ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We have no intention of pushing solo players out of the game. However, we started this year off by noting that we were going to try some new things. Night Market is one of them.

I commend you guys for trying something new. I really do. I was looking forward to this, but it just didn't land well this iteration. At least for some of us.

I just hope whatever you guys do next, you sort out the rewards. And honestly, this is something you guys have struggled with for a long time. Whether it's poor RNG or just scarce rewards, it's been a struggle. If this were a permanent feature, which sounds like some day it will be, why would I do it a year-out?

Again, you guys have years of crown crates, timed deals, old event skins, unreleased motifs that you can pull from. A few furnishings and heads/shoulders isn't much in the grand scheme of things. And the last thing we should be seeing as a reward is a base game gear set, I'm sorry. That really makes things feel rushed.

If you guys need more time, take it.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

As several have noted in this thread as well, we have a roadmap that is publicly available. The point of the roadmap is to showcase the content we have coming throughout the year. As is noted on the roadmap and current PTS testing, we have plenty of solo friendly content as well. Thieves Guild and Sheogorath Questlines, Favors system, Rumors system, Two Solo Dungeons, Sage's Vault, and the list can keep going. And that is all on top of existing content. We also understand that not every piece of content will be for everyone, and that is okay.

I'd be careful with "that is okay" statements. It's not, and that's why you're having to defend ZOS again. FWIW, I don't disagree with you, but just looking at the big picture here. Right or wrong, people are upset.

I think some of the frustration is: there's really not much meaty content coming this year for solo players or small groups. Quest lines are great, but they're not exactly repeatable to the degree that something like Night Market is. And they're not a substitute for new zones, like Night Market is.

Yes, they'll keep you busy, but you're assuming that stories are the main experience that solo players want. Some may, but some may not. I sure don't. For me, I'm looking for rewarding content where I can get 2-4 friends together, run around, and kill enemies.

The two solo dungeons are great, but are ultimately older content being refactored. It's not net new content. So, players who want to solo or soft group something, don't have much to look forward to. We don't have much information on Sage's Vault yet, so maybe it'll scratch that itch. Who knows.

Again, it needs to be rewarding.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Additionally, we know just like there are players who come for solo content, there are also players who come for group content and challenging group content. So we want to make sure we are providing new things for them as well.

That's fine and all, but are you making a distinction between hard and soft grouping when designing these? Are you considering smaller group sizes when designing these?

It doesn't seem like that's the case. It seems like the assumption is purely group or purely solo. That's not how people play the game. There's all sorts of variations:

• Truly solo players
• 2-4 friends who can hard group
• Solo players who will soft group once in the zone
• 6-11 players in organized groups
• 12 player organized trial groups
• 6-12 players in PUGs
• Groups with loose organization, someone dies has to run back, can't catch up.

Now, I went into this thinking I could just find other players there, roam around with them, and make some progress. That absolutely wasn't the case. The system assumes a larger group size through its difficulty, but then doesn't enforce that in any way.

It's completely fine if there's group content, but you absolutely have to be more clear on group size. My preference would be that this would be something 2-3 people could reasonably do. At least trash mobs. Let's say that most of the zone could be tackled in small groups, there's WBs, a trial and dungeon that could require more coordinated groups.

shadoza wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

• Does ZoS have plans to turn ESO into something like a Dark Souls-style game?
• Do they have any plan to push solo players out of the game?

To answer the core questions asked:

Q: Does ZoS have plans to turn ESO into something like a Dark Souls-style game?
A: No.

Q:Do they have any plan to push solo players out of the game?
A: No.

Just following up here generally. We hear the feedback from solo players about the Night Market content. We want to follow up with just few things.

We have no intention of pushing solo players out of the game. However, we started this year off by noting that we were going to try some new things. Night Market is one of them. While we always provide group players with trials, we also wanted to try something different. This was not to alienate solo players, but rather to add a new way to play. That being said, we do hear the feedback and have passed that on our teams for future consideration, especially for when Night Market comes back later in the year. Remember, part of the ethos of this event is to add to it over time.

As several have noted in this thread as well, we have a roadmap that is publicly available. The point of the roadmap is to showcase the content we have coming throughout the year. As is noted on the roadmap and current PTS testing, we have plenty of solo friendly content as well. Thieves Guild and Sheogorath Questlines, Favors system, Rumors system, Two Solo Dungeons, Sage's Vault, and the list can keep going. And that is all on top of existing content. We also understand that not every piece of content will be for everyone, and that is okay.

