U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

Wuuffyy · June 1

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

you paint me as some "troll"

yes.

But it doesn’t make me a troll lol. I have provided ample evidence for why WW needs to be adjusted, including an 18 minute video of real duels.

Like, I find your stance quite rather amusing. We have shown tests on multiple classes with different setups, yet every time our results are displayed the goalpost keeps getting moved. It doesn’t take rocket science to understand how problematic it is to have builds with 45-50 k HP running around dealing 7-8k DPS. Anybody who has spent a considerable amount of time in PvP knows what I am talking about. And no, the floor does not need to be buffed. What they need is to IMPROVE at the game. God forbid people take the time to learn how to PvP instead of asking for ZOS to buff them to the moon just for them to be “competitive”.

The “goalpost” never moves Häagen-Dazs. I’m here to have actual issues addressed while maintaining werewolf in a comparable state to reworked specs…

…all the while advocating for them to receive compensation for system lockouts if ZOS, for example, were to later deem werewolf non compatible with Class Mastery after all (receiving their own version of ‘werewolf mastery’ instead with toned-down damage passives for things like possible purge/crosshealing with other werewolves/etc).

If you say something should be nerfed based on CMX prompt or duel video and you don’t accurately provide gear and other intricate info on you and your opponent- you end up with ZoS hurting the floor unnecessarily by making silly, unheard of changes like 1 second and 6 second dots in PvP all-the-while not addressing the actual issues that are causing them to be overbearing…

…to note, not even close to every werewolf spec is as overbearing as class masteries on classes that aren’t reworked paired with Signet which werewolf maintains itself in a prime position to exploit…

Especially with Signet as you are in the same ‘mode’ of Feral Guardian (which already received special and nerfed rules for interaction) doing ‘ult level’ damage without actually using ult in a typical fashion.

You are the one concerned above who will meta hop on and meta hop off werewolf. I and many of my-like-minded posters here are the ones that will have to pick up the pieces after they overnerf the core kit to ‘beat those egregious outliers into submission’.

So my proposal is that they address the issues appropriately. Instead of ‘nerf werewolf healing’ which they could thoughtlessly do by half right now and ‘fix your issue’ while leaving werewolf in an abysmal state… I instead wager they do something like ‘convert to wep/spell scaling (not max stam/mag exclusively) while under Battle Spirit’ so I can still heal on a damage wolf AND your problem (that specific one) is addressed.

dark_hunterxmg · June 1

You want to know why WW is going to run 45k hp?
Because of things like this:

This is from live, so you'd better believe it'll be in U50 as well.

Anything that Werewolf can do, humans will do, but they'll do it better due to the additional utility. If a class mastery is "broken" for Werewolf, then it is most certainly broken for human players as well. When the class mastery passives get nerfed or go away for the associated class rework, Werewolf gets nerfed. Werewolf already had its rework and it got nerfed with the class mastery passives factored in. You think it will get a buff when those passives change? That'll be a hard no.

Mark my words, when U50 goes live we'll see the real meta that the human players have been sandbagging on for the whole pts cycle. It won't be Werewolf. My money is on Sorc.

React · June 1

.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

You want to know why WW is going to run 45k hp?
Because of things like this:

This is from live, so you'd better believe it'll be in U50 as well.

Anything that Werewolf can do, humans will do, but they'll do it better due to the additional utility. If a class mastery is "broken" for Werewolf, then it is most certainly broken for human players as well. When the class mastery passives get nerfed or go away for the associated class rework, Werewolf gets nerfed. Werewolf already had its rework and it got nerfed with the class mastery passives factored in. You think it will get a buff when those passives change? That'll be a hard no.

Mark my words, when U50 goes live we'll see the real meta that the human players have been sandbagging on for the whole pts cycle. It won't be Werewolf. My money is on Sorc.

Hey, that's me!

Just for context; I was wearing double damage sets, 5 medium, 3x offensive blue cp, triple infused, dark elf, shadow, tri stat good, 33k hp, etc. Using zero pen, built entirely around onslaught to maximize burst. About as high damage as you can reasonably run on DK in the live patch outside of strictly dueling.

Nowhere near as tanky as the 50k hp WW build on the PTS, which also does significantly more damage than my full damage DK, as far as my duels with pelican went.

I do agree though that people likely won't flock en masse to werewolf - because many veteran players aren't entertained by the simplicity of the one bar playstyle.

From the very beginning with this WW rework, they should have just disabled the class mastery passives altogether. WWs could have continued subclassing to optimize their output, and then it is very likely few (if any) further nerfs to the WW skills themselves would have been necessary. Unfortunately the reality seems that WW in U50 is going to be in an absolutely bonkers state, and will likely need to see further adjustments to be brought in line.

Hopefully they look at the health scaling heals first - that is easily the most problematic part of the kit, in my opinion.

Wuuffyy · June 1

React wrote: »

.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

You want to know why WW is going to run 45k hp?
Because of things like this:

This is from live, so you'd better believe it'll be in U50 as well.

