don't really care if it does, most stuff you get from Overland isn't great anyway and would only be good for deconning), what keeps people from saying Gold should drop? The more that gets added the more people are going to say "well if X was added then why not Y?" and then when stuff inevitably stops being added, there will be people complaining that the thing they want can't be obtained via a setting that was never meant to give serious rewards outside of the challenge itself.

For what it's worth I don't care that the Dyes and Title exist, and if more things get added I'm not going to really care about that either. I can do Seasoned without issue and it's easy enough to cheese the Title with a couple of friends, and anything else needing Master or Vestige would be the same. I'm not necessarily saying they shouldn't add stuff, my main point is that it just wasn't the purpose of adding the settings.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

They do not because the person who isn't using challenge difficulty kills far faster so they get more exp. Adventurers can also take on more mobs at the same time to speed things up.

Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy is not killing far faster than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy. The one who takes 30 seconds because they are using challenge difficulty is getting more xp.

It's impossible for the enemy to take the same amount of time. You do 80% reduced damage on Vestige. If it took me 30 seconds on Vestige, it would have taken me like 8 seconds on Adventurer. And the exp bonus doesn't offset that massive gap in time.

Deserrick · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

They do not because the person who isn't using challenge difficulty kills far faster so they get more exp. Adventurers can also take on more mobs at the same time to speed things up.

Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy is not killing far faster than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy. The one who takes 30 seconds because they are using challenge difficulty is getting more xp.

It's impossible for the enemy to take the same amount of time. You do 80% reduced damage on Vestige. If it took me 30 seconds on Vestige, it would have taken me like 8 seconds on Adventurer. And the exp bonus doesn't offset that massive gap in time.

It’s not impossible. Someone who is not using a meta build would take 30 seconds on Adventurer while your meta build takes 30 seconds on Vestige. Your 30 seconds is more rewarded than theirs.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

They do not because the person who isn't using challenge difficulty kills far faster so they get more exp. Adventurers can also take on more mobs at the same time to speed things up.

Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy is not killing far faster than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy. The one who takes 30 seconds because they are using challenge difficulty is getting more xp.

It's impossible for the enemy to take the same amount of time. You do 80% reduced damage on Vestige. If it took me 30 seconds on Vestige, it would have taken me like 8 seconds on Adventurer. And the exp bonus doesn't offset that massive gap in time.

It’s not impossible. Someone who is not using a meta build would take 30 seconds on Adventurer while your meta build takes 30 seconds on Vestige. Your 30 seconds is more rewarded than theirs.

That's a difference in personal skill not gameplay settings. If you compare two people of similar skill, the adventurer always wins. If you compare the same person using two different settings, the adventurer always wins. If you alter skill then only does the Vestige wins. Because it is skill, not the difficulty setting, producing that result.

You are conflating two different variables.

Deserrick · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

They do not because the person who isn't using challenge difficulty kills far faster so they get more exp. Adventurers can also take on more mobs at the same time to speed things up.

Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy is not killing far faster than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy. The one who takes 30 seconds because they are using challenge difficulty is getting more xp.

It's impossible for the enemy to take the same amount of time. You do 80% reduced damage on Vestige. If it took me 30 seconds on Vestige, it would have taken me like 8 seconds on Adventurer. And the exp bonus doesn't offset that massive gap in time.

It’s not impossible. Someone who is not using a meta build would take 30 seconds on Adventurer while your meta build takes 30 seconds on Vestige. Your 30 seconds is more rewarded than theirs.

That's a difference in personal skill, not gameplay settings. If you compare two people of similar skill, the adventurer always wins. You are conflating two different variables.

It’s not about skill, it’s about some character choices being weaker than others.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

Challenge difficulty is a self-imposed nerf. You can get the same result by changing your equipment and skills. There is no fundamental difference between the two choices.

Prior to challenge difficulty, players did not get extra rewards for being weaker; having no rewards for challenge difficulty would thus be consistency in game design and reward structure. Adding rewards to only one particular way of making your character weaker is a deviation.

Incorrect. Challenge difficulties still let you use builds, gear combos, and skill. Simply removing your gear removes the RPG part of the mmorpg. Stop being disingenuous. We're being punished on xp/hr due to the slower kill pacing (at minimum 5x time to kill not factoring in 7x damage taken and mob mechanics that fire that used to die before they happened). We only get double xp for all that. It is deeply slanted against people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

Challenge difficulties let you use fewer builds and gear combos than are viable without using challenge difficulties.

You’re not being punished. You are bringing your preferred builds down to the effectiveness of weaker builds, but you’re getting more xp than if you simply changed your build. This means it is deeply slanted in favor of people who want to use challenge difficulties in terms of rewards at the moment.

No. It's not. You get less xp even with the offsets.

Yes. It is. Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they used challenge difficulty gets more xp than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy because they’re not using a meta build.

They do not because the person who isn't using challenge difficulty kills far faster so they get more exp. Adventurers can also take on more mobs at the same time to speed things up.

Someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy is not killing far faster than someone who takes 30 seconds to kill an enemy. The one who takes 30 seconds because they are using challenge difficulty is getting more xp.

It's impossible for the enemy to take the same amount of time. You do 80% reduced damage on Vestige. If it took me 30 seconds on Vestige, it would have taken me like 8 seconds on Adventurer. And the exp bonus doesn't offset that massive gap in time.

It’s not impossible. Someone who is not using a meta build would take 30 seconds on Adventurer while your meta build takes 30 seconds on Vestige. Your 30 seconds is more rewarded than theirs.

That's a difference in personal skill, not gameplay settings. If you compare two people of similar skill, the adventurer always wins. You are conflating two different variables.

It’s not about skill, it’s about some character choices being weaker than others.

