ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

But the mastery procs from casting anything, it can't

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

Not at all. Wretched is a common high tier set in PvP for the purposes of sustain.

One could say the exact same for Rallying Cry, it'[s not a damage set but it's a staple among builds in PvP.

Just depends on the build. The Sorc CoE passive would allow one who is currently running Wretched to replace it with a damage set or something else buld-centric.

And that's the point, that the mastery allows you to avoid building sustain on gear and instead stack even more raw damage and resources, amplifying the mastery's power vs someone who does need to run WV.

Pretending rallying cry isn't a damage set is truly something special.

Correct, the mastery precisely allows that .. On a class with no real spammable damage skill and where the most commonly useful skills don't synergize well with the passive:

Frags has a 0.8 cast time so a Sorc isn't seeing optimum CoE return with that skill, almost half really. Haunting Curse is a not-tick DoT (which can be cleansed), Hurricane is cast once per 20 seconds, Bound Armaments has to be charged, If one is running Ward it's a 6 second duration, Surge is a 30 second duration, Streak has a progressive cost and we already established that's not a method to maintain CoE.

That's your top Sorc sourced skills in PvP and not a single one of them would support optimal uptime on CoE, which drives one to World/Weapon skills to maximize that, which is fine, but those skills don't synergize with the overall class, seeing a penalty to Expert Mage for each of those outside skills one needs to slot .. Exploitation is only on DM cast, so yes, it's strong but it also has some caveats.

Going outside of the class for skills is far more beneficial for Stam Sorcs than it is for Mag Sorcs which really affects how strong this passive is when it's applied to everyone in the class. Not everyone is a Stam Sorc.

As for Rallying Cry, no, it's not a "damage set". Rallying Cry doesn't deliver damage, it enhances your own damage so the amount of extra damage Rallying Cry buffs depends on what sort of damage you're putting out already and how many people it affects. The main point of Rally Cry is the Crit resist & chance, as far as damage sets or damage enhancing sets go there's stronger options out there than Rallying Cry so if one was looking to slot a set that's focused on purely damage then Rallying Cry wouldn't be at the top of that list.

1) CoE procs from anything, not only sorcerer skills? EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO SYNERGIZES WITH THE PASSIVE. There are *two* free skills that won't proc it, total.

2) name some damage sets.

No, not everything, any activity / ability with a cost. But in order to get the Mastery one needs to be pure-sorc which insinuates that the player is going to slot some degree of sorc skills on their bars. If the majority of those are slow and clunky then that's going to slow down the rate of recovery out of CoE.

Heavy or light attacks, for example, don't proc it. If one was already a heavy attack based Sorc (which many Mags are) then your main offensive action isn't proccing the passive. Again, that's fine, but it means that the player isn't realizing anywhere near the 1 per second return rate on CoE.

The majority of people citing CoE being broken are citing values that assume or factor in CoE being procced persistently and consistently every second. Even if we recognize a proc every 2 seconds that cuts the values people are citing in half. If a Sorc wanted to, for example, heavy attack and dodge persistently then we're realistically looking at a 3 second proc rate; and if the player is a Mag Sorc they're going to spend more Stam then they receive in rebate to do that.

So yes, the CoE synergizes with a lot but in terms of the "maximum scenario" of a proc every single second whilst also using majority Sorc skills that's where it becomes questionable.

The CoE passive allows a Sorc to lean into sustain outside of gear, which is fine, because, again, in the context of going up against subclassed metas hitting at or over 10k DPS a Sorc needs to be able to focus more directly on quick burst in order to compete with that and Sorc skills don't deliver those burst mechanics nearly as well as a subclassed build.

some better damage sets: Clever Alchemist, Orders Wrath, Deadly Strike, Dark Convergence, Vicious Death, Mechanical Acuity, Rush of Agony, etc.

Ok but if you're running a heavy attack build it isn't a pvp build and has infinite mag anyways so who cares, if you're playing even just force pulse as long as you're not literally afk you're triggering the mastery almost every second.

None of those are damage sets they merely enhance your own damage.