Anything that Werewolf can do, humans will do, but they'll do it better due to the additional utility. If a class mastery is "broken" for Werewolf, then it is most certainly broken for human players as well. When the class mastery passives get nerfed or go away for the associated class rework, Werewolf gets nerfed. Werewolf already had its rework and it got nerfed with the class mastery passives factored in. You think it will get a buff when those passives change? That'll be a hard no.

Mark my words, when U50 goes live we'll see the real meta that the human players have been sandbagging on for the whole pts cycle. It won't be Werewolf. My money is on Sorc.

Hey, that's me!

Just for context; I was wearing double damage sets, 5 medium, 3x offensive blue cp, triple infused, dark elf, shadow, tri stat good, 33k hp, etc. Using zero pen, built entirely around onslaught to maximize burst. About as high damage as you can reasonably run on DK in the live patch outside of strictly dueling.

Nowhere near as tanky as the 50k hp WW build on the PTS, which also does significantly more damage than my full damage DK, as far as my duels with pelican went.

I do agree though that people likely won't flock en masse to werewolf - because many veteran players aren't entertained by the simplicity of the one bar playstyle.

From the very beginning with this WW rework, they should have just disabled the class mastery passives altogether. WWs could have continued subclassing to optimize their output, and then it is very likely few (if any) further nerfs to the WW skills themselves would have been necessary. Unfortunately the reality seems that WW in U50 is going to be in an absolutely bonkers state, and will likely need to see further adjustments to be brought in line.

Hopefully they look at the health scaling heals first - that is easily the most problematic part of the kit, in my opinion.

Wow you basically instantly replied to that (are you watching us my king?). I don’t care what you’re running here to be honest. That burst is borderline unsurvivable or at least not survivable should your opponent have any shortcomings or make any mistakes and can be relatively quickly repeated for an additional attempt should you fail.

To talk this down and pro-port werewolf as the only issue we have on the table because it does good damage with NO burst (as in outside of procs or whatever else any other spec can get) is once again disingenuous (this is my favorite word with y’all and I’m beginning to see a correlation, mind you).

However I absolutely agree with your last point, I hope they’ll consider things like the providing some or all wep/spell scaling while ‘under battle spirit’ and additional Feral-Guardian esque adjustments to Signet (at least) before they slam the hammer upon it…

I wager they won’t considering they were willing to reduce our Berserker dot dps from live and reduce it to 1 second in an attempt to blindly adjust top performing specs using Signet and Warden mastery (and did not adjust it back)/ huntsman, etc. for a duel. Werewolf deserves better treatment but I bet you it won’t get it.

Erickson9610 · June 1

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

You want to know why WW is going to run 45k hp?
Because of things like this:

This is from live, so you'd better believe it'll be in U50 as well.

Anything that Werewolf can do, humans will do, but they'll do it better due to the additional utility. If a class mastery is "broken" for Werewolf, then it is most certainly broken for human players as well. When the class mastery passives get nerfed or go away for the associated class rework, Werewolf gets nerfed. Werewolf already had its rework and it got nerfed with the class mastery passives factored in. You think it will get a buff when those passives change? That'll be a hard no.

Mark my words, when U50 goes live we'll see the real meta that the human players have been sandbagging on for the whole pts cycle. It won't be Werewolf. My money is on Sorc.

Hey, that's me!

Just for context; I was wearing double damage sets, 5 medium, 3x offensive blue cp, triple infused, dark elf, shadow, tri stat good, 33k hp, etc. Using zero pen, built entirely around onslaught to maximize burst. About as high damage as you can reasonably run on DK in the live patch outside of strictly dueling.

Nowhere near as tanky as the 50k hp WW build on the PTS, which also does significantly more damage than my full damage DK, as far as my duels with pelican went.

I do agree though that people likely won't flock en masse to werewolf - because many veteran players aren't entertained by the simplicity of the one bar playstyle.

From the very beginning with this WW rework, they should have just disabled the class mastery passives altogether. WWs could have continued subclassing to optimize their output, and then it is very likely few (if any) further nerfs to the WW skills themselves would have been necessary. Unfortunately the reality seems that WW in U50 is going to be in an absolutely bonkers state, and will likely need to see further adjustments to be brought in line.

Hopefully they look at the health scaling heals first - that is easily the most problematic part of the kit, in my opinion.

I don't mind getting Werewolf-specific Mastery passives. Pick any 2 of 5 passives for use to specialize your role while in Werewolf form. Since only Damage Dealer and Tank roles are supported for Werewolves, it seems pretty obvious that some Werewolf Masteries would help with one role or the other.

However, we know Class Mastery passives will be changed as each Class gets its rework. The troublesome Masteries when used in Werewolf form will likely be nerfed to the ground or changed to require Class abilities when their respective Classes get their reworks. So, disabling Class Masteries is not the right way to go for this, as Class is still part of how you build around Werewolf. Maybe one day Class Masteries will cease to exist, once every Class has had their rework completed and there is no further need for them.

