dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

None of the things that are making werewolf supposedly "OP" are inherent to Werewolf. It's either a mythic that's OP on anyone, or class masterys that are OP on those classes as well. You'll all find out soon enough.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Well guys the patch is live and the verdict is in. Looks like the werewolf mains were right.
WW has no survivability in open world, it has no damage, and needs serious buffs.

Oh wait

https://youtu.be/2U8hMAhYOpI?si=-jamdUPZtlRVOH8-

Luneca wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Well guys the patch is live and the verdict is in. Looks like the werewolf mains were right.
WW has no survivability in open world, it has no damage, and needs serious buffs.

Oh wait

https://youtu.be/2U8hMAhYOpI?si=-jamdUPZtlRVOH8-

If only that many people fired siege. Bet the outcome would have been different.

Luneca wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Well guys the patch is live and the verdict is in. Looks like the werewolf mains were right.
WW has no survivability in open world, it has no damage, and needs serious buffs.

Oh wait

https://youtu.be/2U8hMAhYOpI?si=-jamdUPZtlRVOH8-

If only that many people fired siege. Bet the outcome would have been different.

Heard they were too scared to leave their keep outer walls and set up siege where they could get hit back

Shame, point blank siege is the best. Esp. in a 1v1. EP really needs more siege users.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Well guys the patch is live and the verdict is in. Looks like the werewolf mains were right.
WW has no survivability in open world, it has no damage, and needs serious buffs.

Oh wait

https://youtu.be/2U8hMAhYOpI?si=-jamdUPZtlRVOH8-

Oh wait, it’s almost like no one doubted the cookie cutter would cookie cut to victory. Or that suggestions were provided by both players to prevent this outcome.

1 single day is all it took for @React to be back at it. Not saying all is fair and balance but maybe give people time to adjust given that wolf has been mediocre and a passing thought for a long time until now. This is a reworked ‘class’ and it is far more powerful now than the vast majority of available builds in the game just like DK is.

DK remains busted @React and all I ever see you do is praise this or provide cautious feedback. Please try and reel your hypocrisy in just a bit. People might actually be able to connect the dots and see the bias (oh wait).

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Oh wait, it’s almost like no one doubted the cookie cutter would cookie cut to victory. Or that suggestions were provided by both players to prevent this outcome.

~~~

1 single day is all it took for @React to be back at it. Not saying all is fair and balanced but maybe give people time to adjust given that wolf has been mediocre and a passing thought for a long time until now. This is a reworked ‘class’ and it is far more powerful now than the vast majority of available builds in the game just like DK is.

DK remains busted @React and all I ever see you do is praise this or provide cautious feedback. Please try and reel your hypocrisy in just a bit. People might actually be able to connect the dots and see the bias (oh wait).

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Oh wait, it’s almost like no one doubted the cookie cutter would cookie cut to victory. Or that suggestions were provided by both players to prevent this outcome.

~~~

1 single day is all it took for @React to be back at it. Not saying all is fair and balanced but maybe give people time to adjust given that wolf has been mediocre and a passing thought for a long time until now. This is a reworked ‘class’ and it is far more powerful now than the vast majority of available builds in the game just like DK is.

DK remains busted @React and all I ever see you do is praise this or provide cautious feedback. Please try and reel your hypocrisy in just a bit. People might actually be able to connect the dots and see the bias (oh wait).

Can you just try being objective for just one singular minute? 50k HP, 8-10k DPS, can face tank 5-10 people, never runs out of resources. Please, make it make sense.

I gave plenty of feedback about DK during it's PTS cycle. Advocated for nerfs to multiple things about it. My post history is public, you can go back and see.

Try justifying the above video to me without some "whataboutism" argument where you avoid the issue entirely and complain about DK or try to assassinate my character. This is the last response you will receive from me if you can't actually say something of substance about the topic at hand.

