Why Not Just Delete Subclassing

SolarRune · May 30

Or just implement a dps cap to go alongside the other caps

shadoza · May 30

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

It’s been a year, more and more players are just quitting the game. Every joke of ZoS just doubling down has been said. It’s not fun, it’s not immersive, it’s not what a majority of of players like, I just don’t understand why not walk it back. Same as hybridization.

I believe that the majority of the players are NOT min/maxers, that follow a strangers advice from a third-party source. I believe the majority of the players like to experiment with different combinations and reject being stuffed into a specific classification. I believe the only players subclassing troubles are the PvP players. In an MMORPG, PvP should be a side hustle ,not the focus of development.

Toanis · May 30

shadoza wrote: »

I believe the only players subclassing troubles are the PvP players. In an MMORPG, PvP should be a side hustle ,not the focus of development.

In this case it's mainly about PVE. Demanding everyone plays the beam-build of the month from <fansite> is an easy way for novice raid leaders to increase their PUG's chance of success. In PVP you can't do much when your teammates aren't up to scratch, and it only really matters in BGs anyway.

peacenote · May 30

Long quoted post:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I love the number of people who claim "there is no evidence that Subclassing made people leave the game!" while also stressing "Subclassing brought so many people back and the majority of people love it." You do realize that there's no evidence in that direction either, right?

Subclassing is here and it's not going anywhere, whether people want it here or not. "Please remove it!" is a stupid request and will never be taken seriously. But on the other hand, let's not pretend that "lol just don't use it!" is a valid argument either.

Tales of Tribute was not a popular addition, but it's easy to ignore. If you don't like it, you really don't have to engage with it at all. But that is simply no avoiding Subclassing - if you don't personally want to engage with it, you can't go into a PvP or PvE zone where no other people are using it. And with the balance the way it is, not using it places you at a severe disadvantage. It's the idea of showing up to a math exam without a calculator while everyone else has a computer giving them the answers - who do you think has a better chance of winning there?
"but but but lol you don't have to deal with other people!" It's an MMO. Full stop. Even if you don't personally play it as one. It is an MMO. You will be playing with or against other people.

No business is ever going to give us the direct data. But let's just look at some timelines to see if we can glean any information from things:
April 2025: Subclassing is announced and shown off on the Test server

April 2025: The PTS feedback thread about Subclassing is all about how it is completely unbalanced and many interactions (e.g. pet limits) are overlooked.

May 2025: ZOS releases their developer deep dive, telling players that it is intended that Subclassing have trade-offs and be on a similar power level to non-Subclassed builds. Players who have tested on PTS immediately counter that those claims are unequivocally false based on PTS data.

June 2025: Subclassing releases

July 2025: We get an entire forum thread asking about how Subclassing (and basegame Scribing) have affected our playstyle. The questions asked are written to be incredibly leading, as if it only wants to hear that the results were positive, and yet the thread's general feelings are mixed between people who absolutely love it and those who detest it. Balance is continually noted as a major problem.

September 2025: ESO asks players to fill out surveys about the Classes, notably stressing how they are seen in the absence of Subclassing.

December 2025: ZOS admits that Subclassing is objectively stronger than not "by a large margin for several reasons," and announces plans to put all other combat features on hold for two years while refreshing each Class one by one.

January 2026: The DK update is revealed, also saying the goal of all of the reworks is to make each line have skills for all roles, thereby reducing the ability to stack all skills/passives for one single role.

March 2025: We get the information about Class Mastery as a way to incentivize purclass builds.

Just looking at how things have gone, this does not scream "Subclassing was a wonderful thing that brought so many people to the game!" It really reads a lot closer to "Oh [snip], we need to UNO reverse this fast."

In a perfect world, the balance and refreshes would have been done before Subclassing so that Subclassing actually had pros and cons along the way (imagine that, needing to make choices in an RPG instead of getting all the benefits with none of the drawbacks). I'd even have then removed the petty restrictions Subclassing does have that are meaningless to a levelled character (double skill costs, low XP gain, and unnecessary restrictions on needing to keep a base line or not being able to take two lines of one class).
But the balance had to have been there first.
As it stands, the poor balance (which coerced people into Subclassing even if they didn't want to because they needed to stay competitive) really soured people on it in the first place.

