Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure, but I think werewolf is a decent support DPS in endgame PvE.

This is the support werewolf DPS setup our team is currently discussing. It utilizes Warden's Tundra Maw to grant the raid Major Brittle, and because werewolf can use Ferocious Roar to grant the raid Major Courage, Minor Force, and Feed Frenzy, and trigger Alkosh, one werewolf can essentially provide the raid with five buffs/debuffs, and basically only requires pressing four abilities, since Bloody Gnash is only used during the execution phase.


I forgot to use Bloody Gnash during the execution phase this time, so the DPS was lower, but 127K support is still very high even in live servers.

That’s a melee range only, little-to-no actual cleave DD. If you think for a second that just because you’re running support sets that this will be applicable everywhere, you’ll soon find out. A group doesn’t care about the amount of buttons you’re pressing at the end of the day.

It’s great to run support sets but as nerfs (you’re running Signet, let’s be real this thing’s days are numbered) come rolling in and your DPS is lowered, and you’re still melee with almost 0 cleave… you’re gonna be hard pressed for someone outside of your group to take you.

As far as I’m aware, most healers have little issue providing major courage to the group and minor courage is on both a scribing skill and Arc.

p.s. you can carboload a standard DD with these types of buffs as well AND still have cleave. Before subclass, each class provided its own buff as well.

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

-7m come AoE is a joke for cleave. This is coupled with literally no other meaningful AoE skills (one of your AoE skills is a reduced execute dot without an initial impact). Reminder that beam damage looks like —————— and werewolf claws are —-.

-127k is not impressive, I mean the ‘nerf werewolf’ calls to get this lower, Signet or no, don’t stop either.

-Subbing out minor force and reducing dependency on those sets is great but there are so many variables as to whether the werewolf player playing can even pull that much (you’d be surprised how the general population works… they mess up ARC roto or don’t build correctly) or whether the vast majority of support players are going to have a werewolf-melee-cleave-raid-player-in-my-group setup.

If you’re hyper organized and very good comp and don’t mind a support DD with no cleave and 120k dps post-nerf just so you can swap out a couple of easy-to-proc staple sets and effects, then you’ll probably be okay. I also imagine it’ll be great in dungeon content where healers are scarce and buff overlap doesn’t matter nearly as much in the grand scheme of things.

Glad you’re enjoying it but it would be disingenuous to ignore the ‘problems’ it has now and on the horizon. Additionally, it’s a handful of heavy handed nerfs away from being a meme spec in any content. Heavy handed nerfs that something like reworked DK or the next class will NEVER receive.

Werewolf is a melee class (?), so comparing it to Arc isn't entirely fair. A more ideal comparison would be New-DK's Engulfing Dragonfire. However, I support providing Arc-like shields or damage reduction for melee channeling abilities like Claw Fury, as melee combat is riskier, a point I've made elsewhere.

I don't deny that Werewolf as a pure DPS is still inferior to the mainstream, just as Werewolf tanks and healers are still relatively weak. But it's not entirely uncompetitive, as it requires fewer skills to use than other classes. And compared to the live servers, Werewolf has gone from being completely unable to reach the endgame to now having the opportunity to be a support DPS or even a pure DPS, which is a significant improvement.

I think you're worrying a bit too much. Don't forget that the developers have already promised in "Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns" to continue to pay attention to the balance issues of werewolf and improve the taunting experience. If it were in the past, such as U35 or U46, I would have thought it was just empty talk, but the team's performance in U49 is indeed much more reassuring, and they have indeed made adjustments to many of the feedback received in U49 in U50.

Have those who complain that werewolf is too weak in PvE actually played on the test server?

Werewolf's strength in PvE is absolutely top-tier. A non-class build that only needs 5+1 skills boasts extremely high damage and team support capabilities, yet some people are still complaining about the lack of AoE? Werewolf's AoE capabilities are already higher than most HA builds.