You'd be surprised. Most Mag based Sorcs in PvP are heavy attack focused because there isn't nearly as much in the toolkit that aligns with Mag Sorcs from a PvP perspective. I agree that it's not the most optimized for PvP which is why I don't do it with mine by my build is very niche and wouldn't make sense to most but it's effective.

That said, if one is a Mag based Sorc the mechanics and burst potential behind that side of Sorc isn't what Stam is and when we look at what runs top tier in PvP and it's rapid, strong burst we can see where CoE works to fill gaps that enable the class to pivot and refocus to be more competitive even if they aren't a Stam basis.

I do maintain that once Sorcs get their refresh these values should be adjusted accordingly.

Some sets do, but more than Rallying Cry does, but sets like Vicious Death, Rush of Agony, Dark Convergence .. they all deal high scaling direct burst damage, they don't enhance damage.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

You'd be surprised. Most Mag based Sorcs in PvP are heavy attack focused because there isn't nearly as much in the toolkit that aligns with Mag Sorcs from a PvP perspective. I agree that it's not the most optimized for PvP which is why I don't do it with mine by my build is very niche and wouldn't make sense to most but it's effective.

That said, if one is a Mag based Sorc the mechanics and burst potential behind that side of Sorc isn't what Stam is and when we look at what runs top tier in PvP and it's rapid, strong burst we can see where CoE works to fill gaps that enable the class to pivot and refocus to be more competitive even if they aren't a Stam basis.

I do maintain that once Sorcs get their refresh these values should be adjusted accordingly.

Some sets do, but more than Rallying Cry does, but sets like Vicious Death, Rush of Agony, Dark Convergence .. they all deal high scaling direct burst damage, they don't enhance damage.

No, most pvp magsorcs really are not heavy attack focused.

I mean, I get that I've been arguing with your chatgpt responses all morning but lordy if you didn't get that I was mocking you with the set question and response...

NxJoeyD wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Most bothersome thing about all these IMO, the classes at the front of the refreshes have the best masteries. Meaning Templar/NB/Necro will suffer for an extended period of time dealing with refreshed DKs/Wardens/Sorcs on top of their S/A tier masteries.

I agree. A lot of the passives don't deliver what's needed to be competitive, Temp & Necro especially. Their passives should deliver more

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

True. The main point of applying it to enemies is to maintain uptime. If one dies or is cleansed then you continue to receive the recovery. A player slotting MS on a burst skill and running Vitality is going to get less than the CoE passive gives Sorcs but having the debuff on multiple targets helps ensure consistency.

If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc.

Do you maybe see the issue with your defense of Conservation of Energy now?

No, I had wrong math but the cornerstone of my defense of CoE is that it's a strong sustain in the context of a PvP meta that's delivering upwards of 10k+ DPS, enabling Sorcs to be more dynamic with build crafting and damage output.

Unlless some one dies in like 2 seconds no build atm is even close to doing 10k dps in a fight, nor are you doing 7k dps in a fight, i guarantee you. Do you understand why people were freaked about ww doing 7-8k dps before it got adjusted slightly down when pts just began? Because that was literally unheard of before in game. Meta builds do around 5-6k dps max currently during duels and there was literally no build in the game before pure classing that could also have enough hps for 7k damage, pure class sorc, new max hp dk brawlers and maybe ww is imo the only classes that can even match such a high hps now and im not even sure about ww after they got their spammables heal adjusted (though i think it got buffed a bit last patch, havent checked ww in a bit)

I dunno if its because you play on xbox (?) but whenever you try to talk numbers you seem especially disconnected from reality.

Players are dying in 5 seconds or less. And I'm not talking about duels, I'm talking about the broad sense of PvP, meaning Cryo, IC, BGs. Dueling is niche and not reflective of the broad PvP experience. Dueling builds are inherently different from broad spec PvP and in those broader venues, yes, the top tier MMR subclassed meta players are dealing out that much damage.

This is one of the issues when it comes to PTS and benchmarking because there are material gameplay environments that don't get tested properly. Everyone want's to setup for duels on PTS then profess to say what, overall, values and stats should be that apply across the whole spectrum of PvP.

