Update 50 and Accessibility

BagOfBadgers · April 20

Prionyx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The new update nerfs a number of more accessible play styles and builds. Many of those things already underperform compared to other, more difficult setups. I have no problem with that but builds should not be nerfed when they aren't causing problems just to fix a number on a spreadsheet.

I'm moreso commenting on things like Oakensoul and Pet Builds. But even the decision to nerf builds with flat damage increases play into this, although not as much.

When you make it so there is no room to grow in certain builds, players who need these builds can't access certain content. Everyone should be able to grow into regular vet content (hard modes and achievements already exist for the best of the best) and not be stuck purely doing roleplay content that you could do without a build at all.

Why are you all talking about "accessibility"? How many players that ACTUALLY NEED accessibility features(and not just lazy people) have you personally met? I've spent over 15000 hours in this game and I've met just a few. People who need accessibility features are less than 0.1%. Why should 99.9% constantly suffer because of 0.1%? Jesus even if these builds were nerfed by 50% it would still be enough for 99.9% of the content. "Accessibility" builds should not perform better than regular builds that requiere skill to play. There are accessibility features in other games, for example there is a damage helper or smth in wow which pressed damage skills for you, which is basically the same thing as arcanist, but it presses them slowly and you'd be better of actually playing if you want efficiency. It's not the case with arcanist builds, they take no skill to play and are better than regular builds. They need a hard nerf, not just these sets pity nerfs

On average 16% of the population has a disability and I would say at least 10% of the people I run stuff with have an issue with the combat due to disabilities. I want to be able to play to a reasonable level, I don't expect to parse as much a the top players but being in the ball park would be nice.

At the moment with my Oaken Arc & Oaken Sorc I parse about 86-87k, is that too much for your liking? What should my limit be, 40/50/60/70/80 or more? I have found that the true top players I run with, you know score pushers/Tri's, had no issue with One bar HA's hitting like they did, as it meant there were more players to run with and who cared that AS+2 was easy, one Trial, just one Trial!

As a disabled player if I can reach 86-87k what could you as an able person do, much more I would offer.

I have to use adaptations in life, ramps, lifts, tools etc, etc, to do everyday things and I don't care that the more able use them and can do things faster than me while using them, and it would be very odd if these things were only accessible to the people that need them, example a parent with a child in a buggy (insert regional variant here) can get down a ramp faster than me, so because of that they have to be limited to match my speed, can you see how daft that would be? The more accessibility (easy DPS) in life the better for everyone.

I have to use a modded Game Pad to play, so what's acceptable DPS to meet your standard?

PS. Keyboard and Mouse are not my friends.

Freelancer_ESO · April 20

mocap wrote: »

Nerfs like these don't align with the "play the way you want" philosophy. HA builds have always been a niche PvE thing, designed for players with disabilities or for solo vet DLC clears, as strange as it may sound.

I think that would depend a bit on how you define the philosophy.

I've been running heavy attack/beam builds on many of my characters that do stuff with other people not because I want to run them but, because they tend to be more effective at my level of skill.

The prior setup also made the game a bit more complicated and harder to understand.

ESO is already harder than many of the other games I've played to understand what is going on under the hood and having a % damage done to monsters that calculates differently than damage done and also isn't listed on the stat page isn't great.

I think the spreadsheet gets too much criticism at times because many of the issues in balance are with items that aren't following the spreadsheet.

Prionyx · April 20

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The new update nerfs a number of more accessible play styles and builds. Many of those things already underperform compared to other, more difficult setups. I have no problem with that but builds should not be nerfed when they aren't causing problems just to fix a number on a spreadsheet.

I'm moreso commenting on things like Oakensoul and Pet Builds. But even the decision to nerf builds with flat damage increases play into this, although not as much.

When you make it so there is no room to grow in certain builds, players who need these builds can't access certain content. Everyone should be able to grow into regular vet content (hard modes and achievements already exist for the best of the best) and not be stuck purely doing roleplay content that you could do without a build at all.

