U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

ZhuJiuyin · May 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure, but I think werewolf is a decent support DPS in endgame PvE.

This is the support werewolf DPS setup our team is currently discussing. It utilizes Warden's Tundra Maw to grant the raid Major Brittle, and because werewolf can use Ferocious Roar to grant the raid Major Courage, Minor Force, and Feed Frenzy, and trigger Alkosh, one werewolf can essentially provide the raid with five buffs/debuffs, and basically only requires pressing four abilities, since Bloody Gnash is only used during the execution phase.

I forgot to use Bloody Gnash during the execution phase this time, so the DPS was lower, but 127K support is still very high even in live servers.

That’s a melee range only, little-to-no actual cleave DD. If you think for a second that just because you’re running support sets that this will be applicable everywhere, you’ll soon find out. A group doesn’t care about the amount of buttons you’re pressing at the end of the day.

It’s great to run support sets but as nerfs (you’re running Signet, let’s be real this thing’s days are numbered) come rolling in and your DPS is lowered, and you’re still melee with almost 0 cleave… you’re gonna be hard pressed for someone outside of your group to take you.

As far as I’m aware, most healers have little issue providing major courage to the group and minor courage is on both a scribing skill and Arc.

p.s. you can carboload a standard DD with these types of buffs as well AND still have cleave. Before subclass, each class provided its own buff as well.

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

Wuuffyy · May 19

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

-7m come AoE is a joke for cleave. This is coupled with literally no other meaningful AoE skills (one of your AoE skills is a reduced execute dot without an initial impact). Reminder that beam damage looks like —————— and werewolf claws are —-.

-127k is not impressive, I mean the ‘nerf werewolf’ calls to get this lower, Signet or no, don’t stop either.

-Subbing out minor force and reducing dependency on those sets is great but there are so many variables as to whether the werewolf player playing can even pull that much (you’d be surprised how the general population works… they mess up ARC roto or don’t build correctly) or whether the vast majority of support players are going to have a werewolf-melee-cleave-raid-player-in-my-group setup.

If you’re hyper organized and very good comp and don’t mind a support DD with no cleave and 120k dps post-nerf just so you can swap out a couple of easy-to-proc staple sets and effects, then you’ll probably be okay. I also imagine it’ll be great in dungeon content where healers are scarce and buff overlap doesn’t matter nearly as much in the grand scheme of things.

Glad you’re enjoying it but it would be disingenuous to ignore the ‘problems’ it has now and on the horizon. Additionally, it’s a handful of heavy handed nerfs away from being a meme spec in any content. Heavy handed nerfs that something like reworked DK or the next class will NEVER receive.

ZhuJiuyin · May 19

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

-7m come AoE is a joke for cleave. This is coupled with literally no other meaningful AoE skills (one of your AoE skills is a reduced execute dot without an initial impact). Reminder that beam damage looks like —————— and werewolf claws are —-.

-127k is not impressive, I mean the ‘nerf werewolf’ calls to get this lower, Signet or no, don’t stop either.

-Subbing out minor force and reducing dependency on those sets is great but there are so many variables as to whether the werewolf player playing can even pull that much (you’d be surprised how the general population works… they mess up ARC roto or don’t build correctly) or whether the vast majority of support players are going to have a werewolf-melee-cleave-raid-player-in-my-group setup.

If you’re hyper organized and very good comp and don’t mind a support DD with no cleave and 120k dps post-nerf just so you can swap out a couple of easy-to-proc staple sets and effects, then you’ll probably be okay. I also imagine it’ll be great in dungeon content where healers are scarce and buff overlap doesn’t matter nearly as much in the grand scheme of things.

Glad you’re enjoying it but it would be disingenuous to ignore the ‘problems’ it has now and on the horizon. Additionally, it’s a handful of heavy handed nerfs away from being a meme spec in any content. Heavy handed nerfs that something like reworked DK or the next class will NEVER receive.