We know this may come off as a contentious statement, but it does bear repeating. While we are an Elder Scrolls game, we are also an MMO. Storytelling and the heart of solo adventure will always be an important part of ESO. However, some of our event/ event zone content will be focused on encouraging group play. It is the nature of the genre. Additionally, we know just like there are players who come for solo content, there are also players who come for group content and challenging group content. So we want to make sure we are providing new things for them as well.

We'll close with this. Last year, we saw many threads throughout the year asking us to address content and find new ways of renewing the gameplay experience, both in variety and challenge. We are in the first passes of this now with items like Night Market going live. But we will have content throughout the year to address both solo and group play within the community. The feedback is helpful to steer us on the right track. So thanks to everyone, both solo players and group players, who have given their constructive feedback regarding the Night Market. The team is taking a look at what can be done during this current running and what can be adjusted for the next run of the Night Market.

I just want to remind everyone, anyone, that MMO does NOT mean grouping. It never meant grouping. It meant shared map. It meant socializing. Using the term Massive Multi-player Online to provide an excuse to push grouping and guilds is trying too hard to validate attempting to change the way we play.

Push what? This game has over a decade worth of solo content, and they are going add solo dungeons in the near future. If anything the removal of the 4 group dungeons this year is a shift more towards solo friendly content.

shadoza wrote: »

I just want to remind everyone, anyone, that MMO does NOT mean grouping. It never meant grouping. It meant shared map. It meant socializing. Using the term Massive Multi-player Online to provide an excuse to push grouping and guilds is trying too hard to validate attempting to change the way we play.

MMO has never meant you'd be forced to group at all times. But it has always meant that some content will be group only. Raids/Trials have always been large group only content in every MMO that I played. Many of them don't let you solo dungeons either.

MMO does mean that it will have group content. They also usually have solo content because it's a shared world and it helps us meet people to do the hardest group stuff with. The majority of MMOs have a mix of both as a genre principle and this one is no different.

noneatza wrote: »

@Athory Hey man sorry for the offtopic, i'm noticing you using this character " — " a lot across your forum posts, where are you getting it ? I can't find it on my keyboard

This explains so much lmao, good catch

I enjoy doing solo and group content. I mainly enjoy solo content and the story/lore, as well as looting boxes, reading from bookcases, talking to NPC's.

I like the loop that most zones have where you can progress through the zone solo, and there are opportunities to stop and do content, or join groups to do more difficult content like world bosses, incursions, trials or dungeons. I like the zone completion, and that some of the zone completion requires working with a group. That pattern is not present here.

I do sometimes research builds, and run specific content to get gear. mostly healing and some tanking though; I'm not interested in being a high performing dps. I'm more interested in keeping the group alive, with some dps when the healing is slow. I did that a bit for infinite archive. I'm not interested in doing that for a limited time zone, that will be gone in a couple of months. I might be okay if I could do most of it with my solo build, but there were some group areas where I had to adjust my build to finish it up.

I liked how events like the west weald event (and similar events) worked where the focus was on the world boss quests and the delves. Groups would cluster in these specific group areas, and for specific bosses, and it was easy to find/start groups in zone chat.

What attracted and kept me in the game was that I could spend the majority of my time working on solo tasks, and on the weekends or some evenings I could queue up for dungeons, or join groups for world bosses, trials or other things like dolmens.

I liked the regular cadence of a story chapter that had a zone with it's story, and I could play it in my own pace. Sometimes I take a break and I catch up doing a few expansions.

So far this year I have seen nothing that fits into this pattern. I paused my sub a few weeks ago, and figured if night market was enjoyable I'd renew it.

I get that it's intended to be a challenging area. That's just not what motivates me to play the game. Usually when I've done all the story/solo content in a zone, I'll go back and work on the group content. Sometimes I may solo world bosses.

I think for now, I'll hold off on renewing my plus subscription. I'll keep an eye out in the official discord to see if some changes happen to night market, or if anything else changes.

Koshka wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

Unless we go off-topic… right. Then the topic will stay until 2099.

That's one thing I don't understand about this kind of threads. If you have so much free time and you want the NM rewards, you could've just helped your fellow solo questers by making a nontoxic quiet group for likeminded people. This way everyone would be happier.
Or, if you don't want any of the rewards, you could just not participate. Letting go of fomo greatly improves your gaming experience.

You don't even need to do that. Just travel to a guild mate or join a group, be polite and help them with like one boss, and then leave that group. Then you'll be in an instance where there are other players and you'll be able to know exactly which district they're in. You win and the group wins and you get to play mostly by yourself, if that's your preference. Most of the group finder groups people aren't even talking a lot in. It's mostly other casual and solo players who want to participate in the night market and can't do it without a group. They do not play with any sort of communication or coordination beyond maybe explaining mechanics during a skirmish.

