Feel like it’s really the outlier masteries not so much werewolf. That said, I think werewolf should go back to taking 20-25% more poison damage then there would be a hard counter build available. They really need to look at counters to each class or subclass like WW/vamp. DKs should take extra frost damage, Wardens extra fire etc.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Whats funny, is that without shattered paths, These super OP Werewolves wouldnt be super OP as status effects are nearly 70% of the build. Not only dmg but a permanent uptime of force of nature which is what like 6k free pen? Thats a guesstimate btw.

Meanwhile, pelican is like 200-0, The best any other build can do is POSSIBLY stalemate him. Take the cheesiest build and try to kill it. We will wait.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Feel like it’s really the outlier masteries not so much werewolf. That said, I think werewolf should go back to taking 20-25% more poison damage then there would be a hard counter build available. They really need to look at counters to each class or subclass like WW/vamp. DKs should take extra frost damage, Wardens extra fire etc.

Honestly, if we think logically- what happens when these classes are reworked and the masteries toned down? Is ZOS going to suddenly come back and tone that done? I really don’t think you realize how much toxic ballista does from stealth with an additional seemingly multiplicative ‘buff’ especially since werewolf doesn’t have minor resolve for defense.

I know, because I played werewolf for YEARS before this patch and can vouch it is as cheesy as can be.

I have too.. oh what I’d do to have my long gone guildies do one more werewolf Wednesday.

And yea, it may seem cheesy but it would at least be a counter. And if you think about it, WW has a counter to that playstyle as well through Prowl. I think it would be really cool to see certain classes have strengths and weaknesses to other classes/weapons. And yea fighters guild yea yea yea, those skills aren’t great.

Also we really don’t know what they’ll do with masteries, will they tone them down? They’ve said it’s a work in progress but I don’t recall if they’ve stated the power level will inevitably decrease. I am a big fan of the theory behind the masteries, but they need to rework a lot of them.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

What does pelican have anything to do with it my experience with ww comes from playing the build i myself made and coming to that conclusion. If there is a drawback to ww i fail to see it so far, the build is absolutely busted and any one who is even remotely objective can see it. I've been grinding 4's with it and its by far the strongest thing i have ever played.

Incidentally, its also insanely fun to play. But again, acting like this is ok is doing yourself a disservice.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

What does pelican have anything to do with it my experience with ww comes from playing the build i myself made and coming to that conclusion. If there is a drawback to ww i fail to see it so far, the build is absolutely busted and any one who is even remotely objective can see it. I've been grinding 4's with it and its by far the strongest thing i have ever played.

Incidentally, its also insanely fun to play. But again, acting like this is ok is doing yourself a disservice.

Acting like werewolf is fundamentally any differently broken than DK or upcoming Warden is a borderline disservice. It’s also hilarious you mention werewolf and BGs because the last several months BGs has been and continues to be infested with DKs. Again, you keep saying ‘not objective’ but I am clearly being objective on my acknowledgement and suggestion for feedback on problem areas if you take time to read (you won’t though).

You just want me to say ‘werewolf needs blanket nerfs’ which is in fact you and your Pelican (the fact you use the same old talking points and know who I’m referring to tells me everything I need to know tbh) not being objective regarding proper balancing.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

Wait you thought i was talking about some one elses parse? No i parsed with the build i made and i did 104k, a friend later on also made the build after we dueled for a while and he also parsed 100k+. Its honestly not even something hard to do, i suck at parsing but even i can get it consistently.

You can ofc say oh no its not ww its signet or oh no its not ww its this class mastery or that class mastery but at the end of the day there is literally nothing stopping people from using those things so all you do is ... make excuses

These aren’t excuses. These are borderline oversights at this point. They excluded Feral Guardian for this reason. Werewolf is in the exact same boat as it’s a mix of guaranteed status effects, ult without an ult, etc. Since this 1 singular mythic already 1) has a similar rule for a different skill, 2) is so very far removed from any other gear that can be equipped despite taking up a single slot for werewolf, and 3) has little to no situation downsides unlike Huntsman or Selene’s it absolutely makes objective sense that it is an inappropriate outlier based on ZOS own rules at this point.

In other words, you remove Signet from the equation and top end parses are suddenly 25-35k lower overnight. That’s not a balanced set regarding werewolf.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

What does pelican have anything to do with it my experience with ww comes from playing the build i myself made and coming to that conclusion. If there is a drawback to ww i fail to see it so far, the build is absolutely busted and any one who is even remotely objective can see it. I've been grinding 4's with it and its by far the strongest thing i have ever played.

Incidentally, its also insanely fun to play. But again, acting like this is ok is doing yourself a disservice.

Acting like werewolf is fundamentally any differently broken than DK or upcoming Warden is a borderline disservice. It’s also hilarious you mention werewolf and BGs because the last several months BGs has been and continues to be infested with DKs. Again, you keep saying ‘not objective’ but I am clearly being objective on my acknowledgement and suggestion for feedback on problem areas if you take time to read (you won’t though).

