Where is the incentive to push Vestige?

Radiate77 · June 12

After running around questing with my partner for about 6 hours in-game total since this update, exclusively on Vestige, with great builds between us, I can say with 100% certainty that Vestige is not a rewarding enough experience.

To put it simply, the XP and gold payout do not equate the difficulty spike associated with them.

That said, there is a lot of potential here to add all kinds of achievements that reward cosmetics, like outfits, skill styles, adornments, titles, ect… for completing instanced quest content on Vestige, but two changes need to be made before that can happen.

Difficulty needs to be determined by your Party Lead, not individual to each player.
Quests need to be repeatable.

Getting to the point where you can be successful on Vestige, should feel incredible. Right now it doesn’t…

Gabriel_H · June 12

There is none. There isn't meant to be beyond personal preference.

Clarification: Vestige is the incentive and reward. It's entirely a sense of self-accomplishment.

Luneca · June 12

The goal of the changes was never to add a better incentive for you to grind, it was introduced as an easy to implement stop-gap solution for players that kept complaining about difficulty. That's why the "difficulty" is just relating to damage done and taken, and not actual enemies with more variation in behavior.

It's hard to believe otherwise, when the result speaks for itself.

Arunei · June 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

There is none. There isn't meant to be beyond personal preference.

Clarification: Vestige is the incentive and reward. It's entirely a sense of self-accomplishment.

This. Challenge Difficulty wasn't introduced for people to earn rewards from, because the challenge was meant to be the reward. The system was added for people who wanted Overland to feel threatening and engaging. Now it's very possible the Gold and Exp don't adjust well to how hard Vestige is, and that's something the devs should 100% be listening to feedback on.

But anything beyond the most base things like the Dyes shouldn't be added because the system was never meant to give rewards for taking part. The challenge is meant to be the reward and incentive. They've also already gone over why they can't and won't make instanced version for the different Difficulty settings:

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

So, to answer some questions on Challenge Difficulty and instancing combat. This is going to be a little bit technical to hopefully explain the limitations from that perspective.

Everything in the game has a "weight" to it. This includes monsters (very weight heavy), interactable objects (these very but can be weight heavy), etc. Weight is determined by how much information is stored in a given object. I mention this because we have formulas for how much "weight" we can attribute to a given zone or instance of a zone and that is based on the intended player cap. So, for instance, Overland zones generally have no weight restrictions because we expect a lot of players in those zones so the weight attributed to the zone is justified and won't adversely affect the server. It gets much more tricky in situations where we expect reduced players in a given zone. The most restrictive are solo instances or fight spaces. We have a lot of development tools we use to make sure we do not exceed weight capacities in these spaces so it should feel seamless to players.

Each zone is controlled on the backend by something that determines which of our servers will spin up which zones when new copies are needed. In Greymoor, we saw the effects of the zones being spun up were not correctly attributing weight. Trials would spin up on weight heavy controllers which would result in adverse conditions in any zone connected to that controller. Our engineers took great pains to reorganize the code in these controllers to make sure the zones were even and weight was correctly distributed.

I bring this up to highlight the technical aspects of how the game operates from a monster and zone perspective to further illustrate that spinning up new zones based on difficulty without weight concerns and attribution would be extremely detrimental to the entire game. Needing to essentially double all of the available zones in the game without regard to population and weight would mean the entire server would have some pretty major issues regardless of where you would be playing. Even in Delves and Public Dungeons, locations that were not created with these concerns in mind, would potentially be breaking for the server.

We want Challenge Difficulty to be a fun experience for players and, while most of the feedback is regarding the desire for us not to split players from a design standpoint, the technical concerns are most likely bigger than that. This is not said to dismiss feedback but more provide context.

Please DO keep providing feedback. We have some fixes in the works coming for CD. Mainly around the calculations we are making on the backend so that player damage is more in line with expectations but that is not exhaustive and we continue to monitor things. We are taking a look at the Master difficulty in particular as thats where I think most folks will find their groove and we want to make that as smooth as possible.

They've also already mentioned they're taking feedback about making quests repeatable (icr if it's something they're actively planning on right now), and nothing has been said about groups being set to whatever the highest setting someone in one is at. Since they can't do separate instances, that would really be the only way they could ensure people "earned" any rewards tied to Challenge Difficulty.

But I doubt they'd do that because again, the point of it isn't to be rewarded for doing it. The reward IS doing it.

code65536 · June 12

The fun of Vestige is the reward.