Moreover, the inability to use ultimate skills is almost not a problem for PvE tanks. Besides not being able to trigger sets like Saxhleel, tanks have other options, such as Lucent, Pearlescent, and Crimson. Furthermore, with the resurgence of pure classes in U50, more builds will face the problem of lacking penetration and critical damage. Therefore, the Minor Force provided by WW and the Lucent and Crimson buffs/debuffs provided through sets will be even more important.

In my opinion, WW should even be nerfed in PvE. Allowing a single-slot "pseudo-class" to have such high DPS and team buffs will inevitably cause problems sooner or later.

coop500 wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

-7m come AoE is a joke for cleave. This is coupled with literally no other meaningful AoE skills (one of your AoE skills is a reduced execute dot without an initial impact). Reminder that beam damage looks like —————— and werewolf claws are —-.

-127k is not impressive, I mean the ‘nerf werewolf’ calls to get this lower, Signet or no, don’t stop either.

-Subbing out minor force and reducing dependency on those sets is great but there are so many variables as to whether the werewolf player playing can even pull that much (you’d be surprised how the general population works… they mess up ARC roto or don’t build correctly) or whether the vast majority of support players are going to have a werewolf-melee-cleave-raid-player-in-my-group setup.

If you’re hyper organized and very good comp and don’t mind a support DD with no cleave and 120k dps post-nerf just so you can swap out a couple of easy-to-proc staple sets and effects, then you’ll probably be okay. I also imagine it’ll be great in dungeon content where healers are scarce and buff overlap doesn’t matter nearly as much in the grand scheme of things.

Glad you’re enjoying it but it would be disingenuous to ignore the ‘problems’ it has now and on the horizon. Additionally, it’s a handful of heavy handed nerfs away from being a meme spec in any content. Heavy handed nerfs that something like reworked DK or the next class will NEVER receive.

Werewolf is a melee class (?), so comparing it to Arc isn't entirely fair. A more ideal comparison would be New-DK's Engulfing Dragonfire. However, I support providing Arc-like shields or damage reduction for melee channeling abilities like Claw Fury, as melee combat is riskier, a point I've made elsewhere.

I don't deny that Werewolf as a pure DPS is still inferior to the mainstream, just as Werewolf tanks and healers are still relatively weak. But it's not entirely uncompetitive, as it requires fewer skills to use than other classes. And compared to the live servers, Werewolf has gone from being completely unable to reach the endgame to now having the opportunity to be a support DPS or even a pure DPS, which is a significant improvement.

I think you're worrying a bit too much. Don't forget that the developers have already promised in "Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns" to continue to pay attention to the balance issues of werewolf and improve the taunting experience. If it were in the past, such as U35 or U46, I would have thought it was just empty talk, but the team's performance in U49 is indeed much more reassuring, and they have indeed made adjustments to many of the feedback received in U49 in U50.

The point here isn't that WW is weak now, but that it is indeed just a few misguided nerfs away from meme status again, and because it's not a proper class and only a one bar playstyle, nobody will care if it becomes a meme playstyle again.

All class that gets a few misguided nerfs away from joke status again—this isn't just happening in WW.
There's no point in worrying about an uncertain future, especially now that ZOS has stated it will continue to monitor WW strength.
If you really care about WW, let wait until u50 to live and organize a trial team to prove WW is too weak than other class on trial combat.

Also ignoring the second half of my comment, in which a class receives much more protesting and care from the general playerbase to push back. Meanwhile, most people will not care if werewolf goes back to sucking, and some will even celebrate it because they hold a weird hatred for werewolf.

I think the Werewolf refresh is a big step in the right direction, and I really hope it does not get pulled back too hard before it has a chance to breathe on live.

The concern for me is separating “Werewolf is finally viable” from “a few specific external interactions might be overtuned.” If the issue is Signet, class mastery, a mythic, or a particular PvP interaction, those should be adjusted directly. Please do not solve that by nerfing the core Werewolf kit back into meme status.

Werewolf still has real tradeoffs: it is melee, it has limited bar flexibility, it loses normal ultimates, it has awkward cleave compared to several mainstream PvE options, and tank/support versions still need clearer purpose. A 7m cone or strong single-target parse does not automatically mean the playstyle is overpowered in actual content.