You just want me to say ‘werewolf needs blanket nerfs’ which is in fact you and your Pelican (the fact you use the same old talking points and know who I’m referring to tells me everything I need to know tbh) not being objective regarding proper balancing.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

Wait you thought i was talking about some one elses parse? No i parsed with the build i made and i did 104k, a friend later on also made the build after we dueled for a while and he also parsed 100k+. Its honestly not even something hard to do, i suck at parsing but even i can get it consistently.

You can ofc say oh no its not ww its signet or oh no its not ww its this class mastery or that class mastery but at the end of the day there is literally nothing stopping people from using those things so all you do is ... make excuses

These aren’t excuses. These are borderline oversights at this point. They excluded Feral Guardian for this reason. Werewolf is in the exact same boat as it’s a mix of guaranteed status effects, ult without an ult, etc. Since this 1 singular mythic already 1) has a similar rule for a different skill, 2) is so very far removed from any other gear that can be equipped despite taking up a single slot for werewolf, and 3) has little to no situation downsides unlike Huntsman or Selene’s it absolutely makes objective sense that it is an inappropriate outlier based on ZOS own rules at this point.

In other words, you remove Signet from the equation and top end parses are suddenly 25-35k lower overnight. That’s not a balanced set regarding werewolf.

No i agree they need to rip the bandaid out and just say signet works like cryptcannon from now on but untill they do that ww damage is busted and even then it would need monitoring. Also my literal only 2 nerf suggestions were signet and 30% reduction on spammable because again a spammable healing for 8k non crit in pvp is absurd as again you well know. And no they dont need that heal added somewhere else, the survivability will be fine if we heal for 5k per spammable instead of 8k (which still would make it an insanely overloaded skill)

Its alright to say that the current state of ww is busted for pvp, you know it, i know it. Any one who plays ww knows it. Again, im fine if we keep this going for like 1 more month. Lets get it out of our system and enjoy ww being broken. But after that its gonna get stale. All i want is ww to be reasonably strong instead of again, doing 9k+ dps during duels while also healing for more than most peoples burst heal with each attack is not even remotely near where balance is.

I know i said this before but for some reason it seems like it needed repeating lol

Health based healing is a STILL a problem (as stacking is still potent) in PvP via this scenario (not to mention high-health stack absolutely becomes a requirement after a change like this) and a nerf that severe will make werewolf unviable again (in any other context) against any reworked class pumping out high-level damage. We don’t have vigor and claws is hardly healing for 2k every 2 seconds if that on 1 person plus very easy to miss (so not a substitute).

This is why myself and others have proposed they change claws and rip scaling to wep/spell in PvP so werewolf can still have a decent heal but it requires you to build for it like everyone else (so building wep/spell stam/mag like normal and not pen, health, etc. etc.) versus just health which serves as padding (pseudo tanky-ness) also.

For the majority of scenarios and especially the ones with 50k health this change should result in a net nerf while scaling from these values obviously.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

What does pelican have anything to do with it my experience with ww comes from playing the build i myself made and coming to that conclusion. If there is a drawback to ww i fail to see it so far, the build is absolutely busted and any one who is even remotely objective can see it. I've been grinding 4's with it and its by far the strongest thing i have ever played.

Incidentally, its also insanely fun to play. But again, acting like this is ok is doing yourself a disservice.

Acting like werewolf is fundamentally any differently broken than DK or upcoming Warden is a borderline disservice. It’s also hilarious you mention werewolf and BGs because the last several months BGs has been and continues to be infested with DKs. Again, you keep saying ‘not objective’ but I am clearly being objective on my acknowledgement and suggestion for feedback on problem areas if you take time to read (you won’t though).

You just want me to say ‘werewolf needs blanket nerfs’ which is in fact you and your Pelican (the fact you use the same old talking points and know who I’m referring to tells me everything I need to know tbh) not being objective regarding proper balancing.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

Wait you thought i was talking about some one elses parse? No i parsed with the build i made and i did 104k, a friend later on also made the build after we dueled for a while and he also parsed 100k+. Its honestly not even something hard to do, i suck at parsing but even i can get it consistently.

You can ofc say oh no its not ww its signet or oh no its not ww its this class mastery or that class mastery but at the end of the day there is literally nothing stopping people from using those things so all you do is ... make excuses

These aren’t excuses. These are borderline oversights at this point. They excluded Feral Guardian for this reason. Werewolf is in the exact same boat as it’s a mix of guaranteed status effects, ult without an ult, etc. Since this 1 singular mythic already 1) has a similar rule for a different skill, 2) is so very far removed from any other gear that can be equipped despite taking up a single slot for werewolf, and 3) has little to no situation downsides unlike Huntsman or Selene’s it absolutely makes objective sense that it is an inappropriate outlier based on ZOS own rules at this point.

In other words, you remove Signet from the equation and top end parses are suddenly 25-35k lower overnight. That’s not a balanced set regarding werewolf.

