Frumilu wrote: »

The non sense is that we cant opt out of low difficulty players ruining the opt in choice we made. Its griefing, intentional or not.

This claim is such a stretch you could circle the globe. This is not griefing in the slightest. Griefing is intentional point blank, if someone isn't actively trying to harass or interrupt what you're doing then it's not griefing.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Frumilu wrote: »

The non sense is that we cant opt out of low difficulty players ruining the opt in choice we made. Its griefing, intentional or not.

Just like the low difficulty players couldn't do anything about sweaty players killing their mobs before challenge difficulty. It's the circle of life.

It was never an issue before one Tamriel as we had progressively higher level zones . I think once a mob is hit by someone the mob should lock in at that player's difficulty until it dies. That would alleviate this issue.

The mobs do not change, the players get debuffs. We all are fighting the same mobs with the same pools of health. How would you lock a mob in this case?

Everyone who hits the mob does the same damage/takes the same damage as the first player to engage it. There are plenty of ways that could be implemented. It would be better than it is now without requiring multiple zone instances.

So an Adventurer hits a WB and locks it into that, they're slowly burning it and a Vestige player shows up. They can't make the WB any harder on their end so it dies within seconds, which then makes a Vestige player's setting pointless.

A Vestige player hits a WB and then some Adventurers show up and the Vestige player gets annoyed and stops attacking so the Adventurer players get absolutely slaughtered, with the hopes that the "easy-mode" players will leave since they can't do anything. It makes their choice to stay at the base difficulty pointless since they can't touch the Boss with it being scaled that much.

The whole reason the Difficulty setting affects the players and not the enemies is to prevent things like this from happening. Because as it stands now, I'm willing to bet it's not weaker players coming by and burning down whatever mobs just because they're on Adventurer setting. The average player doesn't do enough DPS to burn down WBs or Dolmens or whatever other Overland "group" things like that.

What's happening is you guys are seeing more experienced players who don't care to make the game harder just staying on Adventurer. People like me, who have 1.6k+ CP, solid Gold gear and Mythics and builds who know what we're doing. A number of people wanted more challenging Overland but a lot if us were/are content with base game difficulty and had/have no intentions of regularly playing at a higher setting, if at all.

It's been a busy week but I'm finally logging in. Heard great things about the challenge difficulty feature. Just bought a 365 day subscription to TESO+ and plan on purchasing 42,000 crowns during the next QuakeCon sale. I'm also bringing back friends who quit because of the lack of difficulty which was one of their only complaints.

See? I was a valuable customer after all, despite being told otherwise.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

The problem is that there is no way that overland should ever drop gold gear for anyone, especially since the reason for using difficulty in the first place is nothing but a personal preference. Overland is the story, not challenging content.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

End game content was created specifically for a challenge and to provide better rewards and gear sets. The enemies in dungeons and trials loot tables reflect the difficulty of these enemies, and these rewards are the same for everyone that engages in the content.

Overland difficulty does not change a single thing about overland or the enemies or their loot tables. It's a debuff only on the character that chooses to use it, to make it more difficult for just them. That would not have any effect on the loot tables.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

You can literally swipe your credit card and buy gold that buys the purple and gold overland gear in question so this argument holds less weight than ever.

Players are not supposed to buy gold as it is against the ToS.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

The associate game director also said challenging overland modes were their number one most requested feature. This system goes up not down. Clearly players want to engage in difficult overland content.

But they didn't give us more challenging overland modes. They gave different degrees of debuffs that only affect the player that uses them.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

And now those enemies are scaling at difficulty levels higher than what's offered in many veteran dungeons and trials.

The enemies are not scaling at all. The player is the one changing with different degrees of debuffs.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

The enemies are tuned for a higher difficulty than what's seen in most endgame veteran content.

This is veteran overland in all but name. It's as much endgame content as anything else, you're just arbitrarily labeling it something else to exclude it from existing reward structures.

No the enemies are NOT tuned for a higher difficulty. And no this is NOT veteran overland because there have not been any changes to any of the overland enemies at all. NONE.