Why are you all talking about "accessibility"? How many players that ACTUALLY NEED accessibility features(and not just lazy people) have you personally met? I've spent over 15000 hours in this game and I've met just a few. People who need accessibility features are less than 0.1%. Why should 99.9% constantly suffer because of 0.1%? Jesus even if these builds were nerfed by 50% it would still be enough for 99.9% of the content. "Accessibility" builds should not perform better than regular builds that requiere skill to play. There are accessibility features in other games, for example there is a damage helper or smth in wow which pressed damage skills for you, which is basically the same thing as arcanist, but it presses them slowly and you'd be better of actually playing if you want efficiency. It's not the case with arcanist builds, they take no skill to play and are better than regular builds. They need a hard nerf, not just these sets pity nerfs

On average 16% of the population has a disability and I would say at least 10% of the people I run stuff with have an issue with the combat due to disabilities. I want to be able to play to a reasonable level, I don't expect to parse as much a the top players but being in the ball park would be nice.

At the moment with my Oaken Arc & Oaken Sorc I parse about 86-87k, is that too much for your liking? What should my limit be, 40/50/60/70/80 or more? I have found that the true top players I run with, you know score pushers/Tri's, had no issue with One bar HA's hitting like they did, as it meant there were more players to run with and who cared that AS+2 was easy, one Trial, just one Trial!

As a disabled player if I can reach 86-87k what could you as an able person do, much more I would offer.

I have to use adaptations in life, ramps, lifts, tools etc, etc, to do everyday things and I don't care that the more able use them and can do things faster than me while using them, and it would be very odd if these things were only accessible to the people that need them, example a parent with a child in a buggy (insert regional variant here) can get down a ramp faster than me, so because of that they have to be limited to match my speed, can you see how daft that would be? The more accessibility (easy DPS) in life the better for everyone.

I have to use a modded Game Pad to play, so what's acceptable DPS to meet your standard?

PS. Keyboard and Mouse are not my friends.

I'm not talking about heavy attack builds or something, I'm talking about beam builds(which takes no skill to play but deals way more damage than normal builds). In this accessibility build there is no difference if you have a disability or you are a highly skilled player, but it is a dominant playstyle because it's OP

Destai · April 20

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. The team has seen the feedback here and this thread along with others has been shared. We fixed a handful of bonus effects that were incorrectly multiplicative instead of additive, which resulted in their power being reduced. This was covered in the Update 50 PTS patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8455634/#Comment_8455634

We know this doesn't address all of the concerns here, but the team is looking at your feedback to better address the commentary here. There is no intention to shut out accessibility or accessibility options for combat. We are keeping an eye on threads like this and adjust once we get more data and feedback.

When you guys started on U35, the combat team wanted more data too. Several years later, it's still maligned because the core idea was flawed and it devasted progression communities as a result.

It's the same thing here.

These kinds of decisions having lasting impacts. ESO will - and ESO has - lost players because you keep reducing HA playstyles. It's not about getting more data, it's about leaving the playstyles people love - and need - alone.

Please, stop being so data focused. Combat changes should be focused on QoL, rewarding experimentation, and getting more people into more content. Instead, there's a history of playstyles and sets being introduced only to be squashed several patches later. It's not fun guys.

Right now, the best thing the Combat Team could do is get on stream and crunch numbers on their ideas. Players are reporting a pretty big dip in HA power, and you're asking for more data. Join the conversation. Show us how the changes are going to increase accessibility. If ZOS can't articulate how combat changes actually HELP people, then they'll lose control of the narrative and lose players as a result.

allochthons · April 20

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We know this doesn't address all of the concerns here, but the team is looking at your feedback to better address the commentary here. There is no intention to shut out accessibility or accessibility options for combat. We are keeping an eye on threads like this and adjust once we get more data and feedback.

I'm glad this feedback is being seen.

I don't think anyone who uses accessibility builds for accessibility wants Oakensoul (or similar mythics), HA, or 1-bar builds to be META, or S-tier. But knocking them down 10-15K DPS, from their already weak position, really is enough to lock people out of some of the content they can now access.