Also i 100% agree, hearth of flame needs a nerf, its a fundementally broken skill.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

More to my original point, you actually just don’t read or care about the outcome as I’ve mentioned- I wish to be on the side of the conversation that can just do this and ‘win’ the argument:

‘All I need is to run around and use my keywords-

100k, busted, overpowered, insane, Pelican, 8k, 9k, Burst (but it’s a dot build), etc.’

Almost forgot, ‘completely ignore other specs pulling similar numbers right now. Like crushing shock mastery warden pulling around 8k just spamming crushing shock in PvP- (complete tangent b/c I honestly just don’t really care any more- y’all are so funny with these ‘PvP parses’. Like any of y’all are remotely unbiased in any way and wouldn’t obfuscate your gear or your opponent’s resistance/reductions just to pull your preferred result to ‘prove your point’…

…just like React coming in here saying ‘werewolf pulling 10k, everyone else 5k page 2 or 3 of this thread when, of course, come to find out new mythics and class masteries are causing several other specs to perform similarly in these non-sensible ‘PvP parses’) -or ‘core of flame infinite bi-sustain with DK’. ‘As long as I just keep screaming about this thing, my broken thing stays safe and insulated from the scary werewolf’.

~~~

Honestly @acanca - I can see while y’all have fun doing this- it’s like a little witch hunt where you can never be ‘wrong’ or need context in any capacity. Life surely is good over there.

I’m sure your response to either this or my more serious reply above will net you citing 25% of what I mentioned if that and essentially ignoring anything said prior to this point. Can’t wait to repeat something I’ve already talked about just for you to scream ‘werewolf OP’ some more like I don’t have better things to do than argue with a brick wall.

Is this warden pvp spec in the room with us rn? I have a warden pvp build that can in theory do more damage than ww. Yet ill be honest i never even tried it out this patch and so far dont even need the feel to while ww exists that does at worst similar damage while having way better survivability and an insanely easier time to sustain. So far i have never encountered a warden build that could threaten or really stand up to ww in bgs or duels and the best they can do is try to survive. I do agree that the warden class mastery probably needs taking a look at to see if it needs the battle spirit adjustment but ill be honest. So far, havent seen it be an issue. Did you?

Also again, are you being serious when you defend ww with your life or do you know its broken just as well as the rest of us but feel like you need to defend it because you are a main and thats what mains do for some reason in this game

.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

What does pelican have anything to do with it my experience with ww comes from playing the build i myself made and coming to that conclusion. If there is a drawback to ww i fail to see it so far, the build is absolutely busted and any one who is even remotely objective can see it. I've been grinding 4's with it and its by far the strongest thing i have ever played.

Incidentally, its also insanely fun to play. But again, acting like this is ok is doing yourself a disservice.

Acting like werewolf is fundamentally any differently broken than DK or upcoming Warden is a borderline disservice. It’s also hilarious you mention werewolf and BGs because the last several months BGs has been and continues to be infested with DKs. Again, you keep saying ‘not objective’ but I am clearly being objective on my acknowledgement and suggestion for feedback on problem areas if you take time to read (you won’t though).

You just want me to say ‘werewolf needs blanket nerfs’ which is in fact you and your Pelican (the fact you use the same old talking points and know who I’m referring to tells me everything I need to know tbh) not being objective regarding proper balancing.

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.

GOOD. Core of flame trivializes sustain, Sorc Mastery trivializes sustain, and warden will too (I bet)! Yippe, there’s a pattern and we’re on it. Such a beaten down point it gets old.

Give me normal costs, core of flame, and 3/4 burst moves like current DK and watch me really fry people. Boom- explosions!!

Real talk, our dot durations are pitiful and our damage was nerfed in-kit from old werewolf to make way for all the random minors and majors provided. Nerf the outliers like Signet, and provide wep/spell scaling on at least bite and claws in PvP and go from there.

Wouldn’t even mind them moving some of the bite healing back into fortitude and rage that still has an associated and significant cost outside of fury (4k+ mag) so I have more agency in my healing also.

Not wanting to see werewolf sustain annihilated as warden gets infinite bi-stat from a new skill also- otherwise we’re right back to square one and what even was the point of doing anything aside from new animations- Thanks! : p

Hey now that the patch is out and we all played with this absolute meme of a build, how and why are you still arguing for ww?
I have done nothing but play warden ww and sorc ww since patch dropped and i think we can both accept that healing for 8k non crit with battle spirit active from your spammable that costs almost nothing is not ok, nor is doing 9k+ dps during duels.

I enjoy the build immensely but i prepared like 7-8 builds for this patch and the literal only thing i have played so far is ww cause it sure feels like there is little point in playing anything else.

Though to be fair in order to actually be effective with ww, you need to actually know how to build it. I havent actually seen any good wws so far but its just a matter of time till people stop doing meme 30k hp ww builds.

Once again you refute nothing I said. ‘Doing 8k on hit’ while both ignoring a lack of on demand healing and what I said which is that they could absolutely covert some of the healing back into fortitude/rage which has an associated cost.

If you’re not going to actually use any of the information in my quote, I’d go as far as to say don’t quote me so I’m not tagged for it.

Also-

Omg, ‘you have to know how to build something to be effective’- wowzers! Y’all ’nerf werewolf at all cost’ers really are smart!

