U50 Feedback Thread for Class Mastery

hoangdz · May 14

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Hello,

I have a feeling that basically nobody really tried to summarize how strong class masteries are, and how big the differences between classes are (I was shocked when I finished calculations). So I decided to calculate it myself. Please note that this is PvP perspective for every class chosing strongest possible class masteries, and summary shows how big the bonuses are when it comes to damage and survivability.

Sure there may be some miscalculations (I'm not an expert for every class) but it shows idea which class got bigger buff, and which got smaller buff, also it shows how big the differences are.

Conclussions, from weakest buffs to strongest ones:

1. NB masteries are a joke. Not worth to play pure NB, subclassing will be way stronger.
2. Arcanist looks second weakest, but I have no idea about this class, so I can't tell more. Probably should be buffed.
3. DK Passives seems ok when the fight is long enough, other than that the are not so strong. However it is not an issue, as DK is already reworked class. No point buffing it, no point subclassing.
4. Templar survivability increase is about 30%, which is very nice. However dmg increase is trash (10%). Templar only beats Arcanist and NB.
Note here, if judgment brand increase dmg by 2000 as original design, dmg increase in PvP would be 900. This is about 15% increase for hard hitting class abilities, and about 60% increase in jabs (2400/1500 = 1,6). Considering this skills dmg increase (no increase for LA or status effects), dps increase in original state would be about 25-30% (which would actually be perfect state).
5. Necro passives are super strong especially in terms of survivability. But personally I don't think they need nerf, as necro was the worst class, so the biggest buff is explainatory. Semms like very good state.
6. Warden passives are super strong, both survivability and damage. Personally I feel like they should be little nerfed, maybe reduce stacks from 5 status effects to 4 or even 3. So no disdain is needed for full bonus, but full bonus is lowered.
7. ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, Sorcerer. Serioulsly 27% spell dmg (30k mag, you can go higher) is like 25% more damage and healing. This one passive ALONE is stronger than templar 2 passives (not to mention arcanist and NB). But gues what? Second passive is even stronger, much stronger. It gives you 1k stamina every second, even when you are blocking (remember DK's spamming cinder storm while blocking forever? THIS IS EXACTLY THIS PASSIVE, BUT WORKS WITH EVERY SKILL). But this is not the end, you also have 700 magicka recovery every second, so you can streak whenever you please. ALSO it gives you 3k HOT. ONE PASSIVE = 3K HOT, 2K stamina regen, 1,5k magicka regen. Lets compare it to templar - 2k HOT, no regen. Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please read my calculations, and act IMMEDIATLY. Sorcerer passives are 10x stronger than NB passives, and 2 times stronger than average class passives. This is absolute madness and can be easily fixed without touching PVE.

Do you want another patch of DK meta? If you don’t, then why would you halve their effectiveness lol? That’s like making them as trash as NB’s class masteries. Just make Conservation of Energy work off class skills only and buff other class masteries.

Aces-High-82 · May 14

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Hello,

I have a feeling that basically nobody really tried to summarize how strong class masteries are, and how big the differences between classes are (I was shocked when I finished calculations). So I decided to calculate it myself. Please note that this is PvP perspective for every class chosing strongest possible class masteries, and summary shows how big the bonuses are when it comes to damage and survivability.

Sure there may be some miscalculations (I'm not an expert for every class) but it shows idea which class got bigger buff, and which got smaller buff, also it shows how big the differences are.

Conclussions, from weakest buffs to strongest ones:

1. NB masteries are a joke. Not worth to play pure NB, subclassing will be way stronger.
2. Arcanist looks second weakest, but I have no idea about this class, so I can't tell more. Probably should be buffed.
3. DK Passives seems ok when the fight is long enough, other than that the are not so strong. However it is not an issue, as DK is already reworked class. No point buffing it, no point subclassing.
4. Templar survivability increase is about 30%, which is very nice. However dmg increase is trash (10%). Templar only beats Arcanist and NB.
Note here, if judgment brand increase dmg by 2000 as original design, dmg increase in PvP would be 900. This is about 15% increase for hard hitting class abilities, and about 60% increase in jabs (2400/1500 = 1,6). Considering this skills dmg increase (no increase for LA or status effects), dps increase in original state would be about 25-30% (which would actually be perfect state).
5. Necro passives are super strong especially in terms of survivability. But personally I don't think they need nerf, as necro was the worst class, so the biggest buff is explainatory. Semms like very good state.
6. Warden passives are super strong, both survivability and damage. Personally I feel like they should be little nerfed, maybe reduce stacks from 5 status effects to 4 or even 3. So no disdain is needed for full bonus, but full bonus is lowered.
7. ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, Sorcerer. Serioulsly 27% spell dmg (30k mag, you can go higher) is like 25% more damage and healing. This one passive ALONE is stronger than templar 2 passives (not to mention arcanist and NB). But gues what? Second passive is even stronger, much stronger. It gives you 1k stamina every second, even when you are blocking (remember DK's spamming cinder storm while blocking forever? THIS IS EXACTLY THIS PASSIVE, BUT WORKS WITH EVERY SKILL). But this is not the end, you also have 700 magicka recovery every second, so you can streak whenever you please. ALSO it gives you 3k HOT. ONE PASSIVE = 3K HOT, 2K stamina regen, 1,5k magicka regen. Lets compare it to templar - 2k HOT, no regen. Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please read my calculations, and act IMMEDIATLY. Sorcerer passives are 10x stronger than NB passives, and 2 times stronger than average class passives. This is absolute madness and can be easily fixed without touching PVE.

Font of Power gives 1% per 1750 mag or stam whichever is higher. Please redo the math here.

Dracane · May 14

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Hello,

I have a feeling that basically nobody really tried to summarize how strong class masteries are, and how big the differences between classes are (I was shocked when I finished calculations). So I decided to calculate it myself. Please note that this is PvP perspective for every class chosing strongest possible class masteries, and summary shows how big the bonuses are when it comes to damage and survivability.

Sure there may be some miscalculations (I'm not an expert for every class) but it shows idea which class got bigger buff, and which got smaller buff, also it shows how big the differences are.