My biggest asks would be:

Keep PvE and PvP tuning separate where possible, especially through Battle Spirit.
Tune outlier gear/class mastery interactions without weakening the base form.
Improve or clarify Werewolf’s AoE/cleave and melee survivability expectations.
Make the tank/support direction more explicit if that is intended.
Consider toning down or making optional the heavy glow/morph markings for players who care about the werewolf fantasy and visuals.
Overall, I want Werewolf to be strong enough to be taken seriously without needing one narrow setup to justify its existence. This refresh finally makes the playstyle feel relevant again, and I would rather see careful targeted tuning than another cycle where Werewolf becomes usable for a patch and then disappears again.

Blood Claws will need to be improved significantly is we are actually expecting to use it with any success. It fails to connect to the target more than half the time and the 6 second timer it laughable. You'll have to spam it to keep it up due to it missing constantly.

Decimus wrote: »

Having tested a lot of different werewolf setups now, here's a bit of additional feedback from PvP point of view:

Some solutions:

1. Rip and Tear heal should either only proc in execute, or scale with offensive stats (especially Stamina/Magicka) rather than Maximum Health.
2. Warden rework in U51, so hopefully those class masteries (and SPS) can get tuned down. Changing Rip and Tear scaling would go a long way in making warden werewolves more balanced as well.
3. Bloodclaws is not a particularly fun ability to use, I'd recommend changing the heal here to scale with offensive stats (particularly Stamina/Magicka) as well and maybe increase the duration to 10 seconds again.

No, honestly. What do you play? Let’s set all your heals to only proc in execute as well. Sounds like an awesome and amazing time!

Our burst heal spammable (reminder: this skill remains to be the only on-demand heal and we of course cannot access healing soul+ vigor) was nerfed by 30% from live and you’re very right Bloodclaws feels awful right now and would be the only other supplement for healing-without-being-directly-on-enemy.

I could MAYBE get behind having PvP values scale from the NORMAL wep/spell damage value scaling but NOT mag/stam only, that’s just silly and yet another unnecessary limitation just for making things worse on wolf (stam/mag stacking has severe diminishing returns/horrible efficiency compared to wep/spell stacking like EVERYONE else can/does do).

Decimus wrote: »

Also I think there's been a misunderstanding... I'm not saying the burst heal should be only usable in execute, just the burst heal from the spammable damage ability. Or alternatively it shouldn't scale based off of health, but offensive stats

No confusion. If they reduced my burst heal from live I need that healing supplemented elsewhere. Doesn’t need to be health-based but it sure as hekk can’t be ‘execute only’.

It wasn’t sufficient on live by itself and it wouldn’t be now with its 30% reduced value. You say scales ‘so much better than healing soul’ and leave out the fact they scale in vastly different ways. Or vigor and healing soul trumping that heal in spades for a damage build.

If you want a more comparable value then Hircine’s rage is wep/spell based and scales woefully weaker due to early PTS changes gutting the wep/spell they anticipated it needing a ‘reduced value under breath of life’ for.

Last time I checked, healing soul is around or above a breath of life after factoring in major vitality so that’s undoubtedly better.

Add to this Hircine’s fortitude tooltip with a ‘normal healthbar’ (keep in mind like everyone else who decides to build health I am trading out that for damage indirectly) of around 30k in PvP (this is what I consider to be ‘normal’ with 35k ‘pushing it’) doesn’t have a crazy tooltip at all especially when you consider that it is the only on-demand heal wolf has.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Also I think there's been a misunderstanding... I'm not saying the burst heal should be only usable in execute, just the burst heal from the spammable damage ability. Or alternatively it shouldn't scale based off of health, but offensive stats

No confusion. If they reduced my burst heal from live I need that healing supplemented elsewhere. Doesn’t need to be health-based but it sure as hekk can’t be ‘execute only’.

It wasn’t sufficient on live by itself and it wouldn’t be now with its 30% reduced value. You say scales ‘so much better than healing soul’ and leave out the fact they scale in vastly different ways. Or vigor and healing soul trumping that heal in spades for a damage build.