The fights feel more difficult because of the debuffs, and this was the whole point of having difficulty modes in the first place. Players wanted to feel danger when playing in overland.

Rewards are not given based on how hard the individual player finds the fight. They are based on the actual difficulty of the enemy.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Tuning is synonymous with game balance, the methodology in how these challenge difficulty modes are achieved is irrelevant.

'The actual difficulty of the enemy' is numerically operating on a 600% damage multiplier and 20% player damage output. That fundamentally changes every encounter in the overland. That means chugging potions, dodging, blocking, bashing, paying attention to level geometry in a way I doubt any player on 'Adventurer difficulty' ever had to.

I can easily pull up a video of a naked, statless player getting mauled by a bear for a minute and a half without dying. With these difficulty modes applied, it would only take 15 seconds for that player to die and it would take 5x longer for them to kill that bear. That's not just some anecdote of 'how hard the player finds the fight'. It's raw numbers.

There is no material difference between that 600% debuff and ZOS buffing enemies up to CP170. The end result is the same. It's exponentially and numerically more challenging for the player. Mechanics that were easily ignored are now fundamental.

I agree with a lot of what you replied. Using difficulty, particularly Vestige, does make overland way more difficult for the player. So they decided to compensate the player choosing difficulty with a lot more experience and gold for their efforts.

What I don't agree with is that the methodology in how the challenge difficulty modes are achieved is irrelevant. Enemies have always had the same loot table for every player that fought them, no matter if they were a brand new level 3 or a CP 3600. The loot tables don't change based on how hard the fight is for the individual player.

We may never agree on that one point but that is one reason why a lot of us have a problem with greater rewards being given for those choosing difficulty.

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

We already got purple/epic quality equipment in Overland before update 50.
Overland does not give you a consistent quality of equipment, the quality is random.

So do you want a higher chance at purple equipment or do you simply want gold/legendary equipment to drop at all?
Not exactly about consistency since dungeons do not drop gold equipment and as far as i know only trials drop gold equipment, but only jewelry.

LunaFlora wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Once again putting this question forward after reading some of these other threads mocking users for wanting additional rewards: Veteran dungeons, arenas and trials have enhanced rewards.

Why would it be such a bad thing for Seasoned, Master and Vestige to have a chance at dropping purple/gold versions of overland gear? It's not even exclusive gear unlike perfected crap so what's the problem?

One side is asking for consistency in game design and reward structures, the other is asking for a deviation. More difficulty = more reward in every other aspect of the game but overland is the arbitrary line being drawn? Make it make sense.

For the record I'm fine with Vestige for now. Zenimax Online Studios has said this is a first pass at the feature, I hope they'll revisit the rewards at some point, especially once we get crossplay and the 'we can't split the playerbase!' argument no longer holds water as to why we can't have different phasing for the various overland modes.

We already got purple/epic quality equipment in Overland before update 50.
Overland does not give you a consistent quality of equipment, the quality is random.

So do you want a higher chance at purple equipment or do you simply want gold/legendary equipment to drop at all?
Not exactly about consistency since dungeons do not drop gold equipment and as far as i know only trials drop gold equipment, but only jewelry.

Let's say there's a good chance to drop green, a small chance to drop blue, and a super small chance to drop purple.

They could change that to a good chance to drop blue, a small chance to drop purple, and a super small chance to drop gold on Vestige

That would be more consistent because them it's just a single tier quality bump like in dungeons

I would not call blue gear a greater reward that people only join to farm.

I also don't see anything wrong with players being given incentives to try new stuff they wouldn't normally.

As long as it's not too rewarding so that they don't feel comfortable ever playing the way that they want.

The upcoming difficulty slider golden pursuit is a good example of stuff I'd like to see.

The lack of rewards aren't supposed to be attacks on vets so they can't farm or be rewarded. They are supposed to be about limiting pressure so people don't feel obligated to play on the higher difficulty.

Small things that do not create undue pressure should be okay.