A gap like that is about skill. You don't hit meta DPS without being skilled. And even then 140k DPS on Vestige drops down to 28k DPS.

Much more reasonable comparison is the gap between an average dungeon runner, which we'll set at 30 to 40k because that's the number most widely reported in social media. And then 80k which is someone on the lower end of regular vet trials players. That's what a more standard vet trial level player is hitting.

At 80k DPS on Vestige that same person is hitting 16k.

Which means the average person is hitting twice as hard and can therefore kill twice as many mobs in the same time span. Which wouldn't you know it is what the Vestige exp modifier is set on. Guess we just figured out how they arrived at that number lol.

Uthermaerklos · June 15

I have been doing the main storyline with an alt set on Vestige. Challenging but fun. IMO purple gear for seasoned and gold for Master/Vestige. Gold multiple 10x for seasoned 100x for Master/Vestige. These are rewards anyone can get in other ways (crafting/vending/farming). A little bonus for the harder content. I do World Bosses on seasoned, cause master is a grind and virtually impossible in some of the newer zones. Overland/delves/incursions and PD I use Master (sometimes that is a stretch).I haven't tried any of the other zone story line and prologue quests yet-hopefully they will be doable, yet challenging on Vestige. I have played with no gear and with only found gear as well as limiting characters equipment and skills in many different ways-trying to make things more challenging. This is not that. Anyways I, among others, asked for it and I like it. Thanks for making the best MMORPG even better.

Arunei · June 15

Let me ask this:

Back before we had CD as an option, one of the common things people were told to do was go naked to make stuff harder. So let's say someone decided to remove all their gear, unmorph all their Skills and let's even say remove all their Passives, and unspec all their Attribute Points and CP. They've become essentially become a brand new character right out of character creation, just with more Skills than a brand new character would have.

Does it make sense to say this player should get higher rewards than someone who opted NOT to do all of that to make the game harder? Or would it just be recognized as someone imposing restrictions on themselves and not changing anything about the game itself such as mechanics, mob damage/health, or loot tables?

Like I said, I don't really care if rewards are added. If there's something I want I'll just poke some friends and we'll spend time working towards it. My point is still that the setting wasn't designed to give rewards and that it's also a little bit weird that it does considering it's a self-imposed debuff.

spartaxoxo · June 15

The setting was always asked to include small rewards and that is how most video games handle difficulty settings whether or not they debuff the player or buff the mobs. It was not the primary concern but it was always part of it.

Player generated content is different from officially released stuff. You cannot reasonably expect the developer to anticipate everything a player might do with the tools they're given and then reward that. You do expect official gameplay systems, which the challenge difficulty mode is, to be made properly. Any official gameplay mode should be balanced, fun, and rewarding.

So, to answer your question, no I don't see player generated content the same as official releases.

disky · June 15

Hey Devs, I finally got a chance to play with the challenge settings, and I just wanted to say thanks. The overland game finally feels like there's a challenge level commensurate with my expectations and personal taste. I play on a far-from-optimized build, and feeling as though I could stomp everything I come across in overland was super underwhelming, as if my choices made no real difference. Now, I actually have to think about what I'm doing, I have to pay more attention to what enemies are doing, I have to consider my build choices, I have to eat and use potions, I have to manage resources. Stealth matters more. Agility matters more. Preparation matters more. And it's all due to tweaking a few numbers, and giving players a few more choices.

Now, I can finally play this part of the game and feel like I'm achieving something. I really appreciate it.

Arunei · June 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The setting was always asked to include small rewards and that is how most video games handle difficulty settings whether or not they debuff the player or buff the mobs. It was not the primary concern but it was always part of it.

Player generated content is different from officially released stuff. You cannot reasonably expect the developer to anticipate everything a player might do with the tools they're given and then reward that. You do expect official gameplay systems, which the challenge difficulty mode is, to be made properly. Any official gameplay mode should be balanced, fun, and rewarding.

So, to answer your question, no I don't see player generated content the same as official releases.

But the thing is, they achieve the exact same thing.

Making your character essentially brand new means you're dealing less damage while taking more.
Bumping up your difficulty setting means you're dealing less damage while taking more.
Neither alter the mobs themselves, they don't give them more health or higher damage or add any new mechanics.

When an official release does the exact same thing as something players can do already, then how does it not stand to reason if former warrants rewards the latter would as well.

Plus if harder Overland can be compared to Vet Dungeons and Trials, then self-imposed nerfs can be seen as the same whether they're an official addition or just something a player does without touching that addition.

spartaxoxo · June 15

In overland, dungeons, arenas, and trials, you select your difficulty level. You get different rewards with different difficulty levels. How this is achieved on the backend doesn't matter as the player experience is mostly the same. Harder content takes more time and effort to defeat.

There is no reasonable way for a developer to know what someone's DPS will be based on a piece of gear they are wearing. This will depend not only on how they build the character but also their skill level. They could get around that by making a few particular sets with these modifiers but that wouldn't make any material difference to the fights themselves. What it would do is deny roleplay opportunities as people can keep their builds with a difficulty toggle, which is a major part of RPGs.

One is a difference in outcome because of player ability or lack thereof (not always by choice). The other is an official game mode.

Franchise408 · June 15

maximusrex45 wrote: »

I was extremely disappointed to learn today that ZOS has already started to go back on their promise to keep this as an optional system by adding achievements with reward like titles and dyes to it. And it's not already out and people are asking for even more rewards.

The game not being "too easy" is supposed to be the reward. The Gold and XP buffs are fair as they help to compensate for the increased time to kill.

And for those who want it easy, the story line and the relaxing experience is supposed to be the reward. It shouldn't matter to you if higher difficulties get certain meaningless rewards that you don't get, because you're playing to relax and enjoy the story.