Luneca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@Luneca - your above quote spoiled from above->

Luneca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Oh wait, it’s almost like no one doubted the cookie cutter would cookie cut to victory. Or that suggestions were provided by both players to prevent this outcome.

~~~

1 single day is all it took for @React to be back at it. Not saying all is fair and balanced but maybe give people time to adjust given that wolf has been mediocre and a passing thought for a long time until now. This is a reworked ‘class’ and it is far more powerful now than the vast majority of available builds in the game just like DK is.

DK remains busted @React and all I ever see you do is praise this or provide cautious feedback. Please try and reel your hypocrisy in just a bit. People might actually be able to connect the dots and see the bias (oh wait).

Okay, let me not bring up siege even though I wiped out the werewolves with it...And let me add the non-siege experience.

Saw it on live and wasn't really impressed, seemed inferior to what I could do without WW to be honest. The only advantage it had was healing, sustain and running around a corner, but the damage was a joke and posed no real threat to me at any point in time. Then again, the builds that I use when not sieging or messing around aren't exactly fair in and of themselves so something keeping up with that is impressive to a degree, I guess. I did see other people die from the werewolves and group of them before I killed them.

I can understand the calls for the healing to be tuned down. The werewolves I saw never had to heavy attack, never had issues sustaining, never had an issue using a heal, negate did not stop them from surviving, etc. -- in other words they are able build in a way to skip core mechanics in the game and gain extreme power. That is a problem, at least if we pretend the game is balanced.

HP% healing should not be in the game at all IMO, because HP stacking already has no downside and it means you don't really have to invest to get high heals. This is a problem not just with werewolf, but everywhere an HP% heal is in the game, except dark cloak. If ZOS wants to go this direction with HP heals, we need a real downside that occurs when stacking hp or that power needs to be available to everyone with a scribed skill.

Also ZOS claiming that the heal on the other morph, Hircine's Rage, is less than Rushed Ceremony is laughable when WW itself, due to how the healing and sustain is working, can build far more stats than a templar ever could and get a much higher heal in reality than the templar would with Rushed Ceremony. That's before we get into the number of buffs are being kept up and additional actions and damage instances that can be taken v. the templar, then think about cost of it all. ZOS actually makes the case that it's not balanced with their own reference for balancing the skill. It's wild.

It's also pretty silly for someone to be able to run around in that form with nearly 100% uptime, where other transformations cannot be sustained the same way nor do they have the same advantages. The other transformations are justified in power because they are limited. When that limit is removed, why is it still so powerful? Though after the buffs to werewolf, what other transformation even competes?

Werewolf is a class arguments don't mean that there shouldn't be any realistic drawback. It's got tankiness, it's got healing, it's got damage that can wipe out a majority of Cyrodiil. Granted, I wouldn't say it's the best possible combination of those three things because subclassing and certain sets we cannot discuss here offer much more power, but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

And at least on those other builds that approach or have more power, you have to actually heavy attack or mind your resources better -- something apparently not really needed on werewolf right now, which is why werewolf builds will probably be #1 for tanking or causing a disruption, esp. if there's more than one of them.

Just on the healing alone it's a problem. Because to get that level of healing anywhere else, it's not possible to sustain it as easily to the point you never need to heavy attack or mind the resource pool. That alone needs to be looked at, just like others have pointed out in this discussion and others.

