U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

coop500 · May 4

Coming back over here as requested: You guys have to disable the Signet mythic on WW or the nerf requests will never stop. it's the only way we can TRULY see where Werewolf lies, because it's unique and toxic interaction with this ring will continue to make it look BROKEN as hell when it's this ring leaving it to have this insane interaction due to how the ultimate and status effects work, basically giving it a 100% uptime. Please give it the Warden Bear treatment in Week 5 (or add a hotfix ASAP), do not let this go to Live.

(This is coming from someone who WANTS to play werewolf more than anything. I just don't want it getting destroyed because of one toxic interaction with a mythic ring that is breaking EVERYTHING in both PvP and PvE.)

Wuuffyy · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

Coming back over here as requested: You guys have to disable the Signet mythic on WW or the nerf requests will never stop. it's the only way we can TRULY see where Werewolf lies, because it's unique and toxic interaction with this ring will continue to make it look BROKEN as hell when it's this ring leaving it to have this insane interaction due to how the ultimate and status effects work. Please give it the Warden Bear treatment in Week 5, do not let this go to Live.

(This is coming from someone who WANTS to play werewolf more than anything. I just don't want it getting destroyed because of one toxic interaction with a mythic ring that is breaking EVERYTHING in both PvP and PvE.)

Please disable Signet and swap class mastery access for ‘small, generic mastery buffs at-least for now’ (can specialize them later) for werewolf. This avoids locking us out of another system, can be used to promote ‘fun’ diversity, and should be easier to implement.

This can prevent placing werewolf toxically competing against other specs depending on comparison (with metrics being hard-carried by these points).

I STRONGLY recommend moving some/most of that extra rip and tear healing BACK into into the Hircine’s ‘healing howl’ as the burst heal is currently lacking and also still has a strong associated cost meaning the trade-off is more appropriate for increase healing interaction.

Erickson9610 · May 4

I'm frankly concerned that we have 5 weeks in this PTS as opposed to 4 weeks like last time. Werewolf has continually received nerfs each week, across PvE and PvP, so what makes this fifth week any different? It's not a great outlook.

Fenrir_Legacy · May 4

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'm frankly concerned that we have 5 weeks in this PTS as opposed to 4 weeks like last time. Werewolf has continually received nerfs each week, across PvE and PvP, so what makes this fifth week any different? It's not a great outlook.

The entire thing has been a nerf outside of looks. You took a minimum 30 percent loss on ability damage and heals from the start, and thats without halving damage for pvp. Then we have people who abuse bugs and mythic items. claiming werewolf is over powered but that isnt the case at all. These are people who dont even main werewolf.

coop500 · May 4

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'm frankly concerned that we have 5 weeks in this PTS as opposed to 4 weeks like last time. Werewolf has continually received nerfs each week, across PvE and PvP, so what makes this fifth week any different? It's not a great outlook.

The entire thing has been a nerf outside of looks. You took a minimum 30 percent loss on ability damage and heals from the start, and thats without halving damage for pvp. Then we have people who abuse bugs and mythic items. claiming werewolf is over powered but that isnt the case at all. These are people who dont even main werewolf.

Don't main, and actively hate because 'stupid one bar furry'

dark_hunterxmg · May 4

.

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'm frankly concerned that we have 5 weeks in this PTS as opposed to 4 weeks like last time. Werewolf has continually received nerfs each week, across PvE and PvP, so what makes this fifth week any different? It's not a great outlook.

The entire thing has been a nerf outside of looks. You took a minimum 30 percent loss on ability damage and heals from the start, and thats without halving damage for pvp. Then we have people who abuse bugs and mythic items. claiming werewolf is over powered but that isnt the case at all. These are people who dont even main werewolf.

It's not that they don't main werewolf, but rather they don't play it at all.

coop500 · May 4

Honestly devs it should be a wake up call when the playerbase of a playstyle is actively begging to be excluded from something (mythic Singet Paths ring and even Class Masteries) because we don't want to be destroyed over the course of patches and then forgotten about when all the reworked classes are doing 180K to 200K DPS and we're stuck in 120K jail.

That ring and class masteries are temporary things, anybody with a brain knows this. Once they're stripped away/adjusted as reworks come and flavor of the month changes, WW will get left behind while still bearing all the nerfs it received to it's base kit due to these outside interactions.

Fenrir_Legacy · May 4

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

.

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'm frankly concerned that we have 5 weeks in this PTS as opposed to 4 weeks like last time. Werewolf has continually received nerfs each week, across PvE and PvP, so what makes this fifth week any different? It's not a great outlook.

The entire thing has been a nerf outside of looks. You took a minimum 30 percent loss on ability damage and heals from the start, and thats without halving damage for pvp. Then we have people who abuse bugs and mythic items. claiming werewolf is over powered but that isnt the case at all. These are people who dont even main werewolf.