Conclussions, from weakest buffs to strongest ones:

1. NB masteries are a joke. Not worth to play pure NB, subclassing will be way stronger.
2. Arcanist looks second weakest, but I have no idea about this class, so I can't tell more. Probably should be buffed.
3. DK Passives seems ok when the fight is long enough, other than that the are not so strong. However it is not an issue, as DK is already reworked class. No point buffing it, no point subclassing.
4. Templar survivability increase is about 30%, which is very nice. However dmg increase is trash (10%). Templar only beats Arcanist and NB.
Note here, if judgment brand increase dmg by 2000 as original design, dmg increase in PvP would be 900. This is about 15% increase for hard hitting class abilities, and about 60% increase in jabs (2400/1500 = 1,6). Considering this skills dmg increase (no increase for LA or status effects), dps increase in original state would be about 25-30% (which would actually be perfect state).
5. Necro passives are super strong especially in terms of survivability. But personally I don't think they need nerf, as necro was the worst class, so the biggest buff is explainatory. Semms like very good state.
6. Warden passives are super strong, both survivability and damage. Personally I feel like they should be little nerfed, maybe reduce stacks from 5 status effects to 4 or even 3. So no disdain is needed for full bonus, but full bonus is lowered.
7. ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, Sorcerer. Serioulsly 27% spell dmg (30k mag, you can go higher) is like 25% more damage and healing. This one passive ALONE is stronger than templar 2 passives (not to mention arcanist and NB). But gues what? Second passive is even stronger, much stronger. It gives you 1k stamina every second, even when you are blocking (remember DK's spamming cinder storm while blocking forever? THIS IS EXACTLY THIS PASSIVE, BUT WORKS WITH EVERY SKILL). But this is not the end, you also have 700 magicka recovery every second, so you can streak whenever you please. ALSO it gives you 3k HOT. ONE PASSIVE = 3K HOT, 2K stamina regen, 1,5k magicka regen. Lets compare it to templar - 2k HOT, no regen. Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please read my calculations, and act IMMEDIATLY. Sorcerer passives are 10x stronger than NB passives, and 2 times stronger than average class passives. This is absolute madness and can be easily fixed without touching PVE.

Font of Power gives 1% per 1750 mag or stam whichever is higher. Please redo the math here.

Even then I would not trust anything to be accurate. The sheet also translates 20.000 stamina to 2.000 spell damage, even though it's 1.904 spell damage. I think the numbers are just flourish and foreplay to arrive at the real heart and goal of the post, which is of course point number 7 and its fervent plea.

VinnyGambini · May 14

@Dracane Tabulation of horrors? I made a mistake with 1 sorcerer passive, I added 10% spell dmg by mistake. It's indeed 17%, not 27%.

So: normally sorcerer PvP build has around 4500 spell dmg *1,17= 5265. So it's 8265 / 7500 = 10% damage and healing increased. These values may vary, depending on the build, that's why I threw various values.

Sure, I made mistake with this 1 single passive, but the statement remains. 1st sorc passive = 10% more damage and maybe 8% survivability. 2nd passive = 30% more heals + 30-40% more tanky thanks to constant blocking + mag sustain = 60-70% more survivability, broken. Summarizing both passives sorc will be around 80% more effective in PvP, not 110% as previously stated, but still definetely the strongest.

ZOS should check this calculations IMMEDIATLY, by themselves, to see how broken are some passives compared to others.

If you think these are tabulation of horrors, make your own calculations, I will gladly see them.

PS: have you read my post?

"Sure there may be some miscalculations (I'm not an expert for every class) but it shows idea which class got bigger buff, and which got smaller buff, also it shows how big the differences are."

Edit:

"Just make Conservation of Energy work off class skills only and buff other class masteries."

I can't agree that this is a good solution. Streaking 3 times in a row to escape, will also restore resources and heal you. IMO This is bad idea.

NxJoeyD · May 14

VinnyGambini wrote: »

So: normally sorcerer PvP build has around 4500 spell dmg *1,17= 5265. So it's 8265 / 7500 = 10% damage and healing increased. These values may vary, depending on the build, that's why I threw various values.

These are probably reasonable averages. A 10% net increase is in-line with other passives so there's really no issue here.

Also, just a point to remember when doing the math for the impact of Font, it's based off of your base W/S damage, ignoring CP buffs to that stat. So when you calc the rate, you'll need to make sure you subtract any W/S enhancing CP out first.

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Sure, I made mistake with this 1 single passive, but the statement remains. 1st sorc passive = 10% more damage and maybe 8% survivability. 2nd passive = 30% more heals + 30-40% more tanky thanks to constant blocking + mag sustain = 60-70% more survivability, broken. Summarizing both passives sorc will be around 80% more effective in PvP, not 110% as previously stated, but still definetely the strongest.

A couple of things here:

This assumes a Stam based build. A Mag build isn't going to (near) perma-block so if you're assumption is based on persistent block in order to achieve your perceived survivability values then we have to calc more than one scenario. Yes, Mag builds will block but they can't just sit behind block to the degree a Stam build could.

As for your calculations: on the average Mag based Sorc running 30k health and 35K Mag the sustain returns from CoE are going to be (roughly) 715 Mag & 270 Stam per cast, not the 1k each that you're showing in your chart. Still strong, yes, but not quite as much as you're estimating.

As for the average healing, on a Sorc with those same values, PvP adjusted, You're looking at a base heal-per-cast return of around 1.6k to 1.7k non crit and upwards of 2.2k to 2.5k with crit. So the mid point of about 2k heal per cast is more realistic if we factor in that some of them will crit.

A 2k heal per cast is strong, but again, if we're looking at that in the context of PvP where consistent (not incremental) damage bursts range from 7k to upwards of 15k per second then I don't see a 2k passive heal as broken in & of itself. Yeah, I can see a Sorc stacking other things with that passive heal to enhance the benefit but there would be some tradeoff to do that.

VinnyGambini wrote: »

"Just make Conservation of Energy work off class skills only and buff other class masteries."

I can't agree that this is a good solution. Streaking 3 times in a row to escape, will also restore resources and heal you. IMO This is bad idea.