@tomofhyrule I want to say I LOVE your post and how you researched and put together this timeline.

I always feel like we need one of these for any major debate on the forums.

I definitely agree with your entire post, and that the timeline illustrates that ZOS has either so much feedback that they realized they needed to address it, and/or that they could see internally that less people are playing and can connect it to sub-classing. I'd like to add, though, that the other thing that happened in this timeframe is that leadership visibly changed and they have been very vocal about changing strategies. Supporting article is here, and in this article from the new members of leadership they also mention again how subclassing highlighted issues with class identity. From that lens, the one thing I don't know, and the part of me that's always driven to be fair and put things into perspective, feels obligated to point out that I personally think ESO has had bigger blunders that has caused larger portions of the population to leave, such that I am unsure that it's accurate to paint subclassing as a disaster more worthy of deletion than, say, AwA or the U35 combat changes (which obviously would be just as unrealistic to consider at this point). I think some of ZOS's reaction and communication reflects the change in leadership as opposed to the epicness of the disaster, if that makes sense. Therefore, concluding that subclassing has its issues is obvious, while concluding that everyone hates it and it is a wholly worthless and destructive feature (which is the spirit of the OP's post imo) feels incorrect to me, even given the blatant statements of ZOS on how they acknowledge it has raised issues.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Subclassing is a balance problem not a system problem.

I only partially agree with this. I think there are issues with subclassing that make class identity and usability a challenge that are not just about balance, and if implementation had been smoother, even with the balance issues it wouldn't have felt quite so jarring.

For example, one of the most frustrating things I find with subclassing is how abilities that I strongly associate with my class are no longer available if I subclass. I'm not sure how often people swap abilities around, but I'm a healer main, and I do this all the time. For a specific build, to support a group, or to make it through questing on my own when I'm not healing, to give a few examples. If I know I'm a Templar, I always feel like I should always be able to pop on Breath of Life. It's a core Templar ability. Now, we know that the biggest thing about how subclassing is unbalanced and the primary reasons end gamers take different skill lines is for the passives. Stacking the right passives is how subclassers are so much stronger than others (besides the whole cleave/beam situation we've had going on forever). But no matter what we do, we can only have six abilities on our bar. So I don't really understand why we have to lose access to our other class abilities when we take a subclassing line. Personally I think you should lose access to the passives only, but not the abilities. This way, even when subclassed, your class can feel like your class because the flexibility that you have and can provide is somewhat based on the "extra" abilities you can swap in, which are limited to your class. I think class identity is an issue not only because you aren't as strong going pure class, but because when you subclass your class kit is now gutted. Due to this, I sometimes forget which character I am even using and what they can do because there is very little that is class-specific that is true, solid, and always there. Plus, I lean more on non-class abilities for my flexibility (like Fighter's Guild) which again makes every character feel more generic.

At any point we can also use any of the other skill lines; we don't have to choose between those. If we have Undaunted abilities on our bars, the Mage's guild abilities aren't suddenly inaccessible, for example. It just naturally balances because we are limited to the amount of abilities we can use at one time. Subclassing allows us to pull in skill lines and passives from other classes. It didn't necessarily have to force us to drop our other class abilities to do so.

Another reason this is frustrating and clunky is because add-ons like Dressing Room and Wizard's Wardrobe exist, and ZOS has done a lot to push us towards using one character for everything. (Or, at least, tip the scales much more heavily towards supporting players who prefer to play that way). Even though I love alts, I've embraced some of those conveniences to make it easier to do content on whatever character I'm using for that play session. So for example, my healers had all of these builds that made me a hybrid DPS, or a full DPS, swapping my ability bars and equipment in one click. Often that was enough to get through the content I was playing. Tweaking cp and morphs typically wasn't necessary. I often did this swap quickly, for just a few things, and then swapped back or to another build. Build better for thieving. Build better for healing. Build with a taunt so I could tank lightly. After subclassing dropped, all of those little mini-builds fail to load if my subclass build was active. I love the Armory feature, but it's good for things like changing from PvE to PvP. It's not quick or easy or convenient if you just want to swap for five minutes to put on heavy armor and a taunt to tank overland stuff. Plus we're limited on slots, and they cost crowns, so it's not practical to use it for those kinds of things. Anyway, my point is that so many of my mini setups were just ruined with subclassing, because they won't load if I'm missing abilities. Which I now am, often. If they were there, but just less effective because my passives were different, it would be much less annoying, and I would have a better tiered structure for "lite builds" vs. "full Armory builds."