CalamityCat · April 20

Prionyx wrote: »

Why are you all talking about "accessibility"? How many players that ACTUALLY NEED accessibility features(and not just lazy people) have you personally met? I've spent over 15000 hours in this game and I've met just a few. People who need accessibility features are less than 0.1%. Why should 99.9% constantly suffer because of 0.1%? Jesus even if these builds were nerfed by 50% it would still be enough for 99.9% of the content. "Accessibility" builds should not perform better than regular builds that requiere skill to play. There are accessibility features in other games, for example there is a damage helper or smth in wow which pressed damage skills for you, which is basically the same thing as arcanist, but it presses them slowly and you'd be better of actually playing if you want efficiency. It's not the case with arcanist builds, they take no skill to play and are better than regular builds. They need a hard nerf, not just these sets pity nerfs

Who are you to decide who deserves an "accessible" build and what choices they should have?

I can assure you, you don't really know how many disabled players you've met. It's not something everyone is going to announce. People sometimes game to get away from their RL issues and enjoy playing and being treated like everyone else.

I don't like the arcanist class at all, but there should always be different ways to play the game. Not only for accessibility, but also choice. The whole 2 bar key mashing "skill" isn't good for your hands over extended periods. So we absolutely shouldn't be pushing players to do that anyway IMHO.

The focus on maxing numbers and rotation in ESO is partly why we've ended up with high DPS beam builds. Because lower damage builds will get you kicked from some groups. Now if the player gets an easier build until they learn to weave better, other players get in a tizzy because they achieve higher damage. Maybe we should stop judging players on how they get the DPS and just focus on our own contribution in the group.

BagOfBadgers · April 20

Prionyx wrote: »

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The new update nerfs a number of more accessible play styles and builds. Many of those things already underperform compared to other, more difficult setups. I have no problem with that but builds should not be nerfed when they aren't causing problems just to fix a number on a spreadsheet.

I'm moreso commenting on things like Oakensoul and Pet Builds. But even the decision to nerf builds with flat damage increases play into this, although not as much.

When you make it so there is no room to grow in certain builds, players who need these builds can't access certain content. Everyone should be able to grow into regular vet content (hard modes and achievements already exist for the best of the best) and not be stuck purely doing roleplay content that you could do without a build at all.

Why are you all talking about "accessibility"? How many players that ACTUALLY NEED accessibility features(and not just lazy people) have you personally met? I've spent over 15000 hours in this game and I've met just a few. People who need accessibility features are less than 0.1%. Why should 99.9% constantly suffer because of 0.1%? Jesus even if these builds were nerfed by 50% it would still be enough for 99.9% of the content. "Accessibility" builds should not perform better than regular builds that requiere skill to play. There are accessibility features in other games, for example there is a damage helper or smth in wow which pressed damage skills for you, which is basically the same thing as arcanist, but it presses them slowly and you'd be better of actually playing if you want efficiency. It's not the case with arcanist builds, they take no skill to play and are better than regular builds. They need a hard nerf, not just these sets pity nerfs

On average 16% of the population has a disability and I would say at least 10% of the people I run stuff with have an issue with the combat due to disabilities. I want to be able to play to a reasonable level, I don't expect to parse as much a the top players but being in the ball park would be nice.

At the moment with my Oaken Arc & Oaken Sorc I parse about 86-87k, is that too much for your liking? What should my limit be, 40/50/60/70/80 or more? I have found that the true top players I run with, you know score pushers/Tri's, had no issue with One bar HA's hitting like they did, as it meant there were more players to run with and who cared that AS+2 was easy, one Trial, just one Trial!

As a disabled player if I can reach 86-87k what could you as an able person do, much more I would offer.

I have to use adaptations in life, ramps, lifts, tools etc, etc, to do everyday things and I don't care that the more able use them and can do things faster than me while using them, and it would be very odd if these things were only accessible to the people that need them, example a parent with a child in a buggy (insert regional variant here) can get down a ramp faster than me, so because of that they have to be limited to match my speed, can you see how daft that would be? The more accessibility (easy DPS) in life the better for everyone.

I have to use a modded Game Pad to play, so what's acceptable DPS to meet your standard?

PS. Keyboard and Mouse are not my friends.