Streak has a progressive cost so that's not a good example here. Any sorc that uses Streak 3x will nab a heal but won't net resources because the progressive cost will consume much more than what is returned.

acanca · May 15

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Hello,

I have a feeling that basically nobody really tried to summarize how strong class masteries are, and how big the differences between classes are (I was shocked when I finished calculations). So I decided to calculate it myself. Please note that this is PvP perspective for every class chosing strongest possible class masteries, and summary shows how big the bonuses are when it comes to damage and survivability.

Sure there may be some miscalculations (I'm not an expert for every class) but it shows idea which class got bigger buff, and which got smaller buff, also it shows how big the differences are.

Conclussions, from weakest buffs to strongest ones:

1. NB masteries are a joke. Not worth to play pure NB, subclassing will be way stronger.
2. Arcanist looks second weakest, but I have no idea about this class, so I can't tell more. Probably should be buffed.
3. DK Passives seems ok when the fight is long enough, other than that the are not so strong. However it is not an issue, as DK is already reworked class. No point buffing it, no point subclassing.
4. Templar survivability increase is about 30%, which is very nice. However dmg increase is trash (10%). Templar only beats Arcanist and NB.
Note here, if judgment brand increase dmg by 2000 as original design, dmg increase in PvP would be 900. This is about 15% increase for hard hitting class abilities, and about 60% increase in jabs (2400/1500 = 1,6). Considering this skills dmg increase (no increase for LA or status effects), dps increase in original state would be about 25-30% (which would actually be perfect state).
5. Necro passives are super strong especially in terms of survivability. But personally I don't think they need nerf, as necro was the worst class, so the biggest buff is explainatory. Semms like very good state.
6. Warden passives are super strong, both survivability and damage. Personally I feel like they should be little nerfed, maybe reduce stacks from 5 status effects to 4 or even 3. So no disdain is needed for full bonus, but full bonus is lowered.
7. ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, Sorcerer. Serioulsly 27% spell dmg (30k mag, you can go higher) is like 25% more damage and healing. This one passive ALONE is stronger than templar 2 passives (not to mention arcanist and NB). But gues what? Second passive is even stronger, much stronger. It gives you 1k stamina every second, even when you are blocking (remember DK's spamming cinder storm while blocking forever? THIS IS EXACTLY THIS PASSIVE, BUT WORKS WITH EVERY SKILL). But this is not the end, you also have 700 magicka recovery every second, so you can streak whenever you please. ALSO it gives you 3k HOT. ONE PASSIVE = 3K HOT, 2K stamina regen, 1,5k magicka regen. Lets compare it to templar - 2k HOT, no regen. Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please read my calculations, and act IMMEDIATLY. Sorcerer passives are 10x stronger than NB passives, and 2 times stronger than average class passives. This is absolute madness and can be easily fixed without touching PVE.

I disagree that necro is strong, they are survivable but their single best passive for survivability is literally a worse version of CoE and they lack damage. The 10% conditional damage boost they got might be meaningful for pve but for pvp its way less important, you can check how prelevant merciless charge is for pve yet is never run for pvp as an example.

I also disagree that nbs passives are weak, or rather yes they are weak in a duel but pure class nbs will probably have a niche gank oriented build which is a shame for all involved. I'll still try to make a brawler nb, though i agree that its an uphill battle.

Dunno about warden, probably strong as you say, felt ok when i tried it, i already run a serpents build on live on warden so i'll continue doing the same, but it feels shoehorned into a specific build which is honestly, boring. I like build diversity and atm i can honestly only see running a singular build on warden. I would love to see the sustain passive recieve a big buff to make magden viable, dont really care if they nerf the weapon damage one in exchange, 125 mag or stam every 2 seconds is a joke. Also i think people who encountered the serpents warden build might be thinking its overpowered because they havent seen it on live yet, it consistently does 4.5k+ damage on live, the build was already good.

Templars, honestly felt alrightish, the 600 weapon damage + hot was my go to during pts. The hot generating crazy amounts of ultimate passively meshed really well with the templar balorgh ult dump playstyle and templar felt really tanky with all the hots. I agree that templars damage done passive needs a touching up and i would also love to see their sustain passive retain the sustain part after the shield breaks because templar feels shoehorned into these 2 passives but overall, imo pure class templars will be viable.I would also love to see wrathsun IA set be given both magicka and stamina regen, currently it does less damage than something like null arca even with close to ideal conditions and only restores magicka when the stam morph of jabs is usually the preferred spammable for templars.

I only tried max hp brawler dk with pyre, felt really good, felt a little bit degenerate if im being honest but what you gonna do, they gave dk so many max hp tools, would be foolish not to abuse them.

Sorc felt extremely strong, most of the strength imo stems from CoE and it synergizes extremely well with Font of Power but sorc also has extremely good other passives. I'll for example go for a silly max hp bash build with CoE and sphere of influence, not only does it turn all your shielded assaults into 10k self shields but you also get 13k shields with hardened and you get old bashcanist levels of sustain or even more with way better passive healing thanks to CoE. Will it be good, no there are way stronger stuff you can do on sorc but its frankly both fun and terrifying how many borderline broken stuff sorcerer passives allow.

Overall next patch is imo the patch of pure class sorc and dks patch with a side of warden and mayhaps templars, im not counting templars out yet though i do honestly wish for Zos to take notice and either adjust sorc and dk or help other classes up, some classes feel like they have 2 borderline viable passives while some have many borderline broken ones.

hoangdz · May 15

VinnyGambini wrote: »

"Just make Conservation of Energy work off class skills only and buff other class masteries."

I can't agree that this is a good solution. Streaking 3 times in a row to escape, will also restore resources and heal you. IMO This is bad idea.

I don't think you realize that Blood Magic actually works best with these 2 things:

1) Vigor and Healing Soul

Blood Magic's interaction with Vigor and Healing Soul turns a strong self-HoT into a mini burst heal, and a strong self-burst heal into an even stronger one. Removing them would 100% make Sorc's healing less powerful.