I know some of the people leaving feedback about it being too difficult for a casual player have not actually tried to play that way because if they did they'd see that it's not at all like a vet trial. Rather they're going in there by themselves with builds that don't include much in the way of self defense and having a bad time because they're ending up in empty instances that they don't have the build to do alone.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We know this may come off as a contentious statement, but it does bear repeating. While we are an Elder Scrolls game, we are also an MMO. Storytelling and the heart of solo adventure will always be an important part of ESO. However, some of our event/ event zone content will be focused on encouraging group play. It is the nature of the genre. Additionally, we know just like there are players who come for solo content, there are also players who come for group content and challenging group content. So we want to make sure we are providing new things for them as well.

And I think there is the problem. The definition of an MMO isn't the same as it was 20 years ago.. Not many are built around the idea of the "require a group" anymore. They are mostly starting to go grouping is optional. And there needs to be a way and to take the time to figure out how to design things to be both casual and hardcore friendly at the same time. Not just one or the other.

Mission wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We know this may come off as a contentious statement, but it does bear repeating. While we are an Elder Scrolls game, we are also an MMO. Storytelling and the heart of solo adventure will always be an important part of ESO. However, some of our event/ event zone content will be focused on encouraging group play. It is the nature of the genre. Additionally, we know just like there are players who come for solo content, there are also players who come for group content and challenging group content. So we want to make sure we are providing new things for them as well.

And I think there is the problem. The definition of an MMO isn't the same as it was 20 years ago.. Not many are built around the idea of the "require a group" anymore. They are mostly starting to go grouping is optional. And there needs to be a way and to take the time to figure out how to design things to be both casual and hardcore friendly at the same time. Not just one or the other.

The Night Market is very casual friendly though. It can be pugged quite easily. You also don't have to group if you're in an instance that's full; you can run around near other players.

And at the end of the day, it's a single piece of free content. Are all the people complaining about grouping in the Night Market doing the same for trials?

There have been some good points here from folks who have problems with the Night Market. Glad others are jumping in. The circular argument of much of this thread was getting old.

Edited to be more constructive.

Mission wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The Night Market is very casual friendly though. It can be pugged quite easily. You also don't have to group if you're in an instance that's full; you can run around near other players.

And at the end of the day, it's a single piece of free content. Are all the people complaining about grouping in the Night Market doing the same for trials?

Actually the trials are an issue. But the thing is they aren't a temporary piece of content (yes I know night market will return), but you are basing a whole season around it. And some people like mmo environments but don't necessarily want to group up with people

Yeah, as there are so many PvP players who don't do PvE content and who have missed most of the events we've had each year for 11 years because of that.

Asking ZOS to make an event that will please 100% of players is impossible.

Wait, your pearl clutching about the game dying because of the night market, and the whole rest of the year being group content (which we both know is untrue) and you've not tried the content? You should at least give it a go. Yeah the rewards are lame. I don't think anyone's argued otherwise. Yeah sure you'll get killed. But if a guild you're in is doing a nm group, you should at least give it 15 minutes. Someone here just posted that they've never done a trial before but did the entire nm, dungeon bosses and all and did the trial and enjoyed it. What have you got to lose?

SilverBride wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SANGUARI wrote: »

Why do you play an MMO (massively multiplayer online) if you want to be alone? These posts are starting to get ridiculous.

Being in a group for combat isn't the only way to interact with others in an MMO. I much prefer to do most things solo so I can do them my own way in my own time. But most of the time I am playing "alone" I am chatting with friends, or participating in zone chat, or stopping what I'm doing to help someone asking for World Boss help, or answering questions or requests for help in guild chat, etc.. So playing solo does not mean playing alone. And playing an MMO does not mean constant grouping.

The Night Market requires zero grouping. It's much like you described what you do already.

That is not what I am reading. If players could really solo this there wouldn't be countless posts about dying within seconds of just entering. Maybe there are some that can do it but they are the exception.

Mission wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We know this may come off as a contentious statement, but it does bear repeating. While we are an Elder Scrolls game, we are also an MMO. Storytelling and the heart of solo adventure will always be an important part of ESO. However, some of our event/ event zone content will be focused on encouraging group play. It is the nature of the genre. Additionally, we know just like there are players who come for solo content, there are also players who come for group content and challenging group content. So we want to make sure we are providing new things for them as well.

And I think there is the problem. The definition of an MMO isn't the same as it was 20 years ago.. Not many are built around the idea of the "require a group" anymore. They are mostly starting to go grouping is optional. And there needs to be a way and to take the time to figure out how to design things to be both casual and hardcore friendly at the same time. Not just one or the other.