I'm not talking about heavy attack builds or something, I'm talking about beam builds(which takes no skill to play but deals way more damage than normal builds). In this accessibility build there is no difference if you have a disability or you are a highly skilled player, but it is a dominant playstyle because it's OP

Did you miss that I play an Oaken Arc and that's getting nerfed. By the by, my Oaken Sorc used to do 97k single target and have all splashes on the HA. Now the sets have been nerfed, only one splash at the end of the HA, so a lot more. With the changes my Arc damage will go down, DOWN and often, when I run in pug and guild runs I am the top DPS and I have practiced to get the DPS I can do. Others on "better" builds do less than me, so is it a me problem, sets or a skill problem?

So are you happy that my DPS will go down. Yes/No will do, and agin what is acceptable DPS for a "easy" build, go on, put a number on it.

I don't expect an answer, but, hey I live in hope.

PeacefulAnarchy · April 20

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. The team has seen the feedback here and this thread along with others has been shared. We fixed a handful of bonus effects that were incorrectly multiplicative instead of additive, which resulted in their power being reduced. This was covered in the Update 50 PTS patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8455634/#Comment_8455634

We know this doesn't address all of the concerns here, but the team is looking at your feedback to better address the commentary here. There is no intention to shut out accessibility or accessibility options for combat. We are keeping an eye on threads like this and adjust once we get more data and feedback.

Empower has been multiplicative since oakensoul released. Its power, and HA power in general, has been changed and balanced several times based on it being multiplicative and the resulting damage. This isn't a one patch issue that slipped under the radar, it was a choice that was made intentionally and balanced around the resulting power.

I have no issue with you all deciding that you want to change where the calculation is whether for balance reasons or coding issues or what have you. But in doing this change it significantly nerfs the value of empower for everyone using it. Even with the most basic buffs it is a significant 10-30% reduction in power. You could have adjusted empower to be 100% at the same time, and it still would be a nerf to optimized HA builds, but at least would have been roughly equivalent for oakensoul builds. To also be doing this in a patch where most other builds were significantly buffed is double blow and puts these builds now well behind.

When oakensoul released HA builds could parse 90-100k and the tip top parses were in the 130s. A 20-30% penalty for an easier build was about right. Now a similar build still does 90-100k but the top parses are approaching 200. Even sweaty two bar HA builds, which are not at all easy to play, just different to play, are probably going to be in the 120-130 range. This is a big gap.

Malprave · April 20

I have another issue with these nerfs. The constant nerfing of sets leaving only a handful that work is a real pain. You can’t have build diversity if things that work are constantly thrown in the trash can or whatever damage calculation bucket that is where nothing works. Don’t you guys at Zos get sick of working on all these sets with cool effects and animations only to have nobody use them?!

YandereGirlfriend · April 20

I think that it is important to separate out HA and Empower from talk about sets.

Sets are relatively cheap and completely replaceable. But there is no existing alternative to Empower for a HA build. And HA build have more or less been canonized as accessibility playstyles. So the PTS change to Empower is important and needs to be compensated for by buffing up the value of Empower to at least equal what it was before if not maybe a little bit more.

But something like Tide-Born. Leave it where it is. It is completely replaceable and also odious from a design and balance point of view. A basic Crafted set that you can make after only 48 hours after starting the game for the first time should never, ever be displacing trial sets, IA sets, DLC dungeon sets, etc. in terms of power granted. Which is exactly what it does. If you want end-game power then you should be expected to put in the work. Not just Craft or buy something on the Guild Traders.

Prionyx · April 20

CalamityCat wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Why are you all talking about "accessibility"? How many players that ACTUALLY NEED accessibility features(and not just lazy people) have you personally met? I've spent over 15000 hours in this game and I've met just a few. People who need accessibility features are less than 0.1%. Why should 99.9% constantly suffer because of 0.1%? Jesus even if these builds were nerfed by 50% it would still be enough for 99.9% of the content. "Accessibility" builds should not perform better than regular builds that requiere skill to play. There are accessibility features in other games, for example there is a damage helper or smth in wow which pressed damage skills for you, which is basically the same thing as arcanist, but it presses them slowly and you'd be better of actually playing if you want efficiency. It's not the case with arcanist builds, they take no skill to play and are better than regular builds. They need a hard nerf, not just these sets pity nerfs

Who are you to decide who deserves an "accessible" build and what choices they should have?