My hope is that Werewolf still has a niche that it can fill in all content. Thankfully, Werewolves can provide a unique damage done buff to allies, so they'll hopefully be included in PvE and PvP groups in some capacity. They should not be nerfed so much that they become undesirable in any capacity in competitive content. Further, Werewolf should be good at what its niche is, no matter how seemingly simplistic it may be to play.

dark_hunterxmg · June 1

No Werewolf on live or on pts is going to be able to do burst damage like that. It is impossible. I don't understand the issue with Werewolf's sustained dps when players can effectively walk around with an "I win" button.

Have you tried that setup on pts also? What were the results?

Decimus · June 1

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

No Werewolf on live or on pts is going to be able to do burst damage like that. It is impossible. I don't understand the issue with Werewolf's sustained dps when players can effectively walk around with an "I win" button.

Have you tried that setup on pts also? What were the results?

Actual duel when I was testing max damage werewolf on PTS... sadly there's no reason to play max damage since you'll never survive or be able to stay offensive against the ones holding block and building max health.

Hircine's Rage, Berserker morph, points into Stamina, Shattered Paths, Oakfather Savage WW etc etc... barely more damage than a warden werewolf with 50k health & 70% stronger heals, 37% more damage mitigation.

Erickson9610 · June 1

The bleed stacks mechanic for the Werewolf Berserker light/heavy attacks is extremely oppressive for the user in PvP. When you reach 5 stacks, the duration shortens by one second, which means you don't have enough time to light attack weave against a target in PvP if you want to keep the stacks up. You have to be light attacking constantly, which destroys the damage output in PvP for this morph.

Overall, there is no point to running Werewolf Berserker in PvP. You are far better suited running Pack Leader, unless you have sets/passives which become less effective the more permanent pets you have.

Erickson9610 · June 2

Can Claw Fury be given a snare, the way Biting Jabs works? Compared to other channeled spammables, Claw Fury does nothing to defend you while channeling or keep the enemy in melee range. It will be underutilized in PvP because nobody will willingly stand in your damage cone for 4.6 seconds.

Typically, you start the channel, the enemy moves slightly out of range and starts pressuring you back, and then you have to block cancel the channel to get closer or heal yourself because you were not doing enough pressure to your target. This ability is essentially relegated to PvE.

React · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

No Werewolf on live or on pts is going to be able to do burst damage like that. It is impossible. I don't understand the issue with Werewolf's sustained dps when players can effectively walk around with an "I win" button.

Have you tried that setup on pts also? What were the results?

I did actually try this EXACT setup on the PTS vs pelican, but with the addition of my own class mastery passives to boost the setup compared to when you fought it. So vs pelican I was tankier, had more damage, and more healing.

Pelican consistently did 2-3x my DPS, although that is to be expected as he's a "pressure" build whilst my setup is a "burst" build. However, there is an issue with the nature of the U50 WW "Pressure" build - it is doing so many instances of damage in single global cooldowns that it cumulatively is dealing MORE "burst" damage than a burst setup is capable of.

I think this CMX image is the perfect example of this. You'll see that all the damage here takes place in approximately 1.5 seconds - less time than the recap you shared above of my damage vs you from last night.This damage totals 37,448. That is coming mostly from things that have little to no counterplay (dots, status, light attacks), from a player with 50k health who is more or less immune to burst entirely.

The results of our fights were pelican either killed me, or I made myself so tanky I was barely able to survive without having a hope of ever killing him. Even when I was running the higher damage version of this setup, the closest I got to killing him was around 2k HP - when every single part of my combo crit and he failed to break free in time due to his 300+ ping. Never actually succeeded in killing him once he moved up to the 50k HP mark.

So yes - WW is indeed capable of the same burst that DK is, but in a MUCH less counterable format which is far less dependent on good crit RNG.

Wuuffyy · June 2

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

No Werewolf on live or on pts is going to be able to do burst damage like that. It is impossible. I don't understand the issue with Werewolf's sustained dps when players can effectively walk around with an "I win" button.

Have you tried that setup on pts also? What were the results?

I did actually try this EXACT setup on the PTS vs pelican, but with the addition of my own class mastery passives to boost the setup compared to when you fought it. So vs pelican I was tankier, had more damage, and more healing.

Pelican consistently did 2-3x my DPS, although that is to be expected as he's a "pressure" build whilst my setup is a "burst" build. However, there is an issue with the nature of the U50 WW "Pressure" build - it is doing so many instances of damage in single global cooldowns that it cumulatively is dealing MORE "burst" damage than a burst setup is capable of.

I think this CMX image is the perfect example of this. You'll see that all the damage here takes place in approximately 1.5 seconds - less time than the recap you shared above of my damage vs you from last night.This damage totals 37,448. That is coming mostly from things that have little to no counterplay (dots, status, light attacks), from a player with 50k health who is more or less immune to burst entirely.