If everyone could achieve that same level of power, we wouldn't be here discussing werewolf, DK, warden and other obviously out of line builds. But the problem is that others cannot achieve that and the little things add up and eventually become an actual gulf in real combat scenarios unless you are a PvP god. But even then, winning in that situation is a hollow victory, esp. when the person can jut respawn and then you have to do the same exact lopsided fight over and over. Then there is the reality that more than one person can do the same thing or similar and it becomes a multiplicative issue, and balancing should consider the overall picture in my opinion vs. a limited scope.

The potential for this to be completely disrupting is much higher than DK IMO, because at least DKs, no matter how good they are or how strong are mortal and limited by the stat system in a way that they cannot do everything. That's why @React complains about DoTs because it is the bane of his DK build. The DKs still have to waste actions keeping buffs up.

Werewolf however, does not seem to have that limitation on live or weakness. The kit is so condensed that it's essentially automated buffing with no real downtime, and thus automated defense and offense to a degree. And who can compete with that? Builds that offer any kind of automation in ESO usually are the most powerful and require specific building with downsides.

You'd give up a 5 peice, helmet, mythic, skill line or something. Here you literally just transform and give up nothing. Of course it's going to become a problem. This is easily foreseeable by anyone that knows that battles are decided by three main things: buff uptime, # of actions possible to take or eliminate, and flexibility to adapt to a changing situation.

If even one of those things are alleviated, it usually costs a LOT in a build to do so. But here, again, werewolf is so condensed that this isn't costing anything in reality. I heal and I get sustain and a damage increase? I do damage and I heal? Etc. -- it's compressing actions that usually are not possible to do together or are limited in all other combat scenarios in the game.

And that makes it an outlier, and that type of outlier status eventually means that we can make it OP. Because instead of achieving only one of those three things, on werewolf it's easy to achieve at least two. Those saying it's OP are objectively correct when you consider the combat system as a whole and what's possible in any unit of time on non-werewolf builds.

But this comment is already long enough, let little 3 star me stop talking too much. I'll go back to firing siege.

Holy yap, as the kids say.

Just going to try and catch some of these points because I know if I miss one you’ll just come back and say ‘but you didn’t say this about this’.

-idk what you’re referring to about Siege here at the top. Are you talking about the video game, this is nothing like that- end of story ig

-werewolf is built around their new systems. Core of flame is literally bi stat (at least) sustain

-the build path/ health building (stam sustain) seems to be their way of allowing us to have core of flame sustain (not mag… mag sustain only from our ‘ult’) and allowing us to build that health to avoid the immense burst they are seemingly adding to every class- like 30-40k like god lord @React was caught utilizing above.

-I somewhat agree, health-based healing is incredibly problematic. I personally wouldn’t mind the scaling to be standard wep/spell values for PvP. Hircine’s rage is actually horrible at healing… I promise you that it does not equate to remotely as good of a burst heal as breath of life does after passives that only Templar/subclass plar has access to.

-werewolf has existed in the ‘semi-permanent state’ far before any of these other ult transformations have even existed. Necro Transform and Vampire lord (was a non transform bat swarm before) were created long after werewolf existing in this transformation state.

-werewolf is not the best at tanking. They don’t even have a pull in kit and sets require us to give up certain group buffs just for a gimmicky pull on a cooldown. We also do not have access to warhorn (so no major force for group outside of low uptime Arc class) and our ultimate used in form cannot be used to proc Major berserk for example from MA.