Refute what? Its a fact that ww is busted atm for pvp. I do enjoy the build immensely but if we cant agree that there is a problem there can be no constructive conversation, just noise.

There is imo 2 way this can end. Either ww gets no access to class masteries in pvp and then we reevaluete how it performs. (imo best choice)

Or we do a more regular nerf to ww, the most reasonable of which would be imo, Signet doesnt work in ww form + Heal on spammable reduced by around 30%.

Its frankly unacceptable that i can have a spammable that strong that also heals for more than most peoples burst heals, atm its around 8k per cast non crit and with battle spirit active, this should be around 5k max.

Also the burst heal on a correctly built ww is around 10k non crit and with battle spirit active, you keep saying its weak its weak, no its not. Its pretty damn good. Specially considering it also restores a great deal of stam.

I know you also know how silly ww is atm but just to nail this in further, with 50k hp and with pvp cps, we can atm parse for 100k. Do you think thats objectively ok?

I’m not repeating myself and blanket nerfs are the worst option. If you want to see viable suggestions scroll up but I’m not dealing with a ‘new contender’ to the conversation who cannot be bothered to do this.

I and everyone else perceives DK as busted… yet here we are 6 months later. Your buzz word (~busted~) should have no power in regards to this fact, but I imagine that blanket calls for nerfs will be what werewolf gets so it in fact can be abysmal once again.

Much of what werewolf was given is akin to DK which is a ‘reworked spec’ (doing my best not to say ‘class’ even know werewolf behaves so very similar to one except that it’s one-bar)… anyone that actually can perceive this can easily understand that ‘infinite sustain’ is indeed the new baseline for the reworks as of the current standard.

—

Moving on, I never said werewolf wasn’t strong now but again for the 1,000,000th time, it’s absolutely not without its drawbacks. There are absolutely egregious fringe outliers setting the bar for werewolf when they simply shouldn’t exist (I.E. certain things should have been adjusted instead of us getting 1 and 6 second dot nerfs that alleviated nothing)

Also, here we go with ‘100k parse with 50k health nonsense (it’s nonsense as you drop the information but don’t bother to examine any further):

A) that health doesn’t make you a tank (there’s a reason that tanks do not just prioritize health in PvE and walk around with the same health values)… you will die to many, many mechanics if you do not properly block or roll)

B- A Feral Guardian esque nerf to Signet would easily bring that down to 80-85k right now as the next closest things in the BiS category are Huntsman and Selene’s which are significant decreases under Signet. In the parse video he’s literally running Signet and Disdain at a minimum if you needed proof for that value. Separately- Yes, I do think 80k-85k on a purse ST build without cap resistance or block mit stack is okay… especially given that 150k with cleave, utility, and a shield (Arc subclass) is the de facto meta.

—

*Love how it’s always the same exact person (Pelican) who creates all of these videos- on an off note can you get me some videos he made of around the time of DK PTS when it was at its absolute strongest???

I just wanna see ALL the concern from him on that matter where it just somehow didn’t get through and we ended up with this DK anyway (as in I want to see his concern for DK at the time of its rework since he’s so very concerned with balance and not just ‘nerf werewolf’)

Wait you thought i was talking about some one elses parse? No i parsed with the build i made and i did 104k, a friend later on also made the build after we dueled for a while and he also parsed 100k+. Its honestly not even something hard to do, i suck at parsing but even i can get it consistently.

You can ofc say oh no its not ww its signet or oh no its not ww its this class mastery or that class mastery but at the end of the day there is literally nothing stopping people from using those things so all you do is ... make excuses

These aren’t excuses. These are borderline oversights at this point. They excluded Feral Guardian for this reason. Werewolf is in the exact same boat as it’s a mix of guaranteed status effects, ult without an ult, etc. Since this 1 singular mythic already 1) has a similar rule for a different skill, 2) is so very far removed from any other gear that can be equipped despite taking up a single slot for werewolf, and 3) has little to no situation downsides unlike Huntsman or Selene’s it absolutely makes objective sense that it is an inappropriate outlier based on ZOS own rules at this point.

In other words, you remove Signet from the equation and top end parses are suddenly 25-35k lower overnight. That’s not a balanced set regarding werewolf.

Also i 100% agree, hearth of flame needs a nerf, its a fundementally broken skill.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

More to my original point, you actually just don’t read or care about the outcome as I’ve mentioned- I wish to be on the side of the conversation that can just do this and ‘win’ the argument:

‘All I need is to run around and use my keywords-

100k, busted, overpowered, insane, Pelican, 8k, 9k, Burst (but it’s a dot build), etc.’

Almost forgot, ‘completely ignore other specs pulling similar numbers right now. Like crushing shock mastery warden pulling around 8k just spamming crushing shock in PvP- (complete tangent b/c I honestly just don’t really care any more- y’all are so funny with these ‘PvP parses’. Like any of y’all are remotely unbiased in any way and wouldn’t obfuscate your gear or your opponent’s resistance/reductions just to pull your preferred result to ‘prove your point’…

…just like React coming in here saying ‘werewolf pulling 10k, everyone else 5k page 2 or 3 of this thread when, of course, come to find out new mythics and class masteries are causing several other specs to perform similarly in these non-sensible ‘PvP parses’) -or ‘core of flame infinite bi-sustain with DK’. ‘As long as I just keep screaming about this thing, my broken thing stays safe and insulated from the scary werewolf’.