If you want a more comparable value then Hircine’s rage is wep/spell based and scales woefully weaker due to early PTS changes gutting the wep/spell they anticipated it needing a ‘reduced value under breath of life’ for.

Last time I checked, healing soul is around or above a breath of life after factoring in major vitality so that’s undoubtedly better.

Add to this Hircine’s fortitude tooltip with a ‘normal healthbar’ (keep in mind like everyone else who decides to build health I am trading out that for damage indirectly) of around 30k in PvP (this is what I consider to be ‘normal’ with 35k ‘pushing it’) doesn’t have a crazy tooltip at all especially when you consider that it is the only on-demand heal wolf has.

You are not supposed to use Hircine's Fortitude (or any health scaling heal, such as Polar Wind or Blood of the Green Dragon) with "normal" health pool, you are supposed to use the other morph which falls far behind (just like any build at 30-35k health) since it scales based off of offensive stats.

Again, I'm not saying they need to touch Hircine's Fortitude in any way, but having a 16,8k tooltip heal on your spammable when building around what already gives you stronger healing and tankiness is not healthy design for anything and it'd be much better if the heal on the spammable scaled based off of maximum stamina/magicka.

Werewolf does not have any damage problems when building for maximum health, you're basically now playing with skill layout that is optimized for competitive PvE DPS on PTS (plenty of werewolf parses doing 200k+), just sacrificing a little bit of your offensive stats to also become nearly unkillable. If you don't build around maximum health and try to fight a werewolf who does, you will die and have zero chance of surviving due to the huge survivability difference favoring whoever builds around maximum health instead.

That is the state of werewolf balance right now - could be easily fixed by removing some of the health scaling in favor of offensive stats scaling instead.

Regarding Hircine's Fortitude on live vs PTS, you actually get more healing out of it on PTS as a sorc werewolf since you also proc Blood Magic whenever you cast it for another 5,4k tooltip heal and get Major Vitality for both. Without the Class Mastery the difference would only be around 10% in favor of Live server, where werewolves building 50k health are categorically only troll tanks... and that's even without infinite sustain or another 17k tooltip burst heal on their spammables.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Werewolf does not have any damage problems

It definitely does have ‘damage problems’- go play a wolf with DK reworked ‘class masteries’ (as this is the bench mark for a ‘tuned’ class mastery) or subclass for passives and without procs to see this for yourself come live patch.

Unless you’re juicing a bunch of proc sets with the generic buffs provided, each and every tooltip received a 20-30% dps nerf and now has 1 sec and 6 second dots down from live… the only way you’ll have a semblance of live damage, via a non-proc/mastery wolf will be to take up to a 12% increased damage hit and a significant healing nerf by running Hircine’s Rage.

Fine and great I can run 40-50k health… that just makes the problem for damage I described all the worse (as I attribute stam, which provides meager damage increases, into health/ or rather health sets). If you consider live wolf lackluster on damage, then this one outside of its ideal conditions is more of the same… PvE obviously excluded of course.

I did, this is what you can do on skeleton dummy:


...it actually does a bit more damage than sorc werewolf, but of course gets less healing & sustain so you need to click the burst heal a bit more often.



...templar werewolf is within the same range, warden one does around 20% more damage (and is 15% tankier). Necro wolf was quite significantly behind & arcanist I didn't even bother with.


For comparison to non-werewolf builds, you get anywhere between 40-60k on the skeleton dummy with any viable PvP build.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

What happens if they say wolf isn’t compatible for balance with masteries down the line also and axe that… even before they’re seemingly toned down 1 by 1 after each rework??

I think there was a dev post where it was stated they don't want to disable class masteries, so we'll just have to wait until Update 51 for Warden (and hopefully SPS) to be tuned down (or we can all play max health sorc/DK/templar etc wolves to stalemate vs warden wolves, who'll have less stalemates vs other builds on average due to higher damage).

This doesn't solve the fundamental issues with how werewolves are supposed to be built (Healthy traits, Health enchants etc) though.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

What if the nerf-callers rip and tear proc sets/values away from PvP (they’re in the middle of trying along with gunning for status effects)??