~~~

-going to save the ‘werewolf has everything with no drawbacks argument at the bottom… will likely avoid repeating myself if discussed above or below in this response

~~~

-we are discussing werewolf, DK, and class mastery classes as these are the new ‘standard’ for combat. No worries, your favorite spec WILL get its turn and be like these too.

Trying to upend this and somehow succeeding will cause either current class to underperform or will likely result in new reworks being a let down comparatively if we truly have them scramble to try and bring power to a subjective level… for PvP as we all know is wonderfully balanced even outside of these things.

-DK is majorly disruptive and is very much a potent competitor for reworked specs. Let me tell you that even testing with the meta cheese Signet wolf (ZOS please implode Signet akin to Feral Guardian ty) a DK is still capable of going toe to toe with wolf thanks to immense pressure, burst (0.o), and potentially infinite bi-stat sustain in one need and in-kit package (ooh, the reworked standard).

Speaking of disruptive, forget that DKs also have both a delayed stun and a root- we have no in-kit root.

-mixing this in, we have several things we spend a GCD for an essentially do not receive an immediate benefit for (I.e we used GCDs ‘for nothing’); Rampage (our ‘ult’) and the leap—> DOT version.

///

Last but not least as referenced above-

My memory is horrid but I’ll list important things that werewolf in-fact does not have:

-a purge

-an actual HoT of any kind (buff up at any point you need and see what the tooltip on a damage build’s vigor is… ooh also we have no minor resolve in kit- I forgot!)

-snare removal

-ANY burst in kit (literally review the skills if needed)

-limited access to weapon passives (no damage ones work at all)

-limited access to class passives

-1 back bar/front bar set (we cannot run a 5/5/2/1/1 setup like everyone else can)… in other words no 2 5 pc sets with a mythic AND a monster helm (ooooh, forgot Balorgh doesn’t really work for us either).

-any buff we do not have access to organically or cannot be sourced via a set (which usually means we give up stats, etc. to get them this way)

-we cannot properly activate many types of sets such as ‘use ult’ or ‘use poison’ (scavenging maw comes to mind here)

-it just keeps going on but these are things that the majority of classes/efficient subclasses have organic access to in-kit via some capacity

First, I was talking about tanking in a PvP context. There it is going to the best or at or near the top, only competition it will have are actual tank builds or ones that took so much investment in tanking (including subclassing) that they are still tank builds even if they are shooting out damage through various means (damage instance stacking).

See, you're looking at this with a bias. You seem to think what we're seeing on live is the end of the road for the builds that are possible. What I'm saying is that it's not. In fact, those builds I have seen and encountered aren't anywhere near what should be possible and seem to not be refined where they can exploit exactly what is given.

What you don't understand is that you can gain what you don't have by simply building for it. That's exactly why it's OP. You won't lose much by adjusting your build even though you'll claim that you do. You won't lose much because what you've gained is built into the werewolf system itself. It doesn't need an investment.

And before you say it, stacking HP is not a real investment when you can stack it so easily.

And you literally prove the point being made about the werewolf and automation mentioning DK snare and stun, even if we go with that there's a cost associated with that that in action and opportunity that isn't actually there for werewolf which is why even the DKs are transforming into werewolves. There's not doing it for fun, they're doing it because it's better than being a DK. You might disagree, and that's okay, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The drawbacks you list about 2 5 pieces and monster set and a mythic not being possible don't matter for a number of reasons, the biggest being that a monster set can be dropped, but also that the situation where you couldn't use 2 5 pieces and a mythic + helm isn't unique to werewolf and happens on builds other than werewolf. So it's not a valid argument to use that as a drawback. Most sets are not really usable front bar, back bar or efficient to do so in the first place. But we don't need to get into detail with that, because that then goes down the road of the build decisions .

Now let's address the purge argument. Werewolves don't have purge, wow. And yet, unlike DKs and everyone else, coldfire, DoTs, etc. are not killing them anywhere near as effectively as non-WW builds. You can't convince me otherwise when I sit and fire 4 coldfire sieges at a pack of WWs and they aren't dying despite "no purge" or external healing. That's literally the problem! They don't need purge, and it's because the healing is so powerful that it isn't needed.

Now, I don't know what direction ZOS is going with combat. But if they are going this direction, again, they need to introduce the same power in the scribing system so EVERYONE can have it. Then we won't need to discuss it further.

But we know that cannot be the solution. Because then we'll hear from people enjoying how powerful DK, WW, Warden is that they are no longer "unique" and that the game isn;t "fun" anymore. The same thing that happens every time when ZOS has tried to "equalize" or balance classes. Let's be honest here, those that don't want the outliers like WW nerfed or addressed do not want balance. And that's okay.

But if they're not going to balance it or anything else, can we stop pretending that it is balanced in the slightest when it's not? We don't need whataboutism to justify whether or not something is powerful or too strong.

