BardokRedSnow wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Also, just to point out that not everyone sees every piece of media put out about new updates.

This is why I said even if you missed that, literally every npc you have to interact with prior to going into the districts also tell you its group content. You hear this 4 times or more before you ever step foot in a district.

code65536 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

What the experience level of players was supposed to be. It was all kept very vague.

How would you have defined it then, to be less vague? Did you want them to list a CP number? That doesn't mean anything and doesn't really matter. Did you want them to list gear or build? There are so many different options--I solo a few trash packs every day for the daily Blood on the Sands gold box on my alt accounts with pureclass magblade wearing False God and Sorrow (hardly what you'd call meta) because I never bothered to update my overland setup since 2019 (with Pale Order being the only "new"-ish gear that I use).

I mean, what else are you supposed to call it except "experienced"? I've played the game long enough to see the heavy attacks that I need to dodge (without addons, believe it or not). I've played the game long enough to know the importance of having plenty of self-healing. That's "experienced".

It's vague because how can it be anything else? There are so many factors that go into whether or not you can succeed solo that all you can really say is, "it's not recommended, but if you're good enough, it's not impossible" which is 100% correct.

And if people are not sure about whether or not their level of experience meets the bar, there's only one way to find out: give it a try and see what happens. If it works, congrats, and if it doesn't, then follow the advice and find people to help you.

Arunei wrote: »

Because the "if someone isn't sure what their experience level is" doesn't really apply if they KNOW they aren't someone that does Dungeons or Trials or messes with things like WBs or Incursions. And even if someone somehow doesn't know what content they CAN actually do, that "try the content and see" thing applies just the same. It applies to anyone who wants to try ANY content that's outside what they normally do. But at least saying "this is roughly the level of experience you should expect to have" prevents people from having expectations that they can do X or Y when they aren't at all ready for that content.

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Because the "if someone isn't sure what their experience level is" doesn't really apply if they KNOW they aren't someone that does Dungeons or Trials or messes with things like WBs or Incursions. And even if someone somehow doesn't know what content they CAN actually do, that "try the content and see" thing applies just the same. It applies to anyone who wants to try ANY content that's outside what they normally do. But at least saying "this is roughly the level of experience you should expect to have" prevents people from having expectations that they can do X or Y when they aren't at all ready for that content.

This isn't real-life where dying has consequences. You lose a soul gem.

The general idea is clearly conveyed: it's for groups, and it'll be hard if you're solo. Why does it need to be more specific? Why does this information need to be spoon-fed to players instead of letting them discover it on their own? That's the whole point of a game.

Playing this game for the very first time during beta, I wander across Spindleclutch, thought it was just like any other cave, went inside, got wrecked by the first trash pack within seconds. My reaction was, "oh, so that's what 'group dungeon' means" not "wtf, this place is a hazard, why aren't there more warning signs". Because, again, this isn't real-life. Dying is okay and is a part of discovering the game. And my memory of brutally dying to those first spiders of Spindleclutch made it feel that much more rewarding when, later on, I became "experienced" enough to beat the dungeon on my own.


Edit: Another way to think about it: If someone has never found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then telling them that this is like that won't mean anything to them. And if someone has found out the hard way that they can't solo a normal trial, then what's so bad about letting them discover the same here? Why is it so important that players be protected from the horrors of trying things out?

Because not giving players that information leads to this exact situation, where players DO try it out expecting it to be easier and then come to the forums and complain and then we get users complaining about the users complaining and then users complaining about the users complaining about users complaining.

Not to mention, not everyone likes the whole 'die a lot before you can defeat it' model. That is why dark souls like games have a lot of people who want easier modes and not everyone plays them.

I am one of those who don't like the idea of having to die 100 times just to defeat one single enemy. I don't mind dying. I die just by walking off mountains. I do mind having to throw myself over and over and over at a single enemy to get past it.

The 'whole point of a game' is to have fun. However the players want to have fun and the game allows. Some players like discovering things on their own, others like solving puzzles on their own, some hate puzzles and like combat, some love sticking their nose in every single corner to find that special loot, others like reading every bit of text they can find in a game. Some people love the dopamine of getting rewards. or collecting houses or dyes or item sets.

Just as some people love playing with a select group of friends, while others don't mind going with a random group they just found wandering around. Just as others prefer to play solo.

BUT, the less information players have before they do something, the more likely there are going to be complaints. The more up for interpretation that information is, the more likely individual players are going to interpret it differently from not only how the developers intended it it to be interpreted, but also how I interpreted it, how you interpreted it, how every single player on this forum interprets it. Which, leads to more complaints when players figure out that they interpreted it wrong.

Because the point is, yeah, if someone never tried a trial and never realized that it was 'hard content' then they wouldn't realize that the NM was also hard content. But, most people would understand that saying that the Night Market was the equivalent of a 12 player group required content means that it isn't going to be doable for the vast majority of the player base alone, and that they might want to look into seeing if a group is available.

Also, once again pointing out that one of the main differences between this and other group content is that they introduced FOMO to this mechanic by saying no one knows when it will come around. So people are thinking 'if I don't do this NOW, then I won't get the rewards I want from it' and even realizing that it will come back at least two more times doesn't help, because if they want the rewards for the other factions they have to join those factions. But, once that is over, no one knows when the night market will come back, if it does, nor what will happen to the current rewards for it. BECAUSE it is a new model that they are introducing, and they chose to do it as an event zone that disappears after so long, it makes people want to get the rewards more *now* than if it had been just another zone and set of quests that will be sticking around for as long as the game is up. If it had been another zone, then people could throw themselves at it, realize it wasn't right for them at this point, and come back when they have a group or they get stronger. Just like they can trials and arenas and world bosses and so on. But there is no guarantee that by the time the player gets stronger or finds a good group to run with, that the content will still be available.

Psyphiman wrote: »

Personally, if I made false assumptions about the Night Market after ZOS did in fact communicate that it was group content, I would be saying “my bad” not “ZOS’s bad.”

Arunei wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

As someone said, if they had just gone with a 'this is group content. Full stop' then people would likely have had a vastly different reaction to it.

Sure but that may have mislead people into not participating because they didn't have a premade group. Night Market has massively more PUG participation than trials do. And I think it's because it's designed so people can enter by themselves and get a sense if they need or want to join in with others. Most will quickly realize that's something they want but others have reported getting solo builds up and running and going at it alone anyway successfully. The choice to be able to do so alongside the fairly decent rewards has gotten a lot of people to give it a shot that otherwise probably wouldn't have.

Night Market isn't like previous content. It's a whole different thing. So, people came in with preconceived notions about what it meant they said something along the lines of you can enter solo but it would be wise to get a group or it will be tough. But there's not really a way they could avoid those notions when introducing a new standard to an over 10 year old game.

This genuinely makes no sense to me. How is a vague "grouping is encouraged but not required" worse than just saying "this is a group Zone"? Because everyone is saying "you've been told to group the whole time by the marketing" yet...actually telling people outright the zone is intended for groups and just saying that in the marketing is any different than what people are just being told to do anyway? If everyone was going to just wind up going "oh you were told from the start it's a group Zone so just group" then why not just say it's a group Zone to begin with instead of "a Zone that encourages grouping"?

Like...it wouldn't have misled people into thinking they need a pre-made group and more than what the current marketing does. I would think most people hardly differentiate between PUGs and premades when they see something requires grouping because most don't want to do either.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I remember when the Oblivion portal incursions were advertized as something like soloable by experienced players lol