I think all of the Solstice dungeon DLC's were a bit. Like the trial the keep boosting the difficulties due to the top end doing 200k dps. I've done them all on hard mode, but for newer players I could see even the normals being a bit tough. Especially if they ignore the mechs like the orbs in Exiled Redoubt. That is one that could be tough to solo unless you're able to manage the adds.

Naj-Caldeesh is only a major challenge if people try to skip mechanics or don’t have builds that can put up the numbers necessary. This is a DLC denigeon that came out in a game that is over ten years old. It’s not going to be a tiptoe through the tulips, nor should it be.

Yes, a lot of bad pug groups will get blended and quit. But you could say that about almost every DLC dungeon. People wanted the content to be more challenging. Well, here it is. You can either step up to the challenge or run Fungal Grotto forever.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the part that frustrated me was that they include a 2 person lever to start the dungeon at all unless you have something like streak that can get over the water gap

Devs: “Play your way!”

Us: “Great! I’m going to complete this content intended for a group by myself.”

Devs: “…wait, that’s illegal.”

It kind of feels like any of the newer dungeons that have a boss with a cone channel (ERE, Scriveners, Naj, etc) seem to be rough on normal even unless you have a traditional composition or a higher end carry.

Naj Caldeesh is OK on normal for the most part, with the exception of the second boss, which is definitely overtuned for that mode. I ran it solo a while back, and you ideally need a tank or a tanky dps build for it. I didn't spec heavily on health, but I did spec on having extra mitigation and healing, and I found in this way I could survive her flame cone with flail, the pragmatic morph of the arc beam, and the bow proc from merciless resolve, but it was still very touch-and-go. The problem was not so much this attack, but the fact that you have to move around a lot because the boss becomes immune from the pools the dying adds leave behind, so the fight drags out and there's more chances to make a fatal mistake and reset it, especially with the added pressure of the tether phases. If you have a 4-person group with a proper tank though and the DDs kill everything as they spawn, and they are mindful of the tethers, that fight becomes much more manageable. The last boss was also a pain on solo, mostly because even if you step a toe on the emanating circles when she does her charge, it can hurt a lot, but the periodicity of that mechanic and the large area really helped dealing with that. As with all dungeons, having a proper group composition, and knowing the mechanics goes a long way, it's just that people can often queue for randoms without suitable builds for their role, they might not be familiar with every instance, and not have the time/patience to learn them, so runs can easily break down in these cases.

I disagree it is overtuned but rather previous normals are very much undertuned. Historically the jump from normal to veteran has been shockingly large, this results in people getting clears on normal and thinking they can just jump into the veteran version without issue.

The undertuning on normals also makes the problem of fake tanks and healers worse because you simply don't need proper ones - and I don't mean fully geared, I mean with reasonable gear and appropriate skills like a taunt.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I disagree it is overtuned but rather previous normals are very much undertuned. Historically the jump from normal to veteran has been shockingly large, this results in people getting clears on normal and thinking they can just jump into the veteran version without issue.

The undertuning on normals also makes the problem of fake tanks and healers worse because you simply don't need proper ones - and I don't mean fully geared, I mean with reasonable gear and appropriate skills like a taunt.

Whether the problem is Naj being "over" or the rest of them being "under" tuned doesn't change the fact that Naj is more difficult relative to other DLC dungeons on normal.

Personally, I am firmly in the "overtuned" camp, because I've always though of normal as "story mode". Mechanics don't matter and aren't supposed to matter. No, normal doesn't teach you anything, but it's not supposed to. If you want to learn a dungeon's mechanics, do vet (or ideally vet HM), normal is not and has never been the place for that. Normal is for the people posting on the forums about how they hate group content and how dungeon DLCs exclude them.

Don't be a fake dps. Or if you are a fake dps that queues as a tank and you get 3 more fake dps, at least have actual tank build to swap to. Problem solved.