I have no issue with proc sets (very rare to see me make a build without one even) unless they're grossly overtuned - what is/isn't overtuned is simple mathematics. If someone is getting 50% of their damage from status effects, if something is run on every top parsing PvE setup etc... then it might be a little bit overtuned.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

///

I agree with you on the potential for health based healing to be converted to standardized damage scaling in PvP only (separate scaling values between the 2 modes… AT LEAST on claws and rip… I feel that Hircine’s fortitude should maintain its health-based healing even at its current reduced value)

This is what makes sense and will serve to make my stam matter again as well (which I have no problem with)… but that isn’t to dismiss the fact that many devoted werewolf players have health-based builds and werewolf has had health scaling for years now that they’ve learned to build, play, and enjoy-

me personally, I run 30k health on wolf for live- using movement and avoidance of direct fights with DKs is the only way I survive. I stack as much as I can into damage and even then… it’s not enough on many players. I have no burst, I cannot burst you down and you can block/cleanse/and or out heal my pressure.

Yeah, werewolf builds running 30k health aren't a problem on PTS either and feel fun to play - you don't have infinite stalemate fights. Builds stacking 50k health just happen to dominate those builds and make them feel terrible to play.

Hircine's Fortitude is fine and to be honest they could even buff Hircine's Rage (maybe make it provide some healing based on damage done during the duration of the 12% damage taken/done debuff/buff), but the biggest culprit behind max health setups overperforming is the max health scaling on spammable that makes it possible to just stay offensive forever behind 50k health and permablock

This scaling on maximum stamina/magicka instead would be a nerf to max health setups, a buff to survivability on damage builds and wouldn't buff warden werewolf (since they get weapon/spell damage, not stamina/magicka).

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hey Decimus, love the insta-votes you get any time you post a response. Totally not related to running a counter-point/nerf werewolf point or anything.

Quite literally minutes after you posted in the 20 some page, antiquated thread->



Must be nice. Wonder why that happens.

Kinda like the person that just posted a bunch of 1-sentence, obvious bait posts back to back that had the same. They remove the most obvious one but it is/was on page 22 and that can actually be found via the imagine I have here (trying to state the obvious-with-context confirmation bias within this thread):

test

Anyways, your first point was immediately disingenuous to responding to mine. This doesn’t discredit anything but it is at the very least in bad taste->



You know why I said PvE excluded? The shift in both the amounts and activation mechanisms for werewolf basics are DRASTICALLY different in PvE. This is in addition to a bigger increase in the wep/spell passive, and a healthier array of duration.

Can’t tell if you’re running Signet but it seems like anyone who disagrees with me can only ever post a parse with Signet… considering the values on your status effects I’m of course and understands VERY suspicious of this (which I once again point out for ZOS and ZOS alone… giving context I feel is needed). Regardless, I’ll settle the next best damage sets/mythics in that slot for you as they will undoubtedly nerf that mythic… Selene or Huntsman. Both of which obviously and severely lack reliability in PvP scenarios, Huntsman in particular outside of a 1 v 1 and it ONLY goes down from there… by A LOT.

///

It’s very safe to say between running Hircine’s Rage which increases your damage taken, values and duration being heavily adjusted in PvE, Landslide (tied to mastery for increase) taking a significant amount of time commitment to build and maintain in PvP (comparatively), werewolf providing a vast array of buffs that significantly inflate the skeletal dummies parse amounts, and what I’ve mentioned with Signet (in addition to the ‘next best’ Huntsman/Selene’s)…

PvE is not a good indicator anymore of what werewolf is/isn't capable of ‘with a PvP build’. Not exactly sure how you failed to reason this either, even if completely disregarding the original point I made… that you quoted.

It's a public forum, anyone can agree/disagree with posts (including yours). I'll give you an "insightful" to prove that.

When you post on a thread it goes on top of the forum page and is easily visible.