Who are you to decide that comfort of 99% of the players doesn't matter?

Prionyx · April 20

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The new update nerfs a number of more accessible play styles and builds. Many of those things already underperform compared to other, more difficult setups. I have no problem with that but builds should not be nerfed when they aren't causing problems just to fix a number on a spreadsheet.

I'm moreso commenting on things like Oakensoul and Pet Builds. But even the decision to nerf builds with flat damage increases play into this, although not as much.

When you make it so there is no room to grow in certain builds, players who need these builds can't access certain content. Everyone should be able to grow into regular vet content (hard modes and achievements already exist for the best of the best) and not be stuck purely doing roleplay content that you could do without a build at all.

Why are you all talking about "accessibility"? How many players that ACTUALLY NEED accessibility features(and not just lazy people) have you personally met? I've spent over 15000 hours in this game and I've met just a few. People who need accessibility features are less than 0.1%. Why should 99.9% constantly suffer because of 0.1%? Jesus even if these builds were nerfed by 50% it would still be enough for 99.9% of the content. "Accessibility" builds should not perform better than regular builds that requiere skill to play. There are accessibility features in other games, for example there is a damage helper or smth in wow which pressed damage skills for you, which is basically the same thing as arcanist, but it presses them slowly and you'd be better of actually playing if you want efficiency. It's not the case with arcanist builds, they take no skill to play and are better than regular builds. They need a hard nerf, not just these sets pity nerfs

On average 16% of the population has a disability and I would say at least 10% of the people I run stuff with have an issue with the combat due to disabilities. I want to be able to play to a reasonable level, I don't expect to parse as much a the top players but being in the ball park would be nice.

At the moment with my Oaken Arc & Oaken Sorc I parse about 86-87k, is that too much for your liking? What should my limit be, 40/50/60/70/80 or more? I have found that the true top players I run with, you know score pushers/Tri's, had no issue with One bar HA's hitting like they did, as it meant there were more players to run with and who cared that AS+2 was easy, one Trial, just one Trial!

As a disabled player if I can reach 86-87k what could you as an able person do, much more I would offer.

I have to use adaptations in life, ramps, lifts, tools etc, etc, to do everyday things and I don't care that the more able use them and can do things faster than me while using them, and it would be very odd if these things were only accessible to the people that need them, example a parent with a child in a buggy (insert regional variant here) can get down a ramp faster than me, so because of that they have to be limited to match my speed, can you see how daft that would be? The more accessibility (easy DPS) in life the better for everyone.

I have to use a modded Game Pad to play, so what's acceptable DPS to meet your standard?

PS. Keyboard and Mouse are not my friends.

I'm not talking about heavy attack builds or something, I'm talking about beam builds(which takes no skill to play but deals way more damage than normal builds). In this accessibility build there is no difference if you have a disability or you are a highly skilled player, but it is a dominant playstyle because it's OP

Did you miss that I play an Oaken Arc and that's getting nerfed. By the by, my Oaken Sorc used to do 97k single target and have all splashes on the HA. Now the sets have been nerfed, only one splash at the end of the HA, so a lot more. With the changes my Arc damage will go down, DOWN and often, when I run in pug and guild runs I am the top DPS and I have practiced to get the DPS I can do. Others on "better" builds do less than me, so is it a me problem, sets or a skill problem?

So are you happy that my DPS will go down. Yes/No will do, and agin what is acceptable DPS for a "easy" build, go on, put a number on it.

I don't expect an answer, but, hey I live in hope.