Watch how simple this is: what other skills heal and do damage in the game? And we go down the list and do any of them other than these WW skills heal you for HP%, cost as little, and count as a direct heal, AND have a scaling mechanic?

I can only wish puncturing sweeps and bloodthirst healed on HP% too, but we know that if it did it wouldn't be balanced in the slightest.

Now what's going to happen once we start discussing this, you'll probably run to the thematic argument and say "oh well werewovles and lore" or something like that. You'll probably run to the "uniqueness" argument. Whatever you run to, I am sure you won't be able to address or justify that single discrecpency between skills and how they function.

And that's only one skill in the kit and exactly what is meant by a "compressed toolkit" that essentially automates attack and defense in the game in a way nowhere else allows you to do so. Do we really need to go and type up 12 pages explaining the problem? Because I am sure you know deep down it isn't balanced and that's why you are attempting to refute and shut down any type of argument that goes against the idea that is balanced.

But you can't hide reality. Reality is that it is already a problem on the live server and it will become a bigger one soon, and the nerfing will come anyway.

If WW is a "class" why don't they treat it like one and separate it into two bars like everyone else instead of this extreme compression? Make it follow the rules of other classes. Oh wait, let me guess. No, that can't happen. And it can't happen because then WW wouldn't be "unique" or "historically in the game WW didn't function like that" -- ah, but we're in a NEW WORLD! We're in a new direction! Why can't we do that? I think it would be fair and balanced, don't you?

Me? Either way, I'm firing siege.

Luneca wrote: »

It's amazing how many people get so offended when you refute something they say and take it personally rather than simply defending their point of view. Remember, this is a forum .

I'm always ready to learn! Saying that WW has a "metric ton of limitations" is simply bad faith. Because if, even with a metric ton of limitiations WW outperforms 99.9% of Cyrodiil, then how exactly is that OP? Especially when you can close those limitations though build decisions and less investment than any other "class" in the game?

No one defending WW would ever be able to answer that question because they know the statement that it is limited is false. In fact, we know it's false because of the patch notes, which again, even ZOS contradicts themselves with the statements made in the patch notes.

ZOS said they wanted to make infections claws "something like Engulfing Dragonfire" but it's superior to it in every way. That's not something like it, it's way better no matter how you look at it. And the decision between the heal morph and non heal? Not even a discussion by anyone that even has played the game for less than an hour which would be chosen. Really ZOS, if you are reading this get rid of that heal. Healing should be purposeful and not just tacked on skills to give a fallacy of choice

But let me stop there because I really will type 12 pages and get WW nerfed which is not my objective. What is, is calling attention to the fact that it is indeed not balanced, and how ZOS addresses that or classes in general is up to them.

The result we are seeign was inevitable anyway because the logic that WW has to be treated as a class, when it's working ontop of another class is faulty from the start. The idea that it's a class, yet has zero limitations of them and every skill has literally everything you could ever want compressed in a skill is a terrible one that will be unbalanced no matter how you slice it.

It's simply too much packed into a small area of space and time. And when that happens in a game like ESO, it means that less decisions have to be made to keep more verus other options, and that is the essence of the balance issue. It's not a mythic, it's not sets, it's the idea and execution itself that is the problem. Here in this game, the less decisions and compromises you make, the more damage output and power you can consolidate elsewhere, which is why these WW are survivng 4x coldfire ticks with no purge without sweating on live right now.

But of course people will disagree and then when they can't defend anymore find an out. Maybe they'll attack my 3 star status; maybe they'll say I only fire siege; but you know, it's not me who will hurt the most when Cyrodiil is dead and empty, or PVP becomes an unblanced withered tree. Siege is all I need.

It's ridiculous how far people will go to defend their class, their build, or whatever, to the point they start contradicting themselves. But these forums are always an interesting part of my day. I type at over 120 wpm, so it takes me about 1 minute to type a long statement (though this cheap $99 Chromebook cannot handle that speed and there's always typies). Forgive my typos, heh.

Luneca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Arguing an objective fact is bad faith? And then you hold ‘but ZOS you really need to nerf werewolf’. Ugh, I gotta tap out with some of y’all. Too persistent for me ngl.

"Objective fact" and yet you still want to be a werewolf, even the worst werewolf build is still better than the worst possible non-werewolf build, etc.

Why are you so invested in this to the point that you contradict yourself? And if you want to respond, only answer the questions from those two posts above otherwise I won't bother responding to you because I only want to discuss your position, not respond to low tier bait.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@Luneca - your above quote spoiled from above->

Luneca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Oh wait, it’s almost like no one doubted the cookie cutter would cookie cut to victory. Or that suggestions were provided by both players to prevent this outcome.