The results of our fights were pelican either killed me, or I made myself so tanky I was barely able to survive without having a hope of ever killing him. Even when I was running the higher damage version of this setup, the closest I got to killing him was around 2k HP - when every single part of my combo crit and he failed to break free in time due to his 300+ ping. Never actually succeeded in killing him once he moved up to the 50k HP mark.

So yes - WW is indeed capable of the same burst that DK is, but in a MUCH less counterable format which is far less dependent on good crit RNG.

Looking to see how this “burst” plays out on live. Nothing on the werewolf tooltips is a burst move and the majority of what you mentioned isn’t even primarily werewolf-related but I suppose we’ll see.

High pressure is still not equaled to 30-40k burst btw.

dark_hunterxmg · June 2

That damage is not inherent to Werewolf. That is a Warden Signet build. It is highly dependent on one mythic being OP plus Warden class masteries.

Do you have data from any other Werewolf fights?

React · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

That damage is not inherent to Werewolf. That is a Warden Signet build. It is highly dependent on one mythic being OP plus Warden class masteries.

Do you have data from any other Werewolf fights?

Well you'd be foolish not to use signet on WW, when it is so far above and beyond any other option.

I did do some fights vs sorc wolf with similar results - slightly lower damage on his part, but even harder to kill. Which hardly matters since it is nigh impossible to kill a 50k HP WW on the PTS to begin with.

You don't need to take my word for it though, as Decimus said he streamed his testing all week long and has VODs available for review on his twitch channel - so feel free to check those out if you'd like to see more examples. I think he even did some fights against pelican as well during several of those streams.

dark_hunterxmg · June 2

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

That damage is not inherent to Werewolf. That is a Warden Signet build. It is highly dependent on one mythic being OP plus Warden class masteries.

Do you have data from any other Werewolf fights?

Well you'd be foolish not to use signet on WW, when it is so far above and beyond any other option.

I did do some fights vs sorc wolf with similar results - slightly lower damage on his part, but even harder to kill. Which hardly matters since it is nigh impossible to kill a 50k HP WW on the PTS to begin with.

You don't need to take my word for it though, as Decimus said he streamed his testing all week long and has VODs available for review on his twitch channel - so feel free to check those out if you'd like to see more examples. I think he even did some fights against pelican as well during several of those streams.

Well, I'm not going to be running a Signet Werewolf next patch. I've fought against several of them. Seemed kinda meh.

Luneca · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

That damage is not inherent to Werewolf. That is a Warden Signet build. It is highly dependent on one mythic being OP plus Warden class masteries.

Do you have data from any other Werewolf fights?

Well you'd be foolish not to use signet on WW, when it is so far above and beyond any other option.

I did do some fights vs sorc wolf with similar results - slightly lower damage on his part, but even harder to kill. Which hardly matters since it is nigh impossible to kill a 50k HP WW on the PTS to begin with.

You don't need to take my word for it though, as Decimus said he streamed his testing all week long and has VODs available for review on his twitch channel - so feel free to check those out if you'd like to see more examples. I think he even did some fights against pelican as well during several of those streams.

Well, I'm not going to be running a Signet Werewolf next patch. I've fought against several of them. Seemed kinda meh.

What? You're not going to do what a small group of players said you should? How could you!? You'll just have to be nerfed because the roll button and purge escapes these players yet again.

dark_hunterxmg · June 2

Luneca wrote: »

What? You're not going to do what a small group of players said you should? How could you!? You'll just have to be nerfed because the roll button and purge escapes these players yet again.

Yeah, I get why people will run it. It's just not my flavor of cheese.

Alchimiste1 · June 2

Personally, I don't think WW was nerfed enough. Too late now, it's going live.

coop500 · June 2

Just please disable Signet on WW, please devs, on Monday. Just do it and save both sides the headache.

hoangdz · June 2

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

you paint me as some "troll"

yes.

But it doesn’t make me a troll lol. I have provided ample evidence for why WW needs to be adjusted, including an 18 minute video of real duels.

Like, I find your stance quite rather amusing. We have shown tests on multiple classes with different setups, yet every time our results are displayed the goalpost keeps getting moved. It doesn’t take rocket science to understand how problematic it is to have builds with 45-50 k HP running around dealing 7-8k DPS. Anybody who has spent a considerable amount of time in PvP knows what I am talking about. And no, the floor does not need to be buffed. What they need is to IMPROVE at the game. God forbid people take the time to learn how to PvP instead of asking for ZOS to buff them to the moon just for them to be “competitive”.

The “goalpost” never moves Häagen-Dazs. I’m here to have actual issues addressed while maintaining werewolf in a comparable state to reworked specs…

…all the while advocating for them to receive compensation for system lockouts if ZOS, for example, were to later deem werewolf non compatible with Class Mastery after all (receiving their own version of ‘werewolf mastery’ instead with toned-down damage passives for things like possible purge/crosshealing with other werewolves/etc).

