the new survey maps and treasure maps

lillybit · May 17

AzuraFan wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

No it's not great, but going from a single unopened map to over 20 for everyone, regardless of whether they want a specific region or not, isn't the answer. That would be some sort of curation when you open them. Then everyone wins.

I didn't say it was the answer. I didn't suggest that we go back to the old system (in fact, I said I like the new system overall). I was pointing out that there are some cases where the new system makes things worse.

I don't think it can be said the new system makes things worse. The average player is much better off. My PC account has maybe 30 inventory slots taken up by random maps from before the change, so at least I stand some chance of clearing them eventually now. Then I can open and do the new ones as I feel like it.

People are hoarding them but that's down to people, not necessarily the system. 20 stacks would be nearly as easy to hoard as one. I probably still wouldn't get around to doing anything with them but they'd have more of an impact on my storage. Even if you open all of them as soon as you get them, individual maps stack now so we're still better off than before.

AzuraFan · May 17

lillybit wrote: »

I don't think it can be said the new system makes things worse.

For me, the new system makes things worse in that specific situation. For me. I'm allowed to feel differently than other players do. It doesn't mean I'm wrong or they're wrong, so there's no point in continuing to point out to me that the new system is an improvement. I agree, just not in that specific situation. For me.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Acquiring your needed map works exactly as it did before. Whether you nabbed 1 High Isle map when opening all 35 unknowns at once, or you got the same map through attrition over time looting 35 individual already-known maps, the total average number of maps required will remain near the same. The difference being inventory management is now significantly less of a headache.

Yes, it works exactly as it did before. Which means it's not an improvement over the old system, right? In that specific situation, I don't benefit from the new system. That's all I'm saying. Which is irritating because yes, when I want a map in a specific zone, I lose the benefits of the new system. If it doesn't bother others, that's fine. We're different players, and I'm not advocating going back to the old system.

For the third time, I like the new system overall. I just wish there was a way to look inside the envelope and pull out maps we want. Because the envelope isn't a true container, there isn't. It's too bad it isn't a true container because that would have been a much better system (the same for surveys).

ETA: I think people are getting hung up over me saying it's "worse". I understand that if I have to open all my maps, I'm back to the old system, so it's not worse than the old system. But to me, it's irritating, and a flaw in the implementation because I'm forced to open every map, hoping to get the one I want. So the new system fails in this case. It's supposed to save me inventory slots, but it forces me to use slots when I want a map in a particular zone.

DenverRalphy · May 17

AzuraFan wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

I don't think it can be said the new system makes things worse.

For me, the new system makes things worse in that specific situation. For me. I'm allowed to feel differently than other players do. It doesn't mean I'm wrong or they're wrong, so there's no point in continuing to point out to me that the new system is an improvement. I agree, just not in that specific situation. For me.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Acquiring your needed map works exactly as it did before. Whether you nabbed 1 High Isle map when opening all 35 unknowns at once, or you got the same map through attrition over time looting 35 individual already-known maps, the total average number of maps required will remain near the same. The difference being inventory management is now significantly less of a headache.

Yes, it works exactly as it did before. Which means it's not an improvement over the old system, right? In that specific situation, I don't benefit from the new system. That's all I'm saying. Which is irritating because yes, when I want a map in a specific zone, I lose the benefits of the new system. If it doesn't bother others, that's fine. We're different players, and I'm not advocating going back to the old system.

Under the old system, you could not stack individual unique maps. Going by your previous example.. under the new system you can open those 35 unknown treasure maps and if you get multiple High Isle III maps, they will all stack and take one slot. Under the old system, you'd have to keep one in the bank, one in your inventory, and perhaps even one in house storage if needed. The same map all occupying multiple slots.

I'd say that's an improvement.

AzuraFan · May 17

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Under the old system, you could not stack individual unique maps. Going by your previous example.. under the new system you can open those 35 unknown treasure maps and if you get multiple High Isle III maps, they will all stack and take one slot. Under the old system, you'd have to keep one in the bank, one in your inventory, and perhaps even one in house storage if needed. The same map all occupying multiple slots.

I'd say that's an improvement.

I'm still stuck using up inventory slots with maps I'm not interested in at the time, which defeats the purpose of the new system. We're looking at it from different directions. You're looking it at from the "but you'll use less inventory slots than with the old system" angle. I'm looking at it from the "I like the new system, but it forces me to remove maps and use inventory slots for no reason, which defeats the purpose of the envelope" angle. Like I said in my last post, a true container would have been better than an envelope that rolls for the map when you remove one.