Werewolf plays literally the same everywhere, no matter which class you pick - the only difference is what passives you gain. The only time there's a drastic difference is if you're not building around Max Health (in which case the build sucks) or if you try to run sub-optimal sets or morphs (hence why everyone is Pack Leader+Shattered Paths) - and these are things I'd like to see changed.

I'm not going to run some terrible build and say "oh look, werewolf is fine just all close your eyes and ignore the ones with properly min-maxed builds" - of course not. I'd rather point at the actual problems, such as excessive max health scaling on werewolf abilities. By not being specific and properly identifying problems you get things like Berserker DoT/Bloodclaws duration nerfs.

I've also tested other mythics, Oakensoul has also felt good (better even on non-max Health), but ultimately Shattered Paths is the best performing mythic. Gaze of Sithis, DDF, Monomyth... should also work absolutely fine. Selene's is a terrible set for PvP and I wouldn't recommend it (or any monster set) over running a mythic on werewolf.


Skeleton Dummy parses can be used to have a rough estimate of damage potential in PvP as well if you're allowed to parse. Whether you're allowed to parse can be figured out by looking at your max health and passives. It's quite simple and useful information, but I'll do some duels on templar max health werewolf tomorrow to put this nonsense to rest.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hey Decimus, love the insta-votes you get any time you post a response. Totally not related to running a counter-point/nerf werewolf point or anything.

Quite literally minutes after you posted in the 20 some page, antiquated thread->



Must be nice. Wonder why that happens.

Kinda like the person that just posted a bunch of 1-sentence, obvious bait posts back to back that had the same. They remove the most obvious one but it is/was on page 22 and that can actually be found via the imagine I have here (trying to state the obvious-with-context confirmation bias within this thread):

test

Anyways, your first point was immediately disingenuous to responding to mine. This doesn’t discredit anything but it is at the very least in bad taste->



You know why I said PvE excluded? The shift in both the amounts and activation mechanisms for werewolf basics are DRASTICALLY different in PvE. This is in addition to a bigger increase in the wep/spell passive, and a healthier array of duration.

Can’t tell if you’re running Signet but it seems like anyone who disagrees with me can only ever post a parse with Signet… considering the values on your status effects I’m of course and understands VERY suspicious of this (which I once again point out for ZOS and ZOS alone… giving context I feel is needed). Regardless, I’ll settle the next best damage sets/mythics in that slot for you as they will undoubtedly nerf that mythic… Selene or Huntsman. Both of which obviously and severely lack reliability in PvP scenarios, Huntsman in particular outside of a 1 v 1 and it ONLY goes down from there… by A LOT.

///

It’s very safe to say between running Hircine’s Rage which increases your damage taken, values and duration being heavily adjusted in PvE, Landslide (tied to mastery for increase) taking a significant amount of time commitment to build and maintain in PvP (comparatively), werewolf providing a vast array of buffs that significantly inflate the skeletal dummies parse amounts, and what I’ve mentioned with Signet (in addition to the ‘next best’ Huntsman/Selene’s)…

PvE is not a good indicator anymore of what werewolf is/isn't capable of ‘with a PvP build’. Not exactly sure how you failed to reason this either, even if completely disregarding the original point I made… that you quoted.

It's a public forum, anyone can agree/disagree with posts (including yours). I'll give you an "insightful" to prove that.

When you post on a thread it goes on top of the forum page and is easily visible.


1 Werewolf plays literally the same everywhere, no matter which class you pick - the only difference is what passives you gain. The only time there's a drastic difference is if you're not building around Max Health (in which case the build sucks) or if you try to run sub-optimal sets or morphs (hence why everyone is Pack Leader+Shattered Paths) - and these are things I'd like to see changed.

2 I'm not going to run some terrible build and say "oh look, werewolf is fine just all close your eyes and ignore the ones with properly min-maxed builds" - of course not. I'd rather point at the actual problems, such as excessive max health scaling on werewolf abilities. By not being specific and properly identifying problems you get things like Berserker DoT/Bloodclaws duration nerfs.