If you say something should be nerfed based on CMX prompt or duel video and you don’t accurately provide gear and other intricate info on you and your opponent- you end up with ZoS hurting the floor unnecessarily by making silly, unheard of changes like 1 second and 6 second dots in PvP all-the-while not addressing the actual issues that are causing them to be overbearing…

…to note, not even close to every werewolf spec is as overbearing as class masteries on classes that aren’t reworked paired with Signet which werewolf maintains itself in a prime position to exploit…

Especially with Signet as you are in the same ‘mode’ of Feral Guardian (which already received special and nerfed rules for interaction) doing ‘ult level’ damage without actually using ult in a typical fashion.

You are the one concerned above who will meta hop on and meta hop off werewolf. I and many of my-like-minded posters here are the ones that will have to pick up the pieces after they overnerf the core kit to ‘beat those egregious outliers into submission’.

So my proposal is that they address the issues appropriately. Instead of ‘nerf werewolf healing’ which they could thoughtlessly do by half right now and ‘fix your issue’ while leaving werewolf in an abysmal state… I instead wager they do something like ‘convert to wep/spell scaling (not max stam/mag exclusively) while under Battle Spirit’ so I can still heal on a damage wolf AND your problem (that specific one) is addressed.

All the gear has been displayed in CMX screenshots if you cared to look. And FYI, ZOS is still going to make silly, unecessary changes whether you or I raise concern. Look what they did to NB when we called out that its class mastery passives are too weak in PvP. They nerfed them even further lol.

As long as it's not max HP scaling, all is fine.

hoangdz · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

You want to know why WW is going to run 45k hp?
Because of things like this:

This is from live, so you'd better believe it'll be in U50 as well.

Anything that Werewolf can do, humans will do, but they'll do it better due to the additional utility. If a class mastery is "broken" for Werewolf, then it is most certainly broken for human players as well. When the class mastery passives get nerfed or go away for the associated class rework, Werewolf gets nerfed. Werewolf already had its rework and it got nerfed with the class mastery passives factored in. You think it will get a buff when those passives change? That'll be a hard no.

Mark my words, when U50 goes live we'll see the real meta that the human players have been sandbagging on for the whole pts cycle. It won't be Werewolf. My money is on Sorc.

He's using Onslaught which means he's in a 1-shot nuker build. All you need to do is avoid that combo or build tankier. Simply speccing for 45k HP with 3-4 dmg CPs isn't going to cut it.

On PTS WW performs best with high HP because all their heals scale off that stat. This is the core problem I am trying to address. A build with 8k DPS is extremely hard to deal with, but if its HP is within a burstable window, it's fine. Now throw 45k HP on top and it's borderline impossible to be defeated. Something has to give here.

dark_hunterxmg · June 2

hoangdz wrote: »

He's using Onslaught which means he's in a 1-shot nuker build. All you need to do is avoid that combo or build tankier. Simply speccing for 45k HP with 3-4 dmg CPs isn't going to cut it.

On PTS WW performs best with high HP because all their heals scale off that stat. This is the core problem I am trying to address. A build with 8k DPS is extremely hard to deal with, but if its HP is within a burstable window, it's fine. Now throw 45k HP on top and it's borderline impossible to be defeated. Something has to give here.

This was on live and "building tankier" isn't a thing against that combo. The build I was on had 38k hp, and 37k resistance. Resistance means nothing against Onslaught or any of the skills following it. The only way to mitigate, is to avoid it completely, which is unlikely to happen in most cases. Onslaught has no visible animation, only a sound. From my perspective, all of those things happened within a 1 second time period. I was at 80% health when the combo started. I could have been at 100% and the result would have been the same. I could have had 50k hp and the result would have been the same.

There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals. Weapon damage scaling makes zero sense. Heals scaled on offensive stats? Why do so many want damage dealers to be damage healers? Also, why does Werewolf have to be like everything else?

This is kinda funny actually. I show an recap with an actually insane amount of damage, the response has been, that this is okay and Werewolf should be nerfed.

Once class masteries go away, you will see the hard nerf that you're looking for. Werewolf will be in the same place is has always been.

dark_hunterxmg · June 2

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

No Werewolf on live or on pts is going to be able to do burst damage like that. It is impossible. I don't understand the issue with Werewolf's sustained dps when players can effectively walk around with an "I win" button.

Have you tried that setup on pts also? What were the results?

I did actually try this EXACT setup on the PTS vs pelican, but with the addition of my own class mastery passives to boost the setup compared to when you fought it. So vs pelican I was tankier, had more damage, and more healing.

Pelican consistently did 2-3x my DPS, although that is to be expected as he's a "pressure" build whilst my setup is a "burst" build. However, there is an issue with the nature of the U50 WW "Pressure" build - it is doing so many instances of damage in single global cooldowns that it cumulatively is dealing MORE "burst" damage than a burst setup is capable of.

I think this CMX image is the perfect example of this. You'll see that all the damage here takes place in approximately 1.5 seconds - less time than the recap you shared above of my damage vs you from last night.This damage totals 37,448. That is coming mostly from things that have little to no counterplay (dots, status, light attacks), from a player with 50k health who is more or less immune to burst entirely.