It's how every other part of the game works. There's neat stuff you get for beating the quests on normal.

Vet dungeons give better rewards than normal dungeons. If you want an even harder fight, you can read the undaunted scroll/raise the challenge banner and opt into a harder fight for even greater rewards.

Vet trials give better rewards than normal trials. If you want an even harder fight, you can read the undaunted scroll/raise the challenge banner and opt into a harder fight for even greater rewards.

If you summon a companion during IA, you get removed from the solo leaderboard. Because those are additional rewards for players who engage with IA in the hardest way possible. Speaking of IA, as you continue to move up in arcs the enemy HP and damage grows. And as the enemy HP and damage grows you get even greater rewards.

In every single gameplay mode that is designed BY THE DEVS to make the experience harder, you get better rewards.

And yes, vets are being attacked. Anyone who uses a harder mode is a vet because that's what they called the harder difficulty modes for a long time.

It's an attack because the whole thing is to cheat vets overland players out of the same reward structure as everyone else in the game. And because of the blatantly false things being told by some to do it such as vet players never used to talk about rewards. As if we snuck around even though it is right there on page 1 people asking for it to come with rewards.

The whole reason that this was supposed to be a slider was so that we could help casuals. That's it. We should not be punished for being willing to help out new and casual players. Nobody should even want that.

The more I see these falsehoods being spread that we "all of sudden," want rewards the more I actually do want them to add mounts and the like. And before I was totally against it.

Dungeons and trials do not give the same rewards on normal and vet.

Vet dungeons are the only source of monster masks. Vet dungeons also drop purple gear. Vet trials are the only source of perfected gear and perfected gear is better than regular gear.

Overland was developed to provide difficulty. They say so right on the news article about it. Players don't get to decide the developers intentions. The intention behind the challenge difficulty slider, formerly called overland difficulty, was to provide a challenge to those who want it. And to maintain things as they are for those who don't.

That said, we are building Challenge Difficulty to be expandable in the future and layer with other existing systems to help reward players for taking on the challenge. For example, we could have Golden Pursuits with Challenge Difficulty-specific pursuits. If you complete those, you could get a specific tiered reward for your efforts. Expanding the rewards for Challenge Difficulty will be an ongoing discussion after launch, but we want to make sure you know why we are starting with experience and gold.

And yes, it does have to do with helping casuals (and new players and friends)

First, we are making a choice to make sure players are not separated by difficulty. We want to ensure you can engage with any player you want regardless of difficulty. To do this, the choice to opt-in or change your difficulty is up to you. If you like Overland the way it is, great! No change is needed. If you want it to be far more punishing, then opt-in to Vestige Difficulty. You can still play with friends, all while having the bump in challenge.

That's the main reason besides technology that it's not a separate instance. They didn't want to separate players so we could still play with and help each other.

Casual players wanting to see a populated zone that they could still get help in was the claimed reason for the feedback that it should not be a separate instance. I really believed this was a thing. Over the years I really believed and truly believed that players asked for this not as a way to saddle vet players with a lesser experience but because it was meant to help the health of the game by having us all play together.

And now it has nothing to do with it? Now it's just the reason that I shouldn't get the same stuff everyone else gets? Disappointing.

I think it's awful that they would even consider special Golden Pursuits etc. for a feature that so many of us don't even want. It's just another example of why I see this game on a very fast downward spiral.

I never said anything about veteran dungeons not having different gear than normal dungeons. What I said is that the loot tables are the same for all the players who defeat the same enemy on the same difficulty. So if a group runs any dungeon together, normal or veteran, the rewards they will get will be from the same loot table for everyone in the group.

That is NOT what I am saying.

OF COURSE a veteran dungeon boss will have a different loot table than the same dungeon boss on normal. But all the players fighting the same exact version of that boss will be rewared from that same particular boss's loot table.

The same holds true for Overland. The enemies in overland do not draw from separate loot tables for players using difficulty than those who aren't. The loot is determined by the enemy, not the player.