If arcanist is getting nerfed then I'm sure as hell happy, so yes. Beam build takes no skill to play whatsoever yet it deals way more damage than normal builds, it's a disaster of game design

Prionyx · April 20

CalamityCat wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Why are you all talking about "accessibility"? How many players that ACTUALLY NEED accessibility features(and not just lazy people) have you personally met? I've spent over 15000 hours in this game and I've met just a few. People who need accessibility features are less than 0.1%. Why should 99.9% constantly suffer because of 0.1%? Jesus even if these builds were nerfed by 50% it would still be enough for 99.9% of the content. "Accessibility" builds should not perform better than regular builds that requiere skill to play. There are accessibility features in other games, for example there is a damage helper or smth in wow which pressed damage skills for you, which is basically the same thing as arcanist, but it presses them slowly and you'd be better of actually playing if you want efficiency. It's not the case with arcanist builds, they take no skill to play and are better than regular builds. They need a hard nerf, not just these sets pity nerfs

I don't like the arcanist class at all, but there should always be different ways to play the game. Not only for accessibility, but also choice. The whole 2 bar key mashing "skill" isn't good for your hands over extended periods. So we absolutely shouldn't be pushing players to do that anyway IMHO.

"Mashing"? What are you talking about, you only have 5 buttons for skills. That's nothing, if anything it greatly improves manual dexterity and multitasking(surely did for me). And as I said It's not like we are in WOW where you have 30-50 buttons for skills and macros, you literally have just 5 buttons. No way you're getting some problems unless you are parsing for 10+ hours each day or something

spartaxoxo · April 20

Repetitive stress injuries can be aggravated by ESO's style of weaving. In general, that style of gameplay is not the best for hand health when done for extended periods and RSIs are common in gamers.

ESO_player123 · April 20

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think that it is important to separate out HA and Empower from talk about sets.

Sets are relatively cheap and completely replaceable. But there is no existing alternative to Empower for a HA build. And HA build have more or less been canonized as accessibility playstyles. So the PTS change to Empower is important and needs to be compensated for by buffing up the value of Empower to at least equal what it was before if not maybe a little bit more.

But something like Tide-Born. Leave it where it is. It is completely replaceable and also odious from a design and balance point of view. A basic Crafted set that you can make after only 48 hours after starting the game for the first time should never, ever be displacing trial sets, IA sets, DLC dungeon sets, etc. in terms of power granted. Which is exactly what it does. If you want end-game power then you should be expected to put in the work. Not just Craft or buy something on the Guild Traders.

I completely agree. Why nerf Empower all of a sudden when it was a part of HA builds from the get go?

allochthons · April 20

I've disengaged, and blocked the anti-accessibility llort. There is no upside to continuing to engage with them.

Prionyx · April 20

allochthons wrote: »

I've disengaged, and blocked the anti-accessibility llort. There is no upside to continuing to engage with them.

Anti-accessibility. Lol. How did you come to this conclusion?

CalamityCat · April 20

Prionyx wrote: »

Who are you to decide that comfort of 99% of the players doesn't matter?

Who are these imaginary 99% of players and exactly how are they suffering discomfort because there are more accessible builds in ESO?

"Mashing"? What are you talking about, you only have 5 buttons for skills. That's nothing, if anything it greatly improves manual dexterity and multitasking(surely did for me). And as I said It's not like we are in WOW where you have 30-50 buttons for skills and macros, you literally have just 5 buttons. No way you're getting some problems unless you are parsing for 10+ hours each day or something

I can type at speed and I make stuff by hand for a living, so you can skip the patronising talk about keyboard skills or dexterity lol.

I mentioned hand problems because RSI is a real thing, and it doesn't need 10 hours a day parsing to happen. It has nothing to do with how many macros or skill buttons you use, it's the repetitive movements you're doing for extended periods of time. The clue's in the name. You're hitting the same keys over and over for hours. Faster more intensive rotation = more strain. Simple as that. It might be gaming, but it's very similar to spending hours at work typing at speed.

I know one ESO player who had wrist surgery and several in my trials guild have had a milder more chronic RSI. So it can absolutely affect ESO players.

RandomKodiak · April 20

As on other forum posts about this the gear issue will be annoying for a bit but is fairly easily gotten around. I don't like HA builds myself but know of at least three people in my main guild and numerous others I've met over the last 8 or so years that will have to leave the game or never do Vet content again if the Empower nerf goes through. Struggling to get 100k right now on a dummy parse and being told that next patch (with no changes) you're only going to be able to do 84k sucks and is making people think about leaving. All of these people I'm talking about have bad CT or arthritis and cannot do the more complicated rotations or LA weave. People like these are not asking to be Meta they are asking to still play the game they love and not be forgotten or left out of most group content.

tsaescishoeshiner · April 21

Because they made Empower stack less favorably and ultimatey reduced the damage, they should buff it to keep the power similar to on Live, where Empower isn't particularly overpowered or any type of concern.