The results of our fights were pelican either killed me, or I made myself so tanky I was barely able to survive without having a hope of ever killing him. Even when I was running the higher damage version of this setup, the closest I got to killing him was around 2k HP - when every single part of my combo crit and he failed to break free in time due to his 300+ ping. Never actually succeeded in killing him once he moved up to the 50k HP mark.

So yes - WW is indeed capable of the same burst that DK is, but in a MUCH less counterable format which is far less dependent on good crit RNG.

Still looking for the burst hit. Highest numbers I am seeing are around 3k. No 8k, 10k, 12k, nothing. Mara's or cleanse cp would have dropped those dots instantly. Also, why aren't you posting your own numbers? Why is it always someone else's?

Decimus · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals. Weapon damage scaling makes zero sense. Heals scaled on offensive stats? Why do so many want damage dealers to be damage healers? Also, why does Werewolf have to be like everything else?

"There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals.", didn't I duel your Deadlands Demolisher Bash WW on the PTS and it was some 10+ minute stalemate precisely due to health scaling heals being overtuned? Same as literally any fight against a 40-50k health werewolf?

Most people acknowledge endless fights as a boring thing, not just in ESO but any competitive activity - imagine there were no goals and every football game ended 0-0, this is the equivalent of max health meta in ESO.

And yes, heals should scale based off of offensive stats - we have quite a few of those in game... or would you rather have things like Vigor, Leeching Vines etc also scale off of Max Health? Spoiler: wouldn't be good for the game, as explained above.

It is not about "damage dealers wanting to be healers" (you don't heal other people with any werewolf ability), just about damage dealers not wanting to be forced into the tank role. Also if I were to reverse your logic, why does a tank want to be a "healer"?

This line of reasoning just doesn't hold water.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Once class masteries go away, you will see the hard nerf that you're looking for. Werewolf will be in the same place is has always been.

While the class masteries make health scaling even worse, you still want to build around maximum health even as a warden werewolf (which has no health scaling class masteries) because you'd be foolish to still give up around 70% of your self-healing, even if you were to gain 1600 weapon/spell damage towards Hircine's Rage on Warden.

hoangdz · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Still looking for the burst hit. Highest numbers I am seeing are around 3k. No 8k, 10k, 12k, nothing.

1) There is no burst hit because this build deals burst damage differently. The burst in question here is ALL those instances of damage happening in 1.5s. If you were to place 2 players next to each other and have one receive a single hit of 12k damage while the other 12 procs of damage in 1 second for 1.2k each, both would lose health exactly at the same time.

2) It is actually a superior form of burst than a traditional single hard-hitting hit because it spreads out over multiple ticks of damage and does not require investment in crit chance and crit damage. This mechanic not only reduces the efficiency of roll dodge and blocking because there are too many hits to account for, but also functions as pressure.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Mara's or cleanse cp would have dropped those dots instantly

Lol, think carefully about that statement for a bit. Both Mara's Balm and cleanse CP have a 25-30s cooldown, with cleanse CP requiring you to be at 25% HP or lower to proc. If you are at 25% HP you would most likely not recover from a WW with Static Reverb mastery, and against a Warden WW you would get nuked from full health. In fact, that screenshot shows 38060 total damage in 1.5s from these sources:

Rip and Tear: 6156
Light Attack (Werewolf): 5033
Rip and Tear Execute: 4636
Sundered: 4412
Poisoned: 3344
Hemorrhaging: 2881
Feral Carnage: 2624
Eagle's Mark: 2607
Burning: 2142
Bloodclaws: 1998
Direwolf Gnash: 752
Fiery Weapon: 600
Bash: 446
Poisoned Weapon: 429

The cleansable damage sources in this list are Major Breach procced from Rip & Tear, burning, hemorrhaging, poisoned, Feral Carnage, and Eagle's Mark. Even if I remove all of them from the list, I'd still end up with 24462 damage from Rip & Tear, Rip & Tear Execute, Bloodclaw's initial hit, Light Attack, Sundered, Poisoned & Fiery Weapon enchant procs, bash, and Direwolf Gnash. These procs are direct, uncleansable damage, and more than enough to chunk 81% of a 30k HP player, or 61% of a 40k HP player.

What's even funnier is that since WW skills cost practically nothing:

and Aerie's Cry only has a 3s cooldown:

You can practically reapply ALL of these effects within 3s after Mara's Balm had cleansed off your debuffs for dirt cheap. Do the math on the skill cost/cooldown of each and tell me if this is an actual good counter.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Also, why aren't you posting your own numbers? Why is it always someone else's?

That's actually funny coming from you. Why aren't you posting your own numbers if you think WW is fine? Why is it always us doing the work while you and your WW friends are there pretending that this is the status-quo and we're required to do the burden of proof?

Alchimiste1 · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

React wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

No Werewolf on live or on pts is going to be able to do burst damage like that. It is impossible. I don't understand the issue with Werewolf's sustained dps when players can effectively walk around with an "I win" button.

Have you tried that setup on pts also? What were the results?