2) Non-Sorc spammables

Melee Sorcs always use non-class spammables, and most ranged Sorcs generally need Ele Wep/Crushing Shock. The only exception is Bow Sorc, but that spec already procs BM off Cwep anyway. Removing BM's interaction with non-Sorc spammables would 100% reduce its healing.

These changes ensure that only pure Sorcs benefit from this passive, and pure Sorc is rather easy to deal with as most of its damage is blockable/dodgable. Nerfing its effectiveness by 50% basically kills diversity because now Sorcs have to slot Dark Deal again, which means bar space issues become a problem, which means less build paths to choose from. No thanks.

VinnyGambini · May 15

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

hoangdz · May 15

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

Dracane · May 15

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I am glad that your build works without Dark Deal. I don't want to be forced into Monomyth as other mythics are more interesting. So I still need minor berserk, and I also think the sustain from CoE gets greatly overestimated. Under pressure and outside of 1v1s, where mobility is also required, I still need help.

Dropping Dark Deal is not feasible. In a 1v1, all of this is easier, but not out there.

acanca · May 15

Dracane wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Look guys, thx for feedback, but I think you missed a point. My post wasn't about getting exact values, it was about comparing power level, ans pointing overpowered and underpowered passives. Differences are big, no matter how you calculate.

This needs to be evaluated by ZOS.

No, I didn't miss a point. I think you're the one instead lol. If you have read my previous posts in this thread as well as several others, you would know that I have been advocating for adjustments to Conservation of Energy. I am fine with you comparing power levels between different class masteries because it's necessary for context, but when you say something like this:

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Summary, sorcerer passives makes sorecerers 2x stronger in PvP. Halving this passives would make it 50% pvp effectiveness increase, making it perfectly balanced.

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

2) Sorcs will now have to slot Dark Deal again, which completely kills build diversity

My suggestion ensures that Sorcs can still compete with meta classes and have the option to explore different build paths, while losing enough HPS that it doesn't feel impossible to kill.

I am glad that your build works without Dark Deal. I don't want to be forced into Monomyth as other mythics are more interesting. So I still need minor berserk, and I also think the sustain from CoE gets greatly overestimated. Under pressure and outside of 1v1s, where mobility is also required, I still need help.

Dropping Dark Deal is not feasible. In a 1v1, all of this is easier, but not out there.

CoE is without a doubt the single strongest sustain passive in the game and the fact that it can proc in 0.8 sec by doing virtually anything is funny af, i was skeptical at first as well but i tried it out both in duels and overland and at higher mag pools you are absolutely cruising.

Obviously though if you abuse streak you'll run out, but thats just a sign of a bad player not really the fault of the passive. Just because it doesnt allow for 4k mag sustain per second like how core of flames does doesnt mean its bad. In fact i consider is honestly better for sustain because you dont have to recast it every 4 seconds just to get maximum use out of CoE.

Again, 750 mag back and 450 stam back per second (and you can proc this more frequently than that but we are being generous just to downplay it), is roughly equivalent to 1200 mag and stam sustain.

Its frankly insane that we are trying to downplay on average 1200 mag and stam sustain when templar gets a 300 mag and stam sustain that goes away when you blow air on their tiny shield, wardens get 125 mag and stam back every 2 seconds (lol) and arcanists got their whole sustain passive reworked with an equally worthless major vit and minor cowardice passive (lol)

NxJoeyD · May 15

hoangdz wrote: »

Then unfortunately I have to disagree with you on that. Most Sorc builds will gain between 15-20% WD/SD from Font of Power and restore between ~3000-4600 HP (before Battle Spirit) from Blood Magic, ~500-800 for main resource, and ~350-550 for off resource from Conservation of Energy. If you halve these values, then Sorc would only get ~7.5-10% WD, ~1500-2300 HP, ~250-400 main resource, and ~175-275 off resource from these class masteries. That's too steep of a nerf and would result in these 2 scenarios:

1) Sorcs cannot compete with DK & Warden who can both deal 6k average DPS, and the upcoming WW spec that can easily deal 8k average DPS

This is pretty spot on. In reality, in PvP, most Sorcs are only going to realize an average of 2.k DPS (with some crit factored in) healing per cast. A value of 2.k is a realistic number that's reflective of the broader sense of the Sorc class.

That said, my Mag Sorc currently deals over 7.6k DPS in PvP right now in U49, and I'm NOT meta, not crit, and that's without my CP.

The subclassed metas are running way, way more than 7k to 8k DPS in PvP, try more like 10k and up.

A Sorc with these passives will out-perform, say, any Warden running around 6k DPS in PvP, it's supposed to, the intended competition with these passives are the higher end subclassed builds.

acanca wrote: »

Its frankly insane that we are trying to downplay on average 1200 mag and stam sustain when templar gets a 300 mag and stam sustain that goes away when you blow air on their tiny shield, wardens get 125 mag and stam back every 2 seconds (lol) and arcanists got their whole sustain passive reworked with an equally worthless major vit and minor cowardice passive (lol)

Agreed, it's the strongest sustain passive, hands down. But it's not delivering 1200 Mag & Stam recovery's worth of value. It's delivering, on average, 710 primary stat per cast & about 260 secondary stat per cast. It doesn't deliver equal amounts of both. It's still strong, but not 1,200 each strong.

Let's also not pretend that anyone out there can't scribe Magickasteal to a Healing spell to synergize passive sustain. If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop Mag/sec with consistent uptime. It's not exactly the deliverable that CoE is, I admit, but it's available to anyone in any class or subclass and synergizes with a common rotation. Even if I cut that and assume M/S hits 2 people that's 168/s and if the player is running Wretched then that's 531/s vs CoE that's delivering 710. Yes, CoE is stronger but it's not as if it is light years ahead of what's achievable already.

I keep hearing the concept of "infinite sustain" with CoE but that begs the question: "Who out here is running against top tier meta players and doesn't already have a sustain strat"? If your build is currently working in U49 and you do not have a sustain issue then CoE isn't presenting as much of an opportunity for you. If one already has solid sustain then they don't need even more sustain.