They often do apply make-up buffs when backend reworks indirectly nerf certain effects.

So I'm not sure why that wasn't attempted this time—although now they have more data as to how much the rework impacted damage numbers, they could have communicated that so players didn't feel as discouraged.

DeathStalker · April 21

They don't care about those of us with limitations like me. Only their streamers and top players. I have nerve damage in my primary hand, and it shakes uncontrollably. Things like this build up and are so discouraging. Death by a thousand paper cuts.

spartaxoxo · April 21

DeathStalker wrote: »

Things like this build up and are so discouraging. Death by a thousand paper cuts.

Yes, exactly. This is how it's been for heavy attack builds and Pet Builds (and lets face it there's also a lot of players that overlap between these).

At some point, ZOS decided that Pet Sorcs DPS didn't matter. Around the same time that they decided the class set for Daedric Summoning should punish summoners for using the summoning line to appease users that were not summoners. The only class set that does this. If any set should reward a player for using Daedric summons it the Daedric summoning set. The way they designed this set actually low-key feels like there's a disrespect of pet Sorcs. Like they wish the class never had permanent pets to begin with.

Completely ignoring these aren't just any DPS builds but also builds that many of us use to gain accessibility to vet content for those among us who can't do the 2 bar builds. Even some of us who don't have disabilities, those repetitive moments can be painful if done for prolonged periods. My hands often badly hurt if I play my 2 bar stuff too hard too long. I work from home and do all my work on a computer and I game. RSIs are something I have to really be careful of and have experienced in the past. When it's like that, the less buttons I have to push, the better.

I honestly wish there was a toggle to heavy attacks that let me push the button once and it would keep it held down until I tapped it again. Wish the same thing for sprint.

Since then accessibility builds have been whittled away little by little but at least they still somewhat worked. With the changes on the PTS, I'll probably end up shelving my heavy attack build. And I don't know that I'll bother at all if I have to do so because it isn't just one nerf in one update. The relative power has went down little by little every patch and now it's in the straw that broke the camel's back territory.

Malprave · April 21

I don’t use heavy attack builds but I’m in complete sympathy with those that do on this issue. Zos, I have no idea what you were thinking here. And frankly, I’m disgusted by the amount of pushback against those protesting the change.

twisttop138 · April 21

coop500 wrote: »

Yeah I was sad to see this too, like what the heck? Nobody was complaining about these builds and effects and sets working too well. Even if the nerf is 'minor' to 'solve a bug' it still hurt it and needlessly too.

Very much agree. In my main guild, a social guild, we have multiple weekly rosters with no requirements that focus on vet teaching. Dungeons twice and trials twice a week. Many of the players in a casual social guild, as you may imagine, are not high level trifecta players. To paraphrase your response in a different thread, players with mismatched gear, low CP, no build and no real idea about this stuff. Just a desire to learn. These gear sets and builds are exactly the ones we recommend to them. Ive run vSE more times then I care to admit to get people this gear. Crafted dozens of sets of tideborn. I'm not a HA guy but we do have fantastic HA players that help the ones that wanna stick to that. To see this stuff nerfed, regardless of if it's fixing an error, or if people are sick of the Arcanist meta, sucks. To see folks so callously disregard it also is a bummer. I've seen some pretty crappy posts around. Sure, it's not huge. No, it won't effect me very much. I have tons of gear sets that I swap around to depending on fights like a lot of folks here. But we're the minority.

SolarRune · April 21

Looking at the patch notes this has not been changed because of overperformance or too much damage being caused, its because how they were calculated was wrong.

As the patchnotes do not mention the change being related to damage output, shouldn't all items where this was wrong just be adjusted to minimise the difference between where it is now and where it is after the change in application? Surely in this new era of openness if it was about damage the developer note would say so.