I've always understood that I'll probably use less inventory slots when I open the maps I don't want, but that's never been the point. The point is that the envelope system doesn't work well in this case because the envelope isn't a true container.

Overall, the new system is an improvement over the old system, but not for me in this case.

barney2525 · May 17

This seems to be the 'downside' of leaving them un-opened.

I open everything when I get it. They don't accumulate because I check to see how quick I can get to them. Easy pickups (close to open wayshrines) I take care of almost immediately. Seeing a bunch maps/surveys in my inventory encourages me to clean them out.

There is never a time when I don't know what zone it is for.

Just open them when you get them, and if you don't like where it's at, discard it. It does not take any extra time that is being complained about.

UrQuan · May 17

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'm looking at it from the "I like the new system, but it forces me to remove maps and use inventory slots for no reason, which defeats the purpose of the envelope" angle. Like I said in my last post, a true container would have been better than an envelope that rolls for the map when you remove one.

What you're referring to as true containers (ie. ones that you can open up to see what's inside, and then choose to leave the contents in there) can't stack though, because otherwise there'd be no way to find the one that has XYZ in it as opposed to the one that has ABC in it or as opposed to ones you haven't even looked in before. The only way to make stackable containers without creating an entirely new inventory menu and system for them is to use the envelope system where they stack, but as soon as you open one the contents get deposited into your inventory. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from, but if they used true containers for treasure maps we'd be in a marginally worse situation from before, because you'd have every single map taking up a full inventory slot (same as before), but you'd also have to open each container anyway to see what's inside (a very quick and minor step, but an additional step compared to before).

Techwolf_Lupindo · May 17

UrQuan wrote: »

Do you know how much inventory space this all would have taken up under the old system? I practically did a dance of joy when I finally used up all of my old pre-container surveys...

The Jewelry ones are selling for over 15K apiece. The cloather ones are selling over 10K apiece. You got a lot of value setting there doing nothing. XD

I have been doing a single listing of each per day as I do my daily crafting writs. It as greatly increased the gold earned per day.

Techwolf_Lupindo · May 17

I would be a huge QOL if the stackable maps open to a random map of the regime you are in at that time of opening it. It can even be a perk of the ESO+, unknown maps open to regime opened in.

UrQuan · May 17

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Do you know how much inventory space this all would have taken up under the old system? I practically did a dance of joy when I finally used up all of my old pre-container surveys...

The Jewelry ones are selling for over 15K apiece. The cloather ones are selling over 10K apiece. You got a lot of value setting there doing nothing. XD

I have been doing a single listing of each per day as I do my daily crafting writs. It as greatly increased the gold earned per day.

Thanks, that's good to know, but I have my hands full at the moment selling off some of the 12K tempering alloy and 12K dreugh wax I'm sitting on

AzuraFan · May 17

UrQuan wrote: »

What you're referring to as true containers (ie. ones that you can open up to see what's inside, and then choose to leave the contents in there) can't stack though, because otherwise there'd be no way to find the one that has XYZ in it as opposed to the one that has ABC in it or as opposed to ones you haven't even looked in before. The only way to make stackable containers without creating an entirely new inventory menu and system for them is to use the envelope system where they stack, but as soon as you open one the contents get deposited into your inventory. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from, but if they used true containers for treasure maps we'd be in a marginally worse situation from before, because you'd have every single map taking up a full inventory slot (same as before), but you'd also have to open each container anyway to see what's inside (a very quick and minor step, but an additional step compared to before).

I'm not sure I understand. Right now, we have one map envelope for all unopened maps (or at least I do. Maybe there's a limit and then it spills over into another one). There's no need for stacking when there's only one envelope. And if the envelope does have a limit and eventually another one has to be created (for the real map hoarders!), then if the envelope was a true container, at that point there would be two containers created. Two containers would take up two slots, just like two envelopes would, so there would be no impact on the number of slots. I must be missing something or I haven't understood what you mean.

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

I would be a huge QOL if the stackable maps open to a random map of the regime you are in at that time of opening it. It can even be a perk of the ESO+, unknown maps open to regime opened in.

That would be great and address the problem with treasure map leads (assuming by "regime" you mean "zone"). I doubt they'd do that, though, because that would be the end of treasure map sales for guild vendors.