The nice thing about these passives delivering on healing + sustain is that it's more of a blank slate in terms of build variety. It does open the door for Sorcs to be more fluid with build crafting by changing up their source of sustain for these passives rather than what they're currently using and enabling more opportunity to do more than heavy attack focus as a Mag Sorc or running dual wield Stam Sorc.

Some Sorc builds are absolutely going to synergize more strongly with these passives, 100%, but in the context of going up against a meta that's delivering in the ballpark of 10k+ DPS in PvP a strong sustain makes sense.

ArctosCethlenn · May 15

Again, 750 mag back and 450 stam back per second (and you can proc this more frequently than that but we are being generous just to downplay it), is roughly equivalent to 1200 mag and stam sustain.

Its frankly insane that we are trying to downplay on average 1200 mag and stam sustain when templar gets a 300 mag and stam sustain that goes away when you blow air on their tiny shield, wardens get 125 mag and stam back every 2 seconds (lol) and arcanists got their whole sustain passive reworked with an equally worthless major vit and minor cowardice passive (lol)

Double that value for sorc, isn't it, since the recovery stat ticks every 2 seconds not every one. And ofc the whole "stam recovery turns off while blocking but the sorc passive won't"

ArctosCethlenn · May 15

Let's also not pretend that anyone out there can't scribe Magickasteal to a Healing spell to synergize passive sustain. If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc. It's not exactly the deliverable that CoE is, I admit, but it's available to anyone in any class or subclass and synergizes with a common rotation. Even if I cut that and assume Contingency hits 2 people that's 336/s and if the player is running Wretched then that's 531/s vs CoE that's delivering 710. Yes, CoE is stronger but it's not as if it is light years ahead of what's achievable already.

Magickasteal has a 1s icd dude, nice try.

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

NxJoeyD · May 15

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Again, 750 mag back and 450 stam back per second (and you can proc this more frequently than that but we are being generous just to downplay it), is roughly equivalent to 1200 mag and stam sustain.

Its frankly insane that we are trying to downplay on average 1200 mag and stam sustain when templar gets a 300 mag and stam sustain that goes away when you blow air on their tiny shield, wardens get 125 mag and stam back every 2 seconds (lol) and arcanists got their whole sustain passive reworked with an equally worthless major vit and minor cowardice passive (lol)

Double that value for sorc, isn't it, since the recovery stat ticks every 2 seconds not every one. And ofc the whole "stam recovery turns off while blocking but the sorc passive won't"

Recovery ticks every 2 seconds, yes, but CoE procs off of a per-cast basis so the optimal rate of recovery from the CoE passive is per second as the Sorc (assumably) costs a per cast activity each second.

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Let's also not pretend that anyone out there can't scribe Magickasteal to a Healing spell to synergize passive sustain. If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc. It's not exactly the deliverable that CoE is, I admit, but it's available to anyone in any class or subclass and synergizes with a common rotation. Even if I cut that and assume Contingency hits 2 people that's 336/s and if the player is running Wretched then that's 531/s vs CoE that's delivering 710. Yes, CoE is stronger but it's not as if it is light years ahead of what's achievable already.

Magickasteal has a 1s icd dude, nice try.

No, Magickasteal, as a named debuff, returns resources every second. Magickasteal via status effect applies for 4 seconds returning once per second; directly applied Magickasteal will return Mag every second for the stated duration.

Go scribe either of the skills, the return is per second.

ArctosCethlenn · May 15

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Again, 750 mag back and 450 stam back per second (and you can proc this more frequently than that but we are being generous just to downplay it), is roughly equivalent to 1200 mag and stam sustain.

Its frankly insane that we are trying to downplay on average 1200 mag and stam sustain when templar gets a 300 mag and stam sustain that goes away when you blow air on their tiny shield, wardens get 125 mag and stam back every 2 seconds (lol) and arcanists got their whole sustain passive reworked with an equally worthless major vit and minor cowardice passive (lol)

Double that value for sorc, isn't it, since the recovery stat ticks every 2 seconds not every one. And ofc the whole "stam recovery turns off while blocking but the sorc passive won't"

Recovery ticks every 2 seconds, yes, but CoE procs off of a per-cast basis so the optimal rate of recovery is per second as the Sorc (assumably) costs a per cast activity each second.

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Let's also not pretend that anyone out there can't scribe Magickasteal to a Healing spell to synergize passive sustain. If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc. It's not exactly the deliverable that CoE is, I admit, but it's available to anyone in any class or subclass and synergizes with a common rotation. Even if I cut that and assume Contingency hits 2 people that's 336/s and if the player is running Wretched then that's 531/s vs CoE that's delivering 710. Yes, CoE is stronger but it's not as if it is light years ahead of what's achievable already.

Magickasteal has a 1s icd dude, nice try.

No, Magickasteal, as a named debuff, returns resources every second. Magickasteal via status effect applies for 4 seconds returning once per second; directly applied Magickasteal will return Mag every second for the stated duration.

Go scribe either of the skills, the return is per second.

Once. Per. Second. Not once per second per target you put Magickasteal on.

And I'm saying that since recovery the stat ticks every 2 seconds, getting 750 mag back per second from the mastery is about the same as 1500 mag recovery from the recovery stat. There's a bit of wiggle room for % increases to the recovery stats, but still.

NxJoeyD · May 15

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Again, 750 mag back and 450 stam back per second (and you can proc this more frequently than that but we are being generous just to downplay it), is roughly equivalent to 1200 mag and stam sustain.

Its frankly insane that we are trying to downplay on average 1200 mag and stam sustain when templar gets a 300 mag and stam sustain that goes away when you blow air on their tiny shield, wardens get 125 mag and stam back every 2 seconds (lol) and arcanists got their whole sustain passive reworked with an equally worthless major vit and minor cowardice passive (lol)

Double that value for sorc, isn't it, since the recovery stat ticks every 2 seconds not every one. And ofc the whole "stam recovery turns off while blocking but the sorc passive won't"

Recovery ticks every 2 seconds, yes, but CoE procs off of a per-cast basis so the optimal rate of recovery is per second as the Sorc (assumably) costs a per cast activity each second.