Werewolf is a melee class (?), so comparing it to Arc isn't entirely fair. A more ideal comparison would be New-DK's Engulfing Dragonfire. However, I support providing Arc-like shields or damage reduction for melee channeling abilities like Claw Fury, as melee combat is riskier, a point I've made elsewhere.

I don't deny that Werewolf as a pure DPS is still inferior to the mainstream, just as Werewolf tanks and healers are still relatively weak. But it's not entirely uncompetitive, as it requires fewer skills to use than other classes. And compared to the live servers, Werewolf has gone from being completely unable to reach the endgame to now having the opportunity to be a support DPS or even a pure DPS, which is a significant improvement.

I think you're worrying a bit too much. Don't forget that the developers have already promised in "Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns" to continue to pay attention to the balance issues of werewolf and improve the taunting experience. If it were in the past, such as U35 or U46, I would have thought it was just empty talk, but the team's performance in U49 is indeed much more reassuring, and they have indeed made adjustments to many of the feedback received in U49 in U50.

Wuuffyy · May 20

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I think you're worrying a bit too much. Don't forget that the developers have already promised in "Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns" to continue to pay attention to the balance issues of werewolf and improve the taunting experience. If it were in the past, such as U35 or U46, I would have thought it was just empty talk, but the team's performance in U49 is indeed much more reassuring, and they have indeed made adjustments to many of the feedback received in U49 in U50.

I’m worried for exactly this reason. Haha, if you knew how werewolf balance has worked over the last 10+ years, the fact that the balance change required heaps of ‘trade offs’ for us, and what transpired to get the week 1/week 2 nerfs and how that looked… you’d rightfully understand the concern.

Pinktraining · May 20

Have those who complain that werewolf is too weak in PvE actually played on the test server?

Werewolf's strength in PvE is absolutely top-tier. A non-class build that only needs 5+1 skills boasts extremely high damage and team support capabilities, yet some people are still complaining about the lack of AoE? Werewolf's AoE capabilities are already higher than most HA builds.

Moreover, the inability to use ultimate skills is almost not a problem for PvE tanks. Besides not being able to trigger sets like Saxhleel, tanks have other options, such as Lucent, Pearlescent, and Crimson. Furthermore, with the resurgence of pure classes in U50, more builds will face the problem of lacking penetration and critical damage. Therefore, the Minor Force provided by WW and the Lucent and Crimson buffs/debuffs provided through sets will be even more important.

In my opinion, WW should even be nerfed in PvE. Allowing a single-slot "pseudo-class" to have such high DPS and team buffs will inevitably cause problems sooner or later.

coop500 · May 20

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

-7m come AoE is a joke for cleave. This is coupled with literally no other meaningful AoE skills (one of your AoE skills is a reduced execute dot without an initial impact). Reminder that beam damage looks like —————— and werewolf claws are —-.

-127k is not impressive, I mean the ‘nerf werewolf’ calls to get this lower, Signet or no, don’t stop either.

-Subbing out minor force and reducing dependency on those sets is great but there are so many variables as to whether the werewolf player playing can even pull that much (you’d be surprised how the general population works… they mess up ARC roto or don’t build correctly) or whether the vast majority of support players are going to have a werewolf-melee-cleave-raid-player-in-my-group setup.

If you’re hyper organized and very good comp and don’t mind a support DD with no cleave and 120k dps post-nerf just so you can swap out a couple of easy-to-proc staple sets and effects, then you’ll probably be okay. I also imagine it’ll be great in dungeon content where healers are scarce and buff overlap doesn’t matter nearly as much in the grand scheme of things.

Glad you’re enjoying it but it would be disingenuous to ignore the ‘problems’ it has now and on the horizon. Additionally, it’s a handful of heavy handed nerfs away from being a meme spec in any content. Heavy handed nerfs that something like reworked DK or the next class will NEVER receive.

Werewolf is a melee class (?), so comparing it to Arc isn't entirely fair. A more ideal comparison would be New-DK's Engulfing Dragonfire. However, I support providing Arc-like shields or damage reduction for melee channeling abilities like Claw Fury, as melee combat is riskier, a point I've made elsewhere.