UrQuan · May 17

AzuraFan wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

What you're referring to as true containers (ie. ones that you can open up to see what's inside, and then choose to leave the contents in there) can't stack though, because otherwise there'd be no way to find the one that has XYZ in it as opposed to the one that has ABC in it or as opposed to ones you haven't even looked in before. The only way to make stackable containers without creating an entirely new inventory menu and system for them is to use the envelope system where they stack, but as soon as you open one the contents get deposited into your inventory. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from, but if they used true containers for treasure maps we'd be in a marginally worse situation from before, because you'd have every single map taking up a full inventory slot (same as before), but you'd also have to open each container anyway to see what's inside (a very quick and minor step, but an additional step compared to before).

I'm not sure I understand. Right now, we have one map envelope for all unopened maps (or at least I do. Maybe there's a limit and then it spills over into another one). There's no need for stacking when there's only one envelope. And if the envelope does have a limit and eventually another one has to be created (for the real map hoarders!), then if the envelope was a true container, at that point there would be two containers created. Two containers would take up two slots, just like two envelopes would, so there would be no impact on the number of slots. I must be missing something or I haven't understood what you mean.

No, you have 1 stack of envelopes for maps. In this screenshot you can see that I have a stack of 22 unopened treasure map envelopes:

Now I've split that stack into 2 stacks of 11 envelopes each:

Notice how in the first screenshot I also have 2 purple anniversary jubilee gift boxes: true containers. They don't and can't stack because they don't have the same item ID, since each has different contents (in this case one has 3 transmute stones that I can't loot because I'm at the limit, and the other has 1 transmute stone). I'm assuming they do the item IDs for these containers by doing something like having a generic item ID for the type of container (say AJGC for these ones) and then appending separate item IDs for everything inside the container to that item ID to indicate exactly what each individual container contains (in this case let's say that would be AJGC.3TS and AJGC.1TS), but that means that they can't stack to take up only 1 inventory slot.

The treasure map envelopes can stack (up to 200, assuming they have the same stacking rules as the survey envelopes, since I have over 200 jewelry survey envelopes and that's in 1 stack of 200 and 1 stack of 20), because they have the same item ID. They can have the same item ID because their contents aren't generated until they are opened and the contents deposited into your inventory. If the contents were already determined, they couldn't stack without a complete overhaul of the inventory system, since they'd have different item IDs.

Hope that makes sense!

AzuraFan · May 17

UrQuan wrote: »

The treasure map envelopes can stack (up to 200, assuming they have the same stacking rules as the survey envelopes, since I have over 200 jewelry survey envelopes and that's in 1 stack of 200 and 1 stack of 20), because they have the same item ID. They can have the same item ID because their contents aren't generated until they are opened and the contents deposited into your inventory. If the contents were already determined, they couldn't stack without a complete overhaul of the inventory system, since they'd have different item IDs.

Hope that makes sense!

Ah, okay, I get it. Then I wish they'd implemented it differently. Rather than having individual envelopes that stack, it would have been better if they had a true container. That way we could choose which zone maps to remove, and we could also place maps back into the container. Instead they went with rolling the map when we open one, which is fine if you just want to dig up any old treasure map(s), but not ideal if you want maps for a particular zone (usually because you want a lead from a treasure map). Oh well.

FlopsyPrince · May 17

UrQuan wrote: »

Do you know how much inventory space this all would have taken up under the old system? I practically did a dance of joy when I finally used up all of my old pre-container surveys...

My bank is already stuffed full of them by zone. This just took away several more slots.

I will likely never catch up since it takes a long time, even with a great addon (PS5) showing where they are on the map and where to go to reset things. Just let me gather them all at once and I would clear them out much more often.

Though having to manually open them (or have an addon do it) is a bit annoying. Then I will end up with them all over the map taking a LOT of time to gather them.

I would generally agree with the OP.

FlopsyPrince · May 17

lillybit wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

No it's not great, but going from a single unopened map to over 20 for everyone, regardless of whether they want a specific region or not, isn't the answer. That would be some sort of curation when you open them. Then everyone wins.

I didn't say it was the answer. I didn't suggest that we go back to the old system (in fact, I said I like the new system overall). I was pointing out that there are some cases where the new system makes things worse.

I don't think it can be said the new system makes things worse. The average player is much better off. My PC account has maybe 30 inventory slots taken up by random maps from before the change, so at least I stand some chance of clearing them eventually now. Then I can open and do the new ones as I feel like it.