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Let's also not pretend that anyone out there can't scribe Magickasteal to a Healing spell to synergize passive sustain. If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc. It's not exactly the deliverable that CoE is, I admit, but it's available to anyone in any class or subclass and synergizes with a common rotation. Even if I cut that and assume Contingency hits 2 people that's 336/s and if the player is running Wretched then that's 531/s vs CoE that's delivering 710. Yes, CoE is stronger but it's not as if it is light years ahead of what's achievable already.

Magickasteal has a 1s icd dude, nice try.

No, Magickasteal, as a named debuff, returns resources every second. Magickasteal via status effect applies for 4 seconds returning once per second; directly applied Magickasteal will return Mag every second for the stated duration.

Go scribe either of the skills, the return is per second.

Once. Per. Second. Not once per second per target you put Magickasteal on.

True. The main point of applying it to enemies is to maintain uptime. If one dies or is cleansed then you continue to receive the recovery. A player slotting MS on a burst skill and running Vitality is going to get less than the CoE passive gives Sorcs but having the debuff on multiple targets helps ensure consistency.

ArctosCethlenn · May 15

NxJoeyD wrote: »

True. The main point of applying it to enemies is to maintain uptime. If one dies or is cleansed then you continue to receive the recovery. A player slotting MS on a burst skill and running Vitality is going to get less than the CoE passive gives Sorcs but having the debuff on multiple targets helps ensure consistency.

If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc.

Do you maybe see the issue with your defense of Conservation of Energy now?

NxJoeyD · May 15

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

Not at all. Wretched is a common high tier set in PvP for the purposes of sustain.

One could say the exact same for Rallying Cry, it's not a damage set but it's a staple among builds in PvP.

Just depends on the build. The Sorc CoE passive would allow one who is currently running Wretched to replace it with a damage set or something else buld-centric.

NxJoeyD · May 15

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

True. The main point of applying it to enemies is to maintain uptime. If one dies or is cleansed then you continue to receive the recovery. A player slotting MS on a burst skill and running Vitality is going to get less than the CoE passive gives Sorcs but having the debuff on multiple targets helps ensure consistency.

If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc.

Do you maybe see the issue with your defense of Conservation of Energy now?

No, I had wrong math but the cornerstone of my defense of CoE is that it's a strong sustain in the context of a PvP meta that's delivering upwards of 10k+ DPS, enabling Sorcs to be more dynamic with build crafting and damage output.

ArctosCethlenn · May 15

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

Not at all. Wretched is a common high tier set in PvP for the purposes of sustain.

One could say the exact same for Rallying Cry, it'[s not a damage set but it's a staple among builds in PvP.

Just depends on the build. The Sorc CoE passive would allow one who is currently running Wretched to replace it with a damage set or something else buld-centric.

And that's the point, that the mastery allows you to avoid building sustain on gear and instead stack even more raw damage and resources, amplifying the mastery's power vs someone who does need to run WV.

Pretending rallying cry isn't a damage set is truly something special.

NxJoeyD · May 15

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

Not at all. Wretched is a common high tier set in PvP for the purposes of sustain.

One could say the exact same for Rallying Cry, it'[s not a damage set but it's a staple among builds in PvP.

Just depends on the build. The Sorc CoE passive would allow one who is currently running Wretched to replace it with a damage set or something else buld-centric.

And that's the point, that the mastery allows you to avoid building sustain on gear and instead stack even more raw damage and resources, amplifying the mastery's power vs someone who does need to run WV.

Pretending rallying cry isn't a damage set is truly something special.

Correct, the mastery precisely allows that .. On a class with no real spammable damage skill and where the most commonly useful skills don't synergize well with the passive:

Frags has a 0.8 cast time so a Sorc isn't seeing optimum CoE return with that skill, almost half really. Haunting Curse is a not-tick DoT (which can be cleansed), Hurricane is cast once per 20 seconds, Bound Armaments has to be charged, If one is running Ward it's a 6 second duration, Surge is a 30 second duration, Streak has a progressive cost and we already established that's not a method to maintain CoE.

That's your top Sorc sourced skills in PvP and not a single one of them would support optimal uptime on CoE, which drives one to World/Weapon skills to maximize that, which is fine, but those skills don't synergize with the overall class, seeing a penalty to Expert Mage for each of those outside skills one needs to slot .. Exploitation is only on DM cast, so yes, it's strong but it also has some caveats.

Going outside of the class for skills is far more beneficial for Stam Sorcs than it is for Mag Sorcs which really affects how strong this passive is when it's applied to everyone in the class. Not everyone is a Stam Sorc.

As for Rallying Cry, no, it's not a "damage set". Rallying Cry doesn't deliver damage, it enhances your own damage so the amount of extra damage Rallying Cry buffs depends on what sort of damage you're putting out already and how many people it affects. The main point of Rally Cry is the Crit resist & chance, as far as damage sets or damage enhancing sets go there's stronger options out there than Rallying Cry so if one was looking to slot a set that's focused on purely damage then Rallying Cry wouldn't be at the top of that list.

ArctosCethlenn · May 15

But the mastery procs from casting anything, it can't

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

Not at all. Wretched is a common high tier set in PvP for the purposes of sustain.

One could say the exact same for Rallying Cry, it'[s not a damage set but it's a staple among builds in PvP.

Just depends on the build. The Sorc CoE passive would allow one who is currently running Wretched to replace it with a damage set or something else buld-centric.

And that's the point, that the mastery allows you to avoid building sustain on gear and instead stack even more raw damage and resources, amplifying the mastery's power vs someone who does need to run WV.

Pretending rallying cry isn't a damage set is truly something special.

Correct, the mastery precisely allows that .. On a class with no real spammable damage skill and where the most commonly useful skills don't synergize well with the passive:

Frags has a 0.8 cast time so a Sorc isn't seeing optimum CoE return with that skill, almost half really. Haunting Curse is a not-tick DoT (which can be cleansed), Hurricane is cast once per 20 seconds, Bound Armaments has to be charged, If one is running Ward it's a 6 second duration, Surge is a 30 second duration, Streak has a progressive cost and we already established that's not a method to maintain CoE.