(This is not subclassing exactly, but imo the fact that we can change morphs on the fly now, but it takes time and they don't both show as available so I can use my mini-builds with this feature, is also a miss. I found that after one or two times of using it, it just wasn't worth it, say, to swap orb morphs between trash and boss pulls as a healer because of the delay, and functionally I see no reason why we shouldn't be allowed to do this, at least in non-scored content. It would have made my character feel more useful and planning my builds more interesting, but is now just mostly a useless feature for me. But I digress.)

Because I took a long time to explain that one I won't add another example, but there are others. The design could have been better (and still could be improved) to be less... harsh.

Major_Mangle · May 30

The least ZOS could do is to rename it to multiclassing, because it´s by no means "subclassing" by traditional standards.

Gabriel_H · May 30

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The least ZOS could do is to rename it to multiclassing, because it´s by no means "subclassing" by traditional standards.

Sub is for substitute.

BagOfBadgers · May 30

I complete understand the feeling of others towards Sub-classing and how it was implemented, as in very poorly and I'm not going to defend it for that but it is optional, in my opinion and has given many more immersion in the game, as it gives them more of an Elder Scrolls feel.

I play in the Vet and some HM Trials + weekly scores and not heard anyone complain about sub classing, nope, Nada, no one, they were all happy that it gave them more DPS, better Tanks and Healers and so able to do more HM's and make the content easier. These are players that are starting on the Vet DLC's prog'ging through to Tri's, nor have seen any evidence in any of the guilds that I'm in of negative feeling towards it, TBH there has been a lot of empathy towards players who don't like it.

I have not witnessed any of the negativity or gatekeeping reported towards plays that don't want to subclass in this area, high end, you could call it, I guess? I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I have not seen any evidence of it personally. I don't think any of the players I know didn't sub their Trials toons, as they want to be the best they can and, for now, sub-classing allows that, there was and still will be no barrier to entry to non subbed toons. The bar wasn't raised to that you, MUST sub, or else, as the DPS levels before subbing were 100% acceptable for that content. We still all have our favourite toons that aren't subbed we just don't use them in this level of content, for now, as Class Mastery will make them viable again.

So there was an embracing of sub-classing as it made things better, eg, more access to difficult content and players used it as they want to be the best they can with the tools given. One of the 1st questions I see often from new to Vet players, is my “DPS/Tanking skill/Healing skill is low and I'm not sub classed, is that a problem?”, “No it's not” is the only answer I have ever seen, every one of those players that stuck around, in time got better and naturally move over to sub-classing, why would they not, do people want to hobble themselves on purpose?

Because of me being me and the restriction in my hands, I can't use some of the Mete sets well and use the 2nd best as I'm more constant with them. If a raid lead told me I MUST change or I can't run with them, I would walk, not through stubbornness BUT massive testing and knowledge that I know I'm doing the best I can. If a RL is telling you to sub and you don't want to, walk away, you're free to do what you want, but also, you don't have right to force others to run with you choices.

shadoza · May 31

Toanis wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

I believe the only players subclassing troubles are the PvP players. In an MMORPG, PvP should be a side hustle ,not the focus of development.

In this case it's mainly about PVE. Demanding everyone plays the beam-build of the month from <fansite> is an easy way for novice raid leaders to increase their PUG's chance of success. In PVP you can't do much when your teammates aren't up to scratch, and it only really matters in BGs anyway.

Why would anyone play that way? Sounds more like homework then entertainment.

Toanis · May 31

shadoza wrote: »

Toanis wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

I believe the only players subclassing troubles are the PvP players. In an MMORPG, PvP should be a side hustle ,not the focus of development.

In this case it's mainly about PVE. Demanding everyone plays the beam-build of the month from <fansite> is an easy way for novice raid leaders to increase their PUG's chance of success. In PVP you can't do much when your teammates aren't up to scratch, and it only really matters in BGs anyway.