What I'm basing my perspective on is current live-game measures in BGs, and Cryo, and the IC, combined with what I see in PTS. Not just about standing in Riften sniffing for duels and then thinking we've captured the scope of PvP in ESO.

I just posted a video yesterday of my Mag Sorc killing a subclassed DK in 5 seconds in a BG, dealing a total of just under 39k damage, on the target, after mitigations in 5 seconds scaling over 7k DPS in PvP and I'm nowhere near the meta. .. And to do that I'm leaning on Templar & Arcanist subclassing. And in that fight it was literally only me & the DK, no assistance or help or healing from anyone on my team.

What's more, in that clip I was able to apply passive DoTs that amounted to, roughly, 1.4k to 1.5k per second persistently. Since we've all established that the heal component of CoE would deliver around 1.5k to 1.8 base, non crit healing per second to a Sorc that means that my passive DoTs, would negate the lions share of that passive heal without interrupting my rotation.

As for the clip, anyone can DM and I'll send the link. I can't post openly as it includes usernames / tags.

So while, yes, I have agreed that they're strong, I'm saying they're not OP because in the broader sense there's baselines that see those numbers in PvP already.

It's not because I play on Xbox it's because I'm evaluating a lot more than just the scope of duels when it comes to PvP and the overall state of PvP.

Mate you have been wrong on so many stuff and on so many levels that there is no point in arguing with you anymore. The reason you think sorc is weak is because your build is extremely weak and you refuse to adapt. Pick up signet, start using wield soul as a burst heal, adapt your playstyle. I'm honestly done talking, good luck

VinnyGambini wrote: »

4. Templar survivability increase is about 30%, which is very nice. However dmg increase is trash (10%). Templar only beats Arcanist and NB.
Note here, if judgment brand increase dmg by 2000 as original design, dmg increase in PvP would be 900. This is about 15% increase for hard hitting class abilities, and about 60% increase in jabs (2400/1500 = 1,6). Considering this skills dmg increase (no increase for LA or status effects), dps increase in original state would be about 25-30% (which would actually be perfect state).

I absolutely agree. As I've said before, there is absolutely NO reason for me to pure class on a Templar when I can do better subclassing. Had they stuck to the original 2000 and then 'reduced as necessary' they would have done a much better job of getting this right. Instead they nerfed it into the ground to start, and then meekly have increased it... which is the opposite of how they should have approached it IMO. Start BIG, then drop it down if it's too much... but starting too low, and you don't have enough time during PTS cycle to ramp it up enough.

hoangdz wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I am glad that your build works without Dark Deal. I don't want to be forced into Monomyth as other mythics are more interesting. So I still need minor berserk, and I also think the sustain from CoE gets greatly overestimated. Under pressure and outside of 1v1s, where mobility is also required, I still need help.

Dropping Dark Deal is not feasible. In a 1v1, all of this is easier, but not out there.

No Mythic is worth sacrificing 1 bar slot for imo. Monomyth is just too good to not run.

Keep in mind, I feel completely fine with armor pots, so sustain is easily solved by using tri pots.

And I definitely want Armour Potions over Tri Stat. It's too much to give up when you can afford running them.
Out in the field, where I have to streak and often times spam shields more than I want to, I still get magicka issues the same way as before. At least I do not feel confident dropping Dark Exchange (so the magicka restoring variant) yet.

I thought of it and what I would even slot in place of Dark Exchange. There isn't even a lot that seems worthwhile and impactful enough. The soonest thing is Elemental Sus so that I can exchange the Breach on Shocking Soul with Major Vitality. Yet being able to spam shields and streaks as much as I have to to navigate situations, seems the best survivability boost conceivable.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Savagejack wrote: »

Reading through these debates and use of math has been very insightful. So I want to thank you cuties for all this production effort. Keep it coming.

As insightful as the math is, I find it more entertaining with the mental gymnastics from those trying to depict sorc as a weak class (mag/stam) and that their new class masteries are "underwhelming" (aside from hoangdaz/static and some others who does understand how strong it actually can be).