People are hoarding them but that's down to people, not necessarily the system. 20 stacks would be nearly as easy to hoard as one. I probably still wouldn't get around to doing anything with them but they'd have more of an impact on my storage. Even if you open all of them as soon as you get them, individual maps stack now so we're still better off than before.

No need to use the loaded "hoarding" term. I stack them up because I have collected a LOT over time and don't always want to spend several days of my time gathering them. It is very tedious. Even doing 10-20 of each in a single zone can take a 1-2 hours running around and gets very tedious. I don't discard them because they have value, but they suck up time I would rather do many other things, including leveling Legenderman (sp?) on my army of alts.

I don't do it a lot now, but doing daily crafting on 10-15 alts, per server, gets rather tedious already. I would keep them cleared out much more often if I could collect a stack of them at once. Even allowing me to reset the local ones (possibly by "using" a remaining survey) without running an arbitrary distance away and then back.

The treasure maps are better, as are the writs, but I still have a bunch of those to work through.

UrQuan · May 18

AzuraFan wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

The treasure map envelopes can stack (up to 200, assuming they have the same stacking rules as the survey envelopes, since I have over 200 jewelry survey envelopes and that's in 1 stack of 200 and 1 stack of 20), because they have the same item ID. They can have the same item ID because their contents aren't generated until they are opened and the contents deposited into your inventory. If the contents were already determined, they couldn't stack without a complete overhaul of the inventory system, since they'd have different item IDs.

Hope that makes sense!

Ah, okay, I get it. Then I wish they'd implemented it differently. Rather than having individual envelopes that stack, it would have been better if they had a true container. That way we could choose which zone maps to remove, and we could also place maps back into the container. Instead they went with rolling the map when we open one, which is fine if you just want to dig up any old treasure map(s), but not ideal if you want maps for a particular zone (usually because you want a lead from a treasure map). Oh well.

But then they couldn't stack at all, so instead of my 1 stack of 22 unopened envelopes, I'd have 22 non-stacking containers taking up 22 inventory slots, which would be no better than the previous system of individual treasure maps that don't stack.

lillybit · May 18

UrQuan wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

The treasure map envelopes can stack (up to 200, assuming they have the same stacking rules as the survey envelopes, since I have over 200 jewelry survey envelopes and that's in 1 stack of 200 and 1 stack of 20), because they have the same item ID. They can have the same item ID because their contents aren't generated until they are opened and the contents deposited into your inventory. If the contents were already determined, they couldn't stack without a complete overhaul of the inventory system, since they'd have different item IDs.

Hope that makes sense!

Ah, okay, I get it. Then I wish they'd implemented it differently. Rather than having individual envelopes that stack, it would have been better if they had a true container. That way we could choose which zone maps to remove, and we could also place maps back into the container. Instead they went with rolling the map when we open one, which is fine if you just want to dig up any old treasure map(s), but not ideal if you want maps for a particular zone (usually because you want a lead from a treasure map). Oh well.

But then they couldn't stack at all, so instead of my 1 stack of 22 unopened envelopes, I'd have 22 non-stacking containers taking up 22 inventory slots, which would be no better than the previous system of individual treasure maps that don't stack.

As well as that, if they were actual containers that stacked, it would effectively have exactly the same effect as envelopes.

There is no way you could look in any except the top one. The only way to get to the next would be by emptying it anyway. Same as if you have food you can't take it from the middle if the pile, you always use the top one. Sure you can split stacks, but I doubt it would let you combine them again after or it wouldn't be able to keep track of what was what.

Also regular containers don't generate the contents til you open them either.

As I said earlier, rather than worrying about unopened envelopes, your energy would be better spent trying to convince ZoS to curate them to the zone you open them in. I don't imagine they would ever make it 100% but even if they made it so it had like a 1 in 4 chance of being for the zone you're in it would be so much better, and those who don't care would still get their nice easy single stack.

FurryCandyHearts · May 18

DoofusMax wrote: »

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

Literally everyone opens up all their maps and gathers them up by region they are located in because gathering them by region makes the most sense.

Thank you, OP, for telling the whole world that I am nobody. I don't have any opened survey maps, but I think I might have one opened Treasure Map (Greymoor caverns, I think - couldn't easily find the location and just put it back in storage). I'm also the nobody who used an entire storage chest to hold only alliance-zone surveys (4 maps times 15 zones is a convenient number) and then had to clear out the Bank every week or two because the others kept eating my storage space. Also had to dedicate play time to clearing out Treasure Maps for the same reason. Now I have a whole six stacks of surveys (as opposed to "sixty plus Bank") and one of Treasure Maps. I open them when I need them, don't particularly care where they are, and enjoy using my storage for other stuff now.