Why would anyone play that way? Sounds more like homework then entertainment.

Same as any team sport. If you want the title, you have to be a team player.

Team implies that everyone is on the same page, though. If you don't want to do XYZ but the others are convinced that everyone needs to, you may be in the wrong team. Complaining that XYZ took the fun out of the game is one option...

shadoza · May 31

Toanis wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

Toanis wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

I believe the only players subclassing troubles are the PvP players. In an MMORPG, PvP should be a side hustle ,not the focus of development.

In this case it's mainly about PVE. Demanding everyone plays the beam-build of the month from <fansite> is an easy way for novice raid leaders to increase their PUG's chance of success. In PVP you can't do much when your teammates aren't up to scratch, and it only really matters in BGs anyway.

Why would anyone play that way? Sounds more like homework then entertainment.

Same as any team sport. If you want the title, you have to be a team player.

Team implies that everyone is on the same page, though. If you don't want to do XYZ but the others are convinced that everyone needs to, you may be in the wrong team. Complaining that XYZ took the fun out of the game is one option...

I will leave the argument to another. I cannot understand why anyone would follow a stranger through a game that they paid for themselves. I do not understand why a player would allow another to dictate when, how, and where to play a game that they paid for. I am not a follower. I am not a conformist. I am an individual with my own play style and preferences. If someone else wants to help a stranger enjoy their game by sacrificing free will on their side, that is one them, I cannot debate that concept more than to say it is not understood by me.
Play your way

Seraphayel · June 1

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Gabriel_H · June 1

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Nordstern · June 1

Going with class mastery is the right way. Most classes got really good mastery buffs and will outperform subclassing.

Heydan_Seegil · June 1

No, I like subclassing! I play a Necro-Knight but I've never put a single point in the criminal skills from Necromancer. I am an unwilling recipient of the curse of Necromancy due to my time in Cold Harbor and as a souless Vestige. That is the lasting scar I carry from Molag Bal! I've been working with Vanus Galerion to resist the evil temptation of those spells and skills from the Necromancer class that are criminal acts; which also happen to be all the damage skills. I was a toothless tank until subclassing. Sure, I was unkillable but it was practically impossible to kill anything myself within a reasonable time.

Please just because you don't like Subclass don't do this. Don't do this to me. I am doing all I can and I have followed all of Vanus Galerion's instructions. Don't completely vanish my ability to hone this curse into fueling other non-necromancy powers. I am not going to become a ***! (Ha, the term for doing stuff to dead bodies is censored!) Stop trying to force me to become one.

Roztlin45 · June 1

Sub classing is like testing pool water. At first it is really cold, but when jumping in all the way, you quickly get used to it. I don't really see the harm in it. As it seems to be a matter of preference. I have a dk fire mage..pure class.not for dps but for immersion. But I have dk that grew up in a trailer park in behind wayrest. So he is part dk ,warden( cockroach controller aka sub assault) and he smokes ,so of course part necromancer. Ya see, it's all a matter of perspective.

Seraphayel · June 1

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Class Mastery is exactly changing that with the upcoming patch. Some classes will be stronger in a pure build, some will be stronger in a mixed subclassed build. That means win win for everyone.

Gabriel_H · June 1

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Class Mastery is exactly changing that with the upcoming patch. Some classes will be stronger in a pure build, some will be stronger in a mixed subclassed build. That means win win for everyone.

DK is the only class that has been reworked thus far. Non-reworked classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds, even with the class masteries, which for most are lacklustre.

Luneca · June 2

Toanis wrote: »

In this case it's mainly about PVE. Demanding everyone plays the beam-build of the month from <fansite> is an easy way for novice raid leaders to increase their PUG's chance of success. In PVP you can't do much when your teammates aren't up to scratch, and it only really matters in BGs anyway.

You could just ignore them and find others to play with. People tell me I shouldn't be sieging so much in Cyro all the time. But I still siege anyway nearly 100% of the time.

At the end of the day you paid for an experience to be enjoyable. Why would you ever let someone dictate what you do with what you're paying for with your time and money? Time being the more important part, because you cannot ever get that back.