RaptorRodeoGod · April 21

SolarRune wrote: »

Looking at the patch notes this has not been changed because of overperformance or too much damage being caused, its because how they were calculated was wrong.

As the patchnotes do not mention the change being related to damage output, shouldn't all items where this was wrong just be adjusted to minimise the difference between where it is now and where it is after the change in application? Surely in this new era of openness if it was about damage the developer note would say so.

When fixing set bugs like this in the past, the numbers haven't often gotten adjusted to compensate. Hopefully with the new leadership, that trend can change towards the positive direction

YandereGirlfriend · April 21

SolarRune wrote: »

Looking at the patch notes this has not been changed because of overperformance or too much damage being caused, its because how they were calculated was wrong.

As the patchnotes do not mention the change being related to damage output, shouldn't all items where this was wrong just be adjusted to minimise the difference between where it is now and where it is after the change in application? Surely in this new era of openness if it was about damage the developer note would say so.

Those sets were not intended to be performing as strongly as they were relative to other sets. It is like giving a set 400 Weapon Damage but in practice it provides 600 Weapon Damage due to some obscure bug. When you fix the bug, you would not at the same time be like, "Oh, but we're going to bump that back up to 600 Weapon Damage because that's what people got used to."

Personally, I think that it was GROSS that Tide-Born, a low-tier Crafted set that you can either just buy after 10 minutes in-game on a Level 1 character or make for yourself on Day 2, was out-shining most DLC trial sets. That is just dumb. Better sets should come from harder content. Spending gold to just buy end-game gear is the complete antithesis of that.

Sordidfairytale · April 21

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Those sets were not intended to be performing as strongly as they were relative to other sets. It is like giving a set 400 Weapon Damage but in practice it provides 600 Weapon Damage due to some obscure bug. When you fix the bug, you would not at the same time be like, "Oh, but we're going to bump that back up to 600 Weapon Damage because that's what people got used to."

Agree with you on Tide-born. However, Empower was updated to only apply to monsters in 2022 and adjusted again in 2023. So it wasn't a mistake that was now corrected, it was a decision.

It would make a lot more sense if the reasoning behind that decision were made clear. It's not like these builds were dominating.

YandereGirlfriend · April 21

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Those sets were not intended to be performing as strongly as they were relative to other sets. It is like giving a set 400 Weapon Damage but in practice it provides 600 Weapon Damage due to some obscure bug. When you fix the bug, you would not at the same time be like, "Oh, but we're going to bump that back up to 600 Weapon Damage because that's what people got used to."

Agree with you on Tide-born. However, Empower was updated to only apply to monsters in 2022 and adjusted again in 2023. So it wasn't a mistake that was now corrected, it was a decision.

It would make a lot more sense if the reasoning behind that decision were made clear. It's not like these builds were dominating.

Definitely.

I have a post above where I mention that the sets should be left as they are with the change but Empower and Born From Shadow should be buffed back up to at least where they were, if not even a bit higher.

A player can always change out their set for an alternative. But there is no alternative to Empower for a HA build.

Sordidfairytale · April 21

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Those sets were not intended to be performing as strongly as they were relative to other sets. It is like giving a set 400 Weapon Damage but in practice it provides 600 Weapon Damage due to some obscure bug. When you fix the bug, you would not at the same time be like, "Oh, but we're going to bump that back up to 600 Weapon Damage because that's what people got used to."

Agree with you on Tide-born. However, Empower was updated to only apply to monsters in 2022 and adjusted again in 2023. So it wasn't a mistake that was now corrected, it was a decision.

It would make a lot more sense if the reasoning behind that decision were made clear. It's not like these builds were dominating.

Definitely.

I have a post above where I mention that the sets should be left as they are with the change but Empower and Born From Shadow should be buffed back up to at least where they were, if not even a bit higher.

A player can always change out their set for an alternative. But there is no alternative to Empower for a HA build.

Nice, I missed that. And I agree, because if this was an error that was never fully realized until recently when the combat team went picking through the code, then Empower should go back to 80% for Heavy Attacks if it's going to remain in the damage calculation as is. Because that is why it was reduced to 70% in the first place? Because at 80% it was hitting too hard? @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_Kevin