That's your top Sorc sourced skills in PvP and not a single one of them would support optimal uptime on CoE, which drives one to World/Weapon skills to maximize that, which is fine, but those skills don't synergize with the overall class, seeing a penalty to Expert Mage for each of those outside skills one needs to slot .. Exploitation is only on DM cast, so yes, it's strong but it also has some caveats.

Going outside of the class for skills is far more beneficial for Stam Sorcs than it is for Mag Sorcs which really affects how strong this passive is when it's applied to everyone in the class. Not everyone is a Stam Sorc.

As for Rallying Cry, no, it's not a "damage set". Rallying Cry doesn't deliver damage, it enhances your own damage so the amount of extra damage Rallying Cry buffs depends on what sort of damage you're putting out already and how many people it affects. The main point of Rally Cry is the Crit resist & chance, as far as damage sets or damage enhancing sets go there's stronger options out there than Rallying Cry so if one was looking to slot a set that's focused on purely damage then Rallying Cry wouldn't be at the top of that list.

1) CoE procs from anything, not only sorcerer skills? EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO SYNERGIZES WITH THE PASSIVE. There are *two* free skills that won't proc it, total.

2) name some damage sets.

NxJoeyD · May 15

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

But the mastery procs from casting anything, it can't

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

Not at all. Wretched is a common high tier set in PvP for the purposes of sustain.

One could say the exact same for Rallying Cry, it'[s not a damage set but it's a staple among builds in PvP.

Just depends on the build. The Sorc CoE passive would allow one who is currently running Wretched to replace it with a damage set or something else buld-centric.

And that's the point, that the mastery allows you to avoid building sustain on gear and instead stack even more raw damage and resources, amplifying the mastery's power vs someone who does need to run WV.

Pretending rallying cry isn't a damage set is truly something special.

Correct, the mastery precisely allows that .. On a class with no real spammable damage skill and where the most commonly useful skills don't synergize well with the passive:

Frags has a 0.8 cast time so a Sorc isn't seeing optimum CoE return with that skill, almost half really. Haunting Curse is a not-tick DoT (which can be cleansed), Hurricane is cast once per 20 seconds, Bound Armaments has to be charged, If one is running Ward it's a 6 second duration, Surge is a 30 second duration, Streak has a progressive cost and we already established that's not a method to maintain CoE.

That's your top Sorc sourced skills in PvP and not a single one of them would support optimal uptime on CoE, which drives one to World/Weapon skills to maximize that, which is fine, but those skills don't synergize with the overall class, seeing a penalty to Expert Mage for each of those outside skills one needs to slot .. Exploitation is only on DM cast, so yes, it's strong but it also has some caveats.

Going outside of the class for skills is far more beneficial for Stam Sorcs than it is for Mag Sorcs which really affects how strong this passive is when it's applied to everyone in the class. Not everyone is a Stam Sorc.

As for Rallying Cry, no, it's not a "damage set". Rallying Cry doesn't deliver damage, it enhances your own damage so the amount of extra damage Rallying Cry buffs depends on what sort of damage you're putting out already and how many people it affects. The main point of Rally Cry is the Crit resist & chance, as far as damage sets or damage enhancing sets go there's stronger options out there than Rallying Cry so if one was looking to slot a set that's focused on purely damage then Rallying Cry wouldn't be at the top of that list.

1) CoE procs from anything, not only sorcerer skills? EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO SYNERGIZES WITH THE PASSIVE. There are *two* free skills that won't proc it, total.

2) name some damage sets.

No, not everything, any activity / ability with a cost. But in order to get the Mastery one needs to be pure-sorc which insinuates that the player is going to slot some degree of sorc skills on their bars. If the majority of those are slow and clunky then that's going to slow down the rate of recovery out of CoE.

Heavy or light attacks, for example, don't proc it. If one was already a heavy attack based Sorc (which many Mags are) then your main offensive action isn't proccing the passive. Again, that's fine, but it means that the player isn't realizing anywhere near the 1 per second return rate on CoE.

The majority of people citing CoE being broken are citing values that assume or factor in CoE being procced persistently and consistently every second. Even if we recognize a proc every 2 seconds that cuts the values people are citing in half. If a Sorc wanted to, for example, heavy attack and dodge persistently then we're realistically looking at a 3 second proc rate; and if the player is a Mag Sorc they're going to spend more Stam then they receive in rebate to do that.

So yes, the CoE synergizes with a lot but in terms of the "maximum scenario" of a proc every single second whilst also using majority Sorc skills that's where it becomes questionable.

The CoE passive allows a Sorc to lean into sustain outside of gear, which is fine, because, again, in the context of going up against subclassed metas hitting at or over 10k DPS a Sorc needs to be able to focus more directly on quick burst in order to compete with that and Sorc skills don't deliver those burst mechanics nearly as well as a subclassed build.

some better damage sets: Clever Alchemist, Orders Wrath, Deadly Strike, Dark Convergence, Vicious Death, Mechanical Acuity, Rush of Agony, etc.

ArctosCethlenn · May 15

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

But the mastery procs from casting anything, it can't

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Edit: the comparison to wretched is also quite disingenuous since that means you're running wretched instead of a damage or stat set.

Not at all. Wretched is a common high tier set in PvP for the purposes of sustain.

One could say the exact same for Rallying Cry, it'[s not a damage set but it's a staple among builds in PvP.

Just depends on the build. The Sorc CoE passive would allow one who is currently running Wretched to replace it with a damage set or something else buld-centric.

And that's the point, that the mastery allows you to avoid building sustain on gear and instead stack even more raw damage and resources, amplifying the mastery's power vs someone who does need to run WV.

Pretending rallying cry isn't a damage set is truly something special.

Correct, the mastery precisely allows that .. On a class with no real spammable damage skill and where the most commonly useful skills don't synergize well with the passive:

Frags has a 0.8 cast time so a Sorc isn't seeing optimum CoE return with that skill, almost half really. Haunting Curse is a not-tick DoT (which can be cleansed), Hurricane is cast once per 20 seconds, Bound Armaments has to be charged, If one is running Ward it's a 6 second duration, Surge is a 30 second duration, Streak has a progressive cost and we already established that's not a method to maintain CoE.