Radiate77 · June 12

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

Radiate77 · June 12

@Arunei you’ve got a lot to quote, so I’ll just tag you… instanced overland content already exists.

Most, if not all, end-bosses of zone storylines end with an instanced boss fight where no other players than groupmates are present.

Arunei · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

You can't compare the two, because the point of doing those activities IS to be rewarded. The rewards are incentives for engaging with that content.

Challenge Difficulty is NOT the same thing. The content itself is the incentive and the reward. That's how it was always meant to be from the start. So many people claimed that they only wanted to actually be engaged in Overland combat, they wanted to be challenged, they wanted to feel danger. That's the entire reason it was implemented. It wasn't content meant to give additional rewards beyond making things harder so people could feel that sense of danger and engagement.

Radiate77 · June 12

Arunei wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

You can't compare the two, because the point of doing those activities IS to be rewarded. The rewards are incentives for engaging with that content.

Challenge Difficulty is NOT the same thing. The content itself is the incentive and the reward. That's how it was always meant to be from the start.

You can DIRECTLY compare the two because they are both increased difficulty variants of the same activities. Regardless of introduced mechanics.

Arunei · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

You can't compare the two, because the point of doing those activities IS to be rewarded. The rewards are incentives for engaging with that content.

Challenge Difficulty is NOT the same thing. The content itself is the incentive and the reward. That's how it was always meant to be from the start.

You can DIRECTLY compare the two because they are both increased difficulty variants of the same activities. Regardless of introduced mechanics.

You really can't when the entire point of Challenge Difficulty was ONLY to make things harder, not to give a lot of unique rewards for participating in it. There's nothing to argue here. It wasn't content made to reward you for doing it like Dungeons, Trials, IA, and so on. Literally the entire point of doing it IS for the increased difficulty. Just because other content rewards you for doing it doesn't mean all content that gets added has to be the same way.

Challenge Difficulty is not meant to reward you for clearing things while doing it. The increase in challenge IS the reward and the incentive. That's how the content was designed, it doesn't matter how previous content was designed.

SilverBride · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

That is not an equivalent comparison.

Dungeons and Trials were developed to be challenging and to provide gear sets and other rewards for end game. Overland difficulty was requested for immersion and to make overland feel dangerous by some players that thought it was too easy.

It is not some special challenging content worthy of special rewards. The increased experience and gold is more than enough reward for getting what was asked for.

Taarente · June 12

Apparently the players asked for overland difficulty to be increased so that their overpowered builds would feel meaningful. It’s your choice to decide to turn a mudcrab into a trial boss. As has been said elsewhere, low level players or casual players don’t get better rewards for beating content they find difficult, so why should you?

Gabriel_H · June 12

code65536 wrote: »

The fun of Vestige is the reward.

The fun of Vestige is the dying with friends to mudcrabs!

Gabriel_H · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

You can't compare the two, because the point of doing those activities IS to be rewarded. The rewards are incentives for engaging with that content.

Challenge Difficulty is NOT the same thing. The content itself is the incentive and the reward. That's how it was always meant to be from the start.

You can DIRECTLY compare the two because they are both increased difficulty variants of the same activities. Regardless of introduced mechanics.

They are not both increased difficulty.

Hardmode dungeons are increased difficulty.
Vestige is a self-imposed nerf that makes things more difficult (and in some cases nigh impossible).

The former is specifically tuned, especially the newer content, with mechs that require precise co-ordination.
The latter is a sledgehammer that you can achieve the same result on just by taking off all weapons and armour.

Taarente · June 12

go get it vestige.

frogthroat · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

The Challenge Difficulty modes have achievements. Seasoned Slayer achievements. One for Vestige difficulty. And a few others.

So you are comparing apples to oranges.

The Challenge Difficulty achievements seem to be exactly what I expected. Add something since you should add some achievements with new content/mechanic/mode. But nothing too crazy since the mode itself is supposed to be the reward.

SerafinaWaterstar · June 12

Why the need for extra shinies?

I thought this was all about challenging yourself as a player? Not rewards?

(Knee this would happen. Some people are never satisfied.)

StackonClown · June 12

Luneca wrote: »

The goal of the changes was never to add a better incentive for you to grind, it was introduced as an easy to implement stop-gap solution for players that kept complaining about difficulty. That's why the "difficulty" is just relating to damage done and taken, and not actual enemies with more variation in behavior.