I don't deny that Werewolf as a pure DPS is still inferior to the mainstream, just as Werewolf tanks and healers are still relatively weak. But it's not entirely uncompetitive, as it requires fewer skills to use than other classes. And compared to the live servers, Werewolf has gone from being completely unable to reach the endgame to now having the opportunity to be a support DPS or even a pure DPS, which is a significant improvement.

I think you're worrying a bit too much. Don't forget that the developers have already promised in "Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns" to continue to pay attention to the balance issues of werewolf and improve the taunting experience. If it were in the past, such as U35 or U46, I would have thought it was just empty talk, but the team's performance in U49 is indeed much more reassuring, and they have indeed made adjustments to many of the feedback received in U49 in U50.

The point here isn't that WW is weak now, but that it is indeed just a few misguided nerfs away from meme status again, and because it's not a proper class and only a one bar playstyle, nobody will care if it becomes a meme playstyle again.

Pinktraining · May 20

coop500 wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

-7m come AoE is a joke for cleave. This is coupled with literally no other meaningful AoE skills (one of your AoE skills is a reduced execute dot without an initial impact). Reminder that beam damage looks like —————— and werewolf claws are —-.

-127k is not impressive, I mean the ‘nerf werewolf’ calls to get this lower, Signet or no, don’t stop either.

-Subbing out minor force and reducing dependency on those sets is great but there are so many variables as to whether the werewolf player playing can even pull that much (you’d be surprised how the general population works… they mess up ARC roto or don’t build correctly) or whether the vast majority of support players are going to have a werewolf-melee-cleave-raid-player-in-my-group setup.

If you’re hyper organized and very good comp and don’t mind a support DD with no cleave and 120k dps post-nerf just so you can swap out a couple of easy-to-proc staple sets and effects, then you’ll probably be okay. I also imagine it’ll be great in dungeon content where healers are scarce and buff overlap doesn’t matter nearly as much in the grand scheme of things.

Glad you’re enjoying it but it would be disingenuous to ignore the ‘problems’ it has now and on the horizon. Additionally, it’s a handful of heavy handed nerfs away from being a meme spec in any content. Heavy handed nerfs that something like reworked DK or the next class will NEVER receive.

Werewolf is a melee class (?), so comparing it to Arc isn't entirely fair. A more ideal comparison would be New-DK's Engulfing Dragonfire. However, I support providing Arc-like shields or damage reduction for melee channeling abilities like Claw Fury, as melee combat is riskier, a point I've made elsewhere.

I don't deny that Werewolf as a pure DPS is still inferior to the mainstream, just as Werewolf tanks and healers are still relatively weak. But it's not entirely uncompetitive, as it requires fewer skills to use than other classes. And compared to the live servers, Werewolf has gone from being completely unable to reach the endgame to now having the opportunity to be a support DPS or even a pure DPS, which is a significant improvement.

I think you're worrying a bit too much. Don't forget that the developers have already promised in "Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns" to continue to pay attention to the balance issues of werewolf and improve the taunting experience. If it were in the past, such as U35 or U46, I would have thought it was just empty talk, but the team's performance in U49 is indeed much more reassuring, and they have indeed made adjustments to many of the feedback received in U49 in U50.

The point here isn't that WW is weak now, but that it is indeed just a few misguided nerfs away from meme status again, and because it's not a proper class and only a one bar playstyle, nobody will care if it becomes a meme playstyle again.

All class that gets a few misguided nerfs away from joke status again—this isn't just happening in WW.
There's no point in worrying about an uncertain future, especially now that ZOS has stated it will continue to monitor WW strength.
If you really care about WW, let wait until u50 to live and organize a trial team to prove WW is too weak than other class on trial combat.