Seraphayel · June 2

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Class Mastery is exactly changing that with the upcoming patch. Some classes will be stronger in a pure build, some will be stronger in a mixed subclassed build. That means win win for everyone.

DK is the only class that has been reworked thus far. Non-reworked classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds, even with the class masteries, which for most are lacklustre.

This simply isn’t true anymore with the upcoming update where class masteries will benefit several pure-class-builds.

Gabriel_H · June 2

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Class Mastery is exactly changing that with the upcoming patch. Some classes will be stronger in a pure build, some will be stronger in a mixed subclassed build. That means win win for everyone.

DK is the only class that has been reworked thus far. Non-reworked classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds, even with the class masteries, which for most are lacklustre.

This simply isn’t true anymore with the upcoming update where class masteries will benefit several pure-class-builds.

The class masteries boost pure-classes from where they are now, but outside of one or two niche builds total pure-classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds. The current tranche of class masteries are not good enough.

Luneca · June 2

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Class Mastery is exactly changing that with the upcoming patch. Some classes will be stronger in a pure build, some will be stronger in a mixed subclassed build. That means win win for everyone.

DK is the only class that has been reworked thus far. Non-reworked classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds, even with the class masteries, which for most are lacklustre.

This simply isn’t true anymore with the upcoming update where class masteries will benefit several pure-class-builds.

The class masteries boost pure-classes from where they are now, but outside of one or two niche builds total pure-classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds. The current tranche of class masteries are not good enough.

I also don't understand how they conclude what they did. I've seen zero compelling reason to drop subclassing. The main one being the availability of buffs and flexibility that subclassing gives.

ZOS should never have reworked DK like they did and focused on providing more options in scribing first. It's crazy how half the classes don't have access to the same number of buffs as the other half, and are inferior because of the endless buff-nerf cycle where ZOS touched classes and skills over gear in the past years.

The current state of balance in the game is terrible. But we can't say that it's a new occurance or that it's surprising that it will still be terrible next patch.

Lastly, class masteries should have been general-purpose and not niche. Niche would be the option if the classes weren't so poorly balance vs each other and vs subclassed options.

My brother plays templar and joked that for him to give up subclassing in a PvP context, Templar would have to have a 5 effect auto cleanse over a timed interval as a mastery. I told him "that ain't happening" and we both laughed about it because we know that without something that powerful, it's a skip because we can use subclassing to build in a way that allows that to happen without the masteries or limitation of Templar's subpar skill toolkit.

Seraphayel · June 2

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Class Mastery is exactly changing that with the upcoming patch. Some classes will be stronger in a pure build, some will be stronger in a mixed subclassed build. That means win win for everyone.

DK is the only class that has been reworked thus far. Non-reworked classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds, even with the class masteries, which for most are lacklustre.

This simply isn’t true anymore with the upcoming update where class masteries will benefit several pure-class-builds.

The class masteries boost pure-classes from where they are now, but outside of one or two niche builds total pure-classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds. The current tranche of class masteries are not good enough.

But they are?

Some classes will be stronger with a pure build in U50, others will still be stronger with subclassing. "Still lag far behind" is also heavily exaggerated.

It also has been communicated several times that class masteries are subject to change so they can adjust pure builds and mixed builds constantly. I really don't see what your problem is with this approach.

Luneca wrote: »

My brother plays templar and joked that for him to give up subclassing in a PvP context, Templar would have to have a 5 effect auto cleanse over a timed interval as a mastery. I told him "that ain't happening" and we both laughed about it because we know that without something that powerful, it's a skip because we can use subclassing to build in a way that allows that to happen without the masteries or limitation of Templar's subpar skill toolkit.

Templar is getting some of the best class masteries (for PvP), so I don't get this either. Class masteries might not be perfect yet, but they are a great step towards striking a balance between pure classes and subclassing.

Luneca · June 2

Seraphayel wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

My brother plays templar and joked that for him to give up subclassing in a PvP context, Templar would have to have a 5 effect auto cleanse over a timed interval as a mastery. I told him "that ain't happening" and we both laughed about it because we know that without something that powerful, it's a skip because we can use subclassing to build in a way that allows that to happen without the masteries or limitation of Templar's subpar skill toolkit.