3 I've also tested other mythics, Oakensoul has also felt good (better even on non-max Health), but ultimately Shattered Paths is the best performing mythic. Gaze of Sithis, DDF, Monomyth... should also work absolutely fine. Selene's is a terrible set for PvP and I wouldn't recommend it (or any monster set) over running a mythic on werewolf.


4 Skeleton Dummy parses can be used to have a rough estimate of damage potential in PvP as well if you're allowed to parse. Whether you're allowed to parse can be figured out by looking at your max health and passives. It's quite simple and useful information, but I'll do some duels on templar max health werewolf tomorrow to put this nonsense to rest.

1 - Right, and you don’t get that by advocating for a pickaxe to the floor. If our heals don’t meet vigor and healing soul…

…AND the outlier for BIG HEALS is adjusted to wep/spell mix or glob-forbid max stam/mag only (which is the worst case scenario obvious to anyone remotely aware of how useful those resources are in min max building nowadays)… if they were to adjust these to weapon and spell values, it is highly unlikely they would be made remotely close to a PTS wolf at 45-50k health… even on a full wep and spell damage build.

´

...so everyone would still just build Maximum Health+Weapon Damage in this scenario because you have plenty of Max Health scaling left still between the burst heal, Bloodclaws & Class Masteries. The problem is that people are not incentivized to build around anything other than Max Health, so a simple solution to me sounds like providing more value from putting your attributes into Stamina/Magicka specifically. Your Weapon/Spell Damage after all is the same whether you have 50k Health (Healthy Jewelry, Health Enchants etc) or 30k, it's just that the latter dies almost instantly.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

2- Right, you’d rather showcase a handful of the most busted builds you can get your hands on, say ‘this is what I found’, and say nothing on how you reached that point. Like you said earlier, this was used to get to the 1 second DoT territory that woefully missed the mark on actual issues while simply making the werewolf experience worse for it as a whole.

How did I reach that point? Testing dozens if not hundreds of different setups on PTS and dueling players - good players, less good players, werewolves, DKs, Sorcs... you name it.

I happened to stream all of this too so it's quite well documented, can open any VOD of mine from the last week or so.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

3- Monomyth is broken for werewolf… die once and you have to go through hoops for damage buff outside of ‘normal play’, you seem to not actually know about the spec right now outside of the meta-meta based on this and a few other things you’ve said. Gaze isn’t damage. Selene’s was mentioned as it’s another great ‘parse monster’ set.

Sorry, you lost me at dying on werewolf - that doesn't really happen if you stack health.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

4- Skeleton cannot be used as a rough dummy, just as I mentioned. There are vastly different systems in the case of werewolf now sognicantly altering performance between PvE to PvP

You can compare the damage with the very same gear/skills being used on the very same dummy between different classes, especially when there aren't battle spirit specific nerfs on class masteries used by werewolf. This gives you a rough idea of the PvP potential for damage on each.

The only thing you account for is SPS (which you run on every werewolf anyway) battle spirit debuff, but you can figure out it's best in slot by doing duels with it and comparing it to alternatives.

Decimus wrote: »

Yeah, werewolf builds running 30k health aren't a problem on PTS either and feel fun to play - you don't have infinite stalemate fights. Builds stacking 50k health just happen to dominate those builds and make them feel terrible to play.

I can confirm this. I have personally fought @Decimus on his WW for the past couple days while he was testing different variations of that spec. His 30k HP WW dealt a lot of damage but it was actually possible to be killed. Fights felt more fair. In contrast, his 45k+ HP WW was practically impossible for me to kill, and I had to build extremely stalemate-y just to have a chance of surviving (north of 45k resists in addition to Conservation of Energy). Without these measures, I would stand no chance killing or surviving him.

We should not ever incentivize max HP scaling in PvP. It is fine and all if building max HP significantly reduces your damage output, but that is simply NOT the case on PTS. Builds with 45-50k HP are doing upwards of 7k+ DPS, which completely breaks the game and everything theory-crafting stands for.

Humbly requesting, if possible, to please get some adjustments to Shapeshifter's Chain alongside the WW rework. It's The werewolf mythic but could use some love, imo.