Wuuffyy · May 20

Pinktraining wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I believe Claw Fury deals 7m of cone AOE damage, and if you've noticed, this is actually today's analysis. Even using Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet instead of Signet yields similar DPS. Replacing Alkosh with other damage sets would further increase DPS.

Furthermore, with changes to the calculation method of Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet and other modifications, some builds will no longer use it, such as pure Sorc. Therefore, these builds will need other sources of Minor Force, which werewolf can provide.

Major Courage is indeed easy to maintain, but if it's provided by werewolf, healers can switch to other sets, such as Xoryn. This increases player freedom in gear selection.

In any case, from a PvE perspective, I'm quite satisfied with the current state of werewolf. While not top-tier, it's definitely easier to reach endgame (HM-Trials) with new-werewolf compared to live servers.

-7m come AoE is a joke for cleave. This is coupled with literally no other meaningful AoE skills (one of your AoE skills is a reduced execute dot without an initial impact). Reminder that beam damage looks like —————— and werewolf claws are —-.

-127k is not impressive, I mean the ‘nerf werewolf’ calls to get this lower, Signet or no, don’t stop either.

-Subbing out minor force and reducing dependency on those sets is great but there are so many variables as to whether the werewolf player playing can even pull that much (you’d be surprised how the general population works… they mess up ARC roto or don’t build correctly) or whether the vast majority of support players are going to have a werewolf-melee-cleave-raid-player-in-my-group setup.

If you’re hyper organized and very good comp and don’t mind a support DD with no cleave and 120k dps post-nerf just so you can swap out a couple of easy-to-proc staple sets and effects, then you’ll probably be okay. I also imagine it’ll be great in dungeon content where healers are scarce and buff overlap doesn’t matter nearly as much in the grand scheme of things.

Glad you’re enjoying it but it would be disingenuous to ignore the ‘problems’ it has now and on the horizon. Additionally, it’s a handful of heavy handed nerfs away from being a meme spec in any content. Heavy handed nerfs that something like reworked DK or the next class will NEVER receive.

Werewolf is a melee class (?), so comparing it to Arc isn't entirely fair. A more ideal comparison would be New-DK's Engulfing Dragonfire. However, I support providing Arc-like shields or damage reduction for melee channeling abilities like Claw Fury, as melee combat is riskier, a point I've made elsewhere.

I don't deny that Werewolf as a pure DPS is still inferior to the mainstream, just as Werewolf tanks and healers are still relatively weak. But it's not entirely uncompetitive, as it requires fewer skills to use than other classes. And compared to the live servers, Werewolf has gone from being completely unable to reach the endgame to now having the opportunity to be a support DPS or even a pure DPS, which is a significant improvement.

I think you're worrying a bit too much. Don't forget that the developers have already promised in "Addressing U50 PTS Combat & Ability Concerns" to continue to pay attention to the balance issues of werewolf and improve the taunting experience. If it were in the past, such as U35 or U46, I would have thought it was just empty talk, but the team's performance in U49 is indeed much more reassuring, and they have indeed made adjustments to many of the feedback received in U49 in U50.

The point here isn't that WW is weak now, but that it is indeed just a few misguided nerfs away from meme status again, and because it's not a proper class and only a one bar playstyle, nobody will care if it becomes a meme playstyle again.

All class that gets a few misguided nerfs away from joke status again—this isn't just happening in WW.
There's no point in worrying about an uncertain future, especially now that ZOS has stated it will continue to monitor WW strength.
If you really care about WW, let wait until u50 to live and organize a trial team to prove WW is too weak than other class on trial combat.

DPS is relative to the content you’re in and the team you’re with. Organize a vCR+3 trial with ALL werewolves next patch. Record it Mr. ‘Necros are OP and nightblades are the ‘worst class’ guy- more than happy to spend half a day chuckling at that one on and off.

coop500 · May 20

Also ignoring the second half of my comment, in which a class receives much more protesting and care from the general playerbase to push back. Meanwhile, most people will not care if werewolf goes back to sucking, and some will even celebrate it because they hold a weird hatred for werewolf.