When I need to level up skill lines/skills, I run RNDs. Same with new characters up until they are on CP level and I have time to reconstruct/craft actual gear for them. But before that happens, I might still run a few RNDs just to level up the remaining skill lines. Great XP at the end and levels up those lines nicely. On normal difficulty your build doesn't matter so I have been running those with mixed gear, whatever I happen to pick up along the way. Usually as a tank.

Even when I hit level 50, I might still have some level 47 gear pieces and such, until I actually make a build. But it doesn't matter on normal difficulty, right? As long as I have a taunt and preferably minor and major breach.

Just yesterday I completed Scrivener's Hall with Pierce Armor, Silver Leash and green Vigor, the rest being random Necro skills for levelling up. Not a problem. The others were farming for a lead and I guess it went well enough because at the end they asked if we can go again. I was there just for the daily XP so no, but that shows that even in some later DLC dungeons I don't need to worry about too much, as long as I know the mechanics and know when to roll and when to block while wearing mismatched gear.

Well, no. Naj-Caldeesh requires an actual build. I had the misfortune of ending up there with a 31k character that was still missing levels from medium armour so I was mainly wearing medium. That was painful. Turned into something that felt like an HM prog. First and last bosses were not too bad but oh boy that second boss. On normal it's more difficult than all base game bosses on veteran and about half of them on HM.

The breath is more punishing than ERE last boss and drains your stamina so quickly. And can come so often that your potion is still on cooldown when the next one comes. N-C really is the odd one out. Everything else you can complete with any pug group using anything that has the bare minimum for your role. I've healed countless dungeons with just the first three skills from the resto staff. I mean, you can even tank veteran DLC dungeons naked - I've even tanked nSE naked, pre-subclassing, fists only. But not N-C.

N-C is the only DLC dungeon where you need an actual build even on normal.

Before I didn't really care where RND takes me when I am levelling up skill lines. I know I can pull my own weight even if I was naked. But now I have this one accidentally veteran dungeon posing as a normal dungeon that I need to worry about when queuing.

Naj Caldeesh is a really cool dungeon! They did a nice job when the built that one. I will say it can be a lengthy dungeon. It varies depending on the group, but I think that's probably what's happening in this case. You will see that with Lair of Marselok and Black Gem Foundry in the group finder, people not wanting to spend the time because they are long dungeons. They leave thinking they will be there for over an hour.

There are still quite a few vet players like myself who still stay true to the group finder and if you allow yourself to stick with it, you will see there are still people out there who will run it with you a little faster and easier than others.

I have no horse in this race but I wanted to share that it’s interesting… there are complaints about having fake tank speedrunners but with a dungeon that pushes having a tank, the dungeon is said to be too hard. I have quit a normal naj on 2nd boss because the tank was fake, leading to me dying to the cone. Now granted, one dungeon punishing fake tanks just means people will leave on entry. It’d take more dungeons punishing fake tanks and even then, people will still leave, just maybe at a lower rate.

I remember it was quite a doozy going from running it blind in tank role, learning mechanics as we go on veteran with an organized group that matched my mindset but coming out of it very satisfied, to later grinding its gear during an undaunted event but wanting the clear on my other toons for skill points and quest gear coffer and suddenly even on normal I see groups fall apart unless I go in on one of my actual tanks.

One of the runs the fake tank ragequit right after the first fail on the first boss. We barely scrapped together after by managing our DPS positioning to make the healer's job easier then got to the second boss and there was just nothing to do. Healer was pumping everything they could but our toons were built squishy with the expectation of a tank being present.

I just got to the conclusion that if I was gonna farm this dungeon for my stickerbook I was gonna do it on my tanks only. If it's the one role that makes the entire difference having fully prepared I was gonna bring it in. I wouldn't be against a bit of tuning to go finish my quests on other toons with random pugs.

twisttop138 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

There should 100% be challenging content for people that can't or don't want to do vet. It's the newest dlc dungeon and we're in the era where dps are doing crazy numbers.