Templar is getting some of the best class masteries (for PvP), so I don't get this either. Class masteries might not be perfect yet, but they are a great step towards striking a balance between pure classes and subclassing.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the thing is that PvP is played in different ways. Some people block, some don't. Some roll, some don't. Some slot class skills, some don't.

Templar's skill line before was bad, adding a few bits of damage isn't going to solve the problem the class has that is alleviated by subclassing. That's because subclassing allows you to specialize and cover a hole in a build you might have, that can't be covered by any of the masteries.

The masteries weren't really designed to supplement the classes well. If they were, it seems to be doing a terrible job on paper, but also in reality.

Adding more weapon and spell damage, adding more healing, adding more block mitigation -- who cares?

At some point none of this matters in an actual PvP encounter. Nowhere near the ability to have 5-10k more health, have 15K+ shields you otherwise wouldn't, have 6-7 more instances of damage you can stack, etc. <-- that's what subclassing is enabling IF you wanted it and wanted to build for it.

And that's without considering how bad the templar's passives and overall skill kit is v. subclassed possibilities.If you ask me, even all of that combined -- all of Templar's masteries -- are inferior to a single skill in DK's subclass line: Heart of Flame (which is probably why not only I but others think it needs a nerf!).

When that's the case, there is zero possibility of me slotting it except on my pure templar that exists for RP purposes.

Nordstern · June 2

Luneca wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

My brother plays templar and joked that for him to give up subclassing in a PvP context, Templar would have to have a 5 effect auto cleanse over a timed interval as a mastery. I told him "that ain't happening" and we both laughed about it because we know that without something that powerful, it's a skip because we can use subclassing to build in a way that allows that to happen without the masteries or limitation of Templar's subpar skill toolkit.

Templar is getting some of the best class masteries (for PvP), so I don't get this either. Class masteries might not be perfect yet, but they are a great step towards striking a balance between pure classes and subclassing.

Adding more weapon and spell damage, adding more healing, adding more block mitigation -- who cares?

At some point none of this matters in an actual PvP encounter.

What?

All these matter greatly in an actual pvp encounter. The only playstyles that will still be definitely outperforming are pvp tanks and probably some gank setups. Ofc running a pure class needs more work of thought and isnt as easy as the two really easy playstyles i mentioned but if you know what you do, most pure classes will at least be on subclass level.

Luneca · June 2

Nordstern wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

My brother plays templar and joked that for him to give up subclassing in a PvP context, Templar would have to have a 5 effect auto cleanse over a timed interval as a mastery. I told him "that ain't happening" and we both laughed about it because we know that without something that powerful, it's a skip because we can use subclassing to build in a way that allows that to happen without the masteries or limitation of Templar's subpar skill toolkit.

Templar is getting some of the best class masteries (for PvP), so I don't get this either. Class masteries might not be perfect yet, but they are a great step towards striking a balance between pure classes and subclassing.

Adding more weapon and spell damage, adding more healing, adding more block mitigation -- who cares?

At some point none of this matters in an actual PvP encounter.

What? All these matter greatly in an actual pvp encounter. The only playstyles that will still be definitely outperforming are pvp tanks and probably some gank setups. Ofc running a pure class needs more work of thought and isnt as easy as the two really easy playstyles i mentioned but if you know what you do, most pure classes will at least be on subclass level.

I don't understand why people believe things like this poster posted above. Here's a simple experiment ANYONE can try. Go on live with your pure class other than DK, go PvP. What's wrong? List it down.

Now, what was wrong? Did class masteries address any of it?

And the answer is no for most of them. It's really that simple. Yet people are actually believing that these masteries change things and compete with subclassing?

Look, you go and enjoy the "pure" class, esp. "pure" templar. But when you find out that none of those masteries matter in reality, you'll be subclassed back in a day or AP for anyone that knows better.

Fortunately, all I do and will continue to do is fire siege. Life's good either way.

SugaComa · June 2

Keep subclassing, remove hybrid builds, so you have to subclass all three skill lines to the same class, however as a sub you can't use class sets , or class mastery skills in scribing

Gabriel_H · June 2

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Subclassing honestly is a great feature. It was ill-conceived when they released it without proper balancing pure classes, but Class Mastery will change that. And in that regard, it‘s just a great feature that allows a lot of fun / diverse builds.