People can call it whatever they want. People can claim Sorc is strong under the presumption that "what one Stam Sorc does" is reflective of all of the Sorc class .. Or we could continue to say that the passives are going to be OP by making unrealistic assumptions that every Sorc is going to show up in PvP with 40k to 50k health .. Or we could even keep doing CMX summaries where we "compare" setups and buff one test whilst sandbagging the other and then claim proof of point .. Or rely on dummy parses or contrived duals, neither of which reflect the majority of PvP. ... We could do a lot of things on these threads.

Some people get Sorc to work, and that's great for them and I don't take anything away from them for it. But that's not a real or broad picture of Sorc as a class in the current state of PvP.

Personally, I've spent a lot of time with this one class in particular and it's why you only see me on here bringing feedback about that class. I'm leaving the other classes up to those who run and main them every day to give their experience and their feedback in the hopes of getting their passives dialed in.

Whether anyone things I'm off target in thinking pure-Sorc is weak in the context of the subclassed meta, hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion but good luck finding any solid data where pure-sorcs in U49 are leading anything in PvP. And while PvE and PvP are very much different, even if we look at one of the top tier PvE instances to get an idea of a spread of how Sorc perform in the current release we see Mag Sorc not just at the bottom but significantly off-pace. If we can all agree that pure-Sorc skills have a greater use potential in PvE then this chart doesn't indicate very well for pure-sorc in PvP either.
As for me. Some people think I have no idea how to build my class or theory craft or that I have no idea what PvP looks like. I mean, that's fine, anyone can think what they want but at the end of the day I can confidently say that at least my observations are supported with results at being effective. This is in no way saying that my build is better or top tier, in fact, I've repeated that I'm nowhere near the meta. I could absolutely be stronger if I were to switch to Stam Sorc, but for a Mag base, I'm heavily subclassed and I wouldn't have near the power and consistency that I do now if I were to be pure-mag Sorc.

There's way better builds out there than me but one can't say that I haven't put time into PvP.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

While objective and rational discussion is important, it's not hard to see that some people present, for reasons we don't know, are extremely insistent on nerfing Sorc.
For this, I want to thank @NxJoeyD for standing up for Sorc.

In PvE, thanks to the ESO-LOG's data, we can accurately grasp the number of Sorc users, even just the equipped with one Sorc line. The data shows that Sorc is poorly in PvE, even extremely poorly.

In PvP, well, unfortunately, this is a more difficult scenario to obtain data on, but considering some inaccurate comparisons, such as comparing Sorc's 108 weapon damage to Nightblade's 6% mana/stamina bonus, or using non-Sorc skills as evidence that Sorc is too strong... bro, is this genuine or sarcastic?

I look at it this way, if pure-classes as they are now, were broadly competitive against the top tier subclass builds in PvP then the Devs wouldn't be doing class refreshes.

The Devs admitted that subclassing is seriously out performing pure-classes and was the reason for the refreshes and the Mastery passives in the first place.

To try and say that any pure-class, let alone Sorc, is "just fine" right now or "strong" right now really depends on context but in the scope of PvP there's no evidence of that, and the evidence we have for PvE looks pretty grim for Sorcs. And for that reason, I think the passives should come in strong, not broken, but subclassing in PvP, at least top tier subclassing, delivers a lot of power.

My build does very well in PvP but I'm heavily subclassed and crafted to do it. I'm advocating that Sorc passives not be nerfed even though I have no intention of using them. I'm doing it for the people who want to play a pure-sorc and have a real chance of being effective in PvP without having to run one or two "prime" specs for Sorc and which limits build crafting.

I don't want Sorc OP, I want them to be able to be in-line and still be able to use, mostly, their own skills. Not broken Dual Wield or world skills that have better functionality, but Sorc skills that despite being slow and having long animations or dated mechanics to them, could still pack a punch with the passives.

And it's not just me. Go to Reddit, go to YT, go see what people are posting content with meta subclass builds and look at the "broken" numbers they're putting out; numbers that are real and exist in PvP.