It's not that they don't main werewolf, but rather they don't play it at all.

Well they've certainly picked it up to abuse things and painted my main and only play style as something it isnt. This entire forum post has been infuriating from the start. Not to mention all the streamers out there that will make things even worse.

Fenrir_Legacy · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

Honestly devs it should be a wake up call when the playerbase of a playstyle is actively begging to be excluded from something (mythic Singet Paths ring and even Class Masteries) because we don't want to be destroyed over the course of patches and then forgotten about when all the reworked classes are doing 180K to 200K DPS and we're stuck in 120K jail.

That ring and class masteries are temporary things, anybody with a brain knows this. Once they're stripped away/adjusted as reworks come and flavor of the month changes, WW will get left behind while still bearing all the nerfs it received to it's base kit due to these outside interactions.

Dont worry, sorc mastery already got nerfed lol.

coop500 · May 4

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Honestly devs it should be a wake up call when the playerbase of a playstyle is actively begging to be excluded from something (mythic Singet Paths ring and even Class Masteries) because we don't want to be destroyed over the course of patches and then forgotten about when all the reworked classes are doing 180K to 200K DPS and we're stuck in 120K jail.

That ring and class masteries are temporary things, anybody with a brain knows this. Once they're stripped away/adjusted as reworks come and flavor of the month changes, WW will get left behind while still bearing all the nerfs it received to it's base kit due to these outside interactions.

Dont worry, sorc mastery already got nerfed lol.

It then got re-buffed.

Arunei · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

Honestly devs it should be a wake up call when the playerbase of a playstyle is actively begging to be excluded from something (mythic Singet Paths ring and even Class Masteries) because we don't want to be destroyed over the course of patches and then forgotten about when all the reworked classes are doing 180K to 200K DPS and we're stuck in 120K jail.

That ring and class masteries are temporary things, anybody with a brain knows this. Once they're stripped away/adjusted as reworks come and flavor of the month changes, WW will get left behind while still bearing all the nerfs it received to it's base kit due to these outside interactions.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Pretty much this. PLEASE, for the love of everything, can the devs just try disabling Class Masteries for WW and adding it to the things that won't work with Signet? PLEASE? Just to at least TEST how it is without these specific broken interactions, instead of the constant "nope nerf nerf nerf WW itself because of a couple specific things" that's been going on?

Especially because if Signet winds up getting nerfed at any point, then WW will have been nerfed over something that clearly needed to be tuned down some. PLEASE don't make WW end up being worse, again, than pretty much any other 1bar build. Especially because this will be WW's only rework more than likely and if it winds up just getting nerfed over and over, it's going to wind up worse than all the other Classes after THEIR reworks, and then what will the point of having reworked WW even be? It'll just end up bottom of the barrel like it has been for years.

Fenrir_Legacy · May 4

coop500 wrote: »

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Honestly devs it should be a wake up call when the playerbase of a playstyle is actively begging to be excluded from something (mythic Singet Paths ring and even Class Masteries) because we don't want to be destroyed over the course of patches and then forgotten about when all the reworked classes are doing 180K to 200K DPS and we're stuck in 120K jail.

That ring and class masteries are temporary things, anybody with a brain knows this. Once they're stripped away/adjusted as reworks come and flavor of the month changes, WW will get left behind while still bearing all the nerfs it received to it's base kit due to these outside interactions.

Dont worry, sorc mastery already got nerfed lol.

It then got re-buffed.

Lol you must be the coop skoll mentioned

coop500 · May 5

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Fenrir_Legacy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Honestly devs it should be a wake up call when the playerbase of a playstyle is actively begging to be excluded from something (mythic Singet Paths ring and even Class Masteries) because we don't want to be destroyed over the course of patches and then forgotten about when all the reworked classes are doing 180K to 200K DPS and we're stuck in 120K jail.

That ring and class masteries are temporary things, anybody with a brain knows this. Once they're stripped away/adjusted as reworks come and flavor of the month changes, WW will get left behind while still bearing all the nerfs it received to it's base kit due to these outside interactions.

Dont worry, sorc mastery already got nerfed lol.

It then got re-buffed.

Lol you must be the coop skoll mentioned

I am, that's terrifying that I'm being spoken of haha.

Pinktraining · May 5

WW players should stop complaining and try playing Pure NB, the worst class in the entire game, and then they will know just how powerful WW really is.

A class that only uses one bar can deal such high damage, and it's not even limited by the light attack cap, yet some people are still advocating for a buff to WW?
WW is already quite balanced; it would be perfect if we just slightly nerfed the unexpected damage buffs from shattered paths.

coop500 · May 5

I'm not asking for buffs, I'm asking to stop getting nerfed over a ring I wish never existed because it's butchering my favorite playstyle that has been worthless for 11 years.