It's hard to believe otherwise, when the result speaks for itself.

So something for a very small vocal minority who will leave the game anyway ?

OsUfi · June 12

StackonClown wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

The goal of the changes was never to add a better incentive for you to grind, it was introduced as an easy to implement stop-gap solution for players that kept complaining about difficulty. That's why the "difficulty" is just relating to damage done and taken, and not actual enemies with more variation in behavior.

It's hard to believe otherwise, when the result speaks for itself.

So something for a very small vocal minority who will leave the game anyway ?

Given how long the easy difficulty mode has been an issue in ESO, I'd say it's far from a small minority that wanted some alternative to The Vestige Care Bare Adventure. I'm very happy with Master difficulty. I just want some resistance in my questing. The titles and dyes we get now are fine.

As for rewards for Vestige mode, eh, I don't need them, care about them, or want them. But I also don't really see any difference between rewards for higher difficulty overland and veteran dungeons. Also something in not interested in.

Starpulsechic · June 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fun of Vestige is the reward.

The fun of Vestige is the dying with friends to mudcrabs!

Vestige Mode gives the term Deadliest Catch a whole new meaning *pun intended* HAHAHAH

Muizer · June 12

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

I thought this was all about challenging yourself as a player? Not rewards?

It wasn't even about that. It was about adding some spice to the stories. To give some sense that you have to make an effort that is somewhat equivalent to the stakes and does some justice to the arsenal of abilities at the player's disposal.

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

(Knee this would happen. Some people are never satisfied.)

I was actually glad for once ZOS did not try to cater to the grinders and the reward chasers, but I suppose you're right we could not have expected them to not be offended by something added purely for fun.

Gabriel_H · June 12

Starpulsechic wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The fun of Vestige is the reward.

The fun of Vestige is the dying with friends to mudcrabs!

Vestige Mode gives the term Deadliest Catch a whole new meaning *pun intended* HAHAHAH

Da hell?! A 6-man group are you insane? You need a full raid team, noob!

Palumtra · June 12

No one is holding an inferno staff at you to play on Vestige tho.
From a practical standpoint you are right, the rewards for it are not so appealing but people wanted harder overland content not for the sake of rewards but for it to actually pose a challenge.

valenwood_vegan · June 12

I thought people have been demanding harder overland content because the overland parts of the game (especially quests) are so easy and boring that they've lost the desire to play.

So the reward should be that overland now presents a challenge and is enjoyable again.

I don't see why we would need to be showered with rewards for using the difficulty options, though I think some bonuses or incentives like they've provided so far are fine.

If the real issue is that people just want more earnable (ie: non-crown) rewards for playing the game, well I think that sentiment applies everywhere and is not unique to vestige difficulty, and the response should not be focused there.

New rewarding content and new experiences would be preferable to focusing on having players repeat decade old content all over again but now it's ultra hard mode - they now have the option to do this if they want to and that's wonderful, but others don't find much appeal in repeating the same old stuff again forever.

DoofusMax · June 12

If I'm hearing the OP correctly, "ZOS must not only provide higher difficulty because overland is too easy, but must also incentivize me to play at that higher difficulty because getting rid of the thing I was complaining about isn't enough." Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Kickimanjaro · June 12

I like it because it makes me play the game instead of skip the game. I only really play solo PvE or group PvP, so maybe I'm not a typical player, but I've had a lot of fun just running through public dungeons and stuff and actually having to play my character rather than having everything die immediately.

I've had a couple really cool experiences so far where I basically carried some new players through a public dungeon on my Werewolf tank in the Vestige difficulty. I loved it! I actually needed the help, and twice now people have spoken up to say how fun it was and added me. As a hermit, I don't know how I feel about making new friends but knowing that my enjoyment contributed to their enjoyment was nice. This wouldn't have happened without the challenge difficulty, in my opinion, and I welcome it for that even if it doesn't really give me anything except nerfing me below my companion.

Just running through these things solo I experience so much more of the content, like hearing NPCs cry out for help during the fights and stuff which I'd previously completely miss because the fight would be over in 1.5s.

All that rambling is to say that, in my limited experience, the gameplay has been incentive enough.

Alaztor91 · June 12

There isn't, that is why it's a one a done thing for me. I can get challenging content and rewards doing something else like a vet DLC HM Dungeon for example; why would I bother with Vestige again now that I have all the associated Achievements(minus Dynamic Encounter).