~~~

Honestly @acanca - I can see while y’all have fun doing this- it’s like a little witch hunt where you can never be ‘wrong’ or need context in any capacity. Life surely is good over there.

I’m sure your response to either this or my more serious reply above will net you citing 25% of what I mentioned if that and essentially ignoring anything said prior to this point. Can’t wait to repeat something I’ve already talked about just for you to scream ‘werewolf OP’ some more like I don’t have better things to do than argue with a brick wall.

Is this warden pvp spec in the room with us rn? I have a warden pvp build that can in theory do more damage than ww. Yet ill be honest i never even tried it out this patch and so far dont even need the feel to while ww exists that does at worst similar damage while having way better survivability and an insanely easier time to sustain. So far i have never encountered a warden build that could threaten or really stand up to ww in bgs or duels and the best they can do is try to survive. I do agree that the warden class mastery probably needs taking a look at to see if it needs the battle spirit adjustment but ill be honest. So far, havent seen it be an issue. Did you?

Also again, are you being serious when you defend ww with your life or do you know its broken just as well as the rest of us but feel like you need to defend it because you are a main and thats what mains do for some reason in this game

How’d I know that you’d do the thing, haha. Funny thing person.

Edit: crushing shock builds with Signet+ Warden mastery are a major complaint- yurrr. In fact, anything that can utilize Signet is pushing boundaries- almost like it ‘allows more damage than ~ever before~

Maybe not as much sustain but definitely both burst potential and at range. Werewolf has no burst, at all, in kit. Please look and review as needed.

Ok a couple of things.

1st im not downplaying warden, i do have a signet crushing build for warden for this patch but i havent even tried it this patch because i consider it objectively inferior to its ww counterpart in all aspects.

2nd, all the wardens i have fought in 4s and all the wardens i dueled were literally a no issue. The best warden build i fought only managed to survive for a while before running out of either stam or mag and dying, their damage or burst was literally nothing that left an impact.

But ofc i gotta admit that that doesnt mean much because i also havent fought more than one or two decent ww so far so i dunno if wardens are just that much worse than ww or its just a case of people not having any clue how to build and not having a good build to copy at the start of the patch.

And 3rd, and why i think im done with this, i already told you that if warden passive that gives 1.6k weapon damage is out of line it should be adjusted. You already know where i stand on terms of balance, why would you ever think this was a gotcha moment?

I will be honest, this talk with you seems pretty circular where i expect sense and get this instead. e. Lets just both enjoy ww and leave it at that ...

Werewolf is incredibly strong if you run Signet and pair it with masteries.

1) Now, do that and then downgrade to no Signet with masteries.

2) Now, do that and then downgrade to no Signet and no masteries (so just 2 simple and objectively ‘broken’ things)

Do 1 or both of these and the difference is night and day.

Since your suggestion is to ‘blanket nerf werewolf healing by 30%’ (or rather if they did a change such as wep/spell damage scaling on rip and claws incentivizing damage stack for actually decent healing) you can actually somewhat emulate this with lower health so roughly 35-40k…

Now do that and go fight one of them 1 v 1 vat DKs… tell me how many you win. Is it even close? Does it actually feel fun being the werewolf in that situation? Do you feel like you are remotely close to them in power? You are welcome to let me know and of course it’s subjective but based on my own haphazard/unintentional testing there- I know the answer.

hoangdz wrote: »

@Wuuffyy

- Pyrebrand DK with Recursive Flame class mastery is doing upwards of 7k DPS, rivaling WW’s, but it doesn’t have 48k HP.
- Signet pulseblade is doing 40k burst combos from stealth, but it also doesn’t have 48k HP.
- Sorc is running around Cyrodiil throwing 14k frags, but it definitely doesn’t have 48k HP.

If any of these meta builds try 48k HP, they are guaranteed a damage loss. If any of these builds try to push 8k HPS, they are also losing offensive power. Meanwhile, we have:

- WW on Warden base class with 48k HP and enough DPS to push for 9k+, and enough HPS to survive a Pyrebrand DK with Recursive Flame.
- WW on Sorc base class with 48k HP and 8k+ HPS, while also doing respectable 5k DPS (enough to kill 99% of ppl).


Even if a WW isn’t Pelican or Yarcanine or whoever, you still have a 48k HP WW that can stay glued to yo arse while spamming abilities and light attacks to do free damage from stacking debuffs and status effects. If you nerf Signet, WW is still going to have 48k HP and access to other slightly less cancerous proc setups. If you nerf them too, they can still build full pen with Oakfather/TFS and use another high damage stat set to deal 5-6k DPS.