Wuuffyy · May 5

Pinktraining wrote: »

WW players should stop complaining and try playing Pure NB, the worst class in the entire game, and then they will know just how powerful WW really is.

A class that only uses one bar can deal such high damage, and it's not even limited by the light attack cap, yet some people are still advocating for a buff to WW?
WW is already quite balanced; it would be perfect if we just slightly nerfed the unexpected damage buffs from shattered paths.

I’m sorry, what- you’ve lost me

We’re seemingly all just trying to ~settle~ for what’s left at this point.

Another full round of nerfs is almost a given next week it seems so “we” are playing devil’s advocate and trying to have Signet disabled for WW (ridiculous interaction) and ‘best case scenario’ in my PoV is we get our own version of ‘werewolf mastery’ with low, generic values 5, pick 2 instead to lessen the nerfs we’ll get after live launch the next PTS.

Werewolf has been notably one of, if not the worst specs on live now for almost a decade of run time (we had briefs ups in between)

We’re professionals at settling and we know the Nbs pain- ST class isn’t even good at ST lol

coop500 · May 5

Also yeah getting unique WW masteries is a pipe dream. Best we can ask for is, disable Class Masteries and Signet mythic on WW so we can have what's left of our kit so we're not forced to play Flavor Of The Patch.

Wuuffyy · May 5

coop500 wrote: »

Also yeah getting unique WW masteries is a pipe dream. Best we can ask for is, disable Class Masteries and Signet mythic on WW so we can have what's left of our kit so we're not forced to play Flavor Of The Patch.

I really don’t want to dreadfully farm Signet knowing what it means and how long it’ll be useful for, the entire time I’m farming it. Straight, unfiltered mental anguish (as far as a game goes ig)

coop500 · May 5

Wuuffyy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Also yeah getting unique WW masteries is a pipe dream. Best we can ask for is, disable Class Masteries and Signet mythic on WW so we can have what's left of our kit so we're not forced to play Flavor Of The Patch.

I really don’t want to dreadfully farm Signet knowing what it means and how long it’ll be useful for, the entire time I’m farming it. Straight, unfiltered mental anguish (as far as a game goes ig)

Oh I'm refusing to use it (outside of testing) out of principle. I'm not using the very thing that's going to get werewolf destroyed for the rest of the game's lifespan.

Dracane · May 5

Wuuffyy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Also yeah getting unique WW masteries is a pipe dream. Best we can ask for is, disable Class Masteries and Signet mythic on WW so we can have what's left of our kit so we're not forced to play Flavor Of The Patch.

I really don’t want to dreadfully farm Signet knowing what it means and how long it’ll be useful for, the entire time I’m farming it. Straight, unfiltered mental anguish (as far as a game goes ig)

It is very fast to get. Are you on PC EU? You can join our group and probably have it within an hour of farming bosses.

Arunei · May 5

Pinktraining wrote: »

WW players should stop complaining and try playing Pure NB, the worst class in the entire game, and then they will know just how powerful WW really is.

A class that only uses one bar can deal such high damage, and it's not even limited by the light attack cap, yet some people are still advocating for a buff to WW?
WW is already quite balanced; it would be perfect if we just slightly nerfed the unexpected damage buffs from shattered paths.

Please show us who's asking for buffs. None of us are, we're asking for WW not to get heavy-handed nerfs over a handful of specific interactions. How is asking for Mastery Passives to be disabled/decreased in strength for transformed WW asking for a buff? How is asking for Signet to be disabled for transformed WW asking for a buff?

We don't want to be made stronger, we're worried about WW getting nerfed right back into pointlessness before the rework even makes it to Live. People are coming out of the woodwork to decry WW's strength without seeming to consider that YES, it WILL be considerably more powerful than Live! Just like, surprise, DK was after ITS rework! That is the ENTIRE POINT of these reworks!

Sure, tweak numbers here and there, fix broken interactions, don't let the damage get TOO out of hand. But like you said, WW is fine where it is, the average person isn't going to do top tier damage because they're NOT going to be running Sets that work with WW's Skills or doing proper rotation to generate Ukt/Fury correctly/power their Claw Fury correctly. It's a 1bar builds but that doesn't mean average players will get the most out of it. If WW keeps getting nerfed, though, it gets to a point of why bother trying to make it stronger?

Look at everything else they've been nerfing this PTS and tell us with a straight face we don't have valid concerns of ZOS doing too big of a nerf that winds up going Live.

Erickson9610 · May 6

Players without the Ultimate number showing will have no idea how much time they have left in Werewolf form. The old timer bar was still visible even without the Ultimate number showing, but now it's just there to tell you how soon it'll be until you can use Rampage, which is slightly less helpful.