Kinda disappointed that the 5+years Overland Feedback thread ended up just being copy pasting Skyrim difficulty sliders, and since ZOS already pointed out why they won't do separate shards for separate difficulty tiers I don't expect this to change, because if rewards were actually decent players would just team up with someone on Adventurer to abuse it.

I agree with your idea about the instanced quest content though. I would love to replay some of the fights like Rada or Kaalgrontiid on higher difficulty tiers, and since they would be instanced there would be no way to cheese the encounters like in Overland so greater rewards would be expected(similar to something like a Normal Dungeon vs a Vet Dungeon).

tomofhyrule · June 12

From a friend:

Look, I just had an instance of the "oh so horrible" case where a player on adventurer came and helped me with a WB. And you know what?
I didn't care
It's a World boss, so anyone can come do it. Besides, the extra damage/heals from them and their Companion meant that one basegame WB didn't take like 10 minutes of being a damage sponge.

ZOS was eminently clear that they wanted this mode to be such that there was no pressure to use it for players, which means that beyond the achievements (and the upcoming Golden Pursuit), the difficulty is its own reward. If that is not compelling enough of a reward for you, you are not required to do it. Similarly, I do not find Tales of Tribute fun enough to justify the fact that it just doesn't drop those stupid fragments, so I don't play it. There are other things to do.
And if you want difficulty for the sake of difficulty, there are other games as well. That's what I do when I want something with an in-depth story, which ESO is also not able to deliver. I'll look elsewhere for that.

Athory · June 12

Incentive!? Bro, you need to think ahead of your own mind. You need to be a mastermind like the ones who thought of all this. You need to be a very, very smart person. I'm not saying you aren't—I'm saying you need to be even more brilliant. Like a divine mind!!!!

Incentive?! What else do you need as an incentive to avoid 80k DPS from a single hit when your character only has 22k health!? This is pure challenge!!! This is incentive as hell... this is brilliant!!!!

What else do you need as an incentive? To fight 8 enemies at once, while any one of them can one-shot you without breaking a sweat, while you have to manage all of that?! Go hybrid! Go DPS with a shield and healer skills. Bro... this is 100% incentive. This is 100% a masterclass. This is 100% so brilliant that only Zenimax could ever think of something like this.

What other incentive do you need?!? C'mon... this is amazing! This is brilliant.... This is Zenimax....

Radiate77 · June 12

What mental gymnastics did I wake up to?
Let’s not put words in people’s mouths now. 😁

This thread is feedback, not complaints, not whining, not attacking anyone, it is my honest criticism of the reward structure provided by Challenge Difficulty. My feedback is that the new slider does not adhere to the same risk-vs-reward structure that the rest of the game follows.

Saying that Challenge Slider was added just “for thrills” is a bold assumption, there are a plethora of reasons why this was needed, one such reason is that for over a decade we have had a push for a more rewarding game.

Rewards throughout Overland have been notoriously stingy, and while this has been remedied in the last few Chapters, we still have plenty of old zones that do not reward anything.

Let’s also keep in mind that Fin has said that the team is still working on the reward structure for this, and that the slider is a work in progress.

Instead of creating some weird narrative about people complaining (this thread is not that) why don’t you amazing constructive people come up with your own feedback regarding your own experience?

Gabriel_H · June 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

What mental gymnastics did I wake up to?
Let’s not put words in people’s mouths now. 😁

This thread is feedback, not complaints, not whining, not attacking anyone, it is my honest criticism of the reward structure provided by Challenge Difficulty. My feedback is that the new slider does not adhere to the same risk-vs-reward structure that the rest of the game follows.

Saying that Challenge Slider was added just “for thrills” is a bold assumption, there are a plethora of reasons why this was needed, one such reason is that for over a decade we have had a push for a more rewarding game.

Rewards throughout Overland have been notoriously stingy, and while this has been remedied in the last few Chapters, we still have plenty of old zones that do not reward anything.

Let’s also keep in mind that Fin has said that the team is still working on the reward structure for this, and that the slider is a work in progress.

Instead of creating some weird narrative about people complaining (this thread is not that) why don’t you amazing constructive people come up with your own feedback regarding your own experience?

The Challenge system isn't designed to be risk/reward. It's designed to be player choice on how hard they want to nerf themselves.

There can never be substantial rewards while the zones are mixed difficulty. ZOS intend to keep zones mixed.