I did actually try this EXACT setup on the PTS vs pelican, but with the addition of my own class mastery passives to boost the setup compared to when you fought it. So vs pelican I was tankier, had more damage, and more healing.

Pelican consistently did 2-3x my DPS, although that is to be expected as he's a "pressure" build whilst my setup is a "burst" build. However, there is an issue with the nature of the U50 WW "Pressure" build - it is doing so many instances of damage in single global cooldowns that it cumulatively is dealing MORE "burst" damage than a burst setup is capable of.

I think this CMX image is the perfect example of this. You'll see that all the damage here takes place in approximately 1.5 seconds - less time than the recap you shared above of my damage vs you from last night.This damage totals 37,448. That is coming mostly from things that have little to no counterplay (dots, status, light attacks), from a player with 50k health who is more or less immune to burst entirely.

The results of our fights were pelican either killed me, or I made myself so tanky I was barely able to survive without having a hope of ever killing him. Even when I was running the higher damage version of this setup, the closest I got to killing him was around 2k HP - when every single part of my combo crit and he failed to break free in time due to his 300+ ping. Never actually succeeded in killing him once he moved up to the 50k HP mark.

So yes - WW is indeed capable of the same burst that DK is, but in a MUCH less counterable format which is far less dependent on good crit RNG.

Still looking for the burst hit. Highest numbers I am seeing are around 3k. No 8k, 10k, 12k, nothing. Mara's or cleanse cp would have dropped those dots instantly. Also, why aren't you posting your own numbers? Why is it always someone else's?

So, if you take all the numbers from 3.664s to 4.865s you get a total of just over 35k damage in 1.2s.
Is that not burst?

Saying just slot/use the exact counter to something doesn't really contradict this.

hoangdz · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

This was on live and "building tankier" isn't a thing against that combo. The build I was on had 38k hp, and 37k resistance. Resistance means nothing against Onslaught or any of the skills following it.

What do you mean it isn't a thing? Onslaught ignores armor but does not bypass % mitigation. Slotting Duelist Rebuff and Ironclad CP would have let you reduce those burst values to a more tolerable number. You also took a 17k Molten Whip, which suggests that you have very little critical resistances. Having Rallying Cry would have definitely helped there as well lol.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The only way to mitigate, is to avoid it completely, which is unlikely to happen in most cases. Onslaught has no visible animation, only a sound. From my perspective, all of those things happened within a 1 second time period. I was at 80% health when the combo started. I could have been at 100% and the result would have been the same. I could have had 50k hp and the result would have been the same.

Yes, that entire combo depends on landing the Shattering Rocks stun. You know there's an addon that tracks Shattering Rocks, right? You can also look at his hands to see the animation. Onslaught also has no visible animation because @React most likely animation canceled it. Just spend some time dueling DKs and you'll never die to that combo again. It's very predictable.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals. Weapon damage scaling makes zero sense. Heals scaled on offensive stats? Why do so many want damage dealers to be damage healers?

There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals if the build doesn't do damage. When it actually does serious damage, then you are crossing into imbalance territory.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Also, why does Werewolf have to be like everything else?

Because in PvP everything must be subjected to this thing called "balance". You can't have exceptions just because it's your favorite class. I am a Sorc main yet I still ask for nerfs to my own class because it's neither fun beating people because your class is significantly stronger nor fighting other people running the same cancerous crap.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

This is kinda funny actually. I show an recap with an actually insane amount of damage, the response has been, that this is okay and Werewolf should be nerfed.

Once class masteries go away, you will see the hard nerf that you're looking for. Werewolf will be in the same place is has always been.

You showed a recap of a full burst combo involving 4 hard hitting skills chained together beautifully (Onslaught, Incinerate, Heart of Flame, Molten Whip), all of which can be avoided with a simple dodge roll button. Meanwhile, we showed you a WW burst combo consisting of 14 different sources of damage that are impossible to fully avoid. They are not the same.

dark_hunterxmg · June 2

Decimus wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals. Weapon damage scaling makes zero sense. Heals scaled on offensive stats? Why do so many want damage dealers to be damage healers? Also, why does Werewolf have to be like everything else?

"There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals.", didn't I duel your Deadlands Demolisher Bash WW on the PTS and it was some 10+ minute stalemate precisely due to health scaling heals being overtuned? Same as literally any fight against a 40-50k health werewolf?

Most people acknowledge endless fights as a boring thing, not just in ESO but any competitive activity - imagine there were no goals and every football game ended 0-0, this is the equivalent of max health meta in ESO.

And yes, heals should scale based off of offensive stats - we have quite a few of those in game... or would you rather have things like Vigor, Leeching Vines etc also scale off of Max Health? Spoiler: wouldn't be good for the game, as explained above.

It is not about "damage dealers wanting to be healers" (you don't heal other people with any werewolf ability), just about damage dealers not wanting to be forced into the tank role. Also if I were to reverse your logic, why does a tank want to be a "healer"?

This line of reasoning just doesn't hold water.