Um. You realize that the power creep isn't free, right? ZOS didn't press a button to magically make everyone's attacks do X% more damage. You have to do things to claim that power. You need to subclass. You need to update your gear. You need to make sure you have a proper build. If you don't do any of that, if you are still running a pureclass mag NB with False God and Mother's Sorrow like it's 2019, then you will still be doing damage like it's 2019 and there's been absolutely zero power creep for you (actually, there's been a slight power nerf).

The people who are "doing crazy numbers" are keeping up with the meta. They're reading build guides, updating their gear, playing around with subclassing, and... wait, are you sure that these are people who "can't or don't want to do vet"? Because people who do that don't belong in normals in the first place.

You have no idea what kind of people normal content is actually supposed to target. They're people who play casually, who don't update their builds, and who put skills on because it sounds nice, not because they read a guide. Or maybe they're experienced players, but leveling a character with a RND, so that character doesn't yet have a proper gear and skills. Or maybe a new player who hasn't collected the gear and is still wearing a mish-mash of stuff that they found and who doesn't know that this specific dungeon is newer and harder than the others they've seen.

If people want a challenge, that's why vet and vet HM exists.

For the record, I'm the kind of person who only does DLC dungeons on vet HM. Normals (and even regular vet) are not intended for me, so why would I want to have normal difficulty jacked out of the comfort zone for people that normals are actually intended for?

twisttop138 wrote: »

You can make the argument that it's harder than other dlc dungeons, sure. Agreed. But there is no reason to nerf it.

I dunno, "out of line with expectations" sounds like a good reason to me.



(I do want to clarify, though, that I don't completely fault ZOS for the poor balance of normal Naj. The kinds of people who test new DLC dungeons on PTS are probably not the kind of people who the normal mode is intended for, so I feel like normal doesn't get much testing and feedback as a result. Personally, all the feedback that I gave during PTS was for vet HM and I never set foot in normal until well after the live release.)

To be fair to your point, maybe I don't know what kind of people it's for. Unfortunately I haven't experienced a problem in Naj, even on under geared toons that I was leveling up. Maybe that's where game knowledge comes into play, to make up for it. Knowledge of the mechanics. You also make a good point. The people testing dungeons and trials on the pts are very much not your every day player. It just gets tiring to always see I couldn't do this so nerf it. I also find my challenge in vet and hm, but not everyone does. I would also argue that someone who enjoys having a build or looks at a guide isn't a casual player and should be in vet or hard mode. Idk though. Maybe Im wrong on this one.

code2^16 explained quite nicely all those different categories who might end up in normal dungeons. Actually, got me pinned exactly, too. I'm in that category "experienced players, but leveling a character with a RND, so that character doesn't yet have a proper gear and skills." (Or I might be low on transmutes.)

But yeah, the expectation is that in normal dungeons in a random group, players are not necessarily experienced. It's great when the other 3 are veterans looking for transmutes, too. But most of the time that is not the case. If you were to compare nN-C to some other dungeon, what would that be? Any other normal dungeon? No? That is the point of this thread.

I would compare nN-C to some easier new DLC dungeon's standard veteran. Like Exiled Redoubt or Oathsworn Pit on veteran are quite on par with normal Naj-Caldeesh. That's the issue. I like the challenge, you like the challenge, code likes the challenge, and that's why there's veteran and veteran hard modes for us. But many newer players may not enjoy the difficulty. More casual players may not enjoy. That's why normal difficulty exists and the normal difficulty should be consistent. Sure, slightly difficult for newer dungeons but not that much more difficult that it starts to compare to veteran dungeons.

This thread was never about "I couldn't do this so nerf it" and more about "everything else on normal difficulty is completed with normal effort, except this one dungeon where you have to put veteran effort into so players keep leaving the group and the dungeon so now no one can complete it."