~~~

1 single day is all it took for @React to be back at it. Not saying all is fair and balanced but maybe give people time to adjust given that wolf has been mediocre and a passing thought for a long time until now. This is a reworked ‘class’ and it is far more powerful now than the vast majority of available builds in the game just like DK is.

DK remains busted @React and all I ever see you do is praise this or provide cautious feedback. Please try and reel your hypocrisy in just a bit. People might actually be able to connect the dots and see the bias (oh wait).

Okay, let me not bring up siege even though I wiped out the werewolves with it...And let me add the non-siege experience.

Saw it on live and wasn't really impressed, seemed inferior to what I could do without WW to be honest. The only advantage it had was healing, sustain and running around a corner, but the damage was a joke and posed no real threat to me at any point in time. Then again, the builds that I use when not sieging or messing around aren't exactly fair in and of themselves so something keeping up with that is impressive to a degree, I guess. I did see other people die from the werewolves and group of them before I killed them.

I can understand the calls for the healing to be tuned down. The werewolves I saw never had to heavy attack, never had issues sustaining, never had an issue using a heal, negate did not stop them from surviving, etc. -- in other words they are able build in a way to skip core mechanics in the game and gain extreme power. That is a problem, at least if we pretend the game is balanced.

HP% healing should not be in the game at all IMO, because HP stacking already has no downside and it means you don't really have to invest to get high heals. This is a problem not just with werewolf, but everywhere an HP% heal is in the game, except dark cloak. If ZOS wants to go this direction with HP heals, we need a real downside that occurs when stacking hp or that power needs to be available to everyone with a scribed skill.

Also ZOS claiming that the heal on the other morph, Hircine's Rage, is less than Rushed Ceremony is laughable when WW itself, due to how the healing and sustain is working, can build far more stats than a templar ever could and get a much higher heal in reality than the templar would with Rushed Ceremony. That's before we get into the number of buffs are being kept up and additional actions and damage instances that can be taken v. the templar, then think about cost of it all. ZOS actually makes the case that it's not balanced with their own reference for balancing the skill. It's wild.

It's also pretty silly for someone to be able to run around in that form with nearly 100% uptime, where other transformations cannot be sustained the same way nor do they have the same advantages. The other transformations are justified in power because they are limited. When that limit is removed, why is it still so powerful? Though after the buffs to werewolf, what other transformation even competes?

Werewolf is a class arguments don't mean that there shouldn't be any realistic drawback. It's got tankiness, it's got healing, it's got damage that can wipe out a majority of Cyrodiil. Granted, I wouldn't say it's the best possible combination of those three things because subclassing and certain sets we cannot discuss here offer much more power, but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

And at least on those other builds that approach or have more power, you have to actually heavy attack or mind your resources better -- something apparently not really needed on werewolf right now, which is why werewolf builds will probably be #1 for tanking or causing a disruption, esp. if there's more than one of them.

Just on the healing alone it's a problem. Because to get that level of healing anywhere else, it's not possible to sustain it as easily to the point you never need to heavy attack or mind the resource pool. That alone needs to be looked at, just like others have pointed out in this discussion and others.

If everyone could achieve that same level of power, we wouldn't be here discussing werewolf, DK, warden and other obviously out of line builds. But the problem is that others cannot achieve that and the little things add up and eventually become an actual gulf in real combat scenarios unless you are a PvP god. But even then, winning in that situation is a hollow victory, esp. when the person can jut respawn and then you have to do the same exact lopsided fight over and over. Then there is the reality that more than one person can do the same thing or similar and it becomes a multiplicative issue, and balancing should consider the overall picture in my opinion vs. a limited scope.

The potential for this to be completely disrupting is much higher than DK IMO, because at least DKs, no matter how good they are or how strong are mortal and limited by the stat system in a way that they cannot do everything. That's why @React complains about DoTs because it is the bane of his DK build. The DKs still have to waste actions keeping buffs up.

Werewolf however, does not seem to have that limitation on live or weakness. The kit is so condensed that it's essentially automated buffing with no real downtime, and thus automated defense and offense to a degree. And who can compete with that? Builds that offer any kind of automation in ESO usually are the most powerful and require specific building with downsides.

You'd give up a 5 peice, helmet, mythic, skill line or something. Here you literally just transform and give up nothing. Of course it's going to become a problem. This is easily foreseeable by anyone that knows that battles are decided by three main things: buff uptime, # of actions possible to take or eliminate, and flexibility to adapt to a changing situation.

If even one of those things are alleviated, it usually costs a LOT in a build to do so. But here, again, werewolf is so condensed that this isn't costing anything in reality. I heal and I get sustain and a damage increase? I do damage and I heal? Etc. -- it's compressing actions that usually are not possible to do together or are limited in all other combat scenarios in the game.

And that makes it an outlier, and that type of outlier status eventually means that we can make it OP. Because instead of achieving only one of those three things, on werewolf it's easy to achieve at least two. Those saying it's OP are objectively correct when you consider the combat system as a whole and what's possible in any unit of time on non-werewolf builds.

But this comment is already long enough, let little 3 star me stop talking too much. I'll go back to firing siege.

Holy yap, as the kids say.

Just going to try and catch some of these points because I know if I miss one you’ll just come back and say ‘but you didn’t say this about this’.