That's your top Sorc sourced skills in PvP and not a single one of them would support optimal uptime on CoE, which drives one to World/Weapon skills to maximize that, which is fine, but those skills don't synergize with the overall class, seeing a penalty to Expert Mage for each of those outside skills one needs to slot .. Exploitation is only on DM cast, so yes, it's strong but it also has some caveats.

Going outside of the class for skills is far more beneficial for Stam Sorcs than it is for Mag Sorcs which really affects how strong this passive is when it's applied to everyone in the class. Not everyone is a Stam Sorc.

As for Rallying Cry, no, it's not a "damage set". Rallying Cry doesn't deliver damage, it enhances your own damage so the amount of extra damage Rallying Cry buffs depends on what sort of damage you're putting out already and how many people it affects. The main point of Rally Cry is the Crit resist & chance, as far as damage sets or damage enhancing sets go there's stronger options out there than Rallying Cry so if one was looking to slot a set that's focused on purely damage then Rallying Cry wouldn't be at the top of that list.

1) CoE procs from anything, not only sorcerer skills? EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO SYNERGIZES WITH THE PASSIVE. There are *two* free skills that won't proc it, total.

2) name some damage sets.

No, not everything, any activity / ability with a cost. But in order to get the Mastery one needs to be pure-sorc which insinuates that the player is going to slot some degree of sorc skills on their bars. If the majority of those are slow and clunky then that's going to slow down the rate of recovery out of CoE.

Heavy or light attacks, for example, don't proc it. If one was already a heavy attack based Sorc (which many Mags are) then your main offensive action isn't proccing the passive. Again, that's fine, but it means that the player isn't realizing anywhere near the 1 per second return rate on CoE.

The majority of people citing CoE being broken are citing values that assume or factor in CoE being procced persistently and consistently every second. Even if we recognize a proc every 2 seconds that cuts the values people are citing in half. If a Sorc wanted to, for example, heavy attack and dodge persistently then we're realistically looking at a 3 second proc rate; and if the player is a Mag Sorc they're going to spend more Stam then they receive in rebate to do that.

So yes, the CoE synergizes with a lot but in terms of the "maximum scenario" of a proc every single second whilst also using majority Sorc skills that's where it becomes questionable.

The CoE passive allows a Sorc to lean into sustain outside of gear, which is fine, because, again, in the context of going up against subclassed metas hitting at or over 10k DPS a Sorc needs to be able to focus more directly on quick burst in order to compete with that and Sorc skills don't deliver those burst mechanics nearly as well as a subclassed build.

some better damage sets: Clever Alchemist, Orders Wrath, Deadly Strike, Dark Convergence, Vicious Death, Mechanical Acuity, Rush of Agony, etc.

Ok but if you're running a heavy attack build it isn't a pvp build and has infinite mag anyways so who cares, if you're playing even just force pulse as long as you're not literally afk you're triggering the mastery almost every second.

None of those are damage sets they merely enhance your own damage.

SneaK · May 15

Most bothersome thing about all these IMO, the classes at the front of the refreshes have the best masteries. Meaning Templar/NB/Necro will suffer for an extended period of time dealing with refreshed DKs/Wardens/Sorcs on top of their S/A tier masteries.

acanca · May 15

NxJoeyD wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

True. The main point of applying it to enemies is to maintain uptime. If one dies or is cleansed then you continue to receive the recovery. A player slotting MS on a burst skill and running Vitality is going to get less than the CoE passive gives Sorcs but having the debuff on multiple targets helps ensure consistency.

If the player hits 4 people (which I know is not going to always happen in PvP) they're going to cop 672 Mag/sec which isn't a ton less than CoE returns to the average Sorc.

Do you maybe see the issue with your defense of Conservation of Energy now?

No, I had wrong math but the cornerstone of my defense of CoE is that it's a strong sustain in the context of a PvP meta that's delivering upwards of 10k+ DPS, enabling Sorcs to be more dynamic with build crafting and damage output.

Unlless some one dies in like 2 seconds no build atm is even close to doing 10k dps in a fight, nor are you doing 7k dps in a fight, i guarantee you. Do you understand why people were freaked about ww doing 7-8k dps before it got adjusted slightly down when pts just began? Because that was literally unheard of before in game. Meta builds do around 5-6k dps max currently during duels and there was literally no build in the game before pure classing that could also have enough hps for 7k damage, pure class sorc, new max hp dk brawlers and maybe ww is imo the only classes that can even match such a high hps now and im not even sure about ww after they got their spammables heal adjusted (though i think it got buffed a bit last patch, havent checked ww in a bit)

I dunno if its because you play on xbox (?) but whenever you try to talk numbers you seem especially disconnected from reality.

Savagejack · May 15

Reading through these debates and use of math has been very insightful. So I want to thank you cuties for all this production effort. Keep it coming.

Major_Mangle · May 15

Savagejack wrote: »

Reading through these debates and use of math has been very insightful. So I want to thank you cuties for all this production effort. Keep it coming.

As insightful as the math is, I find it more entertaining with the mental gymnastics from those trying to depict sorc as a weak class (mag/stam) and that their new class masteries are "underwhelming" (aside from hoangdaz/static and some others who does understand how strong it actually can be).

acanca · May 15

Savagejack wrote: »

Reading through these debates and use of math has been very insightful. So I want to thank you cuties for all this production effort. Keep it coming.

Joey is honestly just trying to talk about what we already discussed about CoE before but somehow still getting everything wrong mathematically. CoE on average is stronger than both Wretched Vitality and 30 stack Roksa together and only by being bad with numbers can you even suggest otherwise, hell we even discussed this before.

Also no one is getting 240 on their off resource, that would need them to have 12k on their lower resource, with sugar skulls and tri stat enchants you are more or less guaranteed to have 20k+ on your lowest resource meaning at least 400 back.

At this point i am convinced the person never ever played on Pts and tries to make up numbers to try and talk about balance. Which is fine i guess, every one should get a voice.