Be cautions of claims like "Literally everyone" because all it takes is one counterexample to completely collapse your argument.

YoU'RE WELCOME ????

NoticeMeArkay · May 18

I'm somewhat surprised that only half the title got censored.

FurryCandyHearts · May 18

I abhor the time it takes to open these things. they are useless to me until i know which zones they are all in so i need to open them all

AScarlato · May 18

As someone who is only rarely in the mood for surveys and almost never in the mood for maps, I like the new system.

Separating maps back into regions would not be ideal for me, since we have many regions.

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

I'm somewhat surprised that only half the title got censored.

The title is a bit much, especially from someone who often posts how upsetting so many things in ESO are to them.

FlameDark · May 18

I much prefer the new system. I like to store as many maps as possible and do them all at once. In the old system that would mean about 200 spaces in my bank were taken up, a full storage box in my house, and about 50 spots in my inventory. Plus I ended up deleting a lot of maps as I could not hold more them one in any single location. Now, with the new system, I can do the exact same thing but with a quarter of the space being taken up. Then when I feel like using all my maps, I just open all the unknown maps and start from top to bottom. Super easy.

wmaggie · May 18

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

I am sure i am not the only one that uses the addon to sort the maps by region. the only way that works is to open them up to see what they are. Stacking them without knowing what region they belong to but sorted by material type is useless. it steals time from me to have to open each one so my addon can sort it by region. I don't know anyone who goes out and gathers up maps by material type. Literally everyone opens up all their maps and gathers them up by region they are located in because gathering them by region makes the most sense. The unopened maps are useless annoyances.

<edited title to remove curse/profanity>

You use an addon for surveys to sort them into regions.... lol I am sorry but that is the funniest thing I read on here today.

I have never used an add on for surveys to 'sort them' or locate them, despite them being added to console... this is where console differs I guess. Where you actually learn things for yourself and how to do them.

MasterSpatula · May 18

The new way saves an enormous amount of bank space, but actually doing the surveys consumes a staggering amount more time. I'd say it kinda comes out a wash in the end.

msgeek · May 18

Its a big improvement on the old system... but you need to take advantage of it correctly.

Eg: when I harvest each survey type:

Jan/Jul: Alchemy
Feb/Aug: Blacksmithing
Mar/Sep: Clothing
Apr/Oct: Enchanting
May/Nov: Jewellery
Jun/Dec: Wood

Until harvest Month, each survey stays in its stack. each mat gets harvested every 6 Months, 6 Months worth of surveys. Only one craft ever needs to be opened at a time, so massive reduction in inventory space, and less intimidating quantity means its easier to stay on top of.

Fenris_Arainai · May 18

I didn't even know there was an add on sorting by regions. Not that I would use it anyway.

So no, I don't mind them stacked by type. It's good they are stacked.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · May 18

I dont use add ons but I would rather have them stacked because bank and inventory space is a problem in this game. I usually do surveys by type regardless of where they end up taking me. In the beginning, its probably good to do treasure maps but the rewards are really not worth the time. Especially if youve already got the bound scrying items and know the motifs.

DoofusMax · May 18

FurryCandyHearts wrote: »

I abhor the time it takes to open these things. they are useless to me until i know which zones they are all in so i need to open them all

Color me confused on this point. It takes less than a half-second to open a survey or map, so five seconds or less to open 10. I'm not certain because I have access to every zone and can't check it, but I don't think you can get a survey or Treasure Map for a zone you can't access, so the "where" of a map or survey is mostly irrelevant. The only ones coming to mind which individual characters have had issues with are some in Coldharbour, where parts of the zone are locked off behind zone story progression. I don't like to taxi beyond the bounds of where a character can go on their own (personal preference) and Coldharbour has a specific place in zone sequencing, but exploration is part and parcel of the game and it's not like characters don't get XP for discovering wayshrines and other locations.

FurryCandyHearts · 2:43AM

i just timed them on eu servers 43 seconds to open 13 maps. 3 seconds each. not the half second you falsely claimed but 6x longer than that.

FurryCandyHearts · 2:45AM

not only did i time it but i also recorded it while i live streamed it

lillybit · 9:03AM

There are addons that will open them afk tho. Consoles have 2 already. Opening envelopes is soooo much better than containers because it doesn't do the zoom/spin thing