Savagejack · May 7

It'd be cool if Zos made Werewolf and Vampire into official classes so that they're no longer treated as a pseudo-class afterthought. Werewolf could be called an Animagus, and shapeshift into the animal form of their choice. [snip]
[edited for inappropriate content]

Vulkunne · May 13

I reviewed WW as it stands today and then went out and did some testing on the PTS.

In my opinion, if these changes go thru, I think the WW will be obsolete in PvP and unreliable. To be fair, not trying to be mean, but it looks like you have different hands trying to move things in different directions. It really doesn't feel like one unifying theme, more of an um 'experimental' approach. Which is not terrible for the PTS actually, but it really doesn't feel the same. Saying the damage changes between PvE and PvP to me, sounds like we're apologizing for something. And that's a no-no. The black wolf for example, should be the damage dealer and unapologetically so, it's a black wolf. Show of hands who's ever seen a wolf get really mad and they have that crazy look in their eyes? Now you just imagine a WW.

I'm sorry but this approach is not good. I don't care about no signet ring or mythic, of course that's important but we shouldn't have to lean in that direction to get a quality product. Bleeds against players capped at 1second? Why? Seriously, I'd really in a very respectful manner, love to know why? ZOS, do you all realize how much damage Sorcs and now DKs, and subclass meta monsters, and Emps and Ball Groups and all of them are dishing out? Ok so why punish the WW with this damage nerfs? Do you see what I mean? I'm not trying to rain on anyone's creativity but I'm not liking what I'm seeing and if you all push this thru the WW can be considered obsolete in PvP.

The way the damage is now, it's doable, it's something. But there's no reason to allow for so much damage in PvP and then scrub the WW so hard. A WW should be a raging damage dealer not an iddy bitty committee. I mean, so if I take the black wolf into PvP, every time I take a swipe at someone, it's like I'm apologizing lol. Why doesn't your doctrine for damage factor in Sorc/DK/Meta Sub Class/Emps/Ball Groups, on and on and so forth. How come none of that is factored in but WW gets a 1 second bleed? I mean, seriously could it be considered a bleed over 1 second? How would that even work, is that like when I get a flu shot or something just a quick prick? I didn't realize WWs were porcupines.

dark_hunterxmg · May 15

Vulkunne wrote: »

I reviewed WW as it stands today and then went out and did some testing on the PTS.

In my opinion, if these changes go thru, I think the WW will be obsolete in PvP and unreliable. To be fair, not trying to be mean, but it looks like you have different hands trying to move things in different directions. It really doesn't feel like one unifying theme, more of an um 'experimental' approach. Which is not terrible for the PTS actually, but it really doesn't feel the same. Saying the damage changes between PvE and PvP to me, sounds like we're apologizing for something. And that's a no-no. The black wolf for example, should be the damage dealer and unapologetically so, it's a black wolf. Show of hands who's ever seen a wolf get really mad and they have that crazy look in their eyes? Now you just imagine a WW.

I'm sorry but this approach is not good. I don't care about no signet ring or mythic, of course that's important but we shouldn't have to lean in that direction to get a quality product. Bleeds against players capped at 1second? Why? Seriously, I'd really in a very respectful manner, love to know why? ZOS, do you all realize how much damage Sorcs and now DKs, and subclass meta monsters, and Emps and Ball Groups and all of them are dishing out? Ok so why punish the WW with this damage nerfs? Do you see what I mean? I'm not trying to rain on anyone's creativity but I'm not liking what I'm seeing and if you all push this thru the WW can be considered obsolete in PvP.

The way the damage is now, it's doable, it's something. But there's no reason to allow for so much damage in PvP and then scrub the WW so hard. A WW should be a raging damage dealer not an iddy bitty committee. I mean, so if I take the black wolf into PvP, every time I take a swipe at someone, it's like I'm apologizing lol. Why doesn't your doctrine for damage factor in Sorc/DK/Meta Sub Class/Emps/Ball Groups, on and on and so forth. How come none of that is factored in but WW gets a 1 second bleed? I mean, seriously could it be considered a bleed over 1 second? How would that even work, is that like when I get a flu shot or something just a quick prick? I didn't realize WWs were porcupines.

You're not wrong. To me it feels like an unfinished product. The choice to reduce damage passives and lower the already low dot timers for pvp only is a poor remedy. Werewolf "dots" are all over the place with 1sec, 6sec,and 12sec timers. The 12second dot doesn't even have damage for the impact. Standard dot timers were raised from 10s to 20s several patches ago, yet here we are reducing them instead. Blood Claws are very difficult to land on a moving player even though it is an AoE skill, it may take the next 6 seconds to reapply the skill. Claws work considerably better on live. On pts the success rate is around 30-40% for me and the other players I have tested with. "Why aren't my claws landing" and "why can't I hit you"(at all) are common things to hear in my group.