I mean, just look at the Overload + Crystal Wep + Crushing Wep for example. People complained that the combo was too strong, so ZOS nerfed the ability to stack both spammables. Guess what, people just replaced Crushing Wep with another ranged damage spammable instead and achieved exactly the same outcome. Sure you can’t force 3 skills to land with 1 Overload anymore, but if the outcome is the same, do we just nerf that spammable too? Or do we actually fix the root cause of the issue, which is the ability to stack multiple instances of damage from stealth?

In the case of WW, it’s literally WW. You can try to prevent the interaction of WW with current over performing sets or passives, but that doesn’t change the fact that WW has 3 great things going on for it:

1) Infinite sustain due to incredibly cheap skills (often costing under 1k stam, with a burst heal restoring 6-7k stam back per cast)
2) HP scaling heals on burst heal AND its spammable
3) 1 bar with skills that give important Major and Minor buffs, which normally require sourcing from specific skills (and often unfavorable). Like seriously, how are you going to argue that WW’s skills aren’t busted when they have access to these buffs:
- Major Protection & Minor Courage with Pack Leader transformation morph
- Major Sorcery/Brutality & Major Vitality with Hircine’s Fortitude
- Major Prophecy/Savagery & Major Courage with Ferocious Roar or Major Maim, Major Cowardice, Major Evasion, & Minor Protection with Deafening Roar
- Major Breach with Rip & Tear, in addition to an execute mechanic on the 2nd cast
- 15% chance to apply Sundered with Bloodclaws, which procs Minor Breach. Normal single target abilities have a 10% chance btw

With these advantages, a WW in a proper non-proc build would still survive extremely well and have enough damage to kill 99% of people. Literally.

Werewolf had access to many important buffs directly (such as minor courage, major breach, major protection, etc.) and indirectly via Sundered status effect + last patch oakensoul (of course hasn’t changed) which has ‘no downsides’ in werewolf (hence why it was meta even with the abysmal last state of werewolf that prompted this rework).

Even with all of these things and a 20% increase to the current tooltips (live had a lot more base damage in kit and even more so on the berserker dot by a lot) werewolf performance was abysmal in both PvE and PvP to the point that it was a ‘throw pick’ for roleplaying only in any serious content (in other words, any other spec just about could be made to perform better than pre-rework werewolf… so ultimately werewolf remained in a horrid and borderline unviable state).

Now I don’t see werewolf PvE ever becoming fully unviable again outside of a sweeping metrics change for PvE damage as a whole (unless you consider potentially getting dropped down to a potential 140k ST only with basically no cleave and little utility ‘unviable’ which I honestly do, I really don’t know what else to say here but again I imagine if we were to remove just Signet and masteries we end up in the 150k-160k range without any other nerfs)…

…but PvP minus the health, Signet, and masteries begins to feel pretty bad or same-y to prior live except now we have 1 and 6 second dots (I cannot explain to you how bad this feels on claws especially- or how difficult a 1 second dot would be to maintain if I didn’t have ridiculously high HPS with health-stack i.e. couldn’t consistently benefit from the ‘damage werewolf’ morph.

///

As mentioned many times before and is dated pretty early in PTS, I agree they should do something with the health scaling, I just disagree with the proposals listed here like:

-30% blanket nerf (but you’re still keeping the problematic health healing and it will likely be lowered again at some point… also fully incentivizes high health since this results in any ‘normal health build’ having its healing gutted back to unviable levels… quick reminder that our only on-demand heal/Fortitude received a 30% or so tooltip nerf from live) which doesn’t really work for reasons in parentheses.

-Scaling from stamina/mag exclusively which while this somewhat remediates health stack, it forces the already lowered wolf tooltips into stacking a resource/damage type that is wholly antiquated and provides little in return for its actual damage rendered for its trade-offs.

I also understand the vast majors and minors lean themselves towards anything outside of werewolf which is why I think they should remove the less commonly sourced once (like Major berserk) in favor of giving more of that damage and uptime back to the werewolf kit itself (which opens up more opportunities for me to build stats instead of procs/status effects/ the like).

I also am against them fully removing reasons for health stack/low stam costs (so ability to mix and match pots such as armor pots to supplement for minor resolve, etc.) as they seem unwilling to provide us the full range of weapon passives, minor resolve, and class passives needed to truly ‘be tanky’ and ‘mitigate through blocking’ at significantly lower health values… even then they seem adamant about relegating all ‘tank’ things to ‘tank morphs’ which unlike any 2 bar spec requires me to further trade further damage for.

danko355 wrote: »

I hate the rework.
Why do Werewolves always have to be either completely useless or overpowered, infinite-sustain, 40-50k HP tanky monsters?

Why does every patch need a “flavor of the season” build that dominates everything else and feels at least twice as strong as other classes? First it was DKs, now it’s Werewolves. I understand that classes are being rebalanced and updated one by one, but does that mean everyone else has to struggle and run like wet noodles until their turn finally comes?

Make the newly reworked class 10% stronger, fine. Even 20% stronger would be understandable. But this nonsense?