Class mastery alone won't change it. The inherent imbalance was rooted in having two different class designs.

Base game classes have mixed skill lines. DLC classes have distinct tank, heal, dps skill lines. The class refresh seeks to alter that, with all classes having mixed skill lines BUT the last class to be refreshed is Arcanist - a DLC class - and whose rework is 18 - 24 months away.

Class Mastery is exactly changing that with the upcoming patch. Some classes will be stronger in a pure build, some will be stronger in a mixed subclassed build. That means win win for everyone.

DK is the only class that has been reworked thus far. Non-reworked classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds, even with the class masteries, which for most are lacklustre.

This simply isn’t true anymore with the upcoming update where class masteries will benefit several pure-class-builds.

The class masteries boost pure-classes from where they are now, but outside of one or two niche builds total pure-classes still lag far behind sub-classed builds. The current tranche of class masteries are not good enough.

But they are?

Some classes will be stronger with a pure build in U50, others will still be stronger with subclassing. "Still lag far behind" is also heavily exaggerated.

It also has been communicated several times that class masteries are subject to change so they can adjust pure builds and mixed builds constantly. I really don't see what your problem is with this approach.

Luneca wrote: »

My brother plays templar and joked that for him to give up subclassing in a PvP context, Templar would have to have a 5 effect auto cleanse over a timed interval as a mastery. I told him "that ain't happening" and we both laughed about it because we know that without something that powerful, it's a skip because we can use subclassing to build in a way that allows that to happen without the masteries or limitation of Templar's subpar skill toolkit.

Templar is getting some of the best class masteries (for PvP), so I don't get this either. Class masteries might not be perfect yet, but they are a great step towards striking a balance between pure classes and subclassing.

The difference is context. Pure classes will be stronger than they are now, but the gap between pure classes and subclassed builds is so wide they still won't be competitive outside of one or two very niche builds.

Templar is getting what in PvP now?! That's hilarious. Templar's PvP problems stem from the lack of burst damage. What's getting added? Judgement? 1,500 extra damage on Templar skills halved against players (750) and further subject to Battle Spirit (325). OMG so OP!

Seraphayel · June 2

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Templar is getting what in PvP now?! That's hilarious. Templar's PvP problems stem from the lack of burst damage. What's getting added? Judgement? 1,500 extra damage on Templar skills halved against players (750) and further subject to Battle Spirit (325). OMG so OP!

Sure, let‘s just completely ignore the busted defensive class masteries because Templar doesn’t get the strongest offensive ones…

As you’ve said, the difference is context.

Gabriel_H · June 2

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Templar is getting what in PvP now?! That's hilarious. Templar's PvP problems stem from the lack of burst damage. What's getting added? Judgement? 1,500 extra damage on Templar skills halved against players (750) and further subject to Battle Spirit (325). OMG so OP!

Sure, let‘s just completely ignore the busted defensive class masteries because Templar doesn’t get the strongest offensive ones…

As you’ve said, the difference is context.

What defence? You think that paltry heal or tiny damage shield that is going to make a blind bit of difference against a 100K burst?!

Templar's only PvP problem is lack of burst damage. The tiny defence buff does not alter that problem. The weak damage buff is insulting.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 2

Seraphayel wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Templar is getting what in PvP now?! That's hilarious. Templar's PvP problems stem from the lack of burst damage. What's getting added? Judgement? 1,500 extra damage on Templar skills halved against players (750) and further subject to Battle Spirit (325). OMG so OP!

Sure, let‘s just completely ignore the busted defensive class masteries because Templar doesn’t get the strongest offensive ones…

As you’ve said, the difference is context.

I still think some of the Class Mastery Passives are underwhelming. And for some roles they just seem completely inadequate. Its definitely a move in the right direction and so very long overdue. I understand Zos mentioning they were subject to change on one of their streams. Let us hope they pay close attention to this moving forward. It still doesn't solve the issue of why all this has happened and is happening in the first place and that's Subclass. I really dont understand why they aren't addressing that, its the real issue.