-idk what you’re referring to about Siege here at the top. Are you talking about the video game, this is nothing like that- end of story ig

-werewolf is built around their new systems. Core of flame is literally bi stat (at least) sustain

-the build path/ health building (stam sustain) seems to be their way of allowing us to have core of flame sustain (not mag… mag sustain only from our ‘ult’) and allowing us to build that health to avoid the immense burst they are seemingly adding to every class- like 30-40k as gawd lord @React was caught utilizing above.

-I somewhat agree, health-based healing is incredibly problematic. I personally wouldn’t mind the scaling to be standard wep/spell values for PvP. Hircine’s rage is actually horrible at healing… I promise you that it does not equate to remotely as good of a burst heal as breath of life does after passives that only Templar/subclass plar has access to.

-werewolf has existed in the ‘semi-permanent state’ far before any of these other ult transformations have even existed. Necro Transform and Vampire lord (was a non transform bat swarm before) were created long after werewolf existing in this transformation state.

-werewolf is not the best at tanking. They don’t even have a pull in kit and sets require us to give up certain group buffs just for a gimmicky pull on a cooldown. We also do not have access to warhorn (so no major force for group outside of low uptime Arc class) and our ultimate used in form cannot be used to proc Major berserk for example from MA.

~~~

-going to save the ‘werewolf has everything with no drawbacks’ argument at the bottom… will likely avoid repeating myself if discussed above or below in this response

~~~

-we are discussing werewolf, DK, and class mastery classes as these are the new ‘standard’ for combat. No worries, your favorite spec WILL get its turn and be like these too.

Trying to upend this and somehow succeeding will cause either current class to underperform or will likely result in new reworks being a let down comparatively if we truly have them scramble to try and bring power to a subjective level… for PvP as we all know is wonderfully balanced even outside of these things.

-DK is majorly disruptive and is very much a potent competitor for reworked specs. Let me tell you that even testing with the meta cheese Signet wolf (ZOS please implode Signet akin to Feral Guardian ty) a DK is still capable of going toe to toe with wolf thanks to immense pressure, burst (0.o), and potentially infinite bi-stat sustain in one need and in-kit package (ooh, the reworked standard).

Speaking of disruptive, forget that DKs also have both a delayed stun and a root- we have no in-kit root.

-mixing this in, we have several things we spend a GCD for an essentially do not receive an immediate benefit for (I.e we used GCDs ‘for nothing’); Rampage (our ‘ult’) and the leap—> DOT version.

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Last but not least as referenced above-

My memory is horrid but I’ll list important things that werewolf in-fact does not have:

-a purge

-an actual HoT of any kind (buff up at any point you need and see what the tooltip on a damage build’s vigor is… ooh also we have no minor resolve in kit- I forgot!)

-snare removal

-ANY burst in kit (literally review the skills if needed)

-limited access to weapon passives (no damage ones work at all)

-limited access to class passives

-1 back bar/front bar weapon (we cannot run a 5/5/2/1/1 setup like everyone else can)… in other words no 2 5 pc sets with a mythic AND a monster helm (ooooh, forgot Balorgh doesn’t really work for us either).

-any buff we do not have access to organically or cannot be sourced via a set (which usually means we give up stats, etc. to get them this way)

-we cannot properly activate many types of sets such as ‘use ult’ or ‘use poison’ (scavenging maw comes to mind here)

-it just keeps going on but these are things that the majority of classes/efficient subclasses have organic access to in-kit via some capacity

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Werewolf should be better as a 1 bar build providing buffs to compensate for the lack of a bar and additional abilities. Just like horrible oakensoul build is better than a horrible non oakensoul build. I never once said this wasn’t the case. It however is not without its limitations and drawbacks.

Less GCD management, less complexity, yet 1 bar builds are supposed to be better than 2 bar ones? Lol. Also, the limitations are irrelevant in this meta.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I see with ww right now outside of it being way too overbloated stat-/buff wise is how much of a joke it is to sustain. Can even see in Pelican's 1vX video how much of a non issue sustain is, and that's while showcasing a warden ww (I assume at least since he's on disdain) which have significantly worse sustain than a sorc (assuming pure class with the new class masteries). Having skills that cost sub 1k stamina while being so overbloated with utility and damage is an absolute meme of a balance decision. Sure, let ww have big damage, especially during the rampage window, but if you can't even outkite and/or outsustain it as a legitimate counterplay then something is severely out of place.