All I see in Cyrodiil and BGs now are Werewolves and DKs, howling and whipping people down, clearly having fun while everyone else either joins their ranks or becomes prey.

Because you’re in a ‘PvP mindset’. I hate to say it so bluntly but we have been but an afterthought for anything aside from a handful of very specific balance changes in quite a while.

If you think of it from the perspective of ‘well DK and werewolf (and classes that now have egregious masteries in PvP) were only capable of pulling 100k tops prior’, increasing their damage even with a bandaid to get them up by 40% to 140k makes sense.

Also, when their general consensus for PvE is that having to deal with sustain seems trivial/ sustain should be geared towards handling mechanics only (so blocking/rolling versus spending high costs per second doing a ‘rotation’) it makes sense to introduce ‘near infinite sustain’ outside of core combat moves like roll dodge.

People seem confused or feel that sentiment is completely being ignored for these changes and so I feel it pertinent to point these things out as it can help with understanding.

I imagine in time the ‘on monsters’ (as they recently fixed the equation for how these work if that’s any indicator) or the ‘under battle spirit’ adjustments (like the very harsh werewolf dot duration changes) are what will be used to haphazardly separate these environments without deep thought into true repercussions for PvP (which to me seems problematic but make of that what you will).

@hoangdz going back to earlier and more or less one thing I wanted to point out.

I have good reason not to ‘trust’ your, Pelican, or React’s DPS or a ‘PvP parse’. It will never give me the full story of what your opponent is doing or wearing and I don’t believe personally that this party is willing to present the proper info and ‘in good faith’ so when you say ‘8-9k dps’ or ‘down to 5-6k’ I don’t really want to lean heavily on what you’re saying (I mostly use y’all’s responses as ways to gauge problem areas that are logical).

Is this on a squishy? Is your opponent stacking proper CP? If anything, is your opponent even trying to block/roll to mitigate damage at any point?

I feel these are fair questions for CMXs on anything outside of PvE target dummy which is both stationary and has stagnant or rather non-dynamic values associated.

With that being said-

If you were to tell me (like has been said, not by you specifically) that warden with crushing shock spam can reach 8k dps and werewolf is 8-9k dps (albeit with high health and health based healing which again I agree is problematic and I do offer many suggestions for) it legitimately brings questions such as:

-what is going on with your opponent? These numbers out of context or on a stationary target don’t seem that insane. Sure, it may be able to be considered ‘high’ if your opponent has cap resistance after your pen and has major protection/minor protection/has minor main on you/2+ blue CP/is rolling and blocking when they’re suppose to/etc… but I legitimately do NOT know that is happening based of the CMX’s or even the videos.

-even then, if infallible and werewolf is capable of pulling an extra 1k dps even with high health than crushing shock spam; crushing shock is still ranged and offers burst were as werewolf does not have any in kit (everyone can run procs of course albeit werewolf again gets these stemmed due to poor major/minor design… of which I have also suggested werewolf get a ‘15% reduction to damage based procs in PvP’). Warden itself also offers purges, major expedition, minor resolve (generic) through vigor (this heal is nutty and I believe people take this for granted), minor protection (either frost armor or undo), major protection (generic) if running certain skills, HAS BURST in the form if at least beetles when not subclassed, and a bit more.

So please excuse me as I both believe the numbers could be demonstrated better and also don’t tell the full picture in regards to certain things (like if werewolf can continuously bite for high HPS but has much lower HPS ‘on demand’ than a normal spec I.E healing for when I have to peel) and potentially higher DPS than DK but I both continuously have to be on my target and have no burst whereas DK has 3 burst moves, etc.

Hello! This is my first post on forums lol. I just wanted to say a couple things as a player who has been playing werewolf in pvp for a long, long time. I really like the visual upgrade/overhaul of werewolf and the change in build diversity instead of only one or two builds that are actually good. Now, I can run whatever I want without having to run wretched or sustain food!! BUT werewolves need some adjustments in pvp, after playing it in u50 here are my thoughts. Sorry in advance for the long post.

The pounce ability is a good gap closer, but I feel like it’s starting to cause issues. For example, when sorcs streak away multiple times, I can easily run, hit pounce, and catch up each time they streak. I can spam pounce and catch almost anyone without running low at all on resources. I have even knocked people off mounts just spamming it, which being honest is a little rude. Increasing the cost of using Pounce to be like other gap closers would be a reasonable idea. Right now, there’s very little counterplay to escaping a werewolf and it is unfair for others.

Hircine’s Fortitude should return to only restoring stamina when at full health. Currently, I can block incoming burst damage and almost completely negate the cost of blocking by spamming my heal. I don’t think the stamina return should be removed, but I do think it should work like the previous version of Fortitude.

The Gnash ability and its morph effects should be swapped or adjusted. Rip and Tear is so overloaded that there’s little reason to run Bloody Gnash for execute scaling. The heal on Rip and Tear should either be removed, or the execute component should be removed from Rip and Tear and kept exclusive to Bloody Gnash. There have already been plenty of better suggestions for changes on the forums from more experienced players.