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Once class masteries go away, you will see the hard nerf that you're looking for. Werewolf will be in the same place is has always been.

While the class masteries make health scaling even worse, you still want to build around maximum health even as a warden werewolf (which has no health scaling class masteries) because you'd be foolish to still give up around 70% of your self-healing, even if you were to gain 1600 weapon/spell damage towards Hircine's Rage on Warden.

We did indeed fight for a little while. You called stalemate far earlier than I would have. The amount healing that I was getting isn't inherent to Werewolf. It is inherent to Sorc. Every Sorc next patch will be getting at least 2k hps just because. I play the same Bash build on live and I have for a while. New Werewolf makes it more sustainable.

I do agree that endless fight are boring but I expect that with werewolf duels. Werewolf fights on pts are the same as on live. Endless.

Tank is resistance. Heals don't scale on resistance. I can have high health and still be squishy af. Weapon damage scaling heals work for human builds because they have mid damage and can stack multiple out of kit heals. Werewolf doesn't have that luxury.

dark_hunterxmg · June 2

hoangdz wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Also, why aren't you posting your own numbers? Why is it always someone else's?

That's actually funny coming from you. Why aren't you posting your own numbers if you think WW is fine? Why is it always us doing the work while you and your WW friends are there pretending that this is the status-quo and we're required to do the burden of proof?

You are the ones trying to get Werewolf nerfed, not me.

So far the majority of numbers the that are getting pushed have been produced from one person. That person isn't even in this conversation.

hoangdz · June 2

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Also, why aren't you posting your own numbers? Why is it always someone else's?

That's actually funny coming from you. Why aren't you posting your own numbers if you think WW is fine? Why is it always us doing the work while you and your WW friends are there pretending that this is the status-quo and we're required to do the burden of proof?

You are the ones trying to get Werewolf nerfed, not me.

So far the majority of numbers the that are getting pushed have been produced from one person. That person isn't even in this conversation.

This is the PTS, where both you and I are equally responsible for backing up our claims. Yes, we are the ones trying to get WW nerfed, and we have actually provided plenty of in-game evidence. You and your WW friends on the other hand have only been relying almost entirely on our data and picking them apart. That doesn't make your case stronger. If you state "There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals" yet we've shown that 45k-50k HP builds with HP scaling heals are doing 7-8k DPS while being unkillable in the hands of a good player, you need to show proof on your end that HP scaling heal doesn't make a good player unkillable. Of course, you would have to also match our benchmark 7-8k DPS as well, so good luck with that.

Wuuffyy · June 2

hoangdz wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Also, why aren't you posting your own numbers? Why is it always someone else's?

That's actually funny coming from you. Why aren't you posting your own numbers if you think WW is fine? Why is it always us doing the work while you and your WW friends are there pretending that this is the status-quo and we're required to do the burden of proof?

You are the ones trying to get Werewolf nerfed, not me.

So far the majority of numbers the that are getting pushed have been produced from one person. That person isn't even in this conversation.

This is the PTS, where both you and I are equally responsible for backing up our claims. Yes, we are the ones trying to get WW nerfed, and we have actually provided plenty of in-game evidence. You and your WW friends on the other hand have only been relying almost entirely on our data and picking them apart. That doesn't make your case stronger. If you state "There is nothing wrong with health scaling heals" yet we've shown that 45k-50k HP builds with HP scaling heals are doing 7-8k DPS while being unkillable in the hands of a good player, you need to show proof on your end that HP scaling heal doesn't make a good player unkillable. Of course, you would have to also match our benchmark 7-8k DPS as well, so good luck with that.

Here was my contribution where I have posted the numbers compared to live and a simple analysis of each skill using a controlled test for demonstration, etc.

You can also simply go through the werewolf skills on either PTS or live to see that werewolf has no burst in kit if you need also: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692088/werewolf-tooltips-pvp-significantly-nerfed-from-live-proof

@Dark_hunter is absolutely right that health does not make you tanky. I don’t agree or necessarily like the health stack myself but it’s very clear to me that this is ZoS’ current and intended view on how werewolves should build for efficiency… me having 6-9k sustained DPS with this much health is borderline intentional at this point if ‘damage stacking’ outside of health (once again, disclaimer: with Signet as it was acknowledged however seemingly not changed)

Signet is an outlier with basically no real drawbacks and then trailing very far behind them are Huntsman which is extremely gimmicky outside of a 1 v 1 and very much serves to situationally hinder your gameplay and Selene’s which is a proc set very much known to miss in PvP due to long activation time for stationary area. This has been affirmed by parses throughout the forums in various posts in PvE.

As for the 6-8k bit- currently warden pureclass is also doing by essentially spamming force pulse basically alone with Signet (I believe a few parses in this thread specifically however you can scour the last 2 pages on PTS to easily find them), for example.

However both this spec and something like DK, etc. which is parsing similarity 6K+ also has burst and bi-sustain (in case of DK or rather most likely any upcoming reworked classes) baked into kit which is far more lethal in my opinion.