Still there are people who heavily prefer their "old school" experience, no matter if times has changed or not. And yet new zone is the definition of what you're talking about there, to me, personally. It's definitely extremely far from "hardcore" people who prefer the "old ways" want. In ESO in particular the words "average" and "casual" are very stretched to the point of no real distinction between words people use as those are just personal feelings. Same goes for "hardcore", as it's easy to slap a sticker there to prove a point that you're getting shafted content wise.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

• Does ZoS have plans to turn ESO into something like a Dark Souls-style game?
• Do they have any plan to push solo players out of the game?

To answer the core questions asked:

Q: Does ZoS have plans to turn ESO into something like a Dark Souls-style game?
A: No.

Q:Do they have any plan to push solo players out of the game?
A: No.

Just following up here generally. We hear the feedback from solo players about the Night Market content. We want to follow up with just few things.

We have no intention of pushing solo players out of the game. However, we started this year off by noting that we were going to try some new things. Night Market is one of them. While we always provide group players with trials, we also wanted to try something different. This was not to alienate solo players, but rather to add a new way to play. That being said, we do hear the feedback and have passed that on our teams for future consideration, especially for when Night Market comes back later in the year. Remember, part of the ethos of this event is to add to it over time.

As several have noted in this thread as well, we have a roadmap that is publicly available. The point of the roadmap is to showcase the content we have coming throughout the year. As is noted on the roadmap and current PTS testing, we have plenty of solo friendly content as well. Thieves Guild and Sheogorath Questlines, Favors system, Rumors system, Two Solo Dungeons, Sage's Vault, and the list can keep going. And that is all on top of existing content. We also understand that not every piece of content will be for everyone, and that is okay.

We know this may come off as a contentious statement, but it does bear repeating. While we are an Elder Scrolls game, we are also an MMO. Storytelling and the heart of solo adventure will always be an important part of ESO. However, some of our event/ event zone content will be focused on encouraging group play. It is the nature of the genre. Additionally, we know just like there are players who come for solo content, there are also players who come for group content and challenging group content. So we want to make sure we are providing new things for them as well.

We'll close with this. Last year, we saw many threads throughout the year asking us to address content and find new ways of renewing the gameplay experience, both in variety and challenge. We are in the first passes of this now with items like Night Market going live. But we will have content throughout the year to address both solo and group play within the community. The feedback is helpful to steer us on the right track. So thanks to everyone, both solo players and group players, who have given their constructive feedback regarding the Night Market. The team is taking a look at what can be done during this current running and what can be adjusted for the next run of the Night Market.

Quite the mic drop. Respect to Kevin and the team to sticking by what Finn said during pts. This should be stickied on the forums.

Mission wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Yeah, as there are so many PvP players who don't do PvE content and who have missed most of the events we've had each year for 11 years because of that.

Asking ZOS to make an event that will please 100% of players is impossible.

Again, another case of bad design. Short term events should never cater to just one player type. If you are going to design one limited thing for one player type. There should be an equal content in that event time for other player types. They could have easily put the same reward in a pvp zone. In the end it isn't about the content. it's about the fomo rewards. If they just removed rewards entirely. Then no one would do any content

But NM doesn't just cater to one player type. I see social guilds, casual pugs and raid guilds enjoying it equally.
People who play with strict self-imposed restrictions are a minority and cannot expect everything to cater to their tastes. Most casual players might not be interested in progging and guild stuff, but they join groups when it benefits them: to farm dolmens, event coffers, dragons, random normals and now NM.

code65536 wrote: »

noneatza wrote: »

Hey man sorry for the offtopic, i'm noticing you using this character " — " a lot across your forum posts, where are you getting it ? I can't find it on my keyboard

Wait, there's a topic in this thread? I thought by this point it's just people munching on popcorn. But anyway, to answer your very good question, that character is called the emdash, with the "em" standing for the letter M. It's supposed to be a wide dash that, you guessed it, is the width of a (rather fat) letter M. There's also endash, and you can guess what that's supposed to be.

Grammatically, there are specific contexts where you are supposed to use emdash. Because emdash is usually not found on typewriter (or a modern-day keyboard), the usual convention when it's not available is to just use two hypens. Modern word processes such as Microsoft Word will then convert a double-hypen to an emdash. You can also find the emdash (or endash) in Windows Character Map.

May be worth noting that in Windows you can use the [Win] + [.] or [Win] + [;] shortcuts for quick access to the Character Map/Emoji/Emoticons/etc. The linux/mac equivalent escapes me atm.