As far as werewolf ultimate morphs, Pack Leader is very strong in PvP. For Berserker, I think the ability to generate fury should be improved for this morph further. Berserker could even provide additional fury generation for other grouped ww (might be too op though but I think it would be ok as long as it didn't stack). Berserker needs something to make it better, I am unsure what, but the slight dmg increase is too minimal to give up all the good stuff Packleader offers.

Additionally, I think Rampage does far too much for a 20-second ultimate.
Essence Thief Set provides stamina, a small heal, and 10% increased damage done for 10 seconds. The Foresight CP reduces the cost of Magicka and Stamina healing abilities by 75% for 6 seconds after drinking a potion. Rampage effectively does all of this, but better, without requiring a set or CP slot. In my experience, I can stand in a group of enemies, activate Rampage, and spam a 10k heal with 40k + health, making myself nearly unkillable for 20 seconds with infinite sustain. Personally, I think Rampage should be reduced to 8–15 seconds to bring it more in line with ultimates like Corrosive or if the duration remains the same some things need to be removed/ adjusted from it. I think having movement speed and reduced cost is plenty. An idea could be that WW could keep movement speed and remove skill costs as the base Rampage effect, then move the increased damage to the Berserker morph so each WW morph has something special for Rampage. Berserker for more damage, Pack Leader for health recovery. I may be wrong, but I think Berserker doesn’t get any additional Rampage buffs like Pack Leader. Just an idea if the damage bonus has to stay, but I don’t think it’s needed.

TLDR: Werewolf rework is awesome BUT it definitely needs adjustments for PvP. Berserker wolf needs something to make it worthwhile over Packleader morph. This is my OPINION as an average cyro pvp ww. I have nothing else to say on this matter. This will be my only post. Also, if I got something wrong I apologize in advance. Thank you.

AShadyKhajiit wrote: »

As far as werewolf ultimate morphs, Pack Leader is very strong in PvP. For Berserker, I think the ability to generate fury should be improved for this morph further. Berserker could even provide additional fury generation for other grouped ww (might be too op though but I think it would be ok as long as it didn't stack). Berserker needs something to make it better, I am unsure what, but the slight dmg increase is too minimal to give up all the good stuff Packleader offers.

I've been using WW in some dragonstar arena runs (farming the lead at the end) and pack leader is just so much easier to maintain. The damage also isn't far behind anyway, making zerker feel pointless. With pack leader I will never fall out of WW form, but in zerker - even with using the WW cost reduction food on a sorcerer (-15% ult cost) - I still have to eat a few corpses and/or be mindful of combat otherwise I can fall out of WW form.

It's good to have a difference between the two morphs, but I don't think the way they current shape build decisions re: ult gen and staying in form is the way to do it. Ultimate being replaced by Fury also effectively removes a lot of sets from consideration - if it helps to generate ult, once you have perma-WW form (something that isn't a consideration for pack leader but is for zerker, even if only a little) anything that generates ult is useless.

I'm thoroughly enjoying the rework, but I wish the WW ult still consumed ult. I think ZOS missed an opportunity here to have the in-form ult cost be something like 50-70 ult (mayb even 100), equalize the ult consumption from staying in WW form, and have the ult be a very short version of the current ult (5-10 sec) + empower the next 1-3 skill uses. This would add in ult gen as a consideration for WW builds again, remove the whole weird ult cost difference between the morphs, and let WWs customize how much they wanted to invest in ult gen on top of the -100/10 sec to increase buff and skill empower uptime. Certainly not a perfect idea off the top of my head, of course, but after playing with it for a bit I'm not sure I vibe much with the whole Fury thing. I could really go for a big 'ol bite ultimate. Pressing a button for a generic buff (that doesn't seem to even have an animation?) doesn't do it for me.

It's hard to differentiate the two morphs further when one of the differences between them is just simple upkeep of the WW form, imo. Also, I'm miffed that pack leader gets 4k health regen on ult use while zerker gets nothing extra? Am I missing something here.

Udrath wrote: »

Please disable passives and class mastery for werewolf form, maybe compensate with another unique buff. This would help in the long run so classes are not nerfed because of werewolf.

The class you play shouldn’t have an impact while in werewolf form. I believe the only thing that should matter is gear, attributes, Mundus.

People shouldn’t have to play a certain class entirely for werewolf. Maybe give werewolves a unique Mundas stone for people dedicated.

Otherwise one of the best reworks so far!

I don't want class to be completely unimpactful on WW builds. At that point you might as well just make WW a class on its own, and at 5 skills + no bar swap + generic ult I'm not too fond of that idea. It's fun but would get old relatively quickly otherwise. I think part of what is needed to make WW complete is having a class under it - picking sorc for sorc reasons, dk for (presumably) extra durability passives, and so on. There are some janky, OP class masteries atm and I wouldn't want ZOS to knee-jerk block them entirely from working during WW just cause of that, plus the usual new OP mythic floating around that we're likely stuck with for a few patches. We also have a lot more class redesigns to go. I'm hoping that builds that involve swapping between base class and WW becomes more